I have seen the lady on television who was terminally ill going to Switzerland to die.
I've found her statement very moving she was only sixty one years.I don't know what to think I like to live and have to much to live for.But dying with dignity is inportant.What does everybody else think difficult subject I know.
|
My Grandfather suffered from ill health for the last few years of his life and as a result was very angry and bitter as his body failed him. I think the thought would have crossed his mind especialy during the last few months of his life where he was hospitalized.
My Partners Grandfather had dementia over a long period of time, about 6 years. The last 3 years were truly horrible for him and all around him, and it effectively put his wife's life on hold. I really believe that if he had foreseen how he would have ended up then this is an option he would have taken it.
On a personal note I would consider it if my quality of life deteriorated to such an extent that I was unhappy with no outlook of improvement
|
>> On a personal note I would consider it if my quality of life deteriorated to
>> such an extent that I was unhappy with no outlook of improvement
+1
|
|
I intend to make a living will, with sufficient money to make it happen.
|
Reckon threre's some here'd give you a hand for nothing if you asked Z !
:-))
|
|
I wouldn't give any of the moaning minnies on here the pleasure...
|
Dying is the last thing I intend to do !
But if I'm able, I'll save the cost of a trip to Switz with tablets and a bottle of malt.
Ted
|
|
Good chocolate before you go tho Ted.
|
>> tablets and a bottle of malt.
As long as they are the right sort of tablets. But I think I agree with those on here that you want to go out with dignity.
|
My mother suffered from Hodgkinson's Lymphoma (cancer). Chemo failed. She died peacefully at home after a doctor's visit where he gave her an injection (cough) to ease her pain.
My father had dementia and died of thirst in a Nursing Home after they stopped giving him fluids 5 days before.. (!)
My mother in law lived with us - despite dementia -until she was 92 and died two weeks after a stroke - in a hospital . It appeared to be a natural death.
Two out of three ( assisted) deaths...One.. father's.. appeared very cruel..
As living is part of dying and dying is part of living, I shall continue on : trying to keep mind and body fit - as long as I can.
I have no intention of dying like any of the above.. If necessary I shall jump off a bridge into a lake/river and drown. I shall be 112 .
Last edited by: madf on Thu 8 Dec 11 at 19:14
|
My father died of a blood cancer.
In the last few hours of his life although he was unconscious he was extremely restless. I spoke to the staff and mentioned that you would not let an animal suffer in that way. They came into the room made up his bed and gave him an injection. Shortly afterwards he passed away.
When we left him I made the effort to thank the staff who attended him with a knowing nod.
|
The bit many forget is when someone is dying and suffering, there are times when medical staff will 'help'. But we don't officially have euthanasia. But it does happen so to speak.
What we don't have is a service when someone young and relatively healthy decides they want to end it as happens in places like dignitas. I know some of these I refer to are paralysed or whatever and have little real life. But the UK medics can't do anything in these circumstances.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Thu 8 Dec 11 at 19:58
|
|
It tends not to happen too much now, medical staff are terrified of being sued or jailed. Shipman and Beverly Alet have a lot to answer for.
|
|
Oh I don't know Zero I think you'd be surprised.
|
|
Cant say too much, lets just say I have close experience of the "blame game"
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 8 Dec 11 at 20:22
|
|
Likewise I know quite a few people who are there at the 'end', and are involved on various levels. Still goes on as much as it has.
|
My friend Laurie the Leather was murdered by a Doctor ... that's the way I saw it at the time, but I realise now that it was done out of compassion,
He had Prostate Cancer which had spread to his bones (very nasty)
I found out they did it some time later = Diamorphine overdose,
I kind of dispatched my ole mum (88) she was suffering so much and said to me "I want to die",
I told her to stop taking her pills (Warfarin / Digoxine etc., etc.,)
She was dead within a week.
|
I can understand and sympathise with anyone who wants to end their life when they are suffering from a terminal ilness, and I'm fairly sure many doctors help a number on their way out of a sense of compassion.
I can see dangers in legalising it, however. We'd creep from "if you're sure you want to", through "Have you considered", to "Don't you think you really ought to"?
|
If relieving suffering accelerates death then so be it.
Don't underestimate the stimulus to keep breathing that being in terrible pain can offer.
Compared to even 20yrs ago, the ability to alleviate suffering in end-of-life care is vastly better (never perfect of course).
As for compus mentus patients requesting to die due to intolerable quality of life?
Let the courts OK it first on a case-by-case basis I think.
|
|
Once again I agree with what you are saying. Not that it's a surprise if I did mind :-)
|
Spot on RR - the slippery slope argument. I wouldn't trust the state to run it and if you unleash any sort of market forces on the problem it will be appalling.
On the other side of the argument - my grandmother had a stroke, and died 8 days later. I realised afterwards that she had been systematically starved to death. A less cruel method must be better.
Not an easy one as Dutchie says.
I hope that whatever I wish for myself will be with the interests of my dear wife and children foremost. I wouldn't want to knock myself off if I thought it would distress them more than my falling off the perch involuntarily.
Last edited by: Manatee on Thu 8 Dec 11 at 20:37
|
>> On the other side of the argument - my grandmother had a stroke, and died 8 days later. I realised afterwards that she had been systematically starved to death
One of the many reasons why I wouldn't work in a hospital again - the quality of care especially with regard to feeding is/was awful - this is finally appearing to be prioritised in many hospitals but it's far from perfect.
Back when nurses were the meal-givers/empties-taker-awayers we could at least know how the patients were being fed - after this was devolved to non-clinical staff who would simply take away untouched plates I feel many patients were badly let down.
At least if someone's care is substandard in 'my little world' I can take responsibility for it and sort it out/learn from it/be sued/whatever.
I remember one old chap in hospital after a stroke losing about 3 stones after a couple of months - he 'magically' started to recover when his family started bringing him fish'n'chips/pizzas/etc. Nutritional balance is great but it counts for naught if you don't get enough calories.
|
|
Similar experience in France recently - the family/friends are in the patient care thing, my friend was at the mercy of the (generally excellent) staff but his situation (even drinking water) would have been a hundred times worse had his wife (and to a lesser extent me) not been there - she shared a room with him for the duration of his 3 week stay. Both were mightily glad to be home - glad to say he's recovering and was out on his bike last Sunday.
|
|
There was something on the news recently about simple old water being added to the list of things to give patients. Has our world got so bad that we can't remember simple things.... says me with reminders on my phone for lots of things.
|
...There was something on the news recently about simple old water being added to the list of things to give patients...
When I was in for the hip, each patient was given a jug of water each day - it was plonked on your table and topped-up if needed.
As Lygonos says, feeding is done by non-nursing staff who simply put the tray in front of you and take it away 40 minutes later.
Thus the nurses have no close idea about a patient's food intake.
My GP told me nursing has changed a lot since she trained in hospital.
There is now little in the way of direct one-to-one care, or much time spent with the patient.
Paperwork is one reason, but my GP observed many nurses these days spend down time gossiping with each other at the nursing station, rather than wandering about the ward, talking to the patients and generally keeping an eye on things.
As an elective short-stay patient, this arms-length approach was fine by me, but it might not suit everybody or every medical condition.
|
>> dangers in legalising it
You can see why politicians are scared of this question. They don't fancy a flood of murders by impatient relatives or inlaws waiting to get their hands on the estate.
Of course most people would only act out of compassion for someone they loved or anyway felt sorry for. But in a nation of 60 million the other element is also measurable. Read the papers which obviously only cover the tip of the iceberg.
This puts doctors in a difficult position. Can they trust the bereaved not to turn on them in the anger which often accompanies bereavement? Can they trust their discretion? With terminally ill people in hospital the role tends to fall to quite humble nursing staff not all of whom are of high intelligence.
If one was longing to die the thought of having to go to Switzerland to do it might seem more acceptable than it does to me at the moment. But why put the survivors through all that palaver? Opiates are effective if you can get sufficient quantities of a reliable product. You won't find that on the street except at random. And doctors won't prescribe barbiturates in any quantity if at all these days.
Worst of all, would one's resolve falter as the dementia or whatever went slowly overcentre? Would cowardice (or 'the will to live' as some might call it) interfere at the last moment and lumber one's nearest and dearest with a drooling caricature perhaps for years? They won't want to decide for you even after you've become unable to decide for yourself.
Death: don'tcha just see it as the final challenge?
It's not a simple matter. And it has a grim side.
|
>> This puts doctors in a difficult position. Can they trust the bereaved not to turn on them in the anger which often accompanies bereavement?
This is why the courts need to decide on the fates of those who will potentially last for years.
In cases where someone is in the final stages of their lives I'll try to cater for the family's needs but will equally happy stand up in court and give an account of the treatment offered to my patient (hasn't been required...yet).
I think this is the common feeling amongst most in GP-land.
In the real world, family members who complain tend to be those most distant from the final events, whether through feelings of guilt, or because their distance was due to unresolved estrangement.
100 patients/year die (and are born!) in our practice roughly - other than sudden deaths the vast majority end naturally or at least comfortably.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Thu 8 Dec 11 at 20:56
|
>> This is why the courts need to decide on the fates of those who will potentially last for years.
'In view of the foregoing evidence, the Court rules that the Subject may be poisoned, shot, exposed, starved or otherwise permitted to lose his/her life within the stipulated period. And may God have mercy on his/her soul.
'Next case. After that, as it appears to be nearly midday, we will adjourn for luncheon until 3 p.m. We seem to be running slowly this morning.'
See what I mean? Of course many in the legislature could take that sort of thing in their stride. But you wouldn't want to be at the mercy of carphounds like that, would you?
|
It need not be that difficult.
A document drawn up by the patient before life quality or awareness becomes too bad, with say a solicitor who can testify the patient was compos mentis at the time, should cover most occasions. Cases of sudden illness, stroke for example would prove to be more difficult, but could be covered by a will filed somewhere if the patient had thought about it.
|
In the form of living wills this exists already - it's in the actual causation of death that more safeguards are required.
GP + solicitor could conceivably work together to bump people off with little recourse.
I rarely read reports from Judges showing them to be unable to use the law in very sensitive cases - the problem is the law doesn't currently allow the courts to decide to actively end a patient's life.
Such a judgement (IMO) would need to be made with evidence from the patient (either testimony or previous written legal documents if unable to testify), family, relevant doctors and social work.
The final decision should still be a legal judgement.
Several cases exist where doctors have administered treatment with the main aim to end life, and where severe/chronic suffering has been documented the courts usually find such doctors not guilty or admonish them - it is a legal minefiled and not one I would volunteer for without prior legal advice at court level.
|
tinyurl.com/dr-cox-mrs-boyes
One of the most well-known cases.
Attempted murder -> guilty.
Suspended sentence, and not removed from the medical register.
Had the prosecution decided to charge with murder, a guilty verdict would have led to a mandatory life sentence - I think common-sense was probably followed by the CPS.
|
RR and MT spoke for me, politicians have ideas of grandeur enough as it is, i wouldn't want them getting their greedy little corrupt hands on the power this emotive subject could hold.
''my rt hn fiends i have single handedly found the answer to the pensions crisis all ha(e)il me''
|
>>I kind of dispatched my ole mum (88) she was suffering so much and said to me "I want to die",
>>I told her to stop taking her pills (Warfarin / Digoxine etc., etc.
>>
>>
My brother in his early sixties (who had all his marbles ) had lung cancer which spread. After the usual treatments and then several operations etc he eventually said "Thats enough - No more treatment No more operations". He did not last long after that but I class that as a form of Euthanasia.
IMO a brave decision. He was widely respected in his dangerous profession and worked stupid hours all his life only to miss out on retirement.
|
>>he eventually said "Thats enough - No more treatment No more operations". He did not last long after that but I class that as a form of Euthanasia. IMO a brave decision<<
And a wise decision IMO - Lung cancer has one of the lowest survival outcomes of any cancer, unless it is diagnosed early.
|
>> >>he eventually said "Thats enough - No more treatment No more operations". He did not
>> last long after that but I class that as a form of Euthanasia. IMO a
>> brave decision<<
>>
>> And a wise decision IMO - Lung cancer has one of the lowest survival outcomes
>> of any cancer, unless it is diagnosed early.
>>
Totally agree. I am pretty sure he understood the situation.
It started with the intention of removing a small part of a lung but they removed the whole of it. The spread was not contained hence further ops. Yes I soon discovered the survival outcome was poor and it was only about a year from the first opp.
As I was already retired I was at least able to give him support, drive him to /from appointments etc.
|
>>It started with the intention of removing a small part of a lung but they removed the whole of it. The spread was not contained hence further ops<<
That's a great shame, you'd think my removing the diseased Lung, it would have given him a few more years at the very least, but with an aggressive form of Cancer like he had, there was little hope really, once it had metastasized.
In the 'circles I move in', there is a belief that Cancer (some forms of) is a Fungus, and it certainly acts as such, at times.
|
My father also died of blood cancer Fullchat.He got told by doctors that he had about two years to live and they couldn't do anything for him.My dad told me but I don't know why I never took it in what he said to me.He got taken to hospital the day before he died and strange he was full of live.Most of the family went to see him and he passed away in the early morning .
|
|
When you say blood cancer, Tugmaster, do you mean Leukemia?
|
Thats right Dog leukemina sorry if I got mixed up I thought it was the same.
He lived till 78 not a bad age he was a heavy smoker and liked a drink.He did well to make it to that age.A big man but lost a lot of weight in the end.Anyway lets cheer up I am enjoying a nice glass of red wine and snacking on a nice peace of cheddar.>)
|
>>Anyway lets cheer up I am enjoying a nice glass of red wine and snacking on a nice peace of cheddar
What's he done to upset you then?
|
|
Edam would be the healthier option mien Herr
|
"My father had dementia and died of thirst in a Nursing Home after they stopped giving him fluids 5 days before"
A mate's wife took the choice, based on docs advice, to disallow any fluids to her v ill mother earlier this year. Death was anticipated within 3 days. She lived just over two weeks, mate and wife are pretty uncomfortable with that.
|
>>A mate's wife took the choice, based on docs advice, to disallow any fluids to her v ill mother earlier this year. Death was anticipated within 3 days. She lived just over two weeks, mate and wife are pretty uncomfortable with that<<
I (kinda) 'euthanized' my ole mum by suggesting she stops taking all her medication,
but I would never in a million years contemplate suggesting something like that.
|
>> I intend to make a living will, with sufficient money to make it happen.
>>
But although it is legal for you to end your own life, I don't think a will allows your proxy to do it for you.
|
My great aunt was 96 and still iving alone at home with a daily home help.
She had a stroke and was admitted to hospital and the family called as they did not think she would make it through the night. Kept vigil for a week and doctors hinted that there really wasn't any hope for her.
She is now in a nursing home, has just passed her 97th birthday and still doing fine.
Interestingly, she had smoked from the age of 12 until her stroke. Once she came out the stroke, she didn't want to know when she was handed her fags - claimed she had never smoked in her life!
One of the problems is clarifying what constitutes the point of no return? Also, I witness first hand too many families fighting (sometimes literally) whilst their loved one is dying - it would be a helluva decision to place on people especially loved ones.
|
This is more than a little close to me.
I think few of you have an idea of how strong the will to live is when you are parlous situation, and how willing one is to carry on despite the odds. My husband always said much the same as several of you have stated in this thread.
After several months in Cardiac Intensive Care (average stay: 7 hours) , 'harrowing' is quite a good description, things got very sticky.
When asked why he was still there after so much, he thought for a while then mouthed one word. "Hope".
When it was explained what carrying on would involve and the likely quality of life as virtually every organ was struggling, he was asked if he wanted to carry on "Of course" he replied.
Sadly, it was not to be.
When someone lives and breathes for two days with a bp of 40/11, without the help of the ventilator or drugs apart from painkillers - then you appreciate just how strong the will to live is.
He was an astounding man.
If I regret posting this later, I hope the Mods will remove it.
|
I'm pretty certain my ole mam had an ' assisted death ' She was in hospital having been taken in by ambulance 24 hrs earlier. She knew she had an aortic aneurism and we knew it had started to dissect. At 82, there was no hope for her so she was put on a morphine drip.
Swm and I spent the morning by her bed. At lunchtime we decided to pop home, only a few minutes away, and freshen up and eat something.
As we walked through the door the phone rang...it was the nurse to say she had died.
I'm convinced that her painkiller was cranked up once we had left.
That was fine by us if that was the case. She had fallen asleep earlier that morning and just slept herself away with peace and dignity.
Dee, your post moved me a lot, thanks so much. I can only imagine the situation you both were in.
Ted
|
Agreed Ted.
DeeW.
Some of us have been through our own personal hells here so whilst not being crass enough to say we know how you must have felt, and it must have been truly dreadful and will always hurt, we can relate our own deep pains and send you and your late husband our respects.
Your one sentence..''He was an astounding man''..says it all, thankyou for saying your piece here.
|
>> Dee, your post moved me a lot
Yes. Me too. This is not a simple matter, partly because people aren't the same, partly because no one knows how they will react when the heavy final stuff is coming down. Hence, the tiptoeing around by the powers that be. One size, one arrangement, doesn't fit all.
I have seen five people I loved, or liked a lot, on their deathbeds. They all reacted differently to the approaching reaper, none of them quite as one would have expected.
My sister, a Catholic feminist doctor (but pretty sound nevertheless), believes that there is a 'euthanasia lobby' to which, unsurprisingly, she is opposed. I have no supporting evidence, but I wouldn't be totally surprised if she too didn't sometimes slide the morphine dose towards the upper limit.
Glad I'm not responsible for pain and death management. It's bad enough anticipating them as a civilian.
|
Ted, I am reliably informed that in many occasions, a patient will slip away once the family have left the bedside.
Happened to my aunt as well, my uncle had kept a vigil at her bedside for 5 days and nights, he eventually went home to get another suitcase of clothes and in that time she slipped away.
He was distraught and it took my sister, who is a palliative care nurse, to convince him that this was very normal.
|
>> Ted, I am reliably informed that in many occasions, a patient will slip away once
>> the family have left the bedside.
>
This is what happened to both my parents. Were they helped? I don't know.
|
DeeW - thanks for posting this, I believe that where there is life there is hope and make no apology for considering the gift of life to be something we have no moral right to choose to throw away under ANY circumstances, too many in the world have their lives cruelly taken through war, disease and malnutrition for us to toss ours away because we're faced with a challenge - any challenge. It informs my view on the death penalty, charity and the human condition.
Aside from the unashamedly religious context of my position, there is a strong logical argument that allowing euthanasia results in 'scope creep', perhaps emotively I'd cite Nazi Germany as an example. Assisted suicide is the tip of an iceberg and the "Brave New World" is the logical end result.
And I do have experience of close relatives dying long drawn out deaths from cancer, in both cases with a truly inspirational dignity that no 'easy way out' could rival in my opinion.
|
>> hope and make no apology for considering the gift of life to be something we
>> have no moral right to choose to throw away under ANY circumstances,
Sorry fundamentally disagree with that, its your life you can do with it as you wish.
>> the world have their lives cruelly taken through war, disease and malnutrition for us to
>> toss ours away because we're faced with a challenge - any challenge.
Also you do not have the right to dictate how any person can face any challenge.
>> And I do have experience of close relatives dying long drawn out deaths from cancer,
>> in both cases with a truly inspirational dignity that no 'easy way out' could rival
>> in my opinion.
Any many people have experience of people living under thoroughly miserable circumstances when death would be a release.
|
|
Zero, I don't think that my words imply that I assume any right to tell others how to live or end their lives - merely that I hold a view different (and perhaps less popular) view to you on this matter ?
Last edited by: idle_chatterer on Fri 9 Dec 11 at 10:36
|
well its a different view anyway, not sure which is more popular. You did seem to imply tho that someone else has no right to take their own life.
|
...You did seem to imply tho that someone else has no right to take their own life...
Suicide was an offence until not so long ago.
Can't have been many meaningful prosecutions, but I suppose it was a mark of official disapproval.
|
>> Suicide was an offence until not so long ago.
I don't think that worry would be uppermost in someones mind as they jump off a bridge, intent on ending their life.
>> Can't have been many meaningful prosecutions, but I suppose it was a mark of official
>> disapproval.
I don't think anyone who is that close to the edge is worried about other peoples disapproval either. Ridiculous.
|
>> ...You did seem to imply tho that someone else has no right to take their
>> own life...
>>
>> Suicide was an offence until not so long ago.
>>
>> Can't have been many meaningful prosecutions, but I suppose it was a mark of official
>> disapproval.
The fact that its very hard to prosecute a dead person may have something to with it.
|
I think as attempting suicide was a criminal offence, some genius must have decided the act itself should be criminal.
Maybe it made a difference with coroner's inquests?
|
...Maybe it made a difference with coroner's inquests?...
Can't see how, the inquest is independent of a criminal investigation.
As far as I know, suicide has always been a verdict available to the coroner.
If the case merits it, that is the verdict which should be recorded, regardless if the act itself is legal or not.
As a side issue, coroners are generally reluctant to record suicide verdicts, I've seen a few bottle it.
Families don't like suicide verdicts, partly because the life insurance won't pay out.
|
>> As a side issue, coroners are generally reluctant to record suicide verdicts, I've seen a
>> few bottle it.
Is it possible that could be to keep the case open in police records in case some jiggery pokery might come to light years later when yet to be discovered forensic techniques might be available.
|
...Is it possible that could be to keep the case open in police records in case some jiggery pokery might come to light years later when yet to be discovered forensic techniques might be available...
Not really, because the two inquiries are entirely separate.
So an inquest suicide verdict doesn't prevent the police later charging someone with murder, if new evidence comes to light.
Sometimes a coroner's verdict can be at odds with the criminal inquiry.
The police - for many different reasons - may charge no one with killing the person, but the coroner still records the death as 'unlawful killing', assuming that's what he thinks.
At least one 'pack of animals' street attack has gone that way.
|
>> I think as attempting suicide was a criminal offence, some genius must have decided the
>> act itself should be criminal.
>>
>> Maybe it made a difference with coroner's inquests?
Suicide was decriminalised by the Suicide Act 1961. Act applies in England & Wales - it was not an offence in Scotland.
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Eliz2/9-10/60
Section One is a piece of legislation of commendable brevitty.
There is a fuller discussion on Wikipedia:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_Act_1961
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Fri 9 Dec 11 at 13:10
|
...Section One is a piece of legislation of commendable brevity...
So it is:
"The rule of law whereby it is a crime for a person to commit suicide is hereby abrogated."
But they still couldn't resist using the word 'abrogated', the meaning of which one could guess in this context, but I would still need to check to be certain:
www.thefreedictionary.com/abrogated
|
>> But they still couldn't resist using the word 'abrogated', the meaning of which one could
>> guess in this context, but I would still need to check to be certain:
>>
>> www.thefreedictionary.com/abrogated
To be fair it was fifty years ago. As there no repeal I conclude the offence removed was at Common Law; probably a standard draftsman's 'catch all' at the time.
|
...I conclude the offence removed was at Common Law...
Agreed, the phrase 'the rule of law whereby...' is another clue - there's no mention of the 'Suicide is Illegal Act of 1821' because there isn't one.
And to be even fairer, 'abrogate' is the correct word for the job.
|
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-east-wales-16109865
Not quite what we've been talking about but an interesting case nonetheless.
|
|
There, but for the grace of God ...
|
|
My symphaty to you DeeW.Not easy to discuss this subject.The will to live is very strong,after my operation I got a infection and i could feel my body shutting down.If that is the right word.I knew that if I had given in that would have been it.There was always a voice in my head don't give up.I have been lucky up to now again my condolences.
|
When I saw this film 35 years ago it made a lasting impression on me and I've watched the film many times since,
The death scene with Edward G Robinson still brings a tear to my eye, I would choose to go this way,
when the time comes for the long goodbye.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYTIgcMRdbU&feature=related
|
|
I hope you have the choice Dog so do I.When the times comes I look at it as another journey and maybe I be a better person in the next one.If it is all black so be it, we are all soon forgotten and maybe remenberd by some.
|
I reckon we'll meet up on 'the other side' Dutchie, or we knew each other in a previous life,
I have a friend who reads the tea leaves, reckons I was a Roman Centurion in a past life ;)
|
You'll rot away and your immortality will continue, making up half of a 2 metre long spiral strand of atoms inside every cell of your offspring.
Nothing else comes close to making sense.
|
>>You'll rot away and your immortality will continue, making up half of a 2 metre long spiral strand of atoms inside every cell of your offspring<<
Yep! - I'll go along with that, but my soul/spirit/atma will know permanence.
|
|
Anything could happen to anyone of us here and none of the others would be any the wiser...makes you think.
|
|
We'll have to construct some kind of virtual ouija board to contact absent friends
|
This place is a virtual ouija board
"is there anybody out there"
|
|
Ah my simple yet faithful follower.
|
>>
>> I have a friend who reads the tea leaves, reckons I was a Roman Centurion
>> in a past life ;)
>>
Funny how everyone who reckons they had a previous life had an important position, Centurion, Leader, Artist or explorer. No one ever claims to have been a mere peasant.
|
|
I think dog was baldrick in a previous life actually.
|
>> dog was baldrick in a previous life actually.
Heh heh...
I was 'a very naughty boy'...
|
|
Problem with reincarnation is a mathematical one . There are more people alive now than have ever existed before. Some of us must be originals
|
|
Some of us are reincarnated more than once, concurrently!
|
>> Some of us must be originals
Not if we started as bacteria and worked our way up through insects, mice etc to the 'pinnacle of creation', like Hindus...
As we did, biologically, come to think of it.
|
Euthanasia. - mikeyb
