I received my first ever parking ticket last week.
Parked in a loading bay outside one of our Charity Shops, in a Transit van with the charity logo on the side.
The sign stated loading only between 09.00 and 17.30.
I parked the van and unloaded 53 boxes into the front shop.
I then locked the van and proceeded to take the 53 boxes from the front of the shop to the back area where the boxes were going to be emptied and then I would load the cardboard back onto the van.
A Council traffic warden witnessed that for 14 mins the van was left unattended and apparently, totally unknown to me, if the warden witnesses no movement in a 10 min period then it is deemed that the vehicle is parked rather than loading.
From the appeal reply:
"The Parking Attendant is required to observe a vehicle for at least 10 minutes to ensure that it is not being used for loading or unloading. In this instance the Parking Attendant observed your vehicle for 14 minutes and did not observe loading or unloading taking place.
While loading and unloading is acceptable at this location, the Parking Attendant must witness the movement of goods during his/her observation time. In this instance the vehicle was deemed to be parked as no goods were observed being unloaded.
I immediately appealed and they have rejected my appeal stating the above. They know its Charity etc but that didn't matter.
I have sent another appeal away but expect that to fall on deaf ears.
If I had knowingly done wrong I would accept it but I had no idea that the definition of loading was as shown above. I have a right bee in my bonnet about this and feel like fighting it all the way.
What is more annoying is that the Council's Community Service Team came into the shop last week and painted it for us and all the time they were in, their Transit vans were left for hours on end in this loading bay. I did mention this in my appeal but it seems to have been ignored.
Has anyone ever taken a Penalty Charge Notice the full way and won or should I just pay the £30 and get on with life?
Maybe I am just having a bad day at work.....
|
I think the council are being very fair about it actually. After all you were not loading the van, you were working in the shop.
Pay up!
|
|
Zero is right but, if you are a gambling man, you could make a formal appeal. Over 50% are successful but on the scenario you have outlined I don't fancy your chances
|
I fully sympathise, i tried to remain in sight of my vehicle parked in unloading areas whilst staff were inspecting cars etc whilst i slurped coffee and checked out the showroom or local 'scenery'..;), sods law dictates the second you are out of view along comes the warden.
You've tried a reasonable appeal it hasn't worked, it's just one of those things, could have been worse could have been England and a neanderthal clamper caught you out with £200 ''penalty'' payable...cash only mate.
|
Ignore Zero. He's just teasing you.
If you can be bothered, persist. Remembering at all times to communicate swiftly enough to keep the conversation going, so they can't bump the penalty up by saying you haven't paid it. If they say you have to write a formal letter to a person with a West African name in the parking office, do so. And repeat your reference to the (very helpful and charitable I must say) council chaps who helped with the painting and left their vehicle quite illegally for several hours.
It's quite possible they will give up in the end. But you won't get a lawyer and escalate the situation will you? That would be a mistake. It's only 30 quid after all, not even enough for a bottle of decent coke-dealer's champagne...
|
I have to load and unload at at central London location regularly. It has loading bays but after 11.00 it becomes a pedestrian precinct. If I need to be there after that time I find an advance tenner and a friendly smile to the traffic warden works wonders...In fact I think he rather looks forward to those days. And so the world goes round...
:-))
|
>> I think the council are being very fair about it actually. After all you were
>> not loading the van, you were working in the shop.
>>
>> Pay up!
>>
Spot on. You were deliberately obstructing a loading area. You were not unloading a motor vehicle, you were moving boxes around your shop.
|
>> Spot on. You were deliberately obstructing a loading area.
But Mapmaker (and Zero and others): why in the name of something very unholy do any of you give a fish's tit for the vile interfering council and its money-grubbing parking jobsworths?
Parking enforcement and its associated wonks and carphounds are the enemy.
Are you people motorists or tremulous maiden aunts who think 2 miles over the limit (or 2 mg come to that) is lawbreaking on a level with rape, murder and piracy?
TCHAH!
and TCHAH!
|
I parked on a street local to me with parking restrictions. I always thought they applied in the evening for residents. But on once side they were for all day! Doh. I got a ticket and got back to the car (after less than 10 minutes away!) just as the ticket was printed.
I pointed out the yellow lines were faded and asked about the car parked illegally on the corner that they hadn't ticketed. The latter annoyed me more - I was done and they weren't. And the car park opposite was full of cars/vans belonging to businesses and yet it's a public car park.
They told me the Volvo hadn't been there long enough... so annoyed with myself and the illegal Volvo.... I came back later. Volvo still there. So I reported it. And then next day. and the next day. and the next day. I also asked for the lines to be repainted and the car park to have a restriction to have how long you can park, i.e. pay and display.
Kicked up enough reasons for them to let me off. I still think the lines need repainting (they still do), the car park to be available and that the rules are applied to all (like the Volvo).
That saved £30. Expensive sandwich stop at the local deli otherwise.
|
|
It's worth 30 quid to watch AC's explosion ! Nothing to lose in appealing it, realistically unlikely to get off with it though. I wouldn't have dropped the CS guys in it though. They probably had a Nelsonian eye turned to them, or there was no enforcement in your street that day.
|
If £30 is the discounted rate I'd pay up now before it turns into the £60 that's actually the penalty.
I've some experience of the parking appeals systems in England and there's no way you'd get this one past an adjudicator. They're scrupulously fair but equally know all the excuses - this one ain't going to float!!
I doubt it's much different in Scotland.
|
Still the case that a good proportion of council paperwork is flawed or non compliant especially further down the process one goes, Notice to Owner and so on.
No harm in nipping over to Pepipoo and posting your tale on the Council parking thread.
You may find the council in question has flawed paperwork or is an habitual appeal loser.
From that point only would I decide to open my wallet or not.
If councils cannot follow laid down procedures set by statute why should you.
As always
Mark
|
I would stress in your appeal that you were shifting boxes from the back of the shop to the front in order to load them back onto the van. It's fair and reasonable for a delivery driver to deliver to and collect from a specific area inside a building - and from a security point of view you wouldn't want the van to be left with the doors open whilst it was out of your sight.
Being a charity shop staffed by volunteers, is it possible that you were the only physically fit person on the premises capable of moving the heavy boxes? So the loading wasn't complete until everything was in the back area of the shop, and it wasn't reasonable for you to dump all the boxes in the front and just scarper.
But - you said the warden observed the van for 14 minutes. For how long (honestly) was the van left unattended? If it was there for half an hour before the warden came along and measured another 14 minutes then I don't think you've got much of a case, unfortunately.
Last edited by: Dave_TDCi on Tue 1 Nov 11 at 21:37
|
Next time instead of unloading all the boxes at once unload a proportion of them so you aren't away from the van too long?
|
I'd have thought unloading 53 boxes (and then locking the van) and then moving them all risked there being fewer than 53 boxes left to move.
And if it was okay to leave them on the pavement, could the van have been left open?
Just thinking about your next delivery Bobby! :-)
|
Should have been:
Box,shop,box,shop,box ,shop
Not box,box,box pavement as at the lkast box you are no longer unloading.
Nevertheless I would consider taking it to the Parking Adjudicator... he may have a heart.
DVD
|
AC is right - keep arguing.
I don't think it is true to say that you were not loading, you were moving stuff in your shop while parked. There is a good case for saying that if you are delivering goods in dedicated travel containers which have to be emptied and returned in the same vehicle, then the whole process constitutes unloading.
We collect unwanted furniture from premises. When the van is parked to load up, "loading" includes getting the stuff down the stairs. The wardens wouldn't seriously want us to stack the entire contents of the house or shop on the pavement, and then go and get the van so that the "loading" time can be cut to 10 minutes.
|
>> I don't think it is true to say that you were not loading, you were
>> moving stuff in your shop while parked.
Moving stuff around in the shop is not loading or unloading, its moving stuff around in the shop.
>> There is a good case for saying that
>> if you are delivering goods in dedicated travel containers which have to be emptied and
>> returned in the same vehicle, then the whole process constitutes unloading.
Really - it doesn't - Loading or unloading is very specific,
> get the van so that the "loading" time can be cut to 10 minutes.
In this case there is no 10 minute maximum, merely that no loading or unloading activity was seen for 14 minutes.
|
>>
>> Really - it doesn't - Loading or unloading is very specific,
>>
Quite possibly. But all definitions are challengable, and become extended or modified over time.
I daresay unloading heating oil through a pipe wasn't within the strict definition once, but practice has presumably made it so. Shortly the definition will have to be argued again - does charging up a battery car constitute "loading" it?
Does unloading only mean getting something off the van and onto the pavement, or is the time it takes to carry it inside included? What about the time it takes to get the equipment off the special truck and return it to the lorry?
Supposing the goods have to be checked and signed for before the driver can leave - is that unloading?
Etc. Nothing is absolutely rigid, everything becomes flexible by argument. This particular argument is that emptying containers and returning them to the van is part of the unloading process.
|
>>
>> Etc. Nothing is absolutely rigid, everything becomes flexible by argument. This particular argument is that
>> emptying containers and returning them to the van is part of the unloading process.
Your getting delivery mixed up with unloading. They are treated under parking conditions as two distinct things.
Been involved in the management of delivery (or rather receipt) of all sorts of kit in London lots of times, and you always had to have a system to get the driver away as soon as kit is physically off the pavement. loading can take as long as you like, we once received 700 20 kilo boxes ( took an hour or two) but active all the time.
You cant have lorries and vans blocking up the highway while the driver then turns into stock boy or unpacker inside. Thereby lies the road to chaos.
Amazes me how many people on here are happy to break the law (some of them very reasonable laws) then whine when they get caught and have to pay a (not very big) fine.
Break the law by all means, get away with by all means and I will applaud you, but take the medicine like a man when it comes, not some spoilt brat. After all at the end of the day, you get away with it often enough to make it worth while, so just shrug your shoulders and say "pah got caught that time"
If we didn't have enforced parking laws, there would be chaos. ( I agree there are too many parking restrictions, but in some places its vital)
|
The charity involved should now go all out to extract as many grants, payments etc as possible from the council to try to obtain a net loss to the council.
Then get the local press in on the story. "Local council screws charity", "stupid council ends up wasting money" etc.
Forget the normal channels of appeal, Mr. Scrooge usually runs those departments.
|
>> Forget the normal channels of appeal, Mr. Scrooge usually runs those departments.
>>
The final step in parking appeals in England and Wales is to a judicial tribunal. Completely independent of the Council; adjudicator appointments require the approval of the Lord Chancellor.
Organisation is slightly different in Scotland as the LC's remit does not run there but the principle is the same.
|
Appealing a Council Parking Ticket - Zero
