Morning all,
I recently sold my old smartphone on eBay. It was in perfect working order, being only five months old, with no damage whatsoever. However, the buyer contacted me nearly a week later to inform me that there was a problem with the screen on the phone and to ask for a full refund. I messaged him back stating that, as the phone left me in perfect condition and he had waited nearly a week after delivery (I sent in Special Delivery so have proof of when it arrived) I would not be issuing a refund. I also stated in the listing that there would be no returns allowed.
He has since escalated the case to eBay's Customer Services Team who have decreed that I have to issue him with a full refund once I receive the phone. I am extremely angry about this, not least because I have a feedback score of 100% on 239 transactions, whereas he is new to eBay and doesn't have a feedback score at all.
There appears to be absolutely nothing I can do about this. My PayPal account has already been debited with the amount in question, as a 'hold' transaction. Once I have taken delivery of the phone, one of the cards registered to my account will be debited.
Is there anything I can do about this? I feel utterly stitched up my eBay.
Thanks in advance.
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Hi Badwolf. I'm afraid that I've heard of these sort of problems before, where what the seller says goes as far as Ebay is concerned irrespective of the facts of the matter. I'm a long-term Ebay buyer and seller, but luckily I've never had any problems. I would suggest a quick google to find out how other sellers have tackled this problem. Perhaps there is an escalation process within Ebay for you to take it to a higher level?
Unfortunately, at the end of the day it's just your word against his, and I would guess that your chances of coming through unscathed are slim. However, if he gves you negative feedback you could just respond to it with a factual response so that future potential buyers can see that it's a one-off. We have a similar problem with our holiday apartment, sometimes we get bizarre feedback posted on the hosting website which we have no opportunity to respond to. If it's just a one-off, and the rest of your feedback is OK, I think people ignore the odd one that bucks the trend.
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Just been to the page that Dog suggested, and evenually got to this page community.ebay.co.uk/support-category/Answer-Centre/1900000007 , look at item 4 on this list of search results for the phrase "buyer falsely claims item was faulty"
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Just been to the page that Dog suggested, and evenually got to this page community.ebay.co.uk/support-category/Answer-Centre/1900000007 , look at item 4 on this list of search results for the phrase "buyer falsely claims item was faulty"
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Would there be any value in my refusing delivery of the returned phone? Or would eBay just take the money anyway? I really can't afford to lose the money as I sold the phone to pay for a few days away so the money from the sale has already been spent.
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I'm a bit puzzled about how PayPal can legally suck the money back out of your account for this. Technically if your PayPal account shows a negative balance they've lent you the money, and so fall under the FSA regulations.
You never signed a credit agreement with PayPal, and if you inform them that the debt is in dispute they're on very thin ground if they try to take the money without your permission or send in debt collectors.
Stop the card, wait to see if you actually get the phone back (I bet you won't), then report the buyer to the police for theft and ask PayPal to take you to Court for the money. If they send debt collectors after this, you might want to report both PayPal and the debt collectors to the police too.
Worst case? You have a day in Court, lose, and have to pay minor costs.
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>>Stop the card, wait to see if you actually get the phone back (I bet you won't)<<
+1, sadly.
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I documented a not dissimilar issue here or in the other place a few years back, and ended up with all kinds of unpleasant threats from eBay which, wishing to preserve my credit rating (fwiw) eventually made me give up the fight an lose the dosh. I involved the ombudsman but they were actually pretty useless.
Mine was a Red Letter Day, about £200 worth, sold and delivered about 4 months prior to them going bust. Once it was delivered I chucked the proof of delivery. Red Letter Day went bust, buyer (rightly) claimed off her credit card, but instant recharge to eBay/Paypal was on grounds of Goods Not Received, and I couldn't prove otherwise, despite an email from the purchaser confirming receipt. I fellt royallu done over.
Also more recently I sold a few surplus USB drives, tested them all before shipping. The buyer of the cheapest contacted me to say it wasn't working on arrival, so I just refunded him and let him keep it. The sale price wasn't that much and the return postage would have eaten up any profit - and I'm sure he would have made it not work before returning it... so I never knew whether that was genuine or not.
I'm reasonably happy to buy via eBay (with due care) but really dislike the whole selling experience - even the packing and going to the post office bit - so rarely do it.
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In spite of sellers providing eBay with all their income, including the mandatory acceptance of eBay owned Paypal, they have no loyalty to sellers in any way shape or form and will always accept a buyer's word over a seller's.
So far, over many years of buying and selling , albeit not a huge number of items, (though some have been some costly) I have not had problems. Lucky me!
The early years eBay experience as a seller was much more pleasant and in the case of a dispute, resolution was, I think, more fairly handled.
These days selling and buying on eBay is a big risk as there are so many crooks on both sides of the market. eBay do very little, if anything, to protect honest people.
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I sold a pair of kids school shoes size 10.5 nearly new and quoted postage at £3.50 they wanted it first class like in 2 days but never paid more so the box had to go and bubble wrap was used.
They didn't contact me to moan but escalated to a claim and wanted postage back as showed in some photos cracks in the shoes with her hand squeezing the sole over to show the cracks it will if you force it!!
Pay pal put a freeze on my account all of £12.50 you have no choice but to offer a partial or full refund the buyer wins.
Next time im off to a car boot sale to flog them i do buy from e bay have done for 6 years but as said above the selling experiance is nothing like it was.
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I've never used ebay but I do have considerable knowledge of other more traditional methods of retailing. The examples quoted above sadly don't surprise me at all. We have created a monster in the form of the aggressive, confrontational, self-righteous consumer attitudes which have been encouraged in recent years.
There seems now to be an ingrained public attitude that just because a transaction took place that in the event of a subsequent dispute the purchaser is the only party with rights either legal or moral.
We would do well to remind ourselves that transactions by definition involve more than one party and for them to be satisfactory, all involved need to play fair.
I can cite real examples of garments being returned and full refunds demanded after 9 years wear because "it's no longer taking a press". Yes you read that right, 9 years. Shoes being returned after 6 years wear because "the sole has worn through" and unfortunately the world weary retailer just taking it on the chin because they really just can't be bothered to have yet another argument with some belligerent twonk waving a copy of a Trading Standards leaflet at them.
The pendulum has, as it always will, swung too far.
Last edited by: Humph D'Bout on Sat 1 Jun 13 at 14:41
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>> The pendulum has, as it always will, swung too far.
>>
>>
>>
Fully agreed.
What really annoys me is when goods are returned that have obviously been deliberately broken by the customer who claims they were either delivered like that or they broke in use. As you say Humph, it just isn't worth the aggro or the bad mouthing that blights your reputation to do other than accept it and refund.
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Collection only is best then you meet them and see it pay cash no pay pal rubbish job sorted.
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I rarely sell on EBay now - I used to buy and sell quite a bit on there when it seemed you could get genuine bargains - seems expensive now, especially for books and CDs etc as Amazon Market Place is lot more reliable and generally cheaper. Been tyre kicking on the bike side of late....some interesting stuff there.
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I used to buy and sell on ebay, now it's just buy. Not because of any dramas, it's just not worth it. The volume of items seems to have gone, with it the price down. The price of sending items via Royal Mail has risen quickly this means to me it's not worth selling anything unless pretty high value.
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I'm not a great user except to look at stuff I might want to buy. If I find what I want, generally a trader, I contact them and do the deal direct if the option is there.
I had my Paypal account suspended years ago...no problems...they just wanted proof of my address and a copy of my bank statement. I wasn't even using my bank to run my account, just one dedicated credit card. Bank statement, yeah....stuff that !
I bid on a car, start price £200, and got it for that. Left message after message for the vendor but he never got back to me. After a couple of weeks I negged him and cancelled the deal.
He negged me back and called me a conman...how does that work ? Said his 'mam' had died, I often wonder how many mams he had who'd died ! Obviously wanted more dosh !
Ted
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>>What really annoys me is when goods are returned that have obviously been deliberately broken by the customer who claims they were either delivered like that or they broke in use.
Happens with monotonous regularity to retailers. Particularly with expensive "occasion" use garments and accessories such as wedding outfits, race day hats, dresses, shoes and handbags etc. They come trotting back on the Monday after the event like night follows day with "failed" straps or snapped heels or mysterious marks and tears in the fabric which of course were only "noticed" after the goods were taken away from the shop and which of course "ruined" the special day for the wearer and only a refund will begin to compensate for their trauma...
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>> I documented a not dissimilar issue here or in the other place a few years
>> back, and ended up with all kinds of unpleasant threats from eBay which, wishing to
>> preserve my credit rating (fwiw) eventually made me give up the fight an lose the
>> dosh.
What kind of threats were they Smokie?
I just wonder if eBay claim that they have the right to put something directly on your credit file, or whether they were just threatening court action.
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I gave in when the bailiffs letter was sent. The thing I remember about the whole affair was them saying that the buyer had claimed off her card, who automatically claim off PayPal and it's paid without question. I only had a very short period to counter the claim, which I extended by involving the ombudsman, but at the end of the day I could not provide proof that the item had been delivered.
In my case, I don't really think the buyer was dishonest. I did exchange emails with her and she accepted she'd reclaimed off her credit card (and we all would have done) but said the reasons were limited so she used Not Delivered. Whether that was strictly true I'll never know, and I also forget some of the facts now, but I felt I was bashing my head against a very solid brick wall. (I probably gave in too easily too, but the red letter day was a raffle prize so had only cost me £1...!!)
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I've bin a member of eBay for 10 years and have a feedback score of 214/100% but,
I've never sold anything in all that time, I've often thought about having a go but I can see too many pitfulls and I like a quiet life.
On the whole, my purchasing experience has been good to v/good, although someone in Harlow tried to stitch me up once over a Heath Ledger video that had obviously increased in value as he died a day or 2 after I 'won' the video.
So I said "look chum, I know where you are, I may live in Pastyland, but I'm from Bermondsey, and my mate Freddy is in your area next week and would like to pay you a visit".
I received a cheque a few days later.
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Did you make a note of the IMEI number (the phone's serial number) before you sold it? Any other details that would tell you whether it is your phone or another one?
I bet the phone you get sent back has a different one.
In short, he keeps the good one you sold him, he sends you back a broken phone and you potentially end up the loser of the deal.
A very similar case like this came up on Vectra-c.com a little while ago.
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>> Did you make a note of the IMEI number (the phone's serial number) before you
>> sold it?
Marvellous idea! Yes, I did and will be carefully checking the one that gets sent back. If the IMEI numbers differ then I shall be in touch with the police, never mind eBay and PayPal!
Thanks for that Dave :-)
Last edited by: Badwolf on Sat 1 Jun 13 at 18:24
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You can leave him negative feedback can't you?
It would give some satisfaction to warn other potential sellers what he is like?
I know he didn't have any feedback rating - perhaps that alone would be a warning to avoid buyers like that?
I bought a car on eBay once. He left me feedback saying "Great guy, great eBayer, a pleasure to deal with". So anyone else thinking of selling me anything can see that and judge accordingly.
On the other hand a seller who got shirty when I left feedback comment that it was a pity she hadn't actually tested a car clock when she claimed it was working was obviously really annoyed to have a 100% record blemished.
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Just sold two cameras on ebay. I carefully photographed each from all sides, with lens open and viewfinder showing a scene.. so no buyer could complain they were not working/cracked etc...
No problems..
They were oldish so the net revenues were less than £60.
The people I sold to seemed very pleasant.
Maybe my rating suggests I am honest? (500+ positive , no negatives).
I once had to refund a HDD which failed to survive the journey but at c£20 it was not exorbitant.
Edit
I never leave -ve feedback without contacting the other person first and giving them a chance to sort the problem..
Last edited by: madf on Sun 2 Jun 13 at 13:35
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>> You can leave him negative feedback can't you?
>> It would give some satisfaction to warn other potential sellers what he is like?
>>
Not anymore. Ebay no longer allow you to leave negative feedback against buyers......
Friend had a similar issue with ebay - buyer claimed that iphone was not as described and wanted to be compensated. Refused to return the item as "he needed it", so friend refused to refund / comprensate. Result was negative feedback as threatened by the buyer numerous times.
A scan I am sure
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Ebay now sucks. Market needs an alternative to Ebay.
I usually sell junk items on Ebay and insist on pay cash on collection.
On some cases I was forced to accept Paypal before posting the item but those are always a risk with dishonest buyers.
Interestingly, many used items are nowadays more expensive on Ebay compared to their retail price as new!
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I sold a mobile phone for £380 on eBay late last year. The buyer paid by PayPal, and I sent the phone by recorded delivery. I got the delivery proof online the next day, and mailed the buyer, via eBay to check all was OK. He responded yes, and left me positive feedback. I did likewise, banked the money and forgot all about it.
Fast forward three months, and I get an out of the blue call at work from my wife who was almost hysterical. PayPal's collections team had been on the phone to her (a/c in her name) demanding payment of the outstanding £400 negative balance on her account. It turns out the dishonest turd that had bought the phone had waited a few weeks, then claimed the payment to us for the phone was a fraudulent transaction. A well documented and oft-used scam according to Google.
PayPal had contacted us on one of the three email addresses they had on file (which wasn't valid, but the other two, the postal address and the phone number were). When we didn't respond, they automatically found in his favour and refunded his money, plus a £20 "admin fee".
They were rude, bullying and completely unsympathetic to my wife on the phone, and refused to budge at all. They threatened bailiffs, court and destruction of credit rating. They showed no interest that we were actually the victim of fraud, and after becoming quite abusive, they hung up.
They wouldn't speak to me as I wasn't the account holder, so I compiled an e-mail, attaching copies of the proof of postage, the tracking number, the proof of delivery, the crime reference number (we had reported it to the police by this point), the e-mail trail via eBay confirming the item was received OK, and the positive feedback. I also told them exactly what I thought of their scam-inviting policies, their failure to make reasonable efforts to contact us (one of four methods used), and their disgraceful attitude to their customers. Told them I would see THEM in court if they didn't reverse this decision immediately as they were clearly taking the word of a fraudster over the hard evidence of an honest seller.
A week later, I got a lengthy e-mail which waffled on about all sorts, but the bottom line was that they would reverse the payment as "a goodwill gesture".
The second this was done, I closed the eBay account, closed the PayPal account, and have had nothing to do with either of them since. Neither will I do so again.
Last edited by: DP on Tue 4 Jun 13 at 10:37
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My use of Ebay has changed recently as it's become one of three selling avenues for what I'm doing now.
It's absolutely true, as Humph comments re normal retail, that some buyers will walk all over sellers and it is a real fight if you stand up to Ebay/Paypal. Thankfully I see very few problems as the typical profile of my buyers is older enthusiasts/collectors who by and large are very pleased to have the things I sell.
I would hate to be involved with mobile phones, video games etc which are frequently bought by those that would scam you.
Fair enough if others have given up selling on Ebay because it seems too much trouble but compare it with any other marketplace then the benefits of an immense worldwide audience and high prices achieved still easily outweigh the potential negatives.
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is there a "local" Marketplace page on Facebook for your area? - most places, such as smaller towns where everyone knows each other do appear to have one! - The advantage of selling on there is goods are bought by local people, who collect in person, pay in cash, and can see that whatever you`re selling is in A1 condition before they purchase it, so no "come-backs". Also there are no advertising or listing charges.
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Couple of people have advised use of Facebook local marketplace. It is no use to me for what I'm doing but seems to work well for a £20 shed, cycle or lawnmower.
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Preloved works well.. As does Gumtree.
Cheaper than ebay as well - the SPs that is.
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Funnily enough just had a case opened this lunchtime against me for an item that sold for £5 with £2 postage. Message from the buyer attached to the case was quite aggressive.
In truth all it came down to was how you interpreted my description of a 40yr old item and what a buyers expectations of that item might be.
However politely offered a full refund inc his return postage costs and that has lightened his tone a great deal.
So going to cost me £9 to keep feedback intact which is peanuts. Yes I could have gone head to head with the guy over the description to the Nth degree but I would probably have lost and life's too short.
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Esme Fire, not bad for £40 img209.imageshack.us/img209/6341/p1000252a.jpg
We use it in the lounge just for the fire effect, the multi-fuel stove is in the other room, I'm going to burn anthracite stove nuts www.coals2u.co.uk/anthracite-small-nuts-50kg-open-sack this year instead of Taybrite.
I did toy with the idea of using wood, but I'd require soooooo much of it to do the job of 1 tonne of solid fuel,
plus somewhere to store season it etc. so I knocked that idea on the head.
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No FM2R will tell you that small businesses fail because they do not build in enough slack for contingencies.
In selling a single large item on eBay you are putting a lot of eggs into a single basket, and the tiny chance of a fraudulent transaction is very painful when you are the victim.
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Good point Mapmaker. My Ebay attitude is positive because I also add in very good value purchases made on Ebay to the overall experience so it's easier to shrug off the odd rare selling hassle.
It is somewhat ironic that for specialist individual items you can sell at top prices yet the routine and consumables are rock bottom to buy so it's win win.
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Well, I'm still waiting for the phone to be returned. The seller was instructed to send it back to me via a trackable method so I'd have thought it would have been here by now. If he has been stupid enough to return it by normal mail (ie untraceable) then I have a sneaky feeling that it may just get lost in the post...
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I spoke too soon. It arrived back yesterday by Special Delivery. It is the same phone that I sent him, however it now has scratches on the back that very definitely were not there when I sent it. I immediately contacted eBay about this, but just now I have received notification that they have refunded the buyer as he returned the phone to me as requested! I now have to appeal and supply proof that the phone wasn't scratched when I posted it.
I am even more annoyed than I was before. I have removed all payment methods from my PayPal account so if (more like when) eBay find against me, they won't be able to take their money. They can go swing for it as far as I am concerned.
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Despite my support for Ebay in the way I use it that is absolutely gutting. What sort of amount is involved?
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£110. Not a king's ransom, but a lot to me.
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Its not the amount BW, its the fact that scum get away with fleecing genuine people and seem to be assisted (aided and abetted) at every turn by ebay and their finance house.
I'd like to see swindlers forcibly have the name tattooed on their foreheads.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Sat 8 Jun 13 at 09:51
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Hmm £110 is plenty... I'd want to see that resolved.
While I work hard to avoid this sort of situation arising in the first place I'm quite uncomfortable with the "buyer is always" right attitude Ebay have taken as a policy.
I while back I bought something that was badly described but at the price and given any used purchase is a risk I didn't want to get into return/refund so just messaged the seller with a grumble and marked them down on their DSRs (stars) and that was the end of it as far as I was concerned.
Quite surprised a couple of days later to receive a message from Ebay inviting me to open a compalint case against the seller and seek a refund... I declined.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Sat 8 Jun 13 at 09:57
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>>Its not the amount BW, its the fact that scum get away with fleecing genuine people
That's why I threatened to send 'Freddie' round to where the clown lived in Harlow (mentioned further up el Fred)
I failed to mention that 'Freddie' was in fact our pet goldfish.
:}
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Might be worth getting it re-cased and selling it again - do you think the bad guy did that - if it's an Apple check have you checked its serial number..?
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>> however it now has scratches on the back that very definitely were not there when I sent it.
Too late now, but with things like this it's always best to take photos (with a date stamp if possible, or a newspaper in the background if not) before dispatching it. That way you have some proof it was in good condition prior to sale.
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When I sold some panniers for the Sprint on ebay the computer went on go slow as the final bids were going in and had everything been working properly I think I would have realised a a higher amount.
When I contacted them they informed me that it would have to be the buyer that contacted them.
How does that work then?
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I'm pleased to say that eBay have allowed my appeal and all recoupments against me are cancelled.
I'll never, ever sell on eBay again but, given the massive levels of protection they so obviously give to buyers, I will continue to purchase goods.
Thanks for all your comments and suggestions.
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Have Ebay allowed you to keep the phone he returned but not refund him?
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Yes, which is kind of a result really.
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I should say so.
Assuming this really is the last you'll hear of it if you look at things objectively Ebay took just 10 days to resolve this and you are £110 up... so actually in this case their procedures have protected you and in a very reasonable timescale.
I know you say you are giving up selling on there but a protection I use is to ask any bidder with less than 5 feedbacks (10 on expensive items) to get in touch before bidding or I'll just cancel their bids. Weeds out the dross a bit.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Tue 11 Jun 13 at 09:58
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>> and you are £110 up
Not really. He's back to square one, but the phone now has scratches on the back of it.
i.e. Someone has had a free loan of his phone and returned it damaged.
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I read it that they'd reversed the refund so he now has the payment and the phone back?? That did surprise me I have to admit.
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Yes, he's got the money back, but that doesn't make him £110 up.
>> That did surprise me I have to admit.
Agreed. Where ebay are concerned, t usually defaults to the buyers side, not the sellers.
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>> I read it that they'd reversed the refund so he now has the payment and
>> the phone back?? That did surprise me I have to admit.
It surprised me too. I have had (and spent!) the money from the phone, and now have the phone back as well, albeit damaged. So, assuming that nothing further comes of this episode, I can now send the phone off to one of the recycling companies and receive a further £60 or so.
I don't know if eBay are going to reverse the refund to the buyer, nor do I know whether they will allow him to appeal as well. All I do know is that I have had an email from them staying that I owe them nothing and that I need take no further action.
I can't help but have a little nagging doubt in the back of my mind.
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This is the email I received:
''We've reviewed your concerns and have reversed the outcome of the case. You don't need to take any additional action to reimburse eBay for the refund paid to the buyer, and eBay will make no further attempts to seek reimbursement from you.
Because we decided in your favor, this case, any feedback left, and all detailed seller ratings left, will not affect your seller performance. In addition, any feedback left for this transaction will be removed.
If you have other questions, please contact us. You can reach us by going to the eBay website and clicking "Customer Support" in the upper right corner and then selecting "Contact eBay."
Thanks,
eBay''
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Ah so they covered you under seller protection, they reimbursed the buyer but are no longer seeking that amount from you. I wonder if they will take further action against the buyer that you will not hear about.
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eBay Problems. - Mike H
