Congrats to towns granted City status, i don't have clue why they would want this or the benefits if any, apart from kudos for apparatchiks.
I happened to hear a bit of Jeremy Vine's show on Friday when some representatives were sour graping about their towns failure to gain Cityhood.
One bod was pontificating about Dudley, waxing lyrical about the millions they are spending on various attractions and centres as if the fact they are throwing money around like a demented lottery winner is a reason for celebration.
Would it be a labour controlled council i found myself wondering, whether it is or isn't, hasn't the results of the last 20 years taught people anything?
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Wrexham and St Asaph were up for it around here - Wrexham is a big town and arguably the regional capital with some solid industry based there (JCB and Sharp to name but two), comically St Asaph got it - now St Asaph has a Cathedral and has always regarded itself as a city but in reality is a one petrol station town with little apart form the Cathedral to commend it. Making Wrexham a city would have been a wise move economically in my opinion.
Last edited by: R.P. on Sat 17 Mar 12 at 21:38
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Well at least Essex has its first city, and despite being the oldest mentioned roman town in Brittain (by Pliny) Its not Colchester, but Chelmsford!
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 17 Mar 12 at 21:42
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Chelmsford does have Roman connections though. Originally called Ceasaromagus apparently. Sort of overspill from Londinium although doesn't appear to have been a very popular place to live and was eventually overrun by the local tribes known as Chavii who were based in Basilodunum and Romfordium
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Reading needs to sort its traffic problems out before deserving to be considered as a city.
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Lucky 'Where is St Asaph?' wasn't in that citizenship test we had such fun with the other day. Honestly, today is the first time I've heard of it. Does it have another name?
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Does it have another name?
You won't recognise that either ! Llanelwy.
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I believe a city needs to have some history, as a place of authority, a leader in something, some culture, made its name in something worthy of city status.
Based on that, it will take more than banning cars to make Reading a city. It would also knock many other cities off the perch as well.
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Reading made its name in biscuits
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>> Reading made its name in biscuits
>>
and bulbs and beers and now a thrice failed to become a city. :-(
I think it is most famous for its beer festival, the loco works and now its outlet stores.
Wiki says it is 21 in the table of largest settlements in the UK by urban core population. 232K souls reside there .
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I wish Stockport had got it, but I think it is just too close to Manchester to be really be a city. Stockport is only successful on the back of Manchester. Is a very odd town with some of the poorest people and richest people in the UK living within a few miles of each other. It has a cathedral but no university, although it has a large college with a big HE department (currently studying there).
I hate the place but my car dealer and college is there, it offers more down to earth services Manchester has long given up on (such as a decent FE college offering teacher training and something called a FIAT dealer).
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>> with some of the poorest people and richest people in the UK living within a few miles of each other
Could that not be said of many towns and cities? And I'd be interested to know where Stockport cathedral is.
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I always confusing St Mary's always assumed it must have had one with all those city bids.
But it doesn't have one :(.
Stockport is extreme in rich and poor though, you have places like Bramhall/Cheadle/Heaton Moor, Mersey and Chapel then much poorer areas such as Norris and Reddish right next to each other. Then Brinnington/Marple etc.
The extremes in Manchester tend to be more spread out, e.g much of south Manchester being expensive with East Manchester being much cheaper as of a lot North.
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The city of Lancaster technically is not a city! - it doesn`t have a Church of England Cathedral, it does however have a Roman Catholic one, which apparently doesn`t count. It is only designated a "City" by Royal decree, and the fact that the Queen is the Duke of Lancaster.
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A city doesn't need a cathedral. Its city status merely needs to be decreed by the monarch. Doesn't now mean much apart from some perceived status.
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>> The city of Lancaster technically is not a city! - it doesn`t have a Church
>> of England Cathedral, it does however have a Roman Catholic one, which apparently doesn`t count.
>> It is only designated a "City" by Royal decree, and the fact that the Queen
>> is the Duke of Lancaster.
Leeds also lacks a Cathedral. Another City by Royal Charter.
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I wish Stockport had got it, but I think it is just too close toManchester to be really be a city.
Unlike, say, Salford...?
I hate the place but my car dealer and college is there...
I bit my fingers on your Complement thread, Rats, but did you buy your car from the college, or learn all you know from the car dealer?
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>> I think it is most famous for its beer festival, the loco works and now
>> its outlet stores.
>>
Think you'll find that the loco works is a bit further down the line in Swindon. ;-)
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>> >> Reading made its name in biscuits
>>
>> I think it is most famous for its beer festival
Music rather than beer I would have thought?
At they moment they still seem to be going for places with cathedrals, which makes Reading a non-starter.
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>> Reading needs to sort its traffic problems out before deserving to be considered as a
>> city.
>>
That will never happen.
I cannot thing of a town that come close to the nightmare that Readings road network is....
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Basingstoke is a doddle by comparison with Reading. Actually, I'd say (and I worked there for six years) its layout works pretty well, except in the very centre, where the traffic generated by the size of the new edges rather overloads the old nucleus of the town. But the ring road and satellites arrangement is entirely logical, and certainly easier to learn than Milton Keynes's unforgiving grid; all those roundabouts give plenty of opportunity to correct your missed turns.
Reading, on the other hand... We've been back in the South for two years now and I still can't get past Caversham Bridge without getting lost or stuck.
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>> Reading, on the other hand... We've been back in the South for two years now
>> and I still can't get past Caversham Bridge without getting lost or stuck.
>>
Toy have managed to get past Caversham Bridge????
Tell me, what is your secret?
I did here that Reading was in with a good chance of gaining city status - but it fell through when the people sent out to check the town out, got lost in the one way system, and still haven't been found.....
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>> I did here that Reading was in with a good chance of gaining city status
>> - but it fell through when the people sent out to check the town out,
>> got lost in the one way system, and still haven't been found.....
Ah but once you get the hang of it you realise what a beautiful elegant system it is*.
*not really
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I've often wondered, well, not often in truth, maybe, occasionally wondered would be more accurate. Even then only fleetingly to be fair but I digress.
Why is Reading pronounced "Redding"? I mean I do know that if one reads something it can be said to have been read but during the the process of being read it's always remains a reading and not a redding doesn't it? I think we should have an explanation.
Sometime.
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I wonder that as well - very confusing language.
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Slough's another one. Should be "Sluff" or "Slug" or "Slowg" shouldn't it?
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yeah its strange I mean
Faux Tudor should be pronounced Fouwcks Tuwdoor
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>> Slough's another one. Should be "Sluff" or "Slug" or "Slowg" shouldn't it?
>>
Difficult that one !
Esher is just five letters but manages to fool many.
Perhaps it should be spelt Eesher :-)
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Are you Slough on the uptake..? :-)
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"Reading may have existed as early as the Roman occupation of Britain, possibly as a trading port for Calleva Atrebatum.[6] However the first clear evidence for Reading as a settlement dates from the 8th century, when the town came to be known as Readingum. The name probably comes from the Readingas, an Anglo-Saxon tribe whose name means Reada's People in Old English,[7] or less probably the Celtic Rhydd-Inge, meaning Ford over the River.[8]"
Wikipedia - so some at least may be true. To pronounce 'reading' as is reading a book is probably a lot more modern thanpronouncing it as in 'steading'or even 'raiding. And of course English is inconsistent - when you've finished reading a book it's been read.
I wonder why we pronounce London as we do: there's no evidence that the Romans pronounced Londinium any way other than as spelt.
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>> I wonder that as well - very confusing language.
Our glorious language is designed to confuse Johnny Foreigner! ;-)
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>> Why is Reading pronounced "Redding"?
Probably to do with its origins:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Reading,_Berkshire#Beginnings
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Interesting that - one of the Welsh words for Brook is Rhyd - so there's a connection.
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>> Probably to do with its origins:
>> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Reading,_Berkshire#Beginnings
Ah see it was a Chariot jam over the Thames in Roman times.
Silchester has become one of my favourite dog walking areas in a Sunday afternoon. A walk round the town on top of the Roman walls is really rather historical.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 19 Mar 12 at 20:24
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For some reason I read the film title Burn After Reading in the sense of combust before Paddington.
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I used to have to drive through Peasedown St John every day for two years. Never could get my head round that one.
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>> >> I did here that Reading was in with a good chance of gaining city
>> status - but it fell through when the people sent out to check the town
>> out, got lost in the one way system, and still haven't been found.....
>>
>> Ah but once you get the hang of it you realise what a beautiful elegant
>> system it is*.
>
Is it true that the IDR, means In Direct Route?
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Incompetently Designed Route
Incomplete Disastrous Rubbish
Take your pick (for those fortunate enough not to be acquainted with Reading, it's supposed to mean Inner Distribution Road - all it actually does is distrbute traffic into the next traffic jam, because of there being far too many road junctions and traffic lights).
Last edited by: Avant on Mon 19 Mar 12 at 21:11
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I thought I'd been to most places in the UK at one time or another but it has just come to me that I've never actually been to Reading. Remiss I know...
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>> I thought I'd been to most places in the UK at one time or another
>> but it has just come to me that I've never actually been to Reading. Remiss
>> I know...
>>
Humph.... you are VERY lucky!
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Let me know if you ever break that particular duck, Humph. I'll buy you a pint at the Bull at Sonning, which the church where I'm organist is lucky enough to own.
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In Scotland, pronounced Reems.
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I don't drink in dives, I mean...
:-)
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>> I don't drink in dives, I mean...
>>
>> :-)
>>
Sonning is a lovely little village, Reading however is not.... ;-)
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By all means dive when you've drunk, Humph: the Thames is just the other side of the churchyard.
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>> >> Reading needs to sort its traffic problems out before deserving to be considered as
>> >> a city.
On the contrary, the appalling traffic is a sign of a place ready for re-classification...
>> That will never happen.
>> I cannot thing of a town that come close to the nightmare that Readings road
>> network is....
>>
I can. Boston. As previously noted on here following a trip to New England a couple of years ago, when Bill Bryson wrote that whoever designed Boston's freeway system was insane, he was (if anything) wildly understating matters.
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The smallest (by pop) City in Briton is St David's in Wales (1,797) how can that be a City ffs!
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What are the benefits for the people of a borough for gaining City status?
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It provides employment for the signwriters. :-)
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Higher payscales for those at the top of the local council I expect...
Not exactly a benefit ..
-(
Last edited by: AnotherJohnH on Sun 18 Mar 12 at 11:40
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Re Dogs post on Saint Davids in Wales -
It's about the size of a village, doesn't have a railway station and there are no buses on Sunday. Even the HSBC branch only opens three days a week.
Last edited by: Robin Regal on Sun 18 Mar 12 at 11:59
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Got a decent non-chain old fashioned pub though - just out of the centre so it's not packed without tourists either.
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In the old days there used to be a correlation between having a cathedral and being a city, whatever its population - hence St. David's and Lichfield for example, and people in St. Asaph seem to have thought it was a city all along. More recently a cathedral hasn't been necessary - e.g. Leeds and Cambridge.
Apart from the newly-created cities, I can't think of any (C of E) cathedral towns which aren't cities, but no doubt someone will come up with one.
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" I can't think of any (C of E) cathedral towns which aren't cities, but no doubt someone will come up with one."
Bury St Edmunds
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and also Guildford,Rochester,and Southwark all of which have cathedrals and which are not cities.
You might also include Gibralter and Stanley which both have cathedrals and are part of the Anglian communion and report directly to the Archbishop of Canterbury
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Southwark is hardly a town (or a City) its where I was bjorn (in Guy's actually) cathedral.southwark.anglican.org/
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>> and also Guildford
You are right, I didn't realise the Surrey has no city.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_in_the_United_Kingdom
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>> " I can't think of any (C of E) cathedral towns which aren't cities, but
>> no doubt someone will come up with one."
>>
>> Bury St Edmunds
>>
Make that two..... Southwell. Population of 6,900, bigger than St. Davids and St. Asaph put together.
Having been brought up in a nearby village, educated at the Minster Grammar School and having also lived and worked there for six years I can vouch for the fact that it's totally undeserving of city status though, being a one-horse town whose native population can see through a keyhole with both eyes. Its traffic system is a monument to NIMBY-ism, proposed by-passes having been rejected by various influential residents, resulting in the place becoming a dormitory town for the wealthy, assisted by a peasant underclass who never leave the parish boundary and are therefore totally inbred.
As you've probably guessed I don't miss the place! ;-)
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St Asaph always had a Cathedral, well since the 13th Century - historical note; William Morgan the one time Bishop there translated the Bible into Welsh (I believe the 14th language for it to be translated into) - many reckon that this was partly responsible for the survival of the language as a living language to this day.
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>> The smallest (by pop) City in Briton is St David's in Wales (1,797) how can
>> that be a City ffs!
I might dispute that, Perro if I knew the population of another city, 10 minutes drive from the boundary of Greater Manchester
The smallest cathedral in the UK is not in a city.........?.
Salford has no Anglican Cathedral, either. Bolton was also after the title along with Stockport. If both had won, we would have had 4 interconnected cities here ! Surely unique in the world.
I hope we don't go down the US route, where most villages seem to be called cities and have a City Fire/Police Dept.
Any offers on our ' littlest city '.......Rats ?
Ted
>>
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Bangor has to be the smallest one I have ever visited or even know well.
Salford has quite a bit population and I think it was a city before Manchester was, something which my Salford mates take great pleasure in winding me up about!
Salford does at least have a very big university (22,000 students) but must be unique in the UK in the fact it has no city centre. The city centre of Salford is called Manchester.
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It's like grade inflation. Any two-bit village can become a city now.
It should be reserved for towns of international business and cultural status having a population of over 1 million.
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I don't think any city in the UK has a population of 1 million . Birmingham is the UK's biggest city and has a population of just under 1 million,.
Manchester will be around 500,000 (grown by over 100,000 in the past ten years).
Of course it depends on how you define a city, for example I am sure most people think of Trafford, Tameside, Salford, Stockport etc as apart of Manchester, and of course they are in Greater Manchester It always annoys me when I see the population of London quoted as 9 million and Manchester as 400,000. If the pop of Manchester is 400,000 then the population of London is 10,000.
I really don't know why we have 10 councils in Greater Manchester but they are rumours of some authorities merging over the next ten years or so. If Salford merged with Manchester then it would loose its city status I assume.
To me the fairest way to judge a city is it must be the heart of a major metropolitan area.
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It makes me quite mad when I see those lists, if you believe that Bristol is bigger than Manchester, where as Bristol me just seems like a big town!.
I think it also can hold Manchester back, as international investors looking at that might think it is just a small city not worth bothering with, without realising there is 2 million people in a ten mile radius.
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To be fair there is at least a side note explaining GM is 2.2 million (prob 2.5 now) and it does say settlements.
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doesn;t matter.
Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Mon 19 Mar 12 at 10:35
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>> Actually I am mad
We concluded that long ago ;o)
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Poor ole Truro is virtually uninhabited (19,000)
:}
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>> Any offers on our ' littlest city '.......Rats ?
The city of London will come close, population 11,700, smallest police force in he Uk by territory and officers, 870 and 1.12 square miles.
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>> smallest police force in he Uk by territory and officers, 870
They used to have different helmet detailing from the rest of the Met too. I don't know if they still have.
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Helmets still different AC and until quite recently they still had cuff bands and wore blue rather than white shirts. They're the local force at the front of my office but the rear of the premises are in Westminster and therefore come under the Met. IIRC there's some arrangement where they have joint policing area on the margins. Certainly seen City officers run into Carey St after 'their' miscreants!!
Westpig could probably tell us more
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 19 Mar 12 at 15:06
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The smallest city in the North-West is Thelwall, in Cheshire. Granted city status in about 850 AD It has few facilities but a rather nice pub, The Pickering Arms. SWM's cousin lives in the city, which is mainly residential.
The smallest cathedral in the UK is in Millport, on the island of Great Cumbrae. It's the Cathedral of Argyll and the Western Isles.
When I joined the force in 1963 we were given various details about the country's police forces. The smallest, at that time, was the York Minster Police. I think there were six of them and they had normal uniforms and police powers.
I wonder if they're still going.
Ted
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>>
>> The smallest city in the North-West is Thelwall, in Cheshire. Granted city status in about
>> 850 AD It has few facilities but a rather nice pub, The Pickering Arms. SWM's
>> cousin lives in the city, which is mainly residential.
Well its got a viaduct, but the city is an urban myth.
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A suburban myth by the sound of it.
Reminded me for some reason of the alleged comment of a football commentator, "..there'll be dancing in the streets of Raith tonight!"
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Leitch
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Up to 10 now Ted, if Wikipedia is to be believed!
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/York_Minster_Police
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Yes, I Wiki'd it after posting, Pete. Looks like like they are just security men now. Interesting that other cathedrals like Liverpool and Hereford also have ' police '.
The road signs at the edge of Thelwall say 'Welcome to the City of Thelwall ' or similar. It has no access to or from the viaduct directly but it does have locks capable of handling ocean going ships.
Ted
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Even though we lived in a city we always said we were "going into town", not "going into city".
Explain that one!
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Durham is a city, it has one of the finest cathedrals in the country.
But it also has an almost equally old town hall.
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New Cities - R.P.
