| Non-motoring > Child Abuse?? | Miscellaneous |
| Thread Author: Bromptonaut | Replies: 96 |
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New Sat 17 Sep 11 11:30
Child Abuse?? - Bromptonaut
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B Junior was in town yesterday & sat for a few minutes in the shoppong centre, opposite a well known 'accessories' chian (cheap jewellery etc not car bits). Parents walk out with kiddy, not much more than one, who'd clearly just had her ears pierced. The lad was shocked and thinks it's tantamount to child abuse. I agree. What does the panel think? |
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New Sat 17 Sep 11 11:38
Child Abuse?? - Old Navy
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| I agree, isn't there a law about tattooing kids? Should apply to mutilation too. |
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New Sat 17 Sep 11 11:46
Child Abuse?? - SteelSpark
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How can a small hole in each ear, that would heal up if left, be considered mutilation? It's a bit tacky on small children, in my opinion, but to equate it with child abuse is more than a bit silly. |
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New Sat 17 Sep 11 11:48
Child Abuse?? - -
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Cultural thing, hardly child abuse, it wasn't done with a hot poker for goodness sake. One could argue that circumcision especially of the female variety when performed in a council bedsit in a British ghetto really does warrant a child abuse label and a swift removal of child from alleged parents. |
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New Sat 17 Sep 11 12:01
Child Abuse?? - SteelSpark
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>> One could argue that circumcision especially of the female variety when performed in a council >> bedsit in a British ghetto really does warrant a child abuse label and a swift >> removal of child from alleged parents. The female variety is, quite rightly, illegal here and in many other countries. It is a very different practice to male circumcision, barbaric, and quite rightly properly (in my opinion) referred to a female genital mutilation. I don't personally believe that male circumcision is right, but certainly if sticking a couple of little holes in a girl's ears is to be considered child abuse, I can't imagine what the removal of a good chunk of foreskin should be considered. |
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New Sat 17 Sep 11 13:02
Child Abuse?? - Zero
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In general, whilst I wouldn't call it child abuse, body modification of any kind ( and that's what a piercing is) should be outlawed until some given age of consent. In the case of pierced ears, its probably a small step to the next part where the female child is done up like a teenage tart. |
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New Sat 17 Sep 11 13:06
Child Abuse?? - SteelSpark
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>> In the case of pierced ears, its probably a small step to the next part >> where the female child is done up like a teenage tart. {eye-rolling smiley} Last edited by: SteelSpark on Sat 17 Sep 11 at 13:06
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New Sat 17 Sep 11 13:12
Child Abuse?? - -
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I hear where Z's going with that, having seen the odd article about American beauty pageants where girls as young as 8 or so are done up like dogs dinners, it'll probably end up here if it hasn't already. It's something i find deeply disturbing, and cannot for the life of me wonder what is going through the parents minds, children should be children with a proper loving childhood, there's plenty of time for the horrors of reality later in life. |
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New Sat 17 Sep 11 13:14
Child Abuse?? - Westpig
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>> It's something i find deeply disturbing, and cannot for the life of me wonder what >> is going through the parents minds, children should be children with a proper loving childhood, >> there's plenty of time for the horrors of reality later in life. >> +1 |
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New Sat 17 Sep 11 13:19
Child Abuse?? - SteelSpark
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>> >> It's something i find deeply disturbing, and cannot for the life of me wonder >> what >> >> is going through the parents minds, children should be children with a proper loving >> childhood, >> >> there's plenty of time for the horrors of reality later in life. I think many people find it disturbing (myself included) because it smacks of some kind of sexualisation of those girls. Maybe it's just me, but there seems to be a huge chasm between a girl getting her ears pierced and that kind of pageant. Sure, piercing ears is an aesthetic activity, but so is putting their hair in pigtails, neither of them have anything to do with the types of sexualisation at those pageants. Last edited by: SteelSpark on Sat 17 Sep 11 at 13:20
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New Sat 17 Sep 11 13:13
Child Abuse?? - Westpig
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and thinks it's tantamount to child abuse. I agree. >> >> What does the panel think? >> Yes. Would you sanction a one year old having a nose stud or a nipple piercing. Why is an ear acceptable and a nose/nipple not? Hiding behind the 'culture' is no excuse either. There are many things in the past that we used to do culturally, but now no longer...and there's cultural things nowadays that are at complete odds with other modern or forward thinking standards (e.g. the second class treatement of women by a particular religion). 50 - 100 years in the future, our successors will be saying 'Can you believe they used to allow little children to be put in pain and a hole put in the skin, purely for aesthetic reasons on a whim of the adult'. |
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New Sat 17 Sep 11 13:58
Child Abuse?? - bathtub tom
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Piercings and tattoos: A person's body mutilations are inversely proportional to their intelligence. I haven't a clue where the quote's from. |
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New Sat 17 Sep 11 14:03
Child Abuse?? - SteelSpark
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>> Piercings and tattoos: >> >> A person's body mutilations are inversely proportional to their intelligence. >> >> I haven't a clue where the quote's from. The Daily Mail's online comments section? |
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New Sat 17 Sep 11 14:07
Child Abuse?? - Old Navy
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Sorry its a DM report. It will be here soon if not already. tinyurl.com/6jrzdzm |
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New Sat 17 Sep 11 14:10
Child Abuse?? - devonite
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My mate wanted a Tattoo, so he went to get one, whilst looking at the catalogue the Tattooist came over and asked him if he`d decided yet, to which my mate replied that he wanted a big Indian tattooing on his back, from shoulder to shoulder and down to his bum. After two hours he enquired how things were going, the Tattoist replied "nearly done, not long now". An hour later... feeling a bit sore, my mate asked again "how much longer", "nearly done now" came the reply "just got his Turban to finish off" !!! |
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New Sat 17 Sep 11 14:41
Child Abuse?? - Roger.
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Every female Spanish child in Spain has her ears pierced quite soon after birth, with studs being put in straight away. At least it helps one to determine the child's sex when doing the obligatory billing, cooing and ooh - ahs over the infant. |
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New Sat 17 Sep 11 14:42
Child Abuse?? - Roger.
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Personally, I abhor tattoos as well as male jewellery of any kind, including wedding or signet rings.
Last edited by: Roger on Sat 17 Sep 11 at 14:43
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New Sat 17 Sep 11 15:12
Child Abuse?? - Lygonos
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| And watches with bracelets other than s/steel or plastic, Roger ? |
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New Sat 17 Sep 11 15:24
Child Abuse?? - Dutchie
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www.freetattoodesigns.org/body-art.html You might like this Roger. |
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New Sat 17 Sep 11 15:58
Child Abuse?? - Stuu
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Much as Im not a fan of earrings on toddlers, I can assure you the gap between that and the level of personal violation real abuse entails is vast. Its at worst questionable parenting, but even that depends on your perspective. |
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New Sat 17 Sep 11 16:03
Child Abuse?? - zippy
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I would not let my daughter get her ears pierced until she was 15. Oh dear, what a horrid parent I must be! |
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New Sat 17 Sep 11 16:11
Child Abuse?? - CGNorwich
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| About my view FoR. To describe it as abuse is way over the top. |
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New Sat 17 Sep 11 16:46
Child Abuse?? - Westpig
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>> About my view FoR. To describe it as abuse is way over the top. >> Abuse is a sliding scale. Constant unnecessary verbal 'put downs' that badly undermines confidence, at one end of the scale....death at the other. Unnecessarily inflicting pain on a 1 year old could easily be a form of abuse, albeit more mild than some of the horror stories we sometimes hear about. Technically, puncturing someone's skin is an Actual Bodily Harm, which is a more serious form of assault than a Common Assault or Battery. So if you punctured the skin deliberately on someone else's kid, you'd be up for an ABH potentially (not in reality). If you put a drawing pin through your kid's finger, deliberately...you'd be up for assualt and child abuse..so why not its' ear? |
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New Sat 17 Sep 11 17:10
Child Abuse?? - Stuu
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>>Unnecessarily inflicting pain on a 1 year old could easily be a form of abuse, albeit more mild than some of the horror stories we sometimes hear about.<< It doesnt hurt if done properly. |
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New Sat 17 Sep 11 17:20
Child Abuse?? - Bromptonaut
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>> It doesnt hurt if done properly. I'd be prepared to accept that from an adult's perspective - like having and injection doesn't hurt!!. For a child who's too young to have any choice though? The lad reports the kiddy was in obvious discomfort and parents were dissuading/chastising for rubbing her ears. Thinking more about it I'm surprised the chain concerned allows its staff to do piercings on (say) pre teens. |
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New Sat 17 Sep 11 17:59
Child Abuse?? - Stuu
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As I said, I dont agree with it, but I dont think its abusive as such, that was the question posed rather than whether its a good thing. Little kids cry at a vast majority of things, since they cant vocalise things, so its somewhat unwise to attribute crying to one particular cause, they could just be tired and want to go to sleep, they will cry the house down for that alone. |
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New Sat 17 Sep 11 18:02
Child Abuse?? - Ian (Cape Town)
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>>Unnecessarily inflicting pain on a 1 year old could easily be a form of abuse, >> albeit more mild than some of the horror stories we sometimes hear about.<< So, what's your spin on circumcision? It isn't as if the thing can grow back, like a piercing hole can close if the sprog decides he/she doesn't want a piercing. |
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 11:22
Child Abuse?? - Cliff Pope
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>> >> >> It doesnt hurt if done properly. >> >> >> Neither does amputation or execution. |
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 11:32
Child Abuse?? - SteelSpark
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>> >> It doesnt hurt if done properly. >> >> Neither does amputation or execution. Neither does {snip}. Thought I'd save the mods a job. ;) |
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New Sat 17 Sep 11 17:56
Child Abuse?? - SteelSpark
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>> If you put a drawing pin through your kid's finger, deliberately...you'd be up for assualt >> and child abuse..so why not its' ear? Completely different, in my opinion. If you stick a drawing pin in your kid's figure you are almost certainly doing it, simply to cause pain and injury, and pain and injury will obviously result. Presumably, when people are getting their kid's ears pierced, the goal is not to hurt or injure the child. Yes, the skin is pierced, but the intention is for it to be painless, and a hole in an ear lobe would not (in layman's terms, at least) be considered an injury by many. I'm sure that you could technically define it as an injury and an assault, but in whose interest would that be? Smacking kids, which you seem to approve of, is arguably far closer to an assault that should be convicted. Using violence with the intent of hurting and causing fear, sounds much more like an assault to me. Last edited by: SteelSpark on Sat 17 Sep 11 at 17:56
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New Sat 17 Sep 11 18:18
Child Abuse?? - Roger.
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>> You might like this Roger. I've seen it before, Dutchie. The man is a mental defective. |
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New Sat 17 Sep 11 18:17
Child Abuse?? - Roger.
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>> And watches with bracelets other than s/steel or plastic, Roger ? >> My watch is a stainless steel, modestly sized, oblong, Longines, without fancy decoration. |
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New Sat 17 Sep 11 18:20
Child Abuse?? - SteelSpark
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>> >> And watches with bracelets other than s/steel or plastic, Roger ? >> >> >> My watch is a stainless steel, modestly sized, oblong, Longines, without fancy decoration. You must be one of those "real men" I hear about ;) Here I am mincing about in my wedding ring. |
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New Sat 17 Sep 11 23:40
Child Abuse?? - Dutchie
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Same here wedding ring engagement ring and a few tattoos. Sorry Roger tattoos done over 40 years ago. Watch also stainless steel.We'r alll sissys.>:) |
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New Sat 17 Sep 11 19:20
Child Abuse?? - Zero
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>> >> And watches with bracelets other than s/steel or plastic, Roger ? >> >> >> My watch is a stainless steel, modestly sized, oblong, Oblong? thats a bit gay init? i would suggest you get a tat to make up for it. |
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New Sat 17 Sep 11 18:03
Child Abuse?? - CGNorwich
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I'm not sure where you are exactly on child abuse Westpig. You seem to be quite opposed to ear piercing on young children but happy that older children should be beaten with a stick. According to the NHS website the legal position seems to be: "For most body piercings, there's no legal age restriction. However, children aged under 16 are not allowed to have their genitals or nipples pierced. Local councils can use their licensing powers to impose their own age restrictions for body piercings carried out in their area. For example, some councils may only allow ear, nose and belly button piercings in teenagers over 16. You may need to show proof of ID, and children under 16 may need to have a parent or guardian with them.' |
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New Sat 17 Sep 11 21:49
Child Abuse?? - Westpig
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>> I'm not sure where you are exactly on child abuse Westpig. You seem to be >> quite opposed to ear piercing on young children but happy that older children should be >> beaten with a stick. >> I don't approve of children having pain inflicted on them, just because an adult thinks something (ear ring) looks good. I do approve of a child IN SOME CIRCUMSTANCES AND IN MODERATION, having pain inflicted, if it is done in circumstances to their greater good. The latter would not be an offence of assault if it were to be a 'lawful chastisement of a child'. It would be if they had the living daylights beaten out of them. |
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New Sat 17 Sep 11 23:04
Child Abuse?? - CGNorwich
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Just to clarify my position since I'm not convinced that having physical pain inflicted on anybody, child or adult is ever to their greater good. I am also certain from my own experience that once you licence people to hit other people some will overstep the mark. As far as ear piercing is concerned personally I would not arrange it for a small child but would I have no problems with a 10 or 11 year old if they want it done. It seems a fairly trivial matter compared with the many ways children are abused, mainly by being deprived of the care and love they need. |
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 09:06
Child Abuse?? - Manatee
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I forbade my daughter pierced ears when she was 10. The urge obviously wore off, because she's 30 now and still has intact earlobes. I consider that vindication. |
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 09:24
Child Abuse?? - Manatee
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I'm sure the individual's tattoo count in British society will correlate inversely with IQ, but like lager drinking, superstitious beliefs and buying lottery tickets I don't think it can be taken on its own as an indicator of low intellect. Obvious I hope. Nevertheless I hate seeing people that I like, with tattoos. It's clearly now fashionable in some circles, but fashions change while tattoos on the whole don't - Fail 1. I don't think I've ever seen anybody's appearance improved by a tattoo - Fail 2. They all seem to go that ghastly (on skin) bluey green colour and lose definition after a decade or two - Fail 3. How long before the charver parents start getting their toddlers tattooed I wonder? |
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 09:29
Child Abuse?? - Lygonos
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>>How long before the charver parents start getting their toddlers tattooed I wonder? This is illegal - the tatooist commits an offence tattooing an under-18 or anyone under the influence. Not that that stops them - I've seen a number of girls (god knows why - must be the 'pop-idols' of the day are having it done) under 18 with tattoos who 'got permission' from their mums (which still doesn't make it legal). |
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 09:50
Child Abuse?? - SteelSpark
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>> don't think I've ever seen anybody's appearance improved by a tattoo - Fail 2. You obviously never met the same 18 year old girl I knew with a blue dolphin at the top of her thigh. >> They >> all seem to go that ghastly (on skin) bluey green colour and lose definition after >> a decade or two - Fail 3. You do find the occasional crazy person who doesn't live their lives worrying about what might or might not happen 20 years from now, and letting in spoil their fun now. I never fancied a tattoo myself, but it used to make me laugh when my parents warned me that any tattoo would look terrible when I was 70 and wrinkly. If I'm 70, with a wrinkly and saggy body, what do I care if I have a wrinkly tattoo? |
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 10:00
Child Abuse?? - R.P.
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| Each to his own - I am of a mind that there should be a minimum age limit, maybe 10 ? The OP doesn't mention the age of the kid in his post - I find the current trend for these tribal tattoos outside the boundaries of my personal taste, all well when you're young and muscular but I reckon they will lose their "appeal" and look truly dreadful as people get to a certain age. |
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 10:25
Child Abuse?? - CGNorwich
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| Times change - It seems almost the norm to have some sort of tattoo or piercing these days. It doesn't have the negative associations it once had. Its just one of those things old people get worked up about! |
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 10:30
Child Abuse?? - Westpig
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>> Just to clarify my position since I'm not convinced that having physical pain inflicted on >> anybody, child or adult is ever to their greater good. I'd argue that one, but in any case, how about if it is to the greater good of other people as well....e.g. other children being able to learn, because a serially disruptive pupil is firmly dealt with. >>I am also certain from >> my own experience that once you licence people to hit other people some will overstep >> the mark. So are you saying that because some people would over step the mark, that the rest of us should be denied the facility? Why not concentrate on those that over step the mark, rather than penalising everyone else? |
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 10:37
Child Abuse?? - SteelSpark
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>> >> Just to clarify my position since I'm not convinced that having physical pain inflicted >> on >> >> anybody, child or adult is ever to their greater good. >> >> I'd argue that one, but in any case, how about if it is to the >> greater good of other people as well....e.g. other children being able to learn, because a >> serially disruptive pupil is firmly dealt with. As I think I mentioned elsewhere, Finland is often considered to have the best school system in the world, and corporal punishment is banned both in school and in the home. How can hitting kids be vital to a good school system, when the best one in the world doesn't allow it? |
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 10:45
Child Abuse?? - Westpig
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>> How can hitting kids be vital to a good school system, when the best one >> in the world doesn't allow it? >> Because Finland doesn't have great big estates full of chavs who worry more about the next packet of fags or crate of lager than bringing up their children properly?... and leaving the discipline of its children to social workers/teachers/police etc, rather than parents doing it? I'm no expert on Finland..but i'd hazard a large guess that their society is considerably more ordered than ours is, taking the above in to account, so their schools simply don't need it. I wish ours didn't. Last edited by: Westpig on Sun 18 Sep 11 at 10:46
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 11:02
Child Abuse?? - SteelSpark
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>> >> How can hitting kids be vital to a good school system, when the best >> one >> >> in the world doesn't allow it? >> >> >> >> Because Finland doesn't have great big estates full of chavs who worry more about the >> next packet of fags or crate of lager than bringing up their children properly?... >> >> and leaving the discipline of its children to social workers/teachers/police etc, rather than parents doing >> it? >> >> I'm no expert on Finland..but i'd hazard a large guess that their society is considerably >> more ordered than ours is, taking the above in to account, so their schools simply >> don't need it. >> >> I wish ours didn't. What nonsense, if you don't mind me saying so. To suggest that Finland is some kind of magical land, where all of the parents are responsible and all of the kids are well behaved. I'd suggest a far likelier explanation is that, while Finland also has its fair share of social problems, and its fair share of irresponsible parents and disruptive children, there are ways to successfully manage behaviour at school (and at home) that don't involve hitting people. |
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 11:08
Child Abuse?? - Westpig
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>> What nonsense, if you don't mind me saying so. To suggest that Finland is some >> kind of magical land, where all of the parents are responsible and all of the >> kids are well behaved. >> >> I'd suggest a far likelier explanation is that, while Finland also has its fair share >> of social problems, and its fair share of irresponsible parents and disruptive children, there are >> ways to successfully manage behaviour at school (and at home) that don't involve hitting people. >> Deep sigh....... I'm not saying Finland is a Utopia...i've already said I don't know....I said it's probably BETTER THAN WE ARE.....and they don't have as many serially inadequate parents who give up before they start....NOT that they don't have ANY inadequate parents. Our schools have problems, because the kids turn up indisciplined and the schools have nothing substantial in their armouries to deal with it. IF Finland has a more ordered society, they'll have less discipline for their schools to worry about...ALL THEORY, BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW. |
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 11:17
Child Abuse?? - SteelSpark
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>> Deep sigh....... >> >> I'm not saying Finland is a Utopia...i've already said I don't know....I said it's probably >> BETTER THAN WE ARE.....and they don't have as many serially inadequate parents who give up >> before they start....NOT that they don't have ANY inadequate parents. >> >> Our schools have problems, because the kids turn up indisciplined and the schools have nothing >> substantial in their armouries to deal with it. IF Finland has a more ordered society, >> they'll have less discipline for their schools to worry about...ALL THEORY, BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW. >> And yet, you said that hitting was needed to stop a single pupil from disrupting a class. Well, as you agree that there are inadequate parents, you probably also agree that there are disruptive kids in many classes. So, how are those schools so successful, when they aren't allowed to hit those disruptive children? Could it be that UK teachers have something to learn from those in other nations about how to manage disruptive children? |
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 14:35
Child Abuse?? - Westpig
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>> And yet, you said that hitting was needed to stop a single pupil from disrupting >> a class. No, I didn't say that. I said it might be needed. I'd enviusage it at the end of a long road, as a last resort, when there was nothinbg else left...when the rest of us would like our kids to be actually taught. I do not believe Finland has the same disruptive problems in their schools that we do..and the reason for that will be a generally more obedient and amenable society. >>Well, as you agree that there are inadequate parents, you probably also agree >> that there are disruptive kids in many classes. >> >> So, how are those schools so successful, when they aren't allowed to hit those disruptive >> children? See above. >> Could it be that UK teachers have something to learn from those in other nations >> about how to manage disruptive children? I think that is insulting to British teachers. They have their hands tied behind their backs. For the absolute last time........I AM NOT SAYING BEAT EVERY KID. Smacking or whatever should be a LAST RESORT...but for those scum bag families that send their horrible, violent, rude, disrespectful kids to school with no prospect of them behaving, then a whack on the hand or backside might have them behave just that little bit, enough to teach the other kids. We may well have some weak and ineffective teachers...but I really do not believe our teaching profession is infested with them...we have however weakened our teachers by badly diluting the discipline system...so that the system has become ineffective. |
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 10:59
Child Abuse?? - CGNorwich
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"So are you saying that because some people would over step the mark, that the rest of us should be denied the facility?" Yes |
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 11:03
Child Abuse?? - Westpig
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>> "So are you saying that because some people would over step the mark, that the >> rest of us should be denied the facility?" >> >> Yes >> Why penalise the innocent and reasonable...just because a few would overstep the mark. Deal with the 'few'. That's a typical example of weak management. |
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 11:12
Child Abuse?? - SteelSpark
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>> Why penalise the innocent and reasonable...just because a few would overstep the mark. Deal with >> the 'few'. >> >> That's a typical example of weak management. I think that a large part of the problem is that many parents (and teachers) have never picked up the skills to handle these situations without hitting. That idea will wind up many people, many people don't want to feel that they have more to learn, or might have been doing things the wrong way, whether it is because they have been parents for years, or driving cars for decades. |
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 11:16
Child Abuse?? - Meldrew
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I am not really in favour of visible tattoos but I do wonder at the content of them. I was on an escalator the other day, standing behind a girl who had some Oriental script tatted down her neck. It might have been some significant Oriental thought or it might have said "Two lagers and I'll take you home" I didn't stop to ask BTW! Does anyone think this is a good look BTW? tinyurl.com/65hqvzk Last edited by: Meldrew on Sun 18 Sep 11 at 11:17
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 11:18
Child Abuse?? - SteelSpark
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>> Does anyone think this is a good look BTW? >> >> tinyurl.com/65hqvzk I doubt that even he sees it as particularly aesthetic. He might do, of course, but he is more likely trying to send two messages...I don't give a flip, and...don't flip with me. Last edited by: SteelSpark on Sun 18 Sep 11 at 11:23
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 12:25
Child Abuse?? - captain chaos
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>> >> Does anyone think this is a good look BTW? >> >> >> >> tinyurl.com/65hqvzk >> >> I doubt that even he sees it as particularly aesthetic. He might do, of course, >> but he is more likely trying to send two messages...I don't give a flip, and...don't >> flip with me. >> The message he is trying to send (and achieving) is I'm making myself unemployable Keep sending the benefits. People who disfigure themselves for the above reasons should be denied such benefits. |
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 11:19
Child Abuse?? - CGNorwich
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The facility we are talking about is allowing adults to hit other peoples children with canes. If you believe that not allowing that facility is weak management then I'm for weak management. |
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 11:25
Child Abuse?? - SteelSpark
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>> The facility we are talking about is allowing adults to hit other peoples children >> with canes. >> >> If you believe that not allowing that facility is weak management then I'm for weak >> management. Being unable to manage kids without using a cane is what should really be considered as weak management. |
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 11:59
Child Abuse?? - -
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WP is talking good common sense here, he's not advocating beating kids up for goodness sake he's suggesting a structured system of discipline with the ultimate sanction of some pain if the rest don't work. He doesn't come across as some goose stepping type to me and some of you are taking his sensible view and twisting it. Like it or not this country and the behaviour of many of it's people is going down the pan at a rate of knots, given WP's job he's seen enough of the likely suspects to give him a jaundiced view, and credit to him it hasn't affected him as it probably would have me. We have armies of children who haven't a clue what right and wrong is, brought into this world for a variety of reasons most of us would find repugnant by people with no self respect and no values. For their own good and for their future self respect these children could do with some decent staged discipline in their lives, before they breed their replacements and the cycle repeats yet again. WP, a personal suggestion, when you retire from the job which i have no doubt will be a loss to the country, i sincerely hope you go into something where you can at least try to stop the slide...it'll be very hard to stop the boat, but we as a country desperately need some sense and knowledge at the helm...there's pitiful little evidence of any around running the show. Last edited by: gordonbennet on Sun 18 Sep 11 at 12:01
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 12:07
Child Abuse?? - SteelSpark
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>> WP is talking good common sense here, he's not advocating beating kids up for goodness >> sake he's suggesting a structured system of discipline with the ultimate sanction of some pain >> if the rest don't work. >> >> He doesn't come across as some goose stepping type to me and some of you >> are taking his sensible view and twisting it. As I said above GB, I don't think anybody is twisting what he is saying and suggesting that he is some kind of sadist that likes to beat kids. People are saying that, in their opinion, no level of hitting is required, or acceptable. I do think that some are twisting the words of those who disagree with hitting kids and trying to suggest that we are accusing others of being sadistic child beaters. You seem to be doing exactly that. |
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 12:09
Child Abuse?? - Meldrew
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"For their own good and for their future self respect these children could do with some decent staged discipline in their lives, before they breed their replacements and the cycle repeats yet again." Too late I think GB. We are already into a third generation of feral wasters! I got plenty of vicious canings at my "public" school and all it taught me was don't get caught - I don't think it made me change my life much. However, on balance beatings and physical or mental punishment may give the recipient the idea that they are a way to achieving an aim or objective and really they aren't. |
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 12:13
Child Abuse?? - CGNorwich
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"WP is talking good common sense here, he's not advocating beating kids up for goodness sake he's suggesting a structured system of discipline with the ultimate sanction of some pain if the rest don't work." Ah the common sense argument. Its common sense to me therefore you should accept it Common sense to me certainly involves discipline which in many environments is certainly sadly lacking. It does not however include the striking of children by adults with a cane. There is absolutely no evidence that it works and most of the civilised world manage without it. I very much doubt whether most teachers today would be prepared to do it. |
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 12:26
Child Abuse?? - -
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Caning should only the the ultimate sanction, that's agreed by all of us, and it should be available as a punishment for criminal acts for alleged adults too. It's something that moderated my behaviour at school, and parents who i loved and respected helped me to moderate my out of school behaviour, i was no saint mind but disappointing my parents was the worse thing i could do (for me), it all taught us self discipline maybe. If there's no ultimate sanction then there's nothing to fear for those who have no self discipline and have been taught nothing of worth by their useless parents. I think Meldrew's right and it's all over bar the shouting, but we so desparately need someone to say the word ''enough''. Common sense...yes a joke these days, that's one of the reasons we are in the state we are. |
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 12:54
Child Abuse?? - SteelSpark
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>> Caning should only the the ultimate sanction, that's agreed by all of us, and it >> should be available as a punishment for criminal acts for alleged adults too. >> >> If there's no ultimate sanction then there's nothing to fear for those who have no >> self discipline and have been taught nothing of worth by their useless parents. >> >> I think Meldrew's right and it's all over bar the shouting, but we so desparately >> need someone to say the word ''enough''. >> >> Common sense...yes a joke these days, that's one of the reasons we are in the >> state we are. What we need is people who are actually experts in child behaviour to train the teachers. Of course hitting kids will stop them from doing certain things, but that doesn't mean that it is the only way to achieve that end, or an acceptable way to do so. Let's say that one kid is bullying another, and is caught and caned, do you really think that will stop the bullying, or just make the bully careful to not get caught? You're not tackling the behaviour, just punishing it when it is detected. For example, I believe that a lot of Scandinavian school systems focus on restorative approaches to discipline, rather than punitive. I wonder how many of the teachers in the UK have even heard of restorative discipline. A lack of training for teachers is probably a big part of the problem. |
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 13:09
Child Abuse?? - -
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>> What we need is people who are actually experts in child behaviour to train the >> teachers. >> Please no more experts, the country's full of them and look at the state of it. Who trains the experts. |
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 13:20
Child Abuse?? - SteelSpark
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>> >> What we need is people who are actually experts in child behaviour to train >> the >> >> teachers. >> >> Please no more experts, the country's full of them and look at the state of >> it. >> >> Who trains the experts. Oh, come on GB. Of course people have real expertise in these areas, and that expertise should be applied. There are people who will have spent their entire careers studying child behaviour and discipline, including witnessing various approaches in various cultures and settings. Are we going to ignore them, and just replace that with the "common sense" and populist views of the masses? Last edited by: SteelSpark on Sun 18 Sep 11 at 13:20
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 13:40
Child Abuse?? - -
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>> There are people who will have spent their entire careers studying child behaviour and discipline, >> including witnessing various approaches in various cultures and settings. Well if their expert input is helping to correct the hell that many schools have become, they'd be better off finding another career. When i was at school i don't recall seeing a police officer on the premises, ever. Now we are at the other end of the scale where some schools apparently have full time officers, seems to me common sense discipline might have kept school order where common sense parents kept home order. Anyone here now over 50 gone home and complained about getting a whack from a teacher, i know i wouldn't, for i'd have been admitting some wrongdoing. As for my parents going down the school and gobbing off over some percieved injustice like some drunk, the mere thought just doesn't compute. As i said in the caning thread, and these two threads were bound to cross over, the school should have the right to publish it's discipline and behaviour code....don't like the methods, don't send your child here, but don't complain when your child learns nothing of value, not always purely academic learning either. If parents can't teach their children to behave then someone has to, or we end up with feral gangs of useless and illiterate unemployable youths. Again i re-iterate, physical punishment should only be the last resort, after going through an escalating scale of other methods. EDIT. To turn this around it's child abuse not to teach children with kindness and discipline. Last edited by: gordonbennet on Sun 18 Sep 11 at 13:41
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 13:51
Child Abuse?? - SteelSpark
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>> >> There are people who will have spent their entire careers studying child behaviour and >> discipline, >> >> including witnessing various approaches in various cultures and settings. >> >> Well if their expert input is helping to correct the hell that many schools have >> become, they'd be better off finding another career. The problem seems to be that there is no real investment. Going back to Finland for a moment, it seems that they had a failing school system in the 70s. They made radical changes, including significant training for teachers, and ongoing training for teachers throughout their careers. It may well be that we have access to the right experts, but no political will to change things. Why do we not look at a successful system and see what we can do to learn from, and maybe emulate it, rather that just resorting to some shortcut that some people think is "common sense"? >> As i said in the caning thread, and these two threads were bound to cross >> over, the school should have the right to publish it's discipline and behaviour code....don't like >> the methods, don't send your child here, but don't complain when your child learns nothing >> of value, not always purely academic learning either. Since when are schools a law unto themselves? If it is shown that you can have a successful school system without corporal punishment, then the schools here should be sorting their act out, rather than trying to resort to violence to solve problems. >> Again i re-iterate, physical punishment should only be the last resort, after going through an >> escalating scale of other methods. Again, I re-iterate, it has been shown that you can have an effective school system without physical punishment, so it is a fact that physical punishment is not needed in school systems even as a last resort. If a teacher cannot control a class without the threat of physical punishment, then they have a gap in their knowledge/skills that needs to be filled. |
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 13:59
Child Abuse?? - -
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>> Again, I re-iterate, it has been shown that you can have an effective school system >> without physical punishment, so it is a fact that physical punishment is not needed in >> school systems even as a last resort. >> >> If a teacher cannot control a class without the threat of physical punishment, then they >> have a gap in their knowledge/skills that needs to be filled. Much depends on where the school is sutuated and it's type of clients as you well know SS. Find a school that has a high proportion of Asian pupils, you'll find good behaviour on the whole, excellent education and high achievement...most importantly backed up by parents who will not tolerate poor behaviour from their offspring.....from when they were knee high to a grasshopper. Last edited by: gordonbennet on Sun 18 Sep 11 at 14:00
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 14:03
Child Abuse?? - SteelSpark
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>> Much depends on where the school is sutuated and it's type of clients as you >> well know SS. >> >> Find a school that has a high proportion of Asian pupils, you'll find good behaviour >> on the whole, excellent education and high achievement...most importantly backed up by parents who will >> not tolerate poor behaviour from their offspring.....from when they were knee high to a grasshopper. You don't get regarded as having the best school system in the world, simply be having a few good schools. |
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 13:46
Child Abuse?? - Meldrew
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| Just remind us about the broader aspects of the "Expertise" of those involved in the care and protection of Baby P. Isolated case some might say but not that isolated |
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 14:01
Child Abuse?? - SteelSpark
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What on earth is that supposed to mean? Is it supposed to mean that, because there was a failure in a case involving a child, we should then reject all expertise and just figure it out ourselves? If a plane crashes are we going to stop using people with expertise in building planes, and just build them using our own intuition and "common sense"? It wouldn't be so bad if it was all theoretical, but it's been shown in practice. You have arguably the best education system in the world, that does not use corporal punishment, and yet still many of the armchair experts here absolutely refuse to believe that is possible. What exactly would it take for these armchair experts to accept that their belief that corporal punishment is required in a successful school system might just possibly be wrong? |
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 14:07
Child Abuse?? - -
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>> What exactly would it take for these armchair experts to accept that their belief that >> corporal punishment is required in a successful school system might just possibly be wrong? The same as you who is adamant he is right. Last time i looked free thought hadn't been outlawed, given time it may be if the propaganda fails to keep the proletariat in check. |
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 14:19
Child Abuse?? - SteelSpark
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>> >> What exactly would it take for these armchair experts to accept that their belief >> that >> >> corporal punishment is required in a successful school system might just possibly be wrong? >> >> The same as you who is adamant he is right. >> >> Last time i looked free thought hadn't been outlawed, given time it may be if >> the propaganda fails to keep the proletariat in check. The difference GB, is that I have presented a fact, specifically that Finnish schools are often considered the best in the world, and yet do not use corporal punishment. I haven't simply said that I believe schools don't need corporal punishment to be successful, I have given a concrete example. On the other hand, you and others just continue to repeat your claim that schools do need corporal punishment to be successful, simply based on your own common sense. If your version of "free thought" is to have your own opinion, and never question it in the light of facts (not just other opinions), then good luck with that. |
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 14:30
Child Abuse?? - -
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>> The difference GB, is that I have presented a fact, specifically that Finnish schools are >> often considered the best in the world, and yet do not use corporal punishment. Marvellous, now have you also looked at the type of pupil that goes through the Finnish school system. Are they as a rule children that have some grounding in manners and behaviour from their caring parents? or are they the other sort. For every model Finnish school i'll wager you can find an equally good British one, and without fail the catchment parents will be responsible people who want their children to do well for themselves. Anyway, you and i will disagree on this for ever and we're hogging the thread so i'll buzz off to work. |
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 14:46
Child Abuse?? - SteelSpark
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>> >> The difference GB, is that I have presented a fact, specifically that Finnish schools >> are >> >> often considered the best in the world, and yet do not use corporal punishment. >> >> Marvellous, now have you also looked at the type of pupil that goes through the >> Finnish school system. >> >> Are they as a rule children that have some grounding in manners and behaviour from >> their caring parents? or are they the other sort. Sounds like we are getting back to the utopia argument. I'm sure there are plenty of bad parents and disruptive kids. If the kids are well behaved, then how have their parents managed that, without being able to smack them? It seems plenty of the parents on this thread never managed it, without administering a smack. If the parents don't know what they're doing and the teachers don't know what they are doing, let's just smack the kids until they behave. >> For every model Finnish school i'll wager you can find an equally good British one It's not just model schools, it is the school system as a whole that is being rated as the best in the world. Also, in Britain, many parents probably smack their kids, so it's hardly a good comparison, given that the question is something like "can a child's behaviour be controlled without the threat of violence?" Quite aside from discipline... "In Finland, students do not start school until they are seven years old, and attend classes for only four or five hours each day during their first two years of schooling. Yet by age 15, they score top in the world in tests of mathematics, science, reading and problem solving" To me, that shows that our school system is very poor in comparison and that our teachers are somewhat enthusiastic amateurs, compared to the Finnish professionals. It's not surprising, given that Finnish teachers are significantly better educated than ours. If they can't teach kids maths effectively, it's little surprise that they can't control them either. |
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 14:55
Child Abuse?? - Westpig
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I think we have enough perfectly well trained and committed teachers in this country.. but... they cannot do their jobs properly because of disruptive influences by a minority of pupils in their class rooms...and a very limited armoury to deal with it. No one in a reasoned arguement is suggesting in the slightest that all children should be hit. If you start properly as a parent, you shouldn't need to hit a kid at all beyond the slapped hand stage when very small. If parents haven't bothered, which a significant minority do not...then do we just give up? Allow the disrputive element to ruin all the other kids' education? There's no point going on about Finland...we aren't in Finland. Who's to say the Finnish way would work here with different problems and influences? |
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 15:05
Child Abuse?? - SteelSpark
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>> I think we have enough perfectly well trained and committed teachers in this country.. but... >> they cannot do their jobs properly because of disruptive influences by a minority of pupils >> in their class rooms...and a very limited armoury to deal with it. They are, on average, significantly less educated and supported than in many other countries. Why are they not able to achieve the same standards as in Finland, or even anywhere near? It's not right to say that they can't do their job because of disruption. The system in Finland gets the best results in the world, with probably a third less time spent in classrooms than the UK. Even if a third of all time was lost to disruptive pupils, they should still be matching Finland, but they are nowhere near. >> There's no point going on about Finland...we aren't in Finland. Who's to say the Finnish >> way would work here with different problems and influences? I very much doubt that, fundamentally, people are so different in Finland. What is radically different is the school system in Finland. If you ever have the chance, have a quick read up on the teacher education, research based practice, and support systems they have over there, and compare it to here. It is as we just can't be bothered. |
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 15:06
Child Abuse?? - Focusless
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>> There's no point going on about Finland...we aren't in Finland. ...but it did make me curious. Some interesting differences (which might or might not be relevant to this discussion): en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Finland "Classes are small, seldom more than twenty." "Inside the school, the atmosphere is relaxed and informal, and the buildings are so clean that students often wear socks and no shoes." ! Worth a read. |
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 17:01
Child Abuse?? - Pat
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>>The difference GB, is that I have presented a fact, specifically that Finnish schools are often considered the best in the world, and yet do not use corporal punishment. << But you have yet to prove to us that those two facts are in any way linked. Maybe you should explore the Finnish culture further to see what else could have some bearing on that. Pat |
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 14:39
Child Abuse?? - Meldrew
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It means exactly what I wrote, no long words, no problem. It is not reasonable to compare the performances of aircraft designers who deal with materials of known structure and proven mathematical formulae which govern flight, and those of social workers who are dealing with unpredictable unknowns like human nature and relationships. If they can't handle it well they should be referred to as workers and not experts. Think back to an alleged child abuse scandal in Northern Scotland where children were snatched from loving caring parents for years, on the say-so of an expert, who was wrong. I agree it hard to find the path between ignoring problems and over zealous reaction to the views of "Experts"
Last edited by: Meldrew on Sun 18 Sep 11 at 14:41
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 14:49
Child Abuse?? - SteelSpark
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>> It means exactly what I wrote, no long words, no problem. It is not reasonable >> to compare the performances of aircraft designers who deal with materials of known structure and >> proven mathematical formulae which govern flight, and those of social workers who are dealing with >> unpredictable unknowns like human nature and relationships. If they can't handle it well they should >> be referred to as workers and not experts. Think back to an alleged child abuse >> scandal in Northern Scotland where children were snatched from loving caring parents for years, on >> the say-so of an expert, who was wrong. I agree it hard to find the >> path between ignoring problems and over zealous reaction to the views of "Experts" So how does this relate to my earlier suggestion that there were real experts in the area of childhood behaviour and education, and that we should be listening to them rather than the views of people who have never studied the area and simple rely upon their supposed "common sense"? |
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 15:09
Child Abuse?? - Meldrew
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It relates to the fact that Experts do not have an unblemished record of success, possibly due to an overwhelming case load. Most parents, who have minimal expertise in raising children, but do have common sense, seem to make a good job of it, in the main, and with support of grandparents, GP Practice nurses, Nursery schools, parent and child classes etc. tinyurl.com/5wr9b52 The Experts didn't do a good job here IMO. I suggest experts are only as good as their track record not their paper qualifications. |
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 15:18
Child Abuse?? - SteelSpark
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>> It relates to the fact that Experts do not have an unblemished record of success No, of course not. >> Most parents, who have minimal expertise in raising >> children, but do have common sense, seem to make a good job of it, in >> the main, and with support of grandparents, GP Practice nurses, Nursery schools, parent and child >> classes etc. Yes, no doubt. >> The Experts didn't do a good job here IMO. I suggest experts are only as >> good as their track record >> not their paper qualifications. Of course. I'm really talking about experts with an extensive track record, genuine experts, not just somebody who calls themselves an expert. Even they make mistakes. I'm just suggesting that we shouldn't dismiss them, and replace them with our very limited experience and intuition. |
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 16:38
Child Abuse?? - Meldrew
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| I can go along with that, in general. However, in something as variable and unpredictable as human nature I imagine it is hard to be or become an expert. I am sure they mean well and do their best, and perhaps we hear more about the failures than the successes, but overall I'd be happier with informed and loving parenting. I think the experts may have a role to play when things have gone wrong and parenting and nurture have not produced a result |
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 17:56
Child Abuse?? - SteelSpark
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OK, your entitled to your opinion. I know this distrust of "experts" is widespread, and reinforced by the media, but frankly I think it's nonsensical . Certainly there are people that claim to be experts but aren't, and there is a problem with just labelling someone as an expert, but then there are genuine experts. There are plenty of people who work in positions, yet have nothing that would really be classified as expertise. There are experts in child behaviour, who may have their own children, but who will have studied child behaviour over many years, may have interviewed/observed thousands of parents, children and teachers, and will have studied the research of other who have done the same thing. To imagine that an individual, going on gut instinct and the very limited experience of other parents he has observed, can have the same amount of knowledge, seems unreasonable. Of course, they may have a system that works, which might involve hitting, or might not. But to suggest that they have nothing to learn from the aforementiond expert, seems a stretch to me. Still, as I said, you're obviously entitled to your opinion. |
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 22:09
Child Abuse?? - swiss tony
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Too many 'experts' gained their expertise out of a book, and have little or no real life experience. To say that is adequate is extremely short-sighted. I could read a book about brain surgery, and become an expert on the subject, but without real 'hands on' experience would I become a top brain surgeon? My favourite definition; Expert - Ex = Has been, Spurt = drip under pressure. |
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 22:55
Child Abuse?? - CGNorwich
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"I could read a book about brain surgery, and become an expert on the subject, but without real 'hands on' experience would I become a top brain surgeon?" By the same token you could hardly become a brain surgeon simply by experimental operations. I suspect that most brain surgeons have read a considerable number of books on the subject |
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 13:10
Child Abuse?? - Stuu
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Really though, its a society-wide problem because our criminal justice system seems to be incapable of enforcing justice and punishing wrong-doing in the way that people reallyw ish it could/would. Too many people 'get away with it' and as such, with adults having such huge opportunity to behave in a pretty uncivilised way, pretty much unchallenged, is any real wonder kids also dont have a clear idea of what is and isnt acceptable. So much minor crime is frankly ignored which sends out a very clear message that there are few if any consequences for the perp. This has created such a huge grey area for the line between right and wrong because its open to wide-ranging interpretation by kids, as kids naturally push for boundries and they are left struggling to even find a boundry. |
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 13:33
Child Abuse?? - Woodster
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| I have to confess to coming to this thread rather late and I haven't read it through. But if ear piercing is in question, what about circumcision? |
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 14:17
Child Abuse?? - Westpig
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>> I have to confess to coming to this thread rather late and I haven't read >> it through. But if ear piercing is in question, what about circumcision? >> I think you'll find you need to go to a different shop for that Woodster...;-) Last edited by: Westpig on Sun 18 Sep 11 at 14:18
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 15:43
Child Abuse?? - Cliff Pope
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| Pierced ears grow back. |
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 16:40
Child Abuse?? - captain chaos
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| Aye, it's too late once you've had yer pullover nicked... ;) |
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 17:03
Child Abuse?? - Pat
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Intact willy's don't :) Pat |
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 23:16
Child Abuse?? - FocalPoint
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"... if ear piercing is in question, what about circumcision?" In my view, circumcision, whether of a male or a female, unless carried out for medical reasons, is mutilation. It is a bizarre phenomenon with its origins in barbaric cultures and has no place in civilised society. Modern arguments claiming advantages of hygiene are spurious. I find all "body modification" repulsive. However, in terms of scale, ear-piercing is hardly in the same league; nonetheless, I would condemn both. |
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New Sun 18 Sep 11 23:31
Child Abuse?? - Dutchie
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And what about the downloading of porno material of children and god knows what else goes on. Anybody messes about with a child sorry in my book .You will be shot.! |
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