Which ones are still fitted with traditional torque converters?
I can confirm following
Kia Cee'd
Suzuki SX4
IIRC Suzuki still fits TC in all its cars. But Kia started using DSG style in some its range (Sportage/Sorento ?)
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Land Rover Freelander2
Toyota Avensis diesel
Also all other Land Rover products.
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Isn't all Toyotas are MMT nowadays?
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>> Isn't all Toyotas are MMT nowadays?
>>
>>
Not the Avensis diesel.
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"But Kia started using DSG style in some its range (Sportage/Sorento ?)"
Not yet - first twin-clutch in Hyundai/Kia will be Veloster
Ford Fiesta is still TC (but it's not liked)
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New Honda Civic looks like it will have TC.
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My i10 has one - and so does the i20 but don't know about models higher up the range.
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Which are fitted with torque converter?, the ones which pull away smoothly and can be controlled properly when manoeuvering..;)
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>> Which are fitted with torque converter?, the ones which pull away smoothly and can be
>> controlled properly when manoeuvering..;)
>>
Hear, hear to that comment. I haven't driven a car with a DSG box but they appear from what I've read and from friends that they aren't all that clever in so many ways.
It's all very well boasting of milliseconds changes of gear but if they can't be driven smoothly in very crowded town conditions without jolting and lurching then they're of little use. People can obviate some of these problems by adopting special techniques etc. but why should one have to?
Many cars have gone back, I believe for new mechatronic units or software updates but I would rather have a conventional auto box with a torque converter.
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I didn't much like the DSG in the Skoda Superb I tried, but pulling away smoothly wasn't a problem. In fact it would have been great in town if there'd been an easier way to get it into and out of N at traffic lights. Some VAG cars will hold themselves on a hill, so perhaps this one would have done that if I'd known how.
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Oldgit. I'm also an old git and don't generally fare all that well with gizmos...am always the last to get whatever it is that everyone else has.
But as well as having the i10, we have a DSG Yeti petrol. Certainly a bit different from the Hyundai's box, but really not as bad as you might think. It's only a 1.2 but most people would be surprised to find how.....well, yes, I'll say......quite quick...it is. If there is a downside with the DSG it's getting used to pulling away from stationary, or taking up the drive after slowing for a hazard.....there is a slightly discernible delay and you do need to feather the throttle rather than just stamp on the gas and go. Once on the go it's faultless with compete automatic operation with seamless, quick, smooth changes or very comprehensive manual control, which is easy to use and effective. The Yeti is much, much quicker and quieter than the Hyundai, and just as economical, yet they're both 1.2. Quite amazing really.
The diesel Yeti has a slightly different box with, I believe, 2 wet clutches rather than 2 dry clutched in mine. Haven't driven one, so might be a bit different?
Some complain about the automatic release when holding it on hills......and yes, it does let go if you labour at almost standstill on a hill - but you learn not to. I do know gb doesn't like them as he has to manouevre them on transporters and finds it a problem. But not having to do that, I find it, generally, no problem and rather like it.
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>> >> Which are fitted with torque converter?, the ones which pull away smoothly and can
>> be
>> >> controlled properly when manoeuvering..;)
>> >>
>> Hear, hear to that comment. I haven't driven a car with a DSG box but
>> they appear from what I've read and from friends that they aren't all that clever
>> in so many ways.
>> It's all very well boasting of milliseconds changes of gear but if they can't be
>> driven smoothly in very crowded town conditions without jolting and lurching then they're of little
>> use. People can obviate some of these problems by adopting special techniques etc. but why
>> should one have to?
I'm not sure what special techniques you are refering to here ?
When driving a manual car do you consider easing off the throttle while operating the clutch pedal and gear lever a special technique ? If you stay on the throttle and release the clutch the car jolt and jerk just like these automated manuals do.
I agree the fine control a TC offers in confined space is easier to work with than the method required in the newer gearboxes
>> Many cars have gone back, I believe for new mechatronic units or software updates but
>> I would rather have a conventional auto box with a torque converter.
>>
I would love a lovely big grumbly V8 but even BMW have had to throw in the towel and drop their creamy, smooth six for a turbo charged four. You want a TC you're either going to pay for it (if enough people still want them) or manufacturers are going to have to come up with something that competes in emissions and taxation terms.
Last edited by: gmac on Wed 30 Nov 11 at 17:14
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>> Which are fitted with torque converter?, the ones which pull away smoothly and can be
>> controlled properly when manoeuvering..;)
>>
Audi multitronic also qualifies on that score. (I think that the BMW torque converter boxes have the edge for low-speed manoeuvering, though)
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I think all BMWs except some of the M models are fitted with Torque Converter automatics. BMW use a twin clutch 7 speed automatic called DKG (BMW speak for the DSG type box) on the M3 and on the E90 335i which has sadly been dropped for the F30, which uses 8 speed torque converter boxes across the range.
On the other hand I've just been out for a spin in my colleague's new 520d which also has the 8 speed box and it's very very nice. Lightening fast changes which are only noticeable from the rev counter and a diesel engine that revs like a petrol engine.
Made me wonder what else I could possibly need in a car. Oh yes of course, 6 cylinders...
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>>really not as bad as you might think<<
Well, after 125 years of automotive development and progress I'm afraid that's really not good enough.
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That article reminds me of why I stopped buying UK car magazines. The Ford PowerShift system is not an automated manual transmission. It is a purpose designed automatic transmission using the dual clutch principle, as is the VW DSG system.
These systems are complex, but offer very fast gear changing and are more efficient than torque converter boxes as the torque converter slips which wastes energy. They are also lighter - though the latest generation ZF products come very close in that respect.
Automated manual systems such as the ones in the Fiat Panda and Toyota Auris basically use a conventional manual geabox with actuators to move the gear selectors and operate the clutch. They don't work near as well as purpose designed automatics but are simple and cheap.
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>> Automated manual systems such as the ones in the Fiat Panda and Toyota Auris basically
>> use a conventional manual geabox with actuators to move the gear selectors and operate the
>> clutch. They don't work near as well as purpose designed automatics but are simple and
>> cheap.
A purpose designed gear lever is much lighter, simpler and cheaper.
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>> A purpose designed gear lever is much lighter, simpler and cheaper.
Indeed it is, and I am still trying to convince Mrs. B. that small cars with manual transmission are so easy to drive these days that an automatic is totally unnecessary.
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>> Indeed it is, and I am still trying to convince Mrs. B. that small cars
>> with manual transmission are so easy to drive these days that an automatic is totally
>> unnecessary.
>>
Not so sure about that BP, keep reading posts from people who despite umpteen years of car ownership never having had a clutch problem, are now experiencing clutch failure in short order on their latest model.
I find some modern cars not particularly good to drive easily, i end up stalling the things too often for my own liking, leading to higher revs and feeding (slipping) the clutch every time.
Not always small cars either...
It's probably me but for example when i drive the pool Mondeo Diesel i stall the damned thing several times (underwhelmed would be an optimistic opinion of mine for the whole car by the way) and Mondeo's do suffer from DMF failures in some cases, whereas i don't recall stalling a BMW Diesel ever and they don't suffer clutch or DPF problems as a rule....might be a connection.
One of the nicest little automatic cars i found to drive was the Matiz fitted with a proper TC auto box, could there be a better value town car?
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>> It's probably me but for example when i drive the pool Mondeo Diesel i stall
>> the damned thing several times
Yes, I tend to stall Ford diesels, though they do seem to have got better - or maybe I have, though it's a problem I only seem to suffer with Fords. I had a particular tendency to stall Focus TDCIs changing from 1st to 2nd gear.
TBH I've not tried a small car with automatic transmission. Mrs. B. very much likes the Suzuki Splash, but automatic (torque converter) is a 3,000 Euro option and used ones with automatic are like hens' teeth.
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Mrs. B. very much likes>> the Suzuki Splash,
Looked for a Swift intead?
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>> Looked for a Swift intead?
Yes, tried a Swift. I loved it, very sporty with direct steering, gokart handling, revvy engine and a low seating position. Mrs. B. hated it. Oddly for much the same reasons.
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Mrs. B. hated it. Oddly for much the same reasons.
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That's a pity and most unusual, seem to be well liked by the ladies normally.
I belive Vauxhalls version of Splash (Agila) is/was available with proper auto as well as mutleytronic gearbox from hell, is there better availability with a Vauxhall badged model?
Chevvy Spark might be worth looking to see if an auto is available where you live, far as i know there is no auto option in UK.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Fri 2 Dec 11 at 12:08
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The DSG type systems are not without their faults though. On some of the other forums there has been mention of problems when trying to manoeuvre slowly on a hill into a parking space or in slow moving traffic. In order to prevent the clutches overheating in situations like that they can disengage, not good!
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In order to prevent the clutches
>> overheating in situations like that they can disengage, not good!
>>
Sounds likely, i got stuck in half an inch of snow last year in a truck with an automanual box, after several minutes of rocking it back and forth (waste of time as it takes too long to select) trying to get going it shut down and wouldn't select anything, teapot made of chocolate.
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This is water we're dipping our toes into. After years of happy ownership of torque converter autos, we've swapped Mrs OBs car to a C4 GP 1.6HDI with the EGS automated manual box We've done this mostly for reasons of better fuel economy and lower tax bands.
First impressions after 500 miles from me: it's much smoother at low speeds than a VW 7 speed DSG box (which was unacceptably jerky IMO), but the gear changes are quite noticeable for the driver, in terms of feeling the power stolen from under your foot whilst the gear is changed, especially if you want to make quick progress in low gears. It's all very smooth as a passenger mind.
However, switch it to manual mode and do all the gear changes by hand and it works brilliantly, with quicker swapping of ratios than a true manual and no clutch to bother with, it's great when used in this way.
FWIW, neither me nor Mrs OB want to drive true manuals any more, me because of a dodgy left leg, and Mrs OB because she can't be bothered. Which is fair enough, I think.
Whether or not we'll return to TC autos (if they're available!) will depend on how reliable the EGS box is...
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New automatics still fitted with torque converter? - andyfr
