I'm thinking about buying a 2nd hand laptop, running XP, just in case my old Toshiba gives more trouble. (I don't fancy Windows 7 - at least not yet).
The options I have thought of are Morgan Computers and Ebay - with a general preference for the former.
Morgan mostly have have machines from Dell, HP. Their machines tend to be advertised as "Grade A refurbished" or "Good 2nd user condition" - with a 3 month warranty. Does it make much difference whether one gets "Grade A refurbished" or "Good 2nd user condition"?
Any other advice to a computer duffer?
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...Any other advice to a computer duffer?...
Windows 7 is nothing to be scared of, although many people still like XP.
Don't, whatever you do, buy a machine running Vista.
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Thanks, Iffy. My wife has just started using a laptop running Windows 7, and, well, I guess it's OK, but . . .
Don't worry, I wasn't considering Vista!!
By the way, the ebay item I was attracted by was tinyurl.com/7nnlges
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>>
>> Windows 7 is nothing to be scared of, although many people still like XP.
>>
>> Don't, whatever you do, buy a machine running Vista.
>>
The Spamettes' laptops run Vista HP with 3GB of RAM and are no bother. However a neighbour's HP netbook running Vista Home basic(?) with 512MB of RAM is the most horrible machine I've ever used. All I'm sayin' is Vista is fine if you have enough RAM.
I use XP, Vista and 7 on a pretty much daily basis, I see very little difference between Vista and 7, the only advantage I see as a domestic user over XP is quicker/better handling of USB devices.
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There are lots of little things about 7 that irritate me, but by far the biggest gripe is the shutdown time. Not since Windows 98 has there been a Microsoft OS that's so painfully slow to shut down. That's without the random application of updates that make it even worse.
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I've just timed shutdown on my Win 7 HP laptop; 17 elephants. Is yours much longer than that?
Agreed the updates are a PITA, mine did an update induced automatic reboot today as well, which was mildly annoying.
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>> I've just timed shutdown on my Win 7 HP laptop; 17 elephants. Is yours much
>> longer than that?
>>
>> Agreed the updates are a PITA, mine did an update induced automatic reboot today as
>> well, which was mildly annoying.
Dont have the updates set on automatic. Just set them to download and not apply, and then you apply them at your leisure.
Win 7 is a fine OS, possibly the best MS have produced, and better than XP SP2 - which was its best to date.
Mine shuts down quickly, if yours doesn't you have too much running in the way of background apps.
Anyway, shutdown time does not matter. You start shutdown and walk away, matters not how long it takes because you are off doing something else.
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>> Anyway, shutdown time does not matter.
It does with a laptop that you're waiting to shut down before popping it into a bag.
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>> It does with a laptop that you're waiting to shut down before popping it into
>> a bag.
True - mine takes ages (minutes) if I've been running VMWare, which I usually do on the train, so I have to be careful. Closing the lid before it's off causes other problems.
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"Win 7 is a fine OS, possibly the best MS have produced, and better than XP SP2 - which was its best to date. "
No doubt Windows 7 is fine, but at the moment, it is driving my wife crazy. One tries to load familiar programs onto Windows 7, but they don't load. Those that do load often fail to work, or don't work the way they did on XP. It has meant hours of extra work.
If you had never known XP, that's fine. But if you are an old dog that doesn't like learning new tricks, it's a pain.
Hence, I'm reconsidering my plan to buy a 2nd hand laptop running XP. Instead, I'm thinking of buying two or three of them.
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>> "Win 7 is a fine OS, possibly the best MS have produced, and better than
>> XP SP2 - which was its best to date. "
>>
>> No doubt Windows 7 is fine, but at the moment, it is driving my wife
>> crazy. One tries to load familiar programs onto Windows 7, but they don't load. Those
>> that do load often fail to work, or don't work the way they did on
>> XP. It has meant hours of extra work.
>>
I deliberately bought a Win7 32 bit machine when I wanted a new desktop, for that reason, although even then there are one or two programmes that don't work. I ended up using the Dell small business portal because the Dell 'Home user' portal wouldn't let me buy a 32bit machine. I'd be happy living with XP forever though.
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>> That's without the random application of updates that make it even worse. >>
MS updates (except for MSE AV updated daily) are released on the 2nd Tuesday of every month. On a very few occasions (at a guess less than 10, possibly less than 5), they have had to issue emergency updates to counter serious security threats. As Zero says, set updates to be notified but not downloaded automatically.
>> No doubt Windows 7 is fine, but at the moment, it is driving my wife crazy. One tries to load familiar programs onto Windows 7, but they don't load. Those that do load often fail to work, or don't work the way they did on XP. It has meant hours of extra work. >>
Users of Win 7 pro/ultimate have the right to a free licensed copy of Win XP pro which can be run on the Win7 PC in "XP mode".
If she doesn't have Win7 ultimate/pro:
either - pay for an upgrade.
www.sevenforums.com/tutorials/8247-windows-xp-mode-install-setup.html
arstechnica.com/microsoft/reviews/2010/01/windows-xp-mode.ars/2
or - www.howtogeek.com/howto/11060/create-an-xp-mode-for-windows7-home-versions-and-vista/
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>>Users of Win 7 pro/ultimate have the right to a free licensed copy of Win XP pro which can be run the Win7 PC in "XP mode".
Interesting. We have Windows 7 Home Premium Service Pack 1, which, I suppose is not good enough.
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>> Interesting. We have Windows 7 Home Premium Service Pack 1, which, I suppose is not good enough. >>
It won't allow you to download the free XP-pro copy from MS.
The link I gave in the "or" option I gave above, has full instructions:
"However, if you have a legal copy of Windows XP, then you can easily recreate XP Mode ... "
www.howtogeek.com/howto/11060/create-an-xp-mode-for-windows7-home-versions-and-vista/
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"However, if you have a legal copy of Windows XP, then you can easily recreate XP Mode ... "
Would a recovery disc be good enough?
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>> Would a recovery disc be good enough? >>
Don't know as I have never used a recovery disc, but it may work if this definition of recovery disc is true:
"OEM supplied recovery media is commonly shipped with most computers to allow the user to reformat the hard drive and reinstall the operating system and pre-loaded software as it was when it was shipped."
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>> No doubt Windows 7 is fine, but at the moment, it is driving my wife
>> crazy. One tries to load familiar programs onto Windows 7, but they don't load. Those
>> that do load often fail to work, or don't work the way they did on
>> XP. It has meant hours of extra work.
Lord knows what she is trying to run, it must be old DOS based stuff that is trying to access the hardware interfaces directly. Frankly its time to look for better alternative apps. I have not had any of those problems,
>> If you had never known XP, that's fine. But if you are an old dog
>> that doesn't like learning new tricks, it's a pain.
I am an old dog, used windows since I installed version 1.
>> Hence, I'm reconsidering my plan to buy a 2nd hand laptop running XP. Instead, I'm
>> thinking of buying two or three of them.
Thats really very backwards thinking. Frankly second hand laptops of Windows XP vintage are a desperate gamble and you are buying into a shedload of mechanical and electronic agro.
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Thanks for the plain speaking, RF!
The most recent problem came with Canoscan Toolbox, which came with a Canoscan 5000F scanner purchased around 2004. It wouldn't install from the disc. We downloaded a new version from Canon, and there are twain driver problems.
>>I am an old dog, used windows since I installed version 1.
Yes, but you are a clever old dog. Some of us are technophobic old dogs!
Perhaps what John H says about running a Windows 7 machine in XP mode would be a useful idea for me.
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Ah twain driver!
Yes twain is an outdated driver that is no longer used. Given that one can buy a new non twain scanner for 50 quid its time to upgrade. Its likely that the booting XP into Win 7 wont allow this driver to work either.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 13 Jan 12 at 12:05
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You must have some serious configuration issues or heaps of crud loaded at startup to get this effect.
I have migrated several machines from XP to 7. One thing that's been true of all of them is that startup and shutdown times are massively faster under 7 than they were under XP. Especially startup, which is a "must have" improvement for laptops and justifies the use of 7 in this area all on its own.
I have yet to find anything that I was running under XP that I have been unable to get running reliably under Win 7 64. Admittedly, some of it required rocket science........
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And I'm not a rocket scientist. My wife might be, but that doesn't always help when it comes to computers!
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>> And I'm not a rocket scientist. My wife might be, but that doesn't always help
>> when it comes to computers!
>>
If you've got TWAIN issues then it may be worth trying Vuescan as a sanity check, that bypasses TWAIN drivers and talks directly to the scanner, the trial copy should be sufficient to see if it all works at least:-
www.hamrick.com/
Confusingly my current video editing SW works fine under 64bit Win7, but not 32 bit, although that seems to be specific to my machine.
The only part of CanonScan toolbox I've found any use is the panaroma stitching program, but that craps out, even with XP, when I try and stitch multiple 5 megapixel images together.
If I'm scanning a photo I use the TWAIN within Photoshop/PSP, if I'm scanning to pdf I sue one of the various basic free apps for that, 'scan2pdf' IIRC.
Last edited by: spamcan61 on Fri 13 Jan 12 at 12:46
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>> There are lots of little things about 7 that irritate me, but by far the
>> biggest gripe is the shutdown time. Not since Windows 98 has there been a Microsoft
>> OS that's so painfully slow to shut down.
You must have a faulty application that is slow to shut down as our 4 computers running Windows 7 shut down in under 30 seconds.
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What's the budget?
Budget - ideally under £200, but prepared to go over by a little bit.
(Alternative answer: It's when the Chancellor of the Exchequer . . .)
:-)
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>> (Alternative answer: It's when the Chancellor of the Exchequer . . .)
:) Just asking to see how close it was to the price of a new one.
That ebay one looks quite good for the money, although I haven't been following 2nd hand laptop prices.
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Quite honestly, I still prefer Windows XP to Windows 7
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>>That ebay one looks quite good for the money
Yes. I must say I like the look of it - though the warranty is 30 days, instead of 3 months if one buys from Morgan. Of course one can buy a 12 month warranty for £40 . . .
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I think this lot are as cheap as any, their cheapest new 15" is a £299 Toshiba.
www.saveonlaptops.co.uk/Toshiba_Satellite_Pro_C660D-1CE_1148472.html
A year's warranty, but of course it's Windows Seven.
Morgan or the ebay one might suit you better.
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Why not buy Windows 7 (as Microsoft patch support for XP ends in 2014) and run it in Windows Classic mode which looks pretty much like XP (come Windows 98) until you get used to it?
Last edited by: Victorbox on Fri 13 Jan 12 at 14:21
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OK. Let's suppose I go down the Windows 7 route.
This place that Iffy has referred me to seems to offer prices that are suspiciously low.
It's not just the Toshiba that he referred me to. The price for this Lenovo is also incredibly cheap.
www.saveonlaptops.co.uk/Lenovo_G570_1147642.html
I'm thinking that I must be missing something.
[I also notice (on Laptops Direct) that there are several kinds of Lenovo G570s, and they vary enormously in price.
(Why the Lenovo, by the way? It has 4 USB ports!)
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The processor in the Lenovo linked to is pretty slow by today's standards. It will explain the lower price. Single threaded performance will not be brilliant. It might be enough for your needs - depends what it is used for.
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Having just set up that exact same laptop - the lenovo G570, for someone, I would say its the bargain of the century. Its a shedload of laptop for the money,
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Don't touch a second hand computer if the previous owner was a Mr G Glitter.
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Update.
After some thought, decided to buy a new laptop .
One running Windows 7.
This one, in fact, which is a little bit more high powered than the one above:
www.saveonlaptops.co.uk/Lenovo_B570_1116385.html
(It only has 3 USB ports, but it does have something which is apparently a combined USB/eSATA port.)
I'm still wondering about getting myself another XP laptop, though . . .
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I bought my last netbook from saveonlaptops and had no problem with the buying process.
Genuine business, as far as I can gather.
There's a Birmingham landline number on the site which is answered by people who work there who have authentic Birmingham accents.
Lenovo is a decent make, so you should have a satisfactory transaction.
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"I bought my last netbook from saveonlaptops and had no problem with the buying process."
I considered both saveonlaptops and Laptops Direct. The machine was the same price, but I saved £10 on delivery by going with saveonlaptops.
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Just to muddy the waters:
www.johnlewis.com/231395873/Product.aspx
At least if it breaks you know they'll polish your chauffeur whilst waiting.
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"Just to muddy the waters:"
I did give serious consideration to the Toshiba c660, but in the end, while I was prepared to put up with only 3 USB ports, I was not prepared to accept 2.
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>>
>> I did give serious consideration to the Toshiba c660, but in the end, while I
>> was prepared to put up with only 3 USB ports, I was not prepared to
>> accept 2.
>>
OK it's a little bit messy, but with a USB hub you can have as many USB devices connected to the laptop as you want.
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The MacBook has only two USB sockets.
Not been a problem for my use, the Magic Mouse is bluetooth, so most of the time there's nothing plugged in.
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With a laptop I would think it is more convenient to attach peripherals like scanners and printers via a USB hub. That way there is only one USB cable to attach. Everything else plugs into the USB Hub.
What exactly requires 3 USB ports on the laptop itself? Although if you're plugging in a mouse, USB drive/stick and printer and don't have a location like a desk to keep things tidy you need a more adhoc approach.
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"What exactly requires 3 USB ports on the laptop itself?"
Good question! The answer, of course, in my case, is that I don't really need 3 USB ports at all. I only ever use two at a time on my current laptop. My wife, however, was shocked that I ordered a laptop with only 3 USB ports. She is the sort of person who would really like to have 4 - at least. When she expressed her shock, I explained that actually, I only ever used two at a time on my current laptop. However, had I ordered a laptop with only 2 USB ports, I really think it might have caused her serious unhappiness. So "What exactly requires 3 USB ports on the laptop itself?" The answer is "a desire not to upset my wife."
But hey, I suppose it's also quite nice to have a spare USB port or two!
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I can see there is a need for more ports than a laptop has. Or more ports than my iMac has for that matter.
On my iMac there are nowhere near enough USB ports for what I want connected - I think it has three? So I use USB hubs (one is powered). Plugged into my iMac are:
- Printer
- Mouse
- Keyboard
- Occasionally a scanner
- External USB drive
- USB cable conveniently used to charge my phone
- USB TV tuner
- Occasionally a USB MPEG4 encoder (speeds up movie renderings in iMovie amongst others)
- USB based SD-Card reader
- ... the list goes on (there's also some mini USB cables I used to use for TomTom and an iPod dock too)
So I can see why 3 USB ports are not enough at times. But if I had a laptop as my main computer then when used on my lap it would have few if any things plugged into a USB port. When used on the desk it would have similar to the above plugged in.... and for convenience the above would be plugged into a (powered) USB hub and one cable would plug into the laptop.
Now if I was buying a MacBook and money no object, I'd have an Apple Display which used Thunderbolt so plugged a power cable and Thunderbolt from the display to the Mac. Everything else would be connected to the USB connection of the display.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Wed 18 Jan 12 at 18:15
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Back to the original topic . . .
At the moment, I've pretty much got it narrowed down to this Dell machine which has been used for a couple of years, been refurbished, and comes with a 6 month warranty, and for which I can purchase a one year warranty bringing it up to the price of the HP laptop below.
tinyurl.com/7jxpf6c
and this machine which is apparently, an unused unit, but, being a "second", has a 3 month warranty.
tinyurl.com/7y9fsvp
They are not very different, so my basic question is "which is likely to be the safer long term bet?"
I'm finding it pretty difficult to decide. Any thoughts?
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I share Zero's concern about laptops with unknown history, but of the two I'd go for the Dell, at least it's a business grade machine; at Spamcan Towers we've had little hassle with the 6 Dells in the household.
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You cant refurnish a used laptop economically. You have no idea how hard they have been used or handled. Mechanically laptops "wear out" - any warranty is a is offered purely as a sales gamble by the retailer.
As far as Dells go, I dont rate them at all in terms of build quality.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 19 Jan 12 at 09:48
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"I'd go for the Dell, at least it's a business grade machine;"
I think that the HP is also categorised as business grade - at least that's what PC Pro seemed to think.
"You cant refurnish a used laptop economically. You have no idea how hard they have been used or handled. "
Does that mean "Definitely not the Dell, and I'd be pretty cautious about the HP"?
By the way, according to Morgan "The term Grade A Refurbished is a classification given by manufactures for stock which cannot be sold as brand new - this would include units returned under money-back warranties, DOA products, tatty packaging, or any unit which has previously been sold through retail. Usually the units will NOT have any signs of use." That seemed to me to indicate a slightly more known history.
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Another update.
The new Lenovo running Windows 7 has arrived.
Regarding saveonlaptops, I was impressed that they got it to me when they said they would, which was within 48 hours of me ordering it. To those of you who live in English conurbations, this may not seem impressive, but if one lives in a remote corner of the Highlands, it came as a bit of a surprise.
Regarding Windows 7, I'm getting used to it.
Regarding Lenovo, I was surprised that I did not get a back-up disc of any kind with it. And it is Lenovo which is responsible. The "setup poster", which is a Lenovo publication, tells me what is included in the package, and sure enough, "Optical disk(s)" come with "Select models only". Odd.
The machine does not have much software, which is as I expected, and half of the icons on the desktop are total mysteries to me.
The software includes MS Office Starter 2010. I take it that I should just delete this since I've installed OpenOffice?
It also includes McAfee - the subscription to which will, I imagine run out soon. No matter - I've downloaded Avast.
One thing currently puzzles me. When I open "Computer" it shows 2 hard drives. One is Local Disk (C:) (Currently 364 GB free out of 421) and the other is LENOVO (D:) (Currently 26.9 free out of 28.9). What's that about?
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You dont need a backup disc of any kind. It has a recovery partition, which by pressing appropriate keys at boot up will completely rebuild the machine back to the same state as purchased.
The D: drive contains lenovo products and drivers, if you wanted to install a different version of Windows.
Yes Dump MS office, both the starter and the full trial version. Do this by un-installing them.
Unistall McAffee and install your free AV of choice ( mine would be MS security Essentials)
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Thanks for that, RF.
No backup disc needed? The wonders of modern science!
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Most versions of Win 7 nag you to create your own backup disks when you start using it (hopefully including starter); I'd seriously recommend doing so, a backup partition is no good if the HDD dies.
In terms of Office 2010 basic then I'd leave it on the HDD unless you're desperate for space, none of these equivalents are 100% compatible in my experience.
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"Most versions of Win 7 nag you to create your own backup disks when you start using it "
Indeed, but so far the nagging has been gentle. I shall at some stage get around to doing it. It also nags me to do one or two other things every time I start up. So far I've ignored them. One of them is, I think, a fingerprint security thing. Personally, I find the fact that with Windows 7 I have to enter a password every time I turn the machine on was more than enough security.
In terms of Office 2010 basic then I'd leave it on the HDD unless you're desperate for space, none of these equivalents are 100% compatible in my experience.
Perhaps not, but I've lived without MS Office for 5 years and not missed it. And my brief experience of Office 2010 didn't fill me with enthusiasm.
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>>
>> Indeed, but so far the nagging has been gentle. I shall at some stage get
>> around to doing it. It also nags me to do one or two other things
>> every time I start up. So far I've ignored them. One of them is, I
>> think, a fingerprint security thing. Personally, I find the fact that with Windows 7 I
>> have to enter a password every time I turn the machine on was more than
>> enough security.
>>
The fingerprint security thing can be switched off via Msconfig I should think; you don't have to use a password on Win7, I don't. Presumably you can turn it off via control panel > user accounts as per XP.
I use an ancient copy of word 2002 as my main word processor, I only leave MS Office 2010 Basic on there in case somebody sends me a docx file. I'm no fan of offcie 2007 or 2010 ;-)
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"you don't have to use a password on Win7, I don't. Presumably you can turn it off via control panel > user accounts as per XP."
Ahhh. Would that be the "Remove your password" box?
"I use an ancient copy of word 2002 as my main word processor, I only leave MS Office 2010 Basic on there in case somebody sends me a docx file."
Well, at least OpenOffice opens docx files!
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>>
>> Well, at least OpenOffice opens docx files!
>>
Keep a careful eye on formatting, OO and LO both managed to change what was supposed to be commented text (i.e. not visible) in a docx of mine to visible text, and some of the hanging indents shifted.
Agreed they work 95% of the time though.
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Actually, now that you mention it, I received a docx the other day which came out a bit odd in OO.
Last edited by: tyro on Sat 21 Jan 12 at 19:30
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>> Actually, now that you mention it, I received a docx the other day which came
>> out a bit odd in OO.
>>
One method I haven't bothered trying yet is to use Microsoft's docx to doc converter and then opening the doc conversion in OO.
www.microsoft.com/download/en/details.aspx?displaylang=en&id=3
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I've read stuff elsewhere about Open Office and Libre Office not being quite 100 per cent compatible with MS Office.
I doubt the small incompatibilities would be a problem to most users.
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>> One method I haven't bothered trying yet is to use Microsoft's docx to doc converter
>> and then opening the doc conversion in OO.
>>
>> www.microsoft.com/download/en/details.aspx?displaylang=en&id=3
I use it all the time and it works perfectly and fairly invisibly - works in Office 2000 as well - standard issue at my office where the company uses Office 2003.
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buying a 2nd hand laptop running XP - Iffy
