Please can we keep this simple and to the point please.
(a) If the bottom end went on a 2.5 year old, dealer serviced, 32k miles car, what is the likely cause?
(b) If the second service was 19k miles after the first service (instead of 12.5k) is that likely to have any material bearing on the failure, if so, what?
(c) Should the second service (2k miles before failure) have picked up something (e.g. lack of oil or through diagnostics) which could have prevented the failure?
(d) Which parts of a standard 25k service, if done at the right time, might have prevented the failure?
|
Can only answer (c) but I remember from my days working with Rovers that anything with a plug in point was checked on the computer as part of the service even if there were no warning lights. Whether or not this should show up imminent failure its hard to say without know what info is recorded but you would hope so.
I think, despite the obviously late service, your very unfortunate chap.
|
a) You'd need to see the crank/bearings. Either oil starvation (level/blockage) or mechanical failure of something.
b) Not ideal leaving a service so long but in truth this would be more likely to be the start of increased wear into the higher mileages not the cause of sudden failure.
c) Probably not. They may have drained the oil without taking a level first and routine diagnostics would not help.
d) Probably nothing.
|
Bottom end failure is likely to be caused by lack of oil, or poor quality oil.
The bearings are just shells with an interference fit, so they depend heavily on oil.
They are not needle roller or ball bearings which are more tolerant of lack of lubrication.
|
(a) If the bottom end went on a 2.5 year old, dealer serviced, 32k miles car, what is the likely cause?
Oil starvation - unless it's a localised faliure which could be a manufacturing fault on one main or big end. Is the oil pump pickup clean, and is there any obvious wear in the oil pump? Is the pressure relief valve in working order?
(b) If the second service was 19k miles after the first service (instead of 12.5k) is that likely to have any material bearing on the failure, if so, what?
On an old engine that sludged the oil up and running on mono-grade oil that readily degrades, perhaps - on a modern low mileage clean running petrol engine running on multigrade oil - unlikely I'd have thought. UNLESS the oil level was very low - but then I would have expected you to have seen the oil pressure light flickering round corners. If the failure was dirty oil due to non-service, then I would expect the see the oil pump pickup strainer blocked.
(c) Should the second service (2k miles before failure) have picked up something (e.g. lack of oil or through diagnostics) which could have prevented the failure?
Only fault would have been low oil level, but that would have been 'rectified' by the service. I doubt the ECU records the oil pressure, but it might.
(d) Which parts of a standard 25k service, if done at the right time, might have prevented the failure?
Oil change, but only if failure related to dirty oil / low oil level.
The maker will hide behind the missed service - you will need to produce evidence that there was another failure (eg the oil pump drive, pressure relief valve etc) that was not related.
|
Assuming the failure was caused by the late oil change then there was only one way to prevent the failure and that was to service the car properly and on time! Unless you can establish the cause of failure was something else or that a late oil change shouldn't have been so catastrophic I think you will have to take it on the chin if it was you that was late with the service. If it was a previous owner then either you should have noticed it was so late and walked away or there maybe a case against the supplying dealer if the price didn't reflect the late service.
Unless you instructed a dealer to find possible signs of trouble (may lead to expensive bill if they found anything anyway) then I can't see how you could have prevented it after the event.
|
(a) Only two posible causes. 1/ manufacturing error. 2/Oil starvation
(b) (1) Its possible (2) blocked oil filter, blocked oil ways.
(c) If the oil was low at the second service, it would have been commented upon, however the damage could already have been done
(d) Oil and Oil filter.
There are other factors.
Failure of or fitting the wrong type of oil filter at the last service could have caused the bottom end failure 2k miles later.
|
(a) If the bottom end went on a 2.5 year old, dealer serviced, 32k miles car, what is the likely cause?
The most likely cause, bearing in mind the missing service, is a failure of the lubrication of the bearings - the pick up strainer may have become blocked. However, there are other possible causes - for example if a big end bolt suffered a fatigue failure, if one of the teeth in the oil pump suffered a fatigue failure, etc, etc. Only a careful examination would be able to determine the true cause.
(b) If the second service was 19k miles after the first service (instead of 12.5k) is that likely to have any material bearing on the failure, if so, what?
Yes - the oil is likely to become too contaminated, and may begin to form sludge which may block oilways. This is especially true if the oil used in the original service was only just adequate for normal life servicing. It is possible that the oil used in the last service dislodged previously formed deposits.
(c) Should the second service (2k miles before failure) have picked up something (e.g. lack of oil or through diagnostics) which could have prevented the failure?
No - there's absolutely nothing which is done in a routine service which could have detected any of the possible faults which caused this failure. Plugging the car into to the computer only checks electrical trouble codes, it does nothing mechanical - despite the manufacturer's hype.
(d) Which parts of a standard 25k service, if done at the right time, might have prevented the failure?
The prime one is the oil change and filter.
|
>> Please can we keep this simple and to the point please.
>>
>> (a) If the bottom end went on a 2.5 year old dealer serviced 32k miles
>> car what is the likely cause?
What exactly is the failure?
Why isn't this in "technical"?
|
Exactly what is the symptons is it knocking or seized?
Knocking "may" get away with new bearings seized well thats a re ground crank and over sized bearings.
What car is this?
If ford they don't fix do they a new block required.
|
This thread does not contain enough information from the OP. It is impossible to answer except in generalities.
Model, service history, driving style, long runs/short runs.. any other issues, all needed to establish any kind of base before any answer can be given..
What are the symptoms? etc..
Until we get ALL that, any answers are a waste of time in my view..
|
Madf is not quite right as we can't get ALL of the information that is necessary eg. full strip down and engineer's report of the damage, so we can only go on generalities.
The generalities are helpful at least initially:
Cause: oil starvation.
Due to extended oil change interval?: Possible but more likely running v.low of oil at this mileage. Could someone have topped it up after becoming aware of noise in the engine and hoped a top-up would mask it?
Manufacturing defect?: Needs a strip-down to have any chance of showing this.
If it's a diseasel then major fuel dilution of the oil may be a factor - not sure if you can analyse the oil in the engine as obviously the oil from the last service will be long gone.
12.5k miles - ?Honda.
|
>> Cause: oil starvation.
I can't shake this vision of the apprentice starting Smokie's car up and gassing it 'cos the oil light won't go out, stopping the engine, realising it's empty, topping it up, running it again and feeling relieved that he can't hear anything amiss.
Getting the facts in this case may prove challenging.
|
you all need to read Number Crunchers post at Thu 29 Apr 10 10:12
and take the information in
then say to yourselves if you were in the same position, have i invalidated the warranty?
sorry smokie
|
>> Please can we keep this simple and to the point please.
>>
It is clear that a lot of the respondents to this thread do not have the benefit of having read smokie's original, now hidden, post on this subject. Otherwise many of the questions and false assumptions could have been avoided.
I think it is very unlikely that a missed oil service should lead to a bottom end failure. BTW, has the bearing failed or the conrod bottom end? A possible manufacturing defect which just happens to fail soon after a belated service or, as Lygonos hints, someone may have started the engine without oil circulating. How that may have happened is anybody's guess. Smokie should get the engine parts examined by an independent professional Mechanical Engineer and or a Metallurgist.
Warranty is irrelevant. take action in the small claims court as per the examples of the Corsa camshaft failures people on HJ's website.
Last edited by: John H on Thu 29 Apr 10 at 19:49
|
I think it is very unlikely that a missed oil service should lead to a bottom end failure
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> that is so far wrong i wring my hands in despair
|
Well prepare to wring your hands again...
I personally know of many cars with 6k oil intervals that have been taken out to 10k, 15k and even 20k by owners skimping. Not one of these has ever suffered instant and terminal bottom end failure. Yes they look black under the cam cover and yes I always though they suffered an increase in bore/valve train wear but failure... no.
One example a Pug petrol with a 10k interval was serviced once at 20k and then not again until 42k. Suspect the old filter was the original when changed at 42k as the elements were brittle and just starting to break down allowing unfiltered oil through. That was 4yrs ago and still no failure.
Another example a 1,4 petrol Citroen ZX going from 50k to almost 80k without oil or filter change.... that engine was still fine when I last saw it at 145k.
The only two bottom end failures I've known have both been 1960s cars run with old oil at low levels and driven with unreasonable haste.
Don't get me wrong I don't treat my own cars like this and advise others to keep their servicing to the book but you have to be wary of taking it as read that the extra mileage on the oil did the damage for sure.
|
If this was my car I'd be wanting Ford to tell me why this car has problems so soon. I think the late service is no more than an excuse for Ford.
Best of luck with this.
edited at the request of the OP
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 30 Apr 10 at 10:18
|
Indeed my friends Clio has not had an oil change for 20k and the engine still sounds like new and there is no real signs of any wear. Although I am only going off the fact it sounds healthy and there is no smoke. It also drives perfectly.
The problem is if Ford can get out of paying they will. If they pay out to Smokie then all the other drivers who have left a service too late will claim.
I still think employing an automotive engineer to look at the engine might be worth doing. If they then write to Ford saying it was not the lack of an oil change the court may decide in Smokie's favour and make Ford replace the engine.
|
Smokie, see my post in your hidden thread, it is really quite relevant.
(a) If the bottom end went on a 2.5 year old, dealer serviced, 32k miles car, what is the likely cause?
Lack of oil / failed oil pump.
(b) If the second service was 19k miles after the first service (instead of 12.5k) is that likely to have any material bearing on the failure, if so, what?
Lack of oil.
(c) Should the second service (2k miles before failure) have picked up something (e.g. lack of oil or through diagnostics) which could have prevented the failure?
Lack of oil though only if apparent at the time.
(d) Which parts of a standard 25k service, if done at the right time, might have prevented the failure?
Checking the oil level BEFORE draining the oil and replacing the filter would tell them that the level was low though that would only be a snapshot in time and the damage would probably already have been done.
The only other possibility is that the recent service was deficient and caused the damage (starting the car with no oil in it etc) though it is very, very unlikely.
Last edited by: Cheddar on Fri 30 Apr 10 at 08:01
|
>> Well prepare to wring your hands again...
SQ
Yes, thanks for backing me, Fenlander. There are hundreds if not thousands of examples like that. I stand by my claim that it is "very unlikely" that a missed oil service should lead to a bottom end failure. Mathematics and probabilities, bellboy, mathematics and probabilities. One practical test concluded that "one is forced to wonder whether an engine with a high-quality PAO synthetic combined with a bypass filtration system and regular filter changes would ever need its oil changed at all".
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 30 Apr 10 at 10:16
|
Why has the post been censored? Why can't a censored (expurgated) version be posted?
If information germane to producing a result has been deleted, leading to people wasting their time posting, the OP in this thread should've been hidden, too.
|
|
Can't see what's been censored - help !
|
|
Nor can I. End of any discussion of a resurrection of that one then.
|
>> Why has the post been censored? Why can't a censored (expurgated) version be posted?
>>
>> If information germane to producing a result has been deleted leading to people wasting their
>> time posting the OP in this thread should've been hidden too.
>>
www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?t=878&v=f
edit - FT just seen your new post below mine.
Last edited by: John H on Fri 30 Apr 10 at 10:05
|
>> It is clear that a lot of the respondents to this thread do not have the benefit
>> of having read smokie's original now hidden post on this subject. Otherwise
>> many of the questions and false assumptions could have been avoided.
No problems, t's all over the Internet anyway. One "for instance": bit.ly/cJEx7j
It doesn't really give much more information than "It was run for 19,000 miles without a service" "It was making a fuunny noise" "The mechanic said the bottom end might be bust".
|
|
Oh sorry FT I was still in the States then - I can't answer that one.
|
>> Oh sorry FT I was still in the States then - I can't answer that
>> one.
>>
The link I posted answers it from the horses mouth.
|
|
Yeah I saw that - I thought FT was referring to an edit in this thread, I didn't know it had been discussed previously. Thanks.
|
>> No problems t's all over the Internet anyway. One "for instance": bit.ly/cJEx7j
>>
That's not the full thread, it states 23 replies though if you click on the thread title it says 26 replies and thread hidden.
|
My apols, I've been trying to be discreet to avoid prejudicing anything which I may take up with suppliers/dealers. I thought I'd hidden the previous thread. There is nothing suspicious, more paranoia on my part.
I need to get out for work but thank you all for comments so far, and will come back later to answer some of the questions raised.
|
Bottom end failure - Stuu
