| Motoring Discussion > Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets | Miscellaneous |
| Thread Author: zippy | Replies: 79 |
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Thu 25 Aug 11 11:02
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - zippy
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Was in London yesterday and proceeding down a very busy one way street I was about to turn right when a cyclist hurtled down the cycle lane the wrong way. I could have easily have missed him, with the huge number of road signs, pedestrians obscuring the view, walking in to the road etc. Are they allowed to cycle the wrong way down a one way street? If so imho, it is a very silly idea and asking for an accident. |
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Thu 25 Aug 11 11:19
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Pat
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I think they think they are allowed to do anything Zippy, including putting the onus on us to keep them safe. I passed one on a single carriageway road in a built up area wearing full lycra and helmet with those handlebars they lean on................she was busy texting. Grrrr We remarked in the Dales that cyclist these days seem to want all of the rights of any motorised vehicle without paying their way or obeying any rules. First time we've ever been run up the grass verge by a cyclist on a single track road who refused to move from the middle of it. Bet he wouldn't have been as brave if I'd have been in the lorry. Pat |
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Thu 25 Aug 11 11:31
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - sherlock47
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>>>First time we've ever been run up the grass verge by a cyclist on a single track road who refused to move from the middle of it. Bet he wouldn't have been as brave if I'd have been in the lorry.<<< I have often wondered what the real use was for walking poles! Assuming the bike had spokes:) |
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Thu 25 Aug 11 12:13
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Bromptonaut
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>> First time we've ever been run up the grass verge by a cyclist on a >> single track road who refused to move from the middle of it. Bet he wouldn't >> have been as brave if I'd have been in the lorry. I would Pat, Mondeo or Scania. I'm not diving in the gutter so motorists who've ignored a passing place can zoom past inches away at 20mph+. And as AF observes I pay my way too. Churchill abolished the 'road fund' in the twenties. Roads are paid for out of general taxation. And if low/zero emissions cars get a nil ratre of VED the same principle applies to cyclists. |
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Thu 25 Aug 11 12:19
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Pat
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There were no passing places but the cyclist had just passed a gateway. It's the attitude the give out that does them no favours because we'd met any number of cars and we'd all happily pulled over and edged by each other bit by bit with a cheery wave and a smile. Taxation you object to, but how about a licence to ride them being compulsory then with some sort of road awareness training to gain it? It might improve their aim and their image. Pat |
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Thu 25 Aug 11 12:28
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Alanovich
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>>but how about a licence to ride them being compulsory then >> with some sort of road awareness training to gain it? >> >> It might improve their aim and their image. An argument you would absolutely stand against if applied to 4x4s, pda, which I have mooted in the past. Vehicles which pose, I think you'll agree, a far more significant risk of injury and death to other road users than bicycles. Your stand here is pretty much "4 (or 18) wheels good, 2 wheels bad". For the record, I'd be in favour of a licencing and compulsory insurance for cyclists (me included), I just find it interesting that you support such a scheme for road users who pose a far lesser threat than other types, which as yet do not have specialist licencing/training in place. |
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Thu 25 Aug 11 13:31
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Bromptonaut
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>> Taxation you object to, but how about a licence to ride them being compulsory then >> with some sort of road awareness training to gain it? Training would be good though if it followed the excellent 'Cyclecraft' it would reinforce behaviours, particularly assertiveness, of which you'd probably dissaprove. Licensing is, IMHO, a sledgehammer to a pretty small nut. The two offences most complained of, jumping red lights and ignoring zebra crossing rules are already offences. People ignore them because they get away with it (like speeding!). How would you aply licensing in practice? Minimum age 11? What would you test? Car/lorry tests came in because by the twenties people were dying on the roads in absolute numbers far higher than today's 3000pa The damage done to other people by cylcists simply doesn't justify the expense/effort. The image thing is peculiar to the UK. Perhaps it's rooted in a class/status thing, bit like Maggie Thatcher's famous comment about men over 25 still travelling by bus? |
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Thu 25 Aug 11 13:41
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Pat
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>>particularly assertiveness, of which you'd probably dissaprove. << Now that's a little unfair. An assertive cyclist is an experienced and aware cyclist and can be spotted by any good driver. The difference is in being bullheaded and assertive. >>The damage done to other people by cylcists simply doesn't justify the expense/effort.<< I'm thinking more along the lines of the damage done to cyclist by themselves when they are the cause of accidents. Pat |
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Thu 25 Aug 11 13:45
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - NortonES2
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| Pat. You perhaps forget (if you have ever ridden) that grass verges and single-track vehicles are incompatible. You can't trickle a road bike along the verge - its likely to be more than a trifle dodgy. Maybe on a MTB, but I'd not risk it. In London especially, the problem is not with the law, its the lack of enforcement, right across the board. For every biker-as-a-hooligan story there are as many for the 4-wheeled variety. Different breaches of the law, but still breaches. Obviously the training given is tokenism:) |
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Thu 25 Aug 11 11:29
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Notdoctorchris
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Apart from specifically marked cycle lanes that run against the traffic flow, cycling the wrong way down a one-way street is not permitted. Cyclists are meant to observe all the rules of the road that other road users are subject to. I'm a keen cyclist, in a North East city, not London. Last week I tried cycling in London, on one of Boris' Bicycles. My powerful cycling technique broke the chain within a couple of minutes, but that's another story. My experience of cycling in London is that there's no provision for cyclists which keeps them out of the flow of huge buses, delivery vehicles and taxis. I realise that there just isn't space to provide for cyclists. Anyhow, what happens is that the cyclist, if he observes the rules of the road, finds he is sprinting from traffic light to traffic light, is repeatedly held up and repeatedly thrown amongst the heavy vehicles. I can understand why failing to observe traffic rules is almost the norm. If the cyclist does not jump red traffic lights, then he makes no better progress than if he was walking. I admit to cycling on pavements at home, I do it at low speed and with care. The pavements in London are so busy that this is not a practical option. Once I had selected another bike, after breaking the chain of my first one, I gave up after 25 minutes cycling as walking was just as quick because I didn't have the nerve to jump red lights and otherwise break the rules. If cycling is to become a practical and safe means of transport in Central London then a rethink beyond simply providing bicycles for hire is needed. |
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Thu 25 Aug 11 11:41
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Pat
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>>If cycling is to become a practical and safe means of transport in Central London then a rethink beyond simply providing bicycles for hire is needed.<< Oh it will. TFL is on a mission to educate all other road users to avoid them, when the simple option would be to train the cyclists. Pat |
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Thu 25 Aug 11 11:55
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - bathtub tom
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I've seen cycle lanes permitting bikes to travel the 'wrong' way down one-way streets in London. I don't think I'd be brave enough to cycle in London, let alone use one of those lanes. |
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Thu 25 Aug 11 17:01
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - zippy
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>>I've seen cycle lanes permitting bikes to travel the 'wrong' way down one-way streets in London. >>I don't think I'd be brave enough to cycle in London, let alone use one of those lanes. Exactly! I don't like driving in London and was getting thoroughly lost around the Hammersmith gyratory (don't know what it's proper name is), and trying to avoid the myriad pedestrians intent on suicide and the ambulances heading hear there and everywhere with their blues and twos on. I was traveling at about 10MPH and luckily stopped in time. He was doing about 20MPH down hill and I think was luck not to have been hit. I am all for cycle lanes, but they need to be sensible and safe. If they allow contra flow then that is clearly not safe! |
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Thu 25 Aug 11 12:05
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Bromptonaut
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There are some streets in London where 'contra flow' cycling is permitted. Endsleigh Gardens near Euston is one example. The main purpose is probably to link the Boris Bike dock at the east end of the road via quiet streets to the segregated East West route that runsalong Tavistock Place etc. There's no marked lane and, were this not a quiet side road used mainly by taxis, I'd find it quite disconcerting and possibly dangerous. An oddity here is that although 'No Entry Except' has been common in other applications (bus faciliites for example or deliveries) DfT think 'No Entry Except Cyclists' is too confusing and the 'No Motor vehicles' prohibition is used instead. There are other places, Theobalds Rd>Vernon PLace>Bloomsbury Way for instance, where contraflow bus lanes are barred to cyclists. The rationale for the ban is the danger of cyclists overtaking into oncoming traffic or being crushed against the railings installed to protect the buses from dopey pedestrians. Occasionally there is a PCSO enforcong the bar and sending folks the road way round via High Holborn. My own view is it's useable with care but I see plenty of ignorant twits squeezing up the sdie of a bus that might move any time. |
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Thu 25 Aug 11 12:07
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Fursty Ferret
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Pat - completely agree with you about cyclists that run red lights. If I had my way they'd be taken away and summarily shot. However, the road user's petty argument of "THEY DON'T PAY ROAD TAX!!!!!11!!" is a fallacy and unfortunately tends to identify them as bigoted and uneducated about the situation. You, as a driver, do not pay road tax. You pay vehicle excise duty, which is completely different. Roads are funded out of general taxation, of which nearly everyone contributes. Perhaps you should argue instead that people who pay more tax are more entitled to use the roads? Interestingly, you mention that on a singletrack road you were "forced up the grass verge" by a cyclist. So, were you either going too fast to stop in the distance you could see to be clear (in which case, presumably, had another car been coming you'd have hit them), or you felt that the cyclist, who's much less protected, should be forced into the side of the road to make way for you? Clearly, being in a car means you MUST have priority. As a cyclist AND a driver I consider myself more than entitled to use the roads and I ride safely and legally. This doesn't, however, stop me having a close call nearly every time I ride and this ranges from a huge number of things, of which you might appreciate a list. Do you do any of these? * People who make eye contact and then pull out of junctions regardless. They probably wouldn't do it if it was a car because of the risk of damage, but obviously it's "only a cyclist". * People who get frustrated and sound their horns when a bike is riding in the main carriageway. "USE THE ****** CYCLE LANE" is a common yell in my neck of the woods, and I would were it not for the numerous cars parked in it. Police not interesting, and I have no doubt that the people shouting abuse are the first to park in one. Do you? Answer honestly. * Cars, buses, lorries, that overtake and then turn left. Clearly, you've seen me in order to move out and overtake, so why are you attempting to turn your 30 metres of lorry right across me and force me to leap out of the way? Certainly, cyclists that lurk in the blindspot of a lorry at traffic lights are asking for trouble, but this is different. * People who try to move out into the traffic from a parking space by pulling and turning the nose of the car into the road. Clearly, this will wind up a cyclist as you've forced them to move across, probably abruptly, into the main traffic flow or come to a screeching halt. * Drivers who pass with inches to spare, reasoning that it's the cyclist's own fault if they're hit. During this maneuver they fail to consider the possibility that the bike might need to move out a bit or swerve to avoid broken glass or a pothole in the gutter. You would never attempt a half-baked overtake in your wagon by passing a car and not even crossing the white line, why is this different? * Pedestrians who decide to cross the road by stepping into it, and THEN looking, which has once resulted in a painful collision or further injuries to the cyclist. Interestingly, I found myself in a similar situation to the one you describe last week, riding down a road with cars parked either side and a passing space at either end. I was well into the road when a car moved into the narrow bit, expecting me to either squeeze into one of the gaps between cars or take my chance being passing in the narrow section. I held my ground and got abuse for it. Naturally, you think I should have stopped to give way to you, because clearly, being in a motor vehicle, you're more important. Irresponsible cyclists are certainly a danger to other road users - primarily pedestrians - but there is no doubt that the true danger comes from cars and heavy vehicles. You might be surprised to learn that your attitude is almost unknown on the continent. Until drivers stop seeing cyclists as pests and instead accede them equal rights on the road, the death toll will continue to rise. |
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Thu 25 Aug 11 12:23
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Meldrew
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| What are the CO2 emissions of a cyclist? |
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Thu 25 Aug 11 12:26
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Mapmaker
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>> What are the CO2 emissions of a cyclist? There was (apparently) a BMJ article that proved that 4-up in a Fiesta is better for the environment than cycling from a CO2 perspective. |
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Thu 25 Aug 11 12:35
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Bromptonaut
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>> There was (apparently) a BMJ article that proved that 4-up in a Fiesta is better >> for the environment than cycling from a CO2 perspective. I'd love to see it but I suspect an urban myth. |
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Thu 25 Aug 11 13:05
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Meldrew
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An answer to my own question! It doesn't matter how much carbon dioxide you exhale when you ride your bike, because none of it contributes to the buildup of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. This buildup is caused by burning fossil fuels, which releases carbon that has been bound up in the slow carbon cycle for millions of years. All the carbon you exhale came from plants that you ate. Or from animals or fungi you ate, but the animals and fungi got it from plants. The plants got it from the atmosphere. So the carbon you exhale was in the atmosphere no more than a year or two previously, and even if you hadn't eaten it and exhaled it, it would soon end up back in the atmosphere. |
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Thu 25 Aug 11 13:53
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Cliff Pope
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>> >> It doesn't matter how much carbon dioxide you exhale when you ride >> your bike, because none of it contributes to the buildup of carbon >> dioxide in the atmosphere. >> If a cyclist over his lifetime exhales more carbon dioxide than a couch-potato or a car driver then that means he has eaten more food, used more heat to cook it, contributed to water use and soil erosion, used more food-miles, and probably has increased public sewerage costs :) |
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Thu 25 Aug 11 14:01
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Meldrew
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Too many conflicting opinions in the reference sources. I don't cycle, I don't eat burgers and my brain hurts!
Last edited by: Meldrew on Thu 25 Aug 11 at 14:04
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Thu 25 Aug 11 13:54
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Mapmaker
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Meldrew>>All the carbon you exhale came from >>plants that you ate. Or from animals or fungi you ate, but the >>animals and fungi got it from plants. Not so. The animals ate corn that was fed with fertiliser made with fossil fuels and harvested with fuel made from fossil fuels. Here's the Guardian suggesting that if you eat cheeseburgers then the moment you have more than two people in the car you should go by car rather than cycling. www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/jun/08/carbon-footprint-cycling |
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Thu 25 Aug 11 14:01
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Bromptonaut
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>> Here's the Guardian suggesting that if you eat cheeseburgers then the moment you have more >> than two people in the car you should go by car rather than cycling. >> >> www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/jun/08/carbon-footprint-cycling But that seems to assume the car passengers eat nothing? What if they're going out for a cheeseburger (or even some airfreighted asparagus!) |
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Thu 25 Aug 11 12:28
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - sooty123
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>> What are the CO2 emissions of a cyclist? >> Depends on the amount of huffing and puffing :) Last edited by: sooty123 on Thu 25 Aug 11 at 12:28
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Thu 25 Aug 11 12:45
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Pat
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>> Interestingly, you mention that on a singletrack road you were "forced up the grass verge" >> by a cyclist. So, were you either going too fast to stop in the distance >> you could see to be clear (in which case, presumably, had another car been coming >> you'd have hit them), or you felt that the cyclist, who's much less protected, should >> be forced into the side of the road to make way for you? Clearly, being >> in a car means you MUST have priority. See above: The cyclist should have pulled into the only available gateway as any polite road user would, and did, do. >> Do you do any of these? >> * People who make eye contact and then pull out of junctions regardless. >> Certainly not, I find it increasingly difficult to make eye contact with any cyclist as they all seem to look at their own front wheel, and that makes me very uneasy as eye contact is one of the best safety rules to learn. >> * People who get frustrated and sound their horns when a bike is riding in >> the main carriageway. "USE THE ****** CYCLE LANE" is a common yell in my neck >> of the woods, and I would were it not for the numerous cars parked in >> it. Police not interesting, and I have no doubt that the people shouting abuse are >> the first to park in one. Do you? Answer honestly. >> No, I honestly do not use the word you've starred. *tut* >> * Cars, buses, lorries, that overtake and then turn left. Clearly, you've seen me in >> order to move out and overtake, so why are you attempting to turn your 30 >> metres of lorry right across me and force me to leap out of the way? >> Certainly, cyclists that lurk in the blindspot of a lorry at traffic lights are asking >> for trouble, but this is different. >> Dodgy perception of distance and length there...a lorry is only approx 18m long:) Now you begin to see why we don't trust you. >> * People who try to move out into the traffic from a parking space by >> pulling and turning the nose of the car into the road. Clearly, this will wind >> up a cyclist as you've forced them to move across, probably abruptly, into the main >> traffic flow or come to a screeching halt. >> I think that chip on the shoulder is beginning to get a bit heavy. >> * Drivers who pass with inches to spare, reasoning that it's the cyclist's own fault >> if they're hit. During this maneuver they fail to consider the possibility that the bike >> might need to move out a bit or swerve to avoid broken glass or a >> pothole in the gutter. You would never attempt a half-baked overtake in your wagon by >> passing a car and not even crossing the white line, why is this different? >> It isn't different, I would never do it in my lorry or my car, I think far to much of the paintwork. >> * Pedestrians who decide to cross the road by stepping into it, and THEN looking, >> which has once resulted in a painful collision or further injuries to the cyclist. >> I don't do walking in towns, but maybe if the cyclist was looking ahead they would have seen and anticipated this happening. > Interestingly, I found myself in a similar situation to the one you describe last week, >> riding down a road with cars parked either side and a passing space at either >> end. I was well into the road when a car moved into the narrow bit, >> expecting me to either squeeze into one of the gaps between cars or take my >> chance being passing in the narrow section. I held my ground and got abuse for >> it. Naturally, you think I should have stopped to give way to you, because clearly, >> being in a motor vehicle, you're more important. See above, I expect the other 'vehicle' to take the first available place to pull in, it works for motorised vehicles but clearly cyclists don't think they should do that. >> Until drivers stop seeing cyclists as pests and instead accede them equal rights on the >> road, the death toll will continue to rise. When they have to obey the rules, take a proficiency test and ban riding two abreast then stistics will fall. Pat |
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Fri 26 Aug 11 10:30
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Fursty Ferret
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But those are all things done by any inconsiderate motorist, not just cyclists. PS - 18m, 30m; how long is is depends on how fast it's going. Also, what if it has two trailers? ;-) |
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Thu 25 Aug 11 13:47
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Bromptonaut
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>> TFL is on a mission to educate all other road users to avoid them, when >> the simple option would be to train the cyclists. >> >> Pat No amount of training for cyclists will stop vehicle drivers doing dodgy overtakes followed by a stop or left turn. Cars doing this are enough of a threat, buses and trucks pulling the same stunt kill. The nearest I've ever come to disaster was a bus that got half past me before remebering there was a stop ahead. HGVs are disproportinately rersponsible for cyclist deaths in London. Some may be the rider's fault but others have not been. Cement mixers, for reasons you alluded to in the SWT rail accident thread (instability combined with piece work) are a particular menace. Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 25 Aug 11 at 13:48
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Thu 25 Aug 11 14:12
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Pat
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I'd be interested to see the stats for that, and also the stats for accidents involving cyclists where the blame is apportioned to them. Of course it won't happen because all we ever hear is 'cyclist knocked off by lorry/car'. Both lorry and car drivers quickly learn defensive driving and how to use that along with progressive driving to make progress within the law. It's time cyclist stopped thinking all other road users hate them and stop reacting accordingly. Give and take will earn mutual respect and that apples for all of us. Pat |
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Thu 25 Aug 11 14:19
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Alanovich
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>> Give and take will earn mutual respect and that apples for all of us. Pat, I can't help thinking you want all the take and none of the give, here. You'd have been satisfied with the cyclist giving way in your tale, he may have been annoyed or inconvenienced, or worse, put in danger, by having to do so. In one -on-ones, there's always going to be a giver and a taker, when are you the giver? Are there times when you give way to cyclists? Deliberately hang back and let them go first? |
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Thu 25 Aug 11 14:25
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Pat
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Alanovic if you had ever driven an artic in Central London you wouldn't need to ask that question. We all prefer a cyclist where we can see what they are going to get up to next. If you manage to get past one they just come up the inside (or the outside) at the next set of lights. Seeing as you don't seem to understand my original scenario I will try and explanin it more clearly. It was a narrow single track Dale road. We were doing about 20MPH when a cyclist appeared coming towards us in the middle of the road. There wasn't room to pass safely unless one pulled over. We slowed down even further expecting the cyclist to pull into the gateway on his side of the road but he kept coming towards the car bonnet cursing and swearing at us. We ended up pulling up onto the grass to allow him to pass withoutgetting near the verge. Is it unreasonable to see that as complete ignorance, I don't think so. Pat |
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Thu 25 Aug 11 14:31
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Alanovich
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Maybe you have never ridden a bicycle up a single track Dale Road, much as I have never driven an artic in central London. So perhaps you don't have a full understanding of the rider's perspective. You don't have a full knowledge of the rider's needs at that exact moment. It seems to me that only someone who should not be allowed day release from their padded cell would deliberately cycle in to the path of an oncoming Ford Mondeo, so perhaps there's a gap in your knowledge of the situation which caused the rider to expect/hope that you might give way. Give and take, as you say. This time you had to give, but you're upset about it. So where's your spirit of give in the theory of give and take? My reaction would have been a shrug of the shoulders, and then carry on as I was, once he'd gone. On the basis that 99.99% of people on bikes don't play chicken with cars for the sake of it, or to make a point. |
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Thu 25 Aug 11 14:35
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - TheManWithNoName
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>> Maybe you have never ridden a bicycle up a single track Dale Road, much as >> I have never driven an artic in central London. >> >> So perhaps you don't have a full understanding of the rider's perspective. You don't have >> a full knowledge of the rider's needs at that exact moment. It seems to me >> that only someone who should not be allowed day release from their padded cell would >> deliberately cycle in to the path of an oncoming Ford Mondeo, so perhaps there's a >> gap in your knowledge of the situation which caused the rider to expect/hope that you >> might give way. >> >> Give and take, as you say. This time you had to give, but you're upset >> about it. So where's your spirit of give in the theory of give and take? >> >> My reaction would have been a shrug of the shoulders, and then carry on as >> I was, once he'd gone. On the basis that 99.99% of people on bikes don't >> play chicken with cars for the sake of it, or to make a point. >> Just a thought but perhaps motorised transport should give way to non-motorised just like steam gives way to sail. |
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Thu 25 Aug 11 14:37
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Alanovich
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| Quite so, TMWNN. |
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Thu 25 Aug 11 14:43
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Pat
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I think you're deliberately missing the point Alanovic. We refused to pass him that closely so one of us had to stop for a second. As he cycled past a gateway and deliberately kept coming while cursing I think you can safely say the fault was his. We thought it was funny, and certainly the first time a cyclist had forced us off the road but that led to a conversation about attitudes....and he certainly had one! Had we have kept going in a straight line and left him no option but to get off and up on the verge, you could have blamed me entirely but that didn't happen. I think this is a classic example of the 'attitude' I mentioned in another post. I know Yorkshire folk are strange...maybe that was it:) Pat PS Had there have been a gate way on our side of the road we'd have happily pulled into it. Last edited by: pda on Thu 25 Aug 11 at 14:47
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Thu 25 Aug 11 14:48
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Bromptonaut
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>> I know Yorkshire folk are strange...maybe that was it:) >> >> Pat Oy - you've already roused me me griping about cyclists - don't make it worse by attacking my origins ;-)) |
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Thu 25 Aug 11 14:50
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Alanovich
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>> I think you're deliberately missing the point Alanovic. Erm, why would I deliberately do that? >> I think you can safely say the fault was his. I don't think anyone can safely say that, not even your good selves (even though you very much want to). I stand by the point that it's incredibly unlikely that a cyclist would deliberately drive at the front of a Ford Mondeo doing 20mph until it yielded. >> We thought it was funny, and certainly the first time a cyclist had forced us >> off the road but that led to a conversation about attitudes....and he certainly had one! Well I may have been wrong here thinking you were angry about it, it certainly seemed so from the outset. Perhaps he had an attitude, but I seriously doubt it's the one you think - i.e. it is unlikely to have been: "I will keep cycling down the middle of the road despite any and all oncoming traffic". >> I know Yorkshire folk are strange...maybe that was it:) >> Well, I can't fault your facts there! ;-) |
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Thu 25 Aug 11 14:58
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Pat
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When you're on the road all day, every day in all weathers you soon stop getting wound up at other road users whether it's cyclist lorries or cars etc. It's the quick route to having an accident and stress just mars you're good judgement anyway. The only thing that winds me up a bit is mobility scooters:) They are lethal. Pat |
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Thu 25 Aug 11 14:38
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Bromptonaut
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>> We were doing about 20MPH when a >> cyclist appeared coming towards us in the middle of the road. There wasn't room to >> pass safely unless one pulled over. We slowed down even further expecting the cyclist to >> pull into the gateway on his side of the road but he kept coming towards >> the car bonnet cursing and swearing at us. >> >> We ended up pulling up onto the grass to allow him to pass withoutgetting near >> the verge. >> >> Is it unreasonable to see that as complete ignorance, I don't think so. >> >> Pat The bolded bit says it for me Pat. At 20 on a single track you're hurtling towards me and I'm not inclined to ditch dive so you can maintain that speed and whistle past my handlebar. In the scenario you describe I'd expect to have gone for the gateway but who's to say whether he saw you soon enough or whether he thought you were bullying him? |
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Thu 25 Aug 11 14:32
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Bromptonaut
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Pat Cyclist do defensive as well. It underlies much of what's in Cyclecraft and veterans from the seventies learned it from Richard Ballantine. There's a guy postiong as Redfalo on cycling forums putting something together on fatalities in London. Not sure how up to date it is but gives the general position. tinyurl.com/3h7nh5r |
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Thu 25 Aug 11 12:25
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Mapmaker
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| As I walk from the tube to the office I am, most mornings, nearly hit by cyclists ignoring red lights. Always at the same spot. I have taken to swearing at them; occasionally there is an apology. |
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Thu 25 Aug 11 12:33
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Bromptonaut
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There do seem to be some favourite spots for RLJ. I wait patiently at the junction of High Holborn and Proctor St every night while several take their chances merging into the traffic turning South to West. Of those who go on to turn up Southampton Row I pass the majority before Theobald's Road. |
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Thu 25 Aug 11 12:55
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Bigtee
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| Us cyclist can do as we like to a point as when im entering traffic lights at red i just go through if safe to do so & kerb riding not often but yes if i need to. |
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Thu 25 Aug 11 12:59
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - sooty123
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>> Us cyclist can do as we like to a point as when im entering traffic >> lights at red i just go through if safe to do so & kerb riding >> not often but yes if i need to. >> And they're off! |
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Thu 25 Aug 11 13:06
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - BobbyG
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As mentioned previously I have taken to cycling to and from work for at least 3 days a week. Cycling definitely gives a different perspective and I have seen previously suggestions that all car drivers should have to do the CBT test to get the perspective of a motorcyclist. Similarly, commuting on a main road on your pedal bike is totally different to many people's ideas of bike riding. I cycle 13 miles each way and off that, I would realistically state that for about 4 to 5 miles of that, I cannot cycle within 2 feet of the kerb. Some sections have broken glass, some raised drainers, melted tarmac (yes, in Scotland!) and the rest is just potholes and broken tarmac. So to a car driver behind me, it may look like I am being ignorant, for me it is about survival. Similarly, if I pass a row of parked cars and try and keep close to them, vehicles will pass me very close (as that is all the space they have) leaving me no safety zone. Therefore I will always pass parked cars leaving at least a door opening width of space. That then prevents other vehicles overtaking me. At several traffic light junctions in Glasgow they now have created a cycle lane (for about 10 yards) at the front and a designated cycle "box" at the head of the queue. However, again survival mode comes in so at certain 4 way traffic lights, where I know the sequence, I will bump up onto the pavement, cross the road and then carry on my journey. That way I am not holding up the other vehicles setting off from the lights. And so far, the only time I have been knocked off my bike was when a pedestrian crossed the road, stopped when I rang my bell, made eye contact with me and then as I passed, he started walking again! I have been on the receiving end of various expletives from motorists but I firmly believe that it is due to their frustration realising that I am making better progress than them! For the first 4 to 5 miles from my work, due to traffic lights, cycle paths etc I can usually be ahead of them and that annoys some people!! |
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Thu 25 Aug 11 16:00
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - FocalPoint
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In this argument between Pat and some of the others people seem to have lost sight of the facts, as Pat puts them. She says, "It was a narrow single track Dale road. We were doing about 20MPH when a cyclist appeared coming towards us in the middle of the road." She also mentions the cyclist was swearing and had ignored a gateway into which he could have pulled. Irrespective of whether you want to believe her, that's what she says and the argument should start from that basic premise. Points about cyclists not paying their way or ignoring road signs cloud the issue. My take on it is that this is pretty bizarre behaviour from the cyclist. Assuming that the parties could not pass unless one got at least partly off the carriageway, and he was behaving aggressively, I would have pulled to my left as far as was practicable, come to a halt and just waited. If there was room to pass, end of problem. If there was insufficient room and the cyclist expected the car to reverse, I would probably eventually have done that, feeling I had made my point and that it wasn't worth making anything more of it. Why did the cyclist do it? Arrogant, aggressive behaviour, caused by something about Pat's car, or completely unrelated to it; he got out of bed the wrong side; his wife had just left him; he had a death-wish; he was just a very bad cyclist, etc, etc. Who knows? Some people are just idiots anyway. Last edited by: FocalPoint on Thu 25 Aug 11 at 16:02
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Thu 25 Aug 11 16:25
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Bromptonaut
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FP, We only have Pat's recount of the story and not the cyclists. We don't know the exact position with the gate or why he might have missed or ignored the opportunity to use it as a passing place. It's quite common to be cycling along a narrow lane and have a car appear round a bend 50/70 yards ahead. He may be doing 30-40 (but 20 is enough to be alarming) and shows little sign of slackening. Even if the cyclist moves to the edge of the road it's not safe to be passed at that speed with less than 2 feet to spare; the rub is that moving to the edge encourages exactly that sort of a pass. So instead the trick is to move to the middle and force him to slow down and pass you with the same consideration that would be applied for a car. The highway code suggests giving a cyclist as much room as a car in the overtake and the same principle applies to a tight pass. Obviously the cyclist needs to be ready to dive for the ditch if faced with a real loon but in most cases the motorist is just not thinking. Not much point if cursing and blinding but if Pat was the fifth close encounter of the morning he might have been getting a bit fraught. Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 26 Aug 11 at 01:50
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Thu 25 Aug 11 16:34
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Alanovich
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Stop beeing so blooming reasonable, BA. "I think you can safely say the fault was his." |
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Thu 25 Aug 11 16:46
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Pat
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Well, I think that says it all *sigh* I've tried to explain it fully. You all 'know' me but not the cyclist. Two very experienced HGV drivers in the car with excellent observation skills. I've stated we were doing 20MPH and slowed down to allow him to go into the only available gateway. And still my word is put into question and once again it seems to be that this forum is it's very own kangaroo court. Is it any wonder people can't be bothered to post about day to day experiences? Pat |
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Thu 25 Aug 11 16:57
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Bromptonaut
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Pat, I'm posting my day to day experience as a cyclist and a car driver. Inevitably my perspective differs from that of some other drivers. I'm not putting your word in question and i deliberately shifted my example away from Yorkshire. At the same time you've made some pretty strong and very generalised assertions about cyclists generally. I'm sorry if that seems like a kangaroo ct; I'm honestly just trying to put an alterntative perspective. |
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Thu 25 Aug 11 17:03
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Pat
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I see that but I could also post my day to day experiences as a lorry driver in towns like London, Cambridge and Oxford, but I refrained from doing so. After all, it only results in a tit for tat account and I notice no-one has commented on the lady cyclist texting? It doesn't alter the fact that a great many of us refrain from contributing because a quick posted comment can result in a day long vindication of your actions. Not much fun really and easier to just read the threads and say nowt! Pat |
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Thu 25 Aug 11 17:11
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - zippy
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The point to make is that cycling should be safe. It is good practice for a cyclist to "take the lane" where it benefits their safety as supported by cycling safety groups. Every road user has equivalent rights to use the road safely, including pedestrians, cyclists, motorbikes, cars and lorries. However, my gripe is with what appears to be crazy road planning that puts squishy things in conflict big metal things. Its an accident waiting to happen! The same applies to bikes on pedestrian pavements. Last edited by: zippy on Thu 25 Aug 11 at 17:13
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Thu 25 Aug 11 17:19
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Mapmaker
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>> Well, I think that says it all *sigh* >> Two very experienced HGV drivers in the car with excellent observation skills. >> I've stated we were doing 20MPH and slowed down to allow him to go into >> the only available gateway. And what about the cyclist who writes: Well I think that says it all *sigh* A very experienced cyclist with excellent observation skills. I've stated I was doing 20mph and slowed down to allow her to go into the only available gateway but she sat there in the middle of the road acting as though she owned the place. |
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Thu 25 Aug 11 17:21
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Pat
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I give up MM, you've stuck your oar into this one a litlle bit late so the floor is yours. Hang me, I really couldn't care less. Pat Edit to add: He might have had excellent observation skills but he couldn't se a ***** gateway 8 Foot wide> Last edited by: pda on Thu 25 Aug 11 at 17:24
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Thu 25 Aug 11 17:54
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - FocalPoint
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Sorry guys - I fail to see why so many people are giving Pat a hard time. Seems to me too many of you are desperately (and perversely) trying to see things from an alternative point of view. Of course we have only Pat's account of the events, but on the face of it any cyclist determinedly cycling down the middle of a single-track road towards an oncoming car and ignoring a convenient gateway is acting bizarrely, to say the least. |
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Thu 25 Aug 11 18:02
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - zippy
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Pat, Aggressive road positioning is taught to cyclists. If car drivers did the same, there would be carnage! I seem to have been down a few country lanes this week and pulled in to the hedge or reversed a bit and other drivers did the same for me, it is common courtesy really! The cyclist should have moved if there was space for him to do it more easily than you. |
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Thu 25 Aug 11 18:18
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Iffy
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I have occasionally seen cyclists on rural roads behaving as Pat describes. Seems to me they are in leafy lane bike ride mode, and their main objection to a car is that it is there at all. |
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Thu 25 Aug 11 18:40
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Runfer D'Hills
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Dear Lord here we go again. "They" are all just people whether they're on foot, on a bike, on a motor bike, in a car or in a truck. Some people, however they choose to move themselves are ignorant twonks. The rest of us just have to accept that and do our best not to be inconvenienced by them.. I walk, cycle and drive regularly. In all cases you just have to keep your wits about you and recognise that some of the others have none. Last edited by: Humph D'Bout on Thu 25 Aug 11 at 18:41
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Thu 25 Aug 11 19:45
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - bathtub tom
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Now this is what I'd call aggressive cycling: www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIe6hYAdw_I&feature=share ;>) |
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Thu 25 Aug 11 20:03
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Runfer D'Hills
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That bloke in Chile is a wuss. We used to ride down the Vennel steps in Edinburgh on our way home from school most days. For anyone who knows where I mean, they were much steeper and longer than any of those the guy on the vid had to deal with. What's more he was on a sussed MTB. We were on "racers" with schoolbags on our backs ! We had to avoid pedestrians, dogs, tramps, American tourists ( they're wide ) and keep shottie for the polis all at the same time. :-) |
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Thu 25 Aug 11 20:38
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Focusless
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>> Now this is what I'd call aggressive cycling: www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIe6hYAdw_I&feature=share Wow. That leap at 2:26... BTW as a cyclist I'm with Pat on this one - even if there wasn't a gate I'd just head for the side of the road, without going mountain biking on the verge. |
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Thu 25 Aug 11 21:18
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Boxsterboy
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| Great vid. As a pedestrian, cyclist and driver I too am with Pat on this. But then perhaps my judgement is coloured by having been missed by a cyclist jumping the red light on a pedestrian crossing (again) today. Or maybe that's just London? |
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Fri 26 Aug 11 13:09
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - TheManWithNoName
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>> Dear Lord here we go again. >> >> "They" are all just people whether they're on foot, on a bike, on a motor >> bike, in a car or in a truck. Some people, however they choose to move >> themselves are ignorant twonks. The rest of us just have to accept that and do >> our best not to be inconvenienced by them.. >> >> I walk, cycle and drive regularly. In all cases you just have to keep your >> wits about you and recognise that some of the others have none. >> Well put Humph. The bottom line is it doesn't matter whether you drive, ride, fly or walk there will always be 'some idiot' who does something daft. That 'idiot' may even be you from time to time. As long as people are in control of any mode of transport there will be incidents and accidents, hints and allegations (hey I could use that in a song). We simply have to deal with it. |
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Fri 26 Aug 11 13:18
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Iffy
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...Well put Humph... More a statement of the bleedin' obvious. Of course Pat was dealing with it - at the time, and by posting the incident as a discussion point on here. |
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Fri 26 Aug 11 10:39
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Bromptonaut
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>> Pat, >> >> Aggressive road positioning is taught to cyclists. Strictly speaking what's being taught is assertive road postioning. But I accept some people have trouble with the difference between asserive and aggressive. |
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Fri 26 Aug 11 13:32
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - sooty123
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>> >> Pat, >> >> >> >> Aggressive road positioning is taught to cyclists. >> >> Strictly speaking what's being taught is assertive road postioning. But I accept some people have >> trouble with the difference between asserive and aggressive. >> If someone on a bike came headlong at me, like pat described, I wouldn't call it assertive or aggressive but total stupidity. Last edited by: sooty123 on Fri 26 Aug 11 at 13:36
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Fri 26 Aug 11 14:52
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Bromptonaut
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>> If someone on a bike came headlong at me, like pat described, I wouldn't call >> it assertive or aggressive but total stupidity. I've explained up thread why in particular circumstances a cyclist might do this. It's counter intuitive because the natural reaction to a car coming at you is to get out of the way. But if the car driver hasn't seen you or is ignoring your presence you need to be more visible not less. Even at the road's edge you may be too close for a comfortable pass. Doesn't happen often but there's a particular lane local to me, once a link between villages but now a commuter rat run, where I need to deploy the technique from time to time. OTOH perhaps I'm just militant & aggressive (but I don't think those are words my friends or colleagues would use in any context whatsoever) Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Fri 26 Aug 11 at 14:52
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Fri 26 Aug 11 15:33
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - sooty123
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>> >> If someone on a bike came headlong at me, like pat described, I wouldn't >> call >> >> it assertive or aggressive but total stupidity. >> >> I've explained up thread why in particular circumstances a cyclist might do this. It's counter >> intuitive because the natural reaction to a car coming at you is to get out >> of the way. But if the car driver hasn't seen you or is ignoring your >> presence you need to be more visible not less. I saw what you wrote, still think it's very high risk and stupid. Putting your life in someone else's hands, might be a nutter or a flapper? It boils down to playing chicken with a car, when you've nothing more than your own body as a crumple zone. You want to do that, you crack on. |
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Sat 27 Aug 11 13:11
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Bromptonaut
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>> Putting your >> life in someone else's hands, might be a nutter or a flapper? It boils down >> to playing chicken with a car, when you've nothing more than your own body as >> a crumple zone. You want to do that, you crack on. My body is the crumple zone whatever. I accept that risk when I ride. Road positioning is used to reduce the risk. Most accidents happen because the cyclist was not seen, seen but forgotten or the closeness of a pass and it's risks not recognised. Using road position to increase visibility is more normally used to manage risks from behind. It works - close passes ar much worse if you play safe and keep out the way by the kerb. If you're riding out from the kerb you've got that metre or so as additional safety space. See Cyclecraft - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclecraft The same principle needs to be applied to oncoming traffic on narrow lanes. But I'm always ready to abort into the ditch if there is a nutter or flapper at the wheel. |
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Fri 26 Aug 11 15:21
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - NortonES2
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| What some car drivers choose to ignore is that cyclists are more vulnerable, and feel more vulnerable! Unless the cyclist in question was abnormally agressive (not unknown) I'd suggest he was responding to adrenalin, caused by fear! When I haven't maintained control of cars by positioning properly (Cyclecraft methods) careless drivers (a minority!) have passed within inches. Cutting across the bows or left-hooking as its called is another example. Apparently without malign motive, just that the bike is disregarded. Beneath the radar in the road pecking order. BTW, Sooty pda didn't describe the cyclists speed. Where did you get "headlong" from? |
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Fri 26 Aug 11 15:36
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - sooty123
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Where did you get "headlong" from? >> From pda's post. |
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Fri 26 Aug 11 17:13
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - NortonES2
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| pda didn't use the word "headlong". |
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Fri 26 Aug 11 17:18
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - sooty123
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| I know she didn't use that specific word but I did, from her description of what happened. |
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Fri 26 Aug 11 17:23
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Pat
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That was where you went wrong Sooty.........! Pat |
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Fri 26 Aug 11 17:27
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - sooty123
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| It wasn't going towards in the middle of the road? My apologies if I misunderstood. |
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Fri 26 Aug 11 17:43
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Pat
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No need for an apology Sooty, I know how it feels to be misunderstood:) Pat |
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Fri 26 Aug 11 17:50
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Iffy
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...I know how it feels to be misunderstood:)... Internet forums would be no fun at all if everyone understood each other. |
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Thu 25 Aug 11 21:08
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Bromptonaut
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Pat, If anything I posted 'put your word in question' I apologise. I'm simply suggesting that there might be another perspective to the single track incident. That the cyclist's witness statement might differ from yuors doesn't make either of you liars. Nobody's going to defend texting while cycling. I made/took several calls while shepherding my team on the London to Brighton - locating the slower ones, reeling in the racers and trying to get us back together. Even using numbers in my phone's handbook and with only other bikers for company it was hrd work. Rexting is just daft but I see two or three a day at it in London. As for a quick posted comment can result in a day long vindication of your actions. Part of me says 'only if you choose to', the other part says that's what the place is all about - discussion. I'd wager that if I posted some broad brush critical comments about 'them' lorry drivers you'd be holding me to account pretty quickly!! |
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Tue 20 Sep 11 09:40
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Bromptonaut
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More cycle contraflows coming in City of London tinyurl.com/6cnp37f (copy of public notice 40k pdf). I really don't like these at all. Running close into the kerb is high risk at any time, doing it contra flow even with decent markings is in the red zone on my risk measure. Furnival St is round the corner from work but I don't think I'll be rushing to use it contra-wise. A narrow road, mainly service access to offices etc including the Jewish Chron - which means it's high security too. Got a picture of another one up by Euston which illustrates the dangers pretty well. Just need to remeber to get it on photbucket and link. Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 20 Sep 11 at 09:41
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Tue 20 Sep 11 11:35
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - zippy
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These people seem to be playing politics with cyclist's and pedestrians lives. It is not a good idea to have contra flow cycle lanes and accidents will happen! |
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Wed 21 Sep 11 01:12
Cycles Lanes and One Way Streets - Cockle
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Came across a good one yesterday evening in Ipswich. Museum Street is restricted to buses only in one direction with a contra flow cycle lane in the other. Have no idea of any accident stats but buses in one direction and cycles in the other? Don't think I'd be overly comfortable with that one! |
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