I have just done a basic search for Ford Sierra , country wide, on Ebay and got only 23 hits.
Just six were non Cosworths and of those six at least couple were silly prices.
I have noticed that MK I Mondeos have all but dissappeared in my area.
I guess the scrappage scam has decimated many older cars.
What older cars are surviving in any numbers ? Volvos?
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Montegos, was nearly half a million on UKs roads at one point, now the last time I checked there was just a few hundred.
Lada Rivas were also very common, now rare.
Fiesta MK3s are now becoming rare, 5 years ago they were about the most common car on the road, now I only see a couple a day.
Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Tue 27 Sep 11 at 16:51
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Omegas seem to be dying out rapidly, shame as I'd like another.
Mk3 Cavaliers very rare to see a pre facelift one now - although did see an immaculate G plater the other day.
Rover 600 or 800 a very rare sight now.
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www.howmanyleft.co.uk
Looks like there are now 507 Montegos left on the road.
4205 Capris left though :-)
Last edited by: mikeyb on Tue 27 Sep 11 at 17:47
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>> 4205 Capris left though :-)
Not so many reverse rake rear window Consul Capris though, thick metal didn't rust but something must have happened to them along with all the Consuls and Zephyrs and Anglias of all three main shapes and Cortinas and Veloxes and Victors and Crestas not to mention Vauxhall 25s and Straight-Eight Daimlers and Sunbeam-Talbots and Standards and Armstrong Siddelys of every stripe and those prewar small Opels launched in the late 40s as Moskvitches all the machinery having been taken over and moved East... and need I go on?
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>> That was the Classic: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Consul_Classic
>> The Capri: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ford_Consul_Capri.jpg
Quite right bt, I had conflated in some way those two variants of the same rust-resistant body (in the folklore of the time). Ford had a thing for those rear windows, not just the last Anglia but a huge great Lincoln of those days too, one being featured in the movie 'Five Easy Pieces'...
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>>conflated
I had to look that one up. ;>)
I'll dispute your statement of 'rust-resistant body'. The Classic I had couldn't keep the damn side-lights in place because of tin-worm. I had a helluva problem sourcing the steering idler gearbox bearings (plastic) as well, at the time.
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The 1340cc engine on these was dire. You could hear them coming hundreds of yards away due to big & little ends rattling merrily way.
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>> Rover 600 or 800 a very rare sight now.
There's an immaculate F reg maroon 800 Sterling on a (bungalow) drive near me; looks fantastic. Never seen it move though.
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>> >> Rover 600 or 800 a very rare sight now
A Rover 600 ti used in the Autocar roadtest (reg L600 ROV) was in the classic ads a few weeks ago. A former colleague has a P-reg one with 150k miles on it, the thing just refuses to die.
I had a nose around a traditional scrapyard (i.e. stacked 3 high) at the weekend, most cars in there were S registered or newer. In some cases a lot newer :( It certainly seems at a casual glance that more than 90% of cars aren't reaching their 14th birthdays.
Last edited by: Dave_TDCi on Tue 27 Sep 11 at 17:57
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The Fiesta is doing well then, will be officially 14 in December, although build wise it is a lot older than that. It was built in early 96 but is on an R plate.
I suspect is is the complex electrical systems killing most the newer cars, and perhaps cambelt failures.
In the case of Montegos it must have been the rust which got them. My late granddads lasted to 120,000 miles but was a complete rust bucket at just ten years old.
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You don't see any Mk ! Renault 5s about now....Le Car......I've had a few, loved them.....but the rust was the killer.
Never see a 6, had a couple of them too........wouldn't say no to another good one.
All older Renaults scarce now, from 8s up to 30s.
Ted
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Granadas - saw an R reg today, probably 6 months since I last saw another - is it rust or something big like an auto gearbox failure that sends them to the grave?
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Just a limited market for old large cars, they cost too much to run in terms of fuel unless you a get away driver who steals fuel anyway.
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>>more than 90% of cars aren't reaching their 14th birthdays.
Considering the advancements in Engineering, manufacturing and rustproofing thats a sad statement, considering 70s built cars regularly reached into their late teens before the tin-worms ate them!
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I think cars have become more like domestic appliances in that the cost to repair now outstrips the percieved value so good motors get scrapped when they suffer a costly failiure.
In years gone by cars were cheaper to fix at home in your garage - now people just scrap em.
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You're exactly right but the trick with very old bangers is not to do the bare minimum to keep it legal. I am pretty sure if a different person bought that Fiesta it would have been scrapped on its 2009 MOT when it needed a lot of work.
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>> I think cars have become more like domestic appliances in that the cost to repair
>> now outstrips the percieved value so good motors get scrapped when they suffer a costly
>> failiure.
>>
>> In years gone by cars were cheaper to fix at home in your garage -
>> now people just scrap em.
>>
I've said it before, and Ill say it again....
Many of today's cars will not make it to their tenth birthday, as they will be uneconomic to repair.
ECU's sensors, fuel system components, etc plus labour to fix will kill them off.
With the new high pressure injection petrol engines, the fuel pipe must be replaced if the joints are released.... IIRC on a Merc CGI engine those pipes cost around £2-3 grand!
If they are not replaced there is a high risk of high pressure fuel leaking over the engine... leading to fire....
As I say, old cars will be a very rare sight in the not to distant future.
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Makes me quite glad the most complex system on the Panda is the power steering system, although it does use canbus. Is the main reason I choose it though, I didn't want any complex and expensive systems to replace. It also does have a 3 way cat, which can be expensive to fix but modern cars have had this for the past 7 years or more.
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Canbus in my experience is neither reliable nor cheap to repair.
It can be extremely difficult to diagnose problems, often requiring new components to be fitted just for testing. These are sometimes locked to that vehicle was fitted and coded.
Give me wires, switches and basic relays any day.
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The problem is I think it is pretty much a legal requirement for mainstream cars, so it is hard to buy a car without it these days. Even trams and buses use this system now. It is canbus which will kill most modern cars.
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considering 70s built
>> cars regularly reached into their late teens before the tin-worms ate them!
>>
They didn't have to put up with punitive VED rates for larger engines, and as has been said elsewhere were eminently fixable by the average DIY man.
I remember going to motor factors back in the 1980's when I was in the trade, you could buy virtually everything for anything back then; of course there weren't so many different models around then and they weren't radically changed year on year as seems to be the case today.
There are also a helluva lot of cheap cars for sale, many probably second cars no longer affordable in these difficult times; and it's a fact that we live in an increasingly throw-away society.
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>> Granadas - saw an R reg today, probably 6 months since I last saw another
>> - is it rust or something big like an auto gearbox failure that sends them
>> to the grave?
>>
Funny you should say that, saw a rather nice Mark 2 estate on the M4 today just past Pont Abraham services; always thought them a very handsome car. Think the dipsomaniac fuel consumption was a major factor in their demise.
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>>
>> You don't see any Mk ! Renault 5s about now....>>
>> All older Renaults scarce now, from 8s up to 30s.
>>
Elderly neighbours of ours had a Mk1 5 5-door festering in their over-grown bungalow drive for yonks. I kept meaning to investigate the chances of restoring it, but never did. Activity in the garden should have allerted me to do something, but I didn't. It's gone now, together with the old roof tiles on the bungalow, probably to that big car park in the sky. 1 fewer 5.
Tenants of ours have a late (C-reg) R4 in their drive that looks immobile - have made a file note to investigate if they ever vacate.
Conversely a chap near us drives an early white R12 on a daily basis, even in the winter. But it's wings are bubbling suspiciously and I fear for it's future.
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>> I had a nose around a traditional scrapyard (i.e. stacked 3 high) at the weekend,
>> most cars in there were S registered or newer. In some cases a lot newer
>> :( It certainly seems at a casual glance that more than 90% of cars aren't
>> reaching their 14th birthdays.
Ironic really. Rust, the thing which used to kill cars, has been all but eliminated, and in its place are complex systems and components which don't take much going wrong at all to throw a four figure bill.
These systems give infinitely better day to day reliability than anything that has gone before, but when they do go wrong, the resulting fault is often immobilising, and expensive to repair.
If our old Grand Scenic (thankfully no longer our problem) reaches its tenth birthday without becoming an economic write off, I will genuinely be amazed. It ran close enough to need to think about it a couple of times at 4 yrs old.
Last edited by: DP on Wed 28 Sep 11 at 19:05
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>> Mk3 Cavaliers very rare to see a pre facelift one now - although did see
>> an immaculate G plater the other day.
....but it always cheers me up when I do see one as I've got a F-reg tucked in the back of the garage but sadly on SORN for the time being. 1988 seems like yesterday!
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Banger racing seems to decimate most Sierras. tinyurl.com/3vawsbk
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The Cit BX is a rare sight now. Even in France for hols we only saw one or two.
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"The Cit BX is a rare sight now"
Indeed, although odly I have seen the same one twice this week just a few miles up the road - never seen it before!
Even Xantias (the youngest of which are 10 years old now) are not all that common - do not see them coming the other way that often anymore.
Given that new car reg is about 2M / year, and there are about 20M cars, that suggests an average life of 10 years - so there will be a pretty steep cliff around X/Y plate cars that drop off - so anything out of production by then will be disapperaring fast. There are only a few older cars then my X reg Xantia in the works car park - and I'm hoping for another 4 years yet!
Last edited by: RichardW on Tue 27 Sep 11 at 22:32
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>>>Even Xantias (the youngest of which are 10 years old now) are not all that common
Agreed except there is a blip in the fens where you will several on a daily basis. I think ride is so important on the apalling roads so folks hold onto them a bit longer. Friends of ours still run my '98 TD estate and Dad's '98 TD hatch. Both rust free & smooth riding.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Wed 28 Sep 11 at 07:21
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We have a mix of town and country so I see the following fairly regularly.
3 litre Capri.
Cortina Mark 3.
Xantias.
An occasional XM estate - HUGE.
Original Mini
Ford Escorts.
Peugeot 205 - standard and GTI
Mercedes 300E (neighbour)
Citroen AX
MGBs
And loads of Land Rovers dating back to the 1979s or earlier.
Tractors? Standard Tractor anyone?
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>> The Cit BX is a rare sight now. Even in France for hols we only
>> saw one or two.
>>
Hadn't seen one for ages, then yesterday evening saw a BX, an early Cavalier mk3 and a Rover 600!
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>> The Cit BX is a rare sight now. Even in France for hols we only
>> saw one or two.
>>
A guy at my former company had one. A 1.4 petrol on an F plate. Still used as a daily driver and still as reliable as clockwork.
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The newer older cars (if that makes sense) 2001 onwards will disappear more quickly once the Government start playing with the VED rates.
Anything over 150g/km will become prohibitively expensive to tax let alone fuel. Nobody will want them before the repair bills get them.
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There's a Citroen agent on the outskirts of Limoges with a field full of (a few) BXs and (loads of) Xantias, all looking in pretty good order and all killed by the French version of the scrappage scam. It's a disgrace. If the results of the previous version of a scrappage scheme here are anything to go by, they'll still be there 10 years from now.
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Stoopid with scrap steel £250/tonne
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Considering how popular the fiesta is, I can't remember the last time I saw a Mk2, let alone one of the originals.
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Funny you should say that RR. A Mk 1 Fiesta was waiting behind me while I filled with petrol at Tescos this afternoon. Tappets weren't half rattling.
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I suggest that the 1990s were the Golden Era for cars. They didn't rust, they weren't over-complicated. There are cars being broken on ebay that are 6 years old that have a failed engine. Barking.
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>> I suggest that the 1990s were the Golden Era for cars.
Couldn't agree more, my sister is still running our old Volvo 740td estate which we were daft enough to sell.
No rust, simple tough and reliable as can be, not a computer or ECU in sight, VW LT van 6 cyl turbodiesel with mechanical pump and injectors that go one forever, 4 speed manual with switchable overdrive to make 5 gears, RWD like all proper cars..;)
When it does go wrong it's usually something simple and their handy bloke fixes it for pennies.
Kicked ourselves?, do ducks swim?
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>> I suggest that the 1990s were the Golden Era for cars. They didn't rust, they
>> weren't over-complicated. There are cars being broken on ebay that are 6 years old that
>> have a failed engine. Barking.
>>
Agree 100%, I'm sticking with 90s tech. as long as possible, easy to check ECU trouble codes, none of this coding parts to the car scam.
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I'd say late 80s to early 90s pre-catalyst cars hit the sweet spot of good design, build, technology and simplicity. Obviously the emissions from carburetted engines are nothing to shout about, but you could always get a broken-down car going again with a screwdriver, a hammer and a bit of swearing. By the time catalyst-equipped cars came into my price range I was driving diesels, in fact I've only had 3 petrol cars with cats and they've been a legal requirement since 1993 :)
Last edited by: Dave_TDCi on Wed 28 Sep 11 at 16:30
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>> I'd say late 80s to early 90s pre-catalyst cars hit the sweet spot of good
>> design, build, technology and simplicity.
I would agree. There was an interesting period between 1990 and 1992 when many cars were available in cat and non-cat versions. Of the ones I drove, without exception, the cat versions were slower, less responsive, and heavier on fuel than their non-cat siblings.
The one I remember most distinctly was the mk5 Escort RS2000. The non-cat car was an absolute peach. So gutsy and responsive, and in many ways reminiscent performance-wise of the mk2 Astra GTE 16v in the way the engine just seemed to laugh off the weight of the car and punt it up the road. The cat version was still quick, but definitely had that "edge" missing, and where the non-cat engine would bury itself into the limiter with real enthusiasm, the cat version felt a tad breathless over the last 1500 RPM of its range.
It really was chalk and cheese.
The mk5 RS2000 also remains the only car I've known that disproves the old adage that you can't polish a turd. The cooking versions were dire, but this was in a different league. OK so was the Cosworth, but that wasn't really an Escort.
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The early cat cars where poor because the engines where not designed for it. They used a bolt on single injection system which was really nothing more than a fancy carb with a few basic sensors calculating how much fuel needed to be injected.
The injection was needed for the cat to work, Lada did fit cats to their carb cars but the cats would often be wrecked by their first MOT, sending many a 3 year old Lada Riva on the boat back to Russia.
The cat itself robs to much power from the engine, on the Corsa site a lot of the chavs would often remove the CAT and then put it back again for the MOT.
I like 90's cars though, I understand how their computer management systems work and how to use the diagnostic software. Modern car electrical systems are just pure computer science really. I was reading up on how CANBUS worked last night, and so much of what I learnt at university with regard to computer networking came back to me.
I personally love computers in cars, but the balance has been tipped to such a point that they are now a nightmare when they go wrong.
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I think that quite a lot of this thread is wide of the mark.
It's quite instructive to search a well known internet auction site using the search term "non runner". A pattern quickly emerges.
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I don't get the pattern, most of them are all 2000+ cars, and faults range from:-
Cambelt snapped
Head gasket failure
Electrical faults
Unknown reasons
Ran out of oil
Automatic gearbox faults etc etc
Just what I would expect.
Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Wed 28 Sep 11 at 21:56
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Rattle - don't believe a word that's written about the faults on cars
The pattern I had in mind was the prevalence of diesels - I imagine many of them have runaway on their own oil / fuel. There's usually a number of Mazda diesels in the list.
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There is fundamentally nothing wring with many of the modern car designs.
I look at my low tech Lancer, and I see
Coil Packs - give me them over distributor any day, who on earth thinks its good sense to mechanically switch and distribute high voltage many thousand times per second.
Fuel Injection, what loony thinks its a good idea to have a mechanical slide with a silly tin float, venturi, and a mechanical needle?
etc etc
Canbus is good enough for satellites, its more than good enough for your car.
What kills cars is not the failures, but the outrageous price of spares to resolve them. An ECU that costs about 7 quid to make, sells for several hundreds of pounds. A brake system component that is OEM on the assembly line at 15 quid sells for near on a thousand.
There is the real reason. Frankly its criminal.
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 28 Sep 11 at 22:05
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>>
>> Canbus is good enough for satellites, its more than good enough for your car.
>>
The parts costings, assembly time and production volumes are a bit different though.
>> What kills cars is not the failures, but the outrageous price of spares to resolve
>> them. An ECU that costs about 7 quid to make, sells for several hundreds of
>> pounds. A brake system component that is OEM on the assembly line at 15 quid
>> sells for near on a thousand.
>>
>> There is the real reason. Frankly its criminal.
>>
100% agree
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If a dealer ever diagnosed a faulty ECU on any of my cars and it wasn't under warranty, I would trip them up and ask them what part of the ECU has failed.
I bet many times they need nothing more than a recap. So that is £700 for a part which needs nothing more than our spent replacing £2 worth of capacitors.
I also agree I would much rather have injection and a coil pack to a carb and dizzy, ok they may cost more when they go wrong but the truth is they rarely do go wrong but if the a coil fails it is easy enough to replace.
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>>Frankly its criminal.
Not really - what it really is, is capitalism writ large.
I write that not as a lefty, but, as someone who despises the enfeebling effects of socialism, however, we can't be realistic if we expect motor manufacturers to set the price of spares in a way which doesn't encourage customers to buy another car.
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>> >>Frankly its criminal.
>>
>> Not really - what it really is, is capitalism writ large.
>>
No seriously, there are EU laws, about anti competitive behaviour, serviceability, pricing, that are being breached with impunity
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>>Frankly its criminal.
>> Not really - what it really is, is capitalism writ large.
>> I write that not as a lefty
You don't have to be a 'lefty' to see something to criticize in capitalism, N_C. Profit for the individual or the company at the cost of moronic waste and brutal, snivelling theft elsewhere... it's capitalism, and it can and should be criticized.
The whole idea that the only alternative to criminally wasteful and heartless capitalism is a sort of sentimental PC leftyness is a construct of the media we have and the politicians we have. But we have only ourselves to blame if we swallow it.
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>> I write that not as a lefty
He he.
I included that, because some might take the view that because I work for Northern Polyversity, I must be a little red book carrying Guardian reader - however, it is true to say the place is a bit of nest of left leaners.
As an example,during the recent industrial action, email invites came round for debate sessions on aspects of Marxism to be held in the Red Lion (where else?)!
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>> sessions on aspects of Marxism to be held in the Red Lion (where else?)!
I don't think I would have gone either N_C.
But I take your subtle hint that one can't keep company with ducks without learning to quack a bit. Stands to reason eh?
A luta continua!
:o}
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It does make me sick that so many good computers get thrown out. Many times all it needs is a new hard drive or power supply, but they just get turned into baked bean cans because todays consumers are brainwashed into buying new technology all the time.
Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Wed 28 Sep 11 at 22:43
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>> I also agree I would much rather have injection and a coil pack to a
>> carb and dizzy, ok they may cost more when they go wrong but the truth
>> is they rarely do go wrong but if the a coil fails it is easy
>> enough to replace.
>>
LOL LOL LOL!!!!!!!
Bother.... I need to change my clothes and dry the floor!
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>> Bother.... I need to change my clothes and dry the floor!
ho ho ho
I have been owning and driving cars for 40 years. I doubt you are even that old. you have no idea.
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I just remember all the problems my dad used to have with dizzy's and carbs. Not starting in winter etc. All the cars since the first injected/electronic ignition one have just worked and worked, the only time they have not started was due to flat batteries.
I think the Escort needed a new coil pack once, but that is the only trouble we have ever had.
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The carburetter on my 1990 Cavalier 1.8 was a fearsome thing, covered in little levers, cams and screw adjusters, looked like a technology stretched beyond its limits. I'm fine with closed loop fuel injection & coil packs, even my leggy old Vauxhalls start the moment you turn the key. Petrol injectors do seem to go on forever, I've never needed to change one, even at 160K+ miles I've put on several of my cars - I shudder to think how many actuations that is per injector.
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>>
>> >> Bother.... I need to change my clothes and dry the floor!
>>
>> ho ho ho
>>
>> I have been owning and driving cars for 40 years. I doubt you are even
>> that old. you have no idea.
>>
I have worked in the motortrade for 34 years.
We sell a fair few coil packs, sensors, ECUs and diesel injectors... I must say the petrol injectors do seem to last ok.
we also sell loads of turbos for diesels......
In the old days most cars got driven into the workshop after a breakdown.
Now most get pushed.
Edit... thanks Zero... some people have said I look good for my age!
Last edited by: swiss tony on Wed 28 Sep 11 at 22:47
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>>The early cat cars where poor because the engines where not designed for it. They used a bolt on single injection system which was really nothing more than a fancy carb with a few basic sensors calculating how much fuel needed to be injected.
The injection was needed for the cat to work
Rattlo, may I suggest you stick to things you know. How do you suggest my '93 carburettored and catted KIA continues (with luck) to pass MOT emissions each year despite being bounced around fields and used as a general runabout?
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Probably because the engine was efficient in the first place, a lot of the engines around in mainstream cars in the early 90's werent. There must have been a logical reason why the big manufacturers converted to fuel injection the second they added a cat to their cars.
I know the trouble Lada had is the emissions where so bad that they kept wrecking the cats although when brand new there where within the limits. It was what finally took them out of the UK part from falling sales, as GM just couldn't supply enough compatible fuel injection systems.
The fuel injection system in my first Fiesta looked like a carb in many ways and I am pretty sure bolting one in place of the injection on wouldn't have been too difficult.
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I am sure people here will remember the sound of the 1980's in winter, the sound of "chi chi chi chi" people trying to start their cars. Since electronic ignition and fuel injection that is now a rare sound, and when it happens it usually is just the battery.
Of course what I shouldn't have said is cats don't work too well with badly tuned carbed engines. Which was the exact problem Lada had.
Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Thu 29 Sep 11 at 00:22
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>> I am sure people here will remember the sound of the 1980's in winter, the
>> sound of "chi chi chi chi" people trying to start their cars. Since electronic ignition
>> and fuel injection that is now a rare sound, and when it happens it usually
>> is just the battery.
It may be true for some, however my 1980 mk1 Astra 1.3 - "Varajet II" Carb, supplied by a AC Declo Distributor - Started on the key 1st time, and everytime
Manual choke -
The only problems I ever had with that carb started when it got dirt and water in coming up from the fuel line
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>> It may be true for some, however my 1980 mk1 Astra 1.3 - "Varajet II"
>> Carb, supplied by a AC Declo Distributor - Started on the key 1st time, and
>> everytime
>>
>> Manual choke -
I think my 1984 Mk1 1300 had the same carb, but with an auto choke. It all worked fine until the garage tried adjusting it one day to reduce how long it stayed on to help reduce fuel consumption. It took ages of tinkering with it (me, btw) to get it so that the engine didn't cut out ¼ of a mile up the road when I pulled up at a T junction.
Also, it was vacuum operated and unbeknown to both me and a local mechanic this was the cause of erractic CO readings when trying to tune it. He put it down to a worn shaft on the butterfly valve and the valve not always closing in the same place. I accidentally discovered a vacuum leak and replaced the choke mechanism. Right as rain again after being replaced.
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 29 Sep 11 at 12:58
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Mine also suffered from a vacum leak (IIRC) however easily replaced.
My girlfriend at the time had a manual choke (non electronic ignition) VW polo, with a distributor that required constant adjustment of the points - however it to also started on the key 1st time
If you tended to its needs, it would tend to yours
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>> with a distributor that required constant adjustment of the points
My Allegro was like that. It kept burning out the point contacts and pitting them. I fitted an electronic ignition system (which I made myself from a circuit diagram an ex colleague gave me where I used to work) that just used the points as a low current on/off switch which solved the problem.
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>>Probably because the engine was efficient in the first place
I doubt it. At each MOT the (very understanding) staff mutter and have to find the manual to check engine number and so on. They then comment it's the filthiest exhaust they see each year, but it's within tolerance - so far.
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Of course while not blind to the advantages of the modern electronic engine which are more or less irresistible, I really agree with those who like the simplicity and adjustability of the contact breaker carburetted car. If you knew what you were doing with one of those setups you could have a quite efficient reliable car that didn't need overpriced black boxes sometimes.
Carburettors were a bit of a nuisance sometimes. People (including most garages) were very clumsy and dumb about the float level for example which could be crucial. Carburetted cars maintained by lousy back street garages tended to be set a bit rich and a bit retarded ignition wise. So they started easily and ran quietly but lacked zip and of course used more fuel than necessary.
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My mate used to show off about his carb adjusting skills, but the MOT inspector didn't agree, I can't remember the figures but they said it was one of the worst polluting cars he had ever seen. My mate was too lazy to use the choke, so he figured if he made it run rich all the time the choke was useless. Of course back in 2001 the price of petrol was a lot cheaper.
The main problem with dizzy is the amount parts which can wear out, although they are amazingly simple in design. I wish I got to play with it on the Lada but was a bit too young. My grandad would often have to come round to spray some WD40 in the points just to get the damn thing to start.
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>> The main problem with dizzy is the amount parts which can wear out, although they
>> are amazingly simple in design. I wish I got to play with it on the
>> Lada but was a bit too young. My grandad would often have to come round
>> to spray some WD40 in the points just to get the damn thing to start.
>>
???? Like what?
Points - service item (replace the condenser regularly and points wont burn)
Grease the cam they wont wear, and change the dwell angle. (gap? naw set by dwell!)
Arm and cap? extended service items. changed mine at around 24k intervals. (kept clean in-between.)
Shaft? never heard of lubrication? as per service schedule?
Bob weights and springs? one of my cars had issues with tired springs... @ 100k plus.
As already stated, I set points by dwell, and timing by light (checking advance each time) and the only car I had that ate points was a Fiesta which had a Bosch dizzy and a Motorcraft coil. broke down once, restarted after 20 mins - changed the coil for a new Bosch one, after which the points never misbehaved.
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Tony do you remember names like Hepolite, Glacier and Vandervell and are they still around?
Pat
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>> Carburettors were a bit of a nuisance sometimes. People (including most garages) were very clumsy and dumb about the float level for example which could be crucial.
Now THAT'S hit the nail on the head!
All my carbed/points cars always started without issues (auto chokes were a weak spot on many cars though.....)
Properly set up, a carb can give injection a good run for its money.
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>>Carburetted cars maintained by lousy back street garages tended to be set a bit rich
Father in law bought a Mini that was obviously running rich, so I adjusted the carb (SU with lifting pin).
He complained that when he bought it he could push the choke in after a couple of hundred yards, but after I adjusted it, it was more like a mile.
He took it to a garage and got them to set it 'like it was when he bought it'.
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>> Of course while not blind to the advantages of the modern electronic engine which are
>> more or less irresistible, I really agree with those who like the simplicity and adjustability
>> of the contact breaker carburetted car. If you knew what you were doing with one
>> of those setups you could have a quite efficient reliable car that didn't need overpriced
>> black boxes sometimes.
>>
Couldn't agree more. Both of my older Harleys, along with my pick-up, are still on points and carb. They are reliable for two reasons, because I keep them that way and they were well made in the first place; having had the good fortune to serve an apprenticeship as a mechanic in the Army I learned properly.
I've always been wary of "black box" technology, basically because any breakdown not only involves component replacement but also increasingly expensive diagnosis. The three vehicles mentioned above have electrical systems which may admittedly be crude by modern standards, but they are also simple and fault-finding is therefore straightforward. The down side is that maintenance needs to be more thorough and regular, but with classic vehicles that is part of the fun. I would however concede that none of them are daily drives, although there's no reason why they couldn't be used as such.
My modern vehicles, which comprise the Hyundai i10, Harley Sportster and the Honda Lead scooter, do not by design require such intensive maintenance; all very well up to a point, but it makes owners lazy and they tend to ignore small faults which end up costing big money. They're not so much fun to own either.
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Not true in the case of the RS, Rats. Proper multipoint injection from day 1.
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I am flabbergasted that any right minded individual could possibly think that a return to proven unreliable mechanical components over modern proven electronic parts is desirable
You should all (taken from the time travel thread) be transported back to the dark ages, post Roman Empire, where clearly such blind recidivist thinking would suit you all better.
Before I push the button and dispose of you all in this way.
Cars are now more reliable and maintenance free than they have ever been in the history of travel.
And in relative terms, cheaper as well. THATS why cars get scrapped, because it never been cheaper to buy another.
Exit by the door to the right marked "TIME TRANSPORT" you will be issued with your hemp hairshirts and wode makeup upon arrival. Mind the cowsheet as you step out.
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Agreed, Z, and the other factor is escalating labour costs. To give an extreme example, my garage quoted me £10.64 to replace a light bulb, of which only £1.74 was for the bulb itself. I bought a bulb for 95p and fitted myself, of course, but I couldn't do that with a turbo or a cat or any of the other parts that go wrong. Invariably the labour to fix the problem costs more than the parts, and a replacement car looks like the cheaper option.
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Invariably the labour to fix the problem costs more than
>> the parts, and a replacement car looks like the cheaper option.
>>
At the moment that's the case, not so sure it will be the same in the not too distant future.
Forgetting the very small cheap cars, these will always be relatively affordable new for anyone who has a reasonble job, possibly cheaper than public transport, certainly far cheaper than train travel.....until road pricing comes in that'll change things drastically and forever, anyway, that's by the by.
The volumes of medium and larger new car sales are well down, and have been for some time.
We have an ever increasing population, the many reasons for which do not matter in this context, but it is the case and will be till the money runs out.
A large number of the good quality 3 to 10 year old cars, 4x4's and MPV's can be seen on foreign car transporters and lined up on the docks waiting for the next ship out.
As stated, many cars, arguably not of quality manufacture are being scrapped far too young....quality manufacture that is, not always a perceived quality badge though.
Sooner rather than later i think the balance might shift, and we might see good quality cars not so cheap to buy.
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Cars are becomming more like white goods (some more so than others) which is why we treat them in the same manner. Big bill? - Junk it for a new one.
Last edited by: Boxsterboy on Thu 29 Sep 11 at 12:52
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The volumes of medium and larger new car sales are well down, and have been for some time.
I'm not sure that's relevant, GB. Not many buyers in that bracket scrap an old car and replace it with a new one. The slowdown is due to people like me deciding that their middle-aged car will do them for a bit longer before they sell it on.
Those who face the question of whether to repair or to scrap are more likely to be looking to the used market for a replacement.
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Peugeot 405 is a very rare sight now, and come to think of it even the 406 isn't particularly common round my way any more. Still shedloads of 306s about.
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Most of you are old stick in the muds..
I like modern well designed cars. Few faults and easy to diagnose.
Of course, IF you buy a Renault you won't get any of that or a Mercedes or a host of vauxhalls designed by an engineering team whose brief was to cut costs and so underresourced as to be incapable of doing any sensible design.
But buy Japanese (Mazda diesles excepted ) or modern Korean and you get reliability and easy to diagnose.
When you can buy a Reasonable code reader which tells you in English what is wrong for under £40, to complain modern cars are difficult to diagnose is plain stoopid.
PS anyone who thinks Land/Range Rovers are reliable is seriously deluded . Change alternator sir? Engine out £500 plus parts.
Last edited by: madf on Thu 29 Sep 11 at 13:42
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>>
>> When you can buy a Reasonable code reader which tells you in English what is
>> wrong for under £40, to complain modern cars are difficult to diagnose is plain stoopid.
>>
The code reader just lists the alarms, it doesn't state the root cause of the problem; there have been all sorts of issues over the years on various cars with false/wrong alarms due to EMC issues etc - as I'm sure 'injection doc.' for one could testify.
A 40 quid box is not guaranteed to diagnose the problem. Access to proper diagnostic software would certainly make life easier, but that's difficult to do legally without spending a lot of money.
Thankfully my Vauxhalls still use blink codes so I don't need even need a code reader.
Last edited by: spamcan61 on Thu 29 Sep 11 at 13:49
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When you buy a well designed car, problems with false alarms tend to be few and far between. Of course if the car only has the standard OBD codes... it's carp...
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>> When you buy a well designed car, problems with false alarms tend to be few
>> and far between.
..but not unknown
>>Of course if the car only has the standard OBD codes... it's
>> carp...
>>
At least the code data will be legitimately in the public domain.
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Not read most of posts so sorry if mentioned.
Don't these cars end up in Eastern Europe & there was a firm on tv taking trucks full a week over there.
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>> When you can buy a Reasonable code reader which tells you in English what is
>> wrong for under £40, to complain modern cars are difficult to diagnose is plain stoopid.
>>
You should set up a company selling these Reasonable code readers to indies instead of them investing/wasting thousands on code readers for the marques they choose to specialise in.
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The mechanic my dad uses is a back street affair of the highest order, does things like bulbs for free etc but he spent £2k on his code reading machine, and then he has to buy software cards for different brands.
He plugged into my Corsa once and I was staggered at the amount of data it could read and the amount of things he could tweak. You could actually see the exact data which the sensors where feeding the ECU well before any warning light came on.
The cheap ones simply read a fault code which is stored after a fault appears that the data is so out of range it gets flagged up. Many faults are more subtle. When the MAF went on the Corsa there was no fault code.
The cheap readers are fine for DIY and a lot of quick fixes, but for proper diagnostics you just don't get enough information from them.
My uncle had one he used for old school Fords (pre OBCD) which flashed LEDs in a sequence to show a fault, on my Fiesta it pointed to the TPS, he then checked the TPS was working fine, so he then wiggled the wire, bingo!. I replace the wire myself and fixed it.
So code readers to have their place, but they are not perfect. It is exactly the same with diagnosing PCs, very often the fault is not with what appears to he fault, but something further down the line.
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>> The cheap readers are fine for DIY and a lot of quick fixes, but for
>> proper diagnostics you just don't get enough information from them.
>>
>> My uncle had one he used for old school Fords (pre OBCD) which flashed LEDs
>> in a sequence to show a fault, on my Fiesta it pointed to the TPS,
>> he then checked the TPS was working fine, so he then wiggled the wire, bingo!.
>> I replace the wire myself and fixed it.
>>
>> So code readers to have their place, but they are not perfect. It is exactly
>> the same with diagnosing PCs, very often the fault is not with what appears to
>> he fault, but something further down the line.
>>
Every garage at one time had a code reader, which the mechanic could carry about with him 24/7; it was commonly known as the human brain. Admittedly it wasn't perfect, but it worked for most models, especially if you programmed it with the "Experience" upgrades which came free of charge.
I'll forgive you because you fix computers for a living and it's therefore inevitable, but you've just offered a classic example above of why I avoid unecessary technology. In other words, the more jargon you use the more gizmos you need to fix them.
To use your example, I know what a Light Emitting Diode is, but I wasn't aware that old Fiestas suffered from Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (though it comes as no surprise if it's YOUR car ;) ) and what the hell the Telephone Preference Service has to do with vehicle electrics I really don't know.
K.I.S.S.
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>> K.I.S.S.
I always said lorry drivers were gay.
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TPS - Throttle position sensor, tells the ECU how far the throttle is pressed down, it is basically a POT (variable resistor) which is connected directly to the throttle cable, the resistance changes according to the tension of the throttle cable. If this sensor goes faulty it causes all sorts of odd behaviour.
The symptom was cutting out at junctions, it could have been anything, but the code reader allowed my uncle to diagnose the fault in minutes.
My mechanic doesn't charge me for code reading but when I did use him I used to give him a tenner for his time.
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>> TPS - Throttle position sensor, tells the ECU how far the throttle is pressed down,
>> it is basically a POT (variable resistor) which is connected directly to the throttle cable,
>> the resistance changes according to the tension of the throttle cable. If this sensor goes
>> faulty it causes all sorts of odd behaviour.
Cheers Rats, proves my point even further. Basically it's one more thing to go wrong. Got a throttle position sensor on both the Harleys and on the pick-up BTW; right hand and right foot respectively.
If the cable snaps on the bikes (and in 15 years of ownership I've never broken one) it's a single-strand piano wire which at a pinch can be replaced by ordinary mild steel wire as a get-you-home fix. Truck is linkage, again if it breaks it's almost certainly bodge-able.
Point I'm making is that stuff like this is far more future-proof than modern vehicles, and that vulnerability to a drying-up of high-tech spare parts is to a great degree what is killing off otherwise useable vehicles. I won't try to claim that the old 'uns are bullet-proof, but it's my bet that whilst we've still got petrol to run them, old cars trucks and bikes will still have a role to play.
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>>... other factor is escalating labour costs. To give an extreme example,
>> my garage quoted me £10.64 to replace a light bulb, of which only £1.74 was
>> for the bulb itself.
I was quoted 3.95 per indicator bulb bulb cos they were showing too much white.
Odd that two weeks earlier they were OK for the MoT.
I examined the rear ones, a 30 sec job and they were fine.
I happened to have to change a dip beam bulb and that is a 15min job and that indicator bulb was OK
Odd that there was the same caharge for front and rear bulbs,
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Strange how we have to have marque specific computer diagnostics in this country.In the States OBD I & II fits all. £1000 + for an ECU? Mate of mine bought one for his Camaro for £100 brand new. Yanks don't stand for having their pants pulled down when it comes to motoring.
Bend over...
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>> Strange how we have to have marque specific computer diagnostics in this country.In the States
>> OBD I & II fits all.
And here. OBD is a set of common standards and the same apply here in Europe. But that is just the basics.
Here and in the states, there is additional manufacturer specific information over and above the ODB basic requirements that requires additional kit to decode or indeed recode or change the system
£1000 + for an ECU? Mate of mine bought
>> one for his Camaro for £100 brand new. Yanks don't stand for having their pants
>> pulled down when it comes to motoring.
>> Bend over...
They still think they need a lube job every 3k miles. And pay for it.
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I remember on my old 1986 Polo that the cambelt snapped so I had the head repaired and then put a replacement gearbox in at 150k.
Wouldn't even bother on my 2006 vectra, if the CIM module goes, or the clutch packs in I'm not throwing £1000 at the car - especially as the bigger bills are caused by having to take it to a main dealer for coding/programming and the like. They same to think that 5 minutes with a laptop (not exactly rocket science) can justify sky high labour charges.
I work in IT and if I charged main dealer rates I could quite easily charge you £500 to replace a failed hard drive in your pc, when parts cost <£40
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>> I work in IT and if I charged main dealer rates I could quite easily
>> charge you £500 to replace a failed hard drive in your pc, when parts cost
>> <£40
I dont think so, the book time to change a hard drive is 1 hour, main dealer rates are no more than 100 an hour. 200 quid maximum inc parts.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 30 Sep 11 at 12:59
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Don't forget (as a main dealer) I would charge you for a diagnostic as well. And the hours job would be escalated to 2 hours if at all possible!
The 'programming' of parts is a con - its a 5 minute job, charged at an extortionate rate
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I long ago decided that manufacturees who code components are thieving bar stewards and now only buy Far Eastern cars - who usually don't code.
Vauxhall are one of the worst due to their poor electronics in my view..
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I can't imagine a technical reason why an injector needs to be coded to an engine, apart from the revenue it generates.
Coding radios to the car I can understand from an anti-theft point of view.
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>> I can't imagine a technical reason why an injector needs to be coded to an
>> engine, apart from the revenue it generates.
>>
>> Coding radios to the car I can understand from an anti-theft point of view.
>>
Vaxhall code their diesel engine pumps . So if your pump fails, it's a dealer job. £1500 to you sir..
VAG code lots of silly things.
A guarantee that once a car is worth under £4k many repairs will be uneconomic...
I cannot think of any reason to buy and run such a car - from my own pocket of course...
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>> I can't imagine a technical reason why an injector needs to be coded to an
>> engine, apart from the revenue it generates.
I don't know about all manufacturers but some use one of three sets of injectors with different flow rates. They tell the car which set have been fitted, it also helps ensure the correct replacement is fitted when the original is all coroded and you cant read the type stamped on it.
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>> Vauxhall are one of the worst due to their poor electronics in my view..
>>
Poor electronics?
I would rather poor, than awful Renault ones.
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 5 Oct 11 at 00:57
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>> I long ago decided that manufacturees who code components are thieving bar stewards and now
>> only buy Far Eastern cars - who usually don't code.
Ford code the injectors for the TDCi engines - replacement was pretty commonplace in the old shape Mondeo, not sure if they're any more reliable now.
You have the same situation with cars now as you did in the eighties and nineties, the only thing that has changed is the amount of electronics. It's still based on soundness of design and development of components - the problem is when the technology to cope with ever increasing emission regulations is in it's infancy, or hasn't had the time to be developed properly like Siemens piezo controlled diesel injectors.
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>>
>> They still think they need a lube job every 3k miles. And pay for it
Not much I would have thought. Plenty of fast fit outfits like Pepboys do the job for little money. At least they don't need to worry about silly cam belt and water pump expense.
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Cars that were common, disappearing fast. - RattleandSmoke
