Been keeping an eye on tyre prices cos me barmy daughter will need a new set fitting just before winter arrives
She had great results with Vredstein Quatrac 2's on her little 106, didn't put all seasons on the Civic she now has cos it was bought in winter and none available unless you were on footballers wages at the time.
She covers a lot of miles and doesn't hang about, so i want something good for her in wet and cold and ice grip too if poss.
I can get Uniroyal and Vredstein ordinary tyres at good prices, good stuff but not really winter designed.
Kumho Solus KH21, proper all season, snowflake marked so correct compound, but i haven't any experience with them, reviews seem mostly good on 'Tyretest', subject to sifting through.
£20 each more for Vred's Quatrac 3...should i go the extra or is the Kumho worth a punt, do i deserve a slap for even asking knowing Vred's will do the job?
She wants to pay for the tyres, but i'll let her pay for the cheapest normal tyre and make up the difference with a white lie...Priest will need two packed lunches at my confession.:-)
Thoughts please, i probably already know the answer but would appreciate your views.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Sat 16 Jul 11 at 13:08
|
In all the winter tyre tests here, and it's a bit of a national pastime every winter, the 'established' brands always come out better than the newer 'up and coming' brands.
So it's nearly always Nokian/GY/Pirelli/Conti etc, then Kuhmo/Hankook/Toyo etc. Of course the ching chang wongs are always at the bottom.
So I guess you have to decide where inthe rankings Vredestein come, as they don't seem to be available here. I would imagine they're in with the top boys, rather than the also rans.
|
>> every winter, the 'established' brands always come out better than the newer 'up and coming'
I sometimes wonder if there's a bit of batting for the established, but Hankooks Evo summer tyres score well, that scuppers my thought..;)
>> So it's nearly always Nokian/GY/Pirelli/Conti etc, then Kuhmo/Hankook/Toyo etc.
Since posting earlier i found a couple of winter comparisons that featured Kumho's winter tyres in the tests, but not the all season one i'm looking at, they didn't get too much praise.
The oddball Chinese offerings were never up for consideration.
>> So I guess you have to decide where inthe rankings Vredestein come, as they don't
>> seem to be available here.
I'm surprised they arn't available in your part of the world being made in Holland.
Where tested Vred's always do well overall, and my own experiences have been good, nay excellent especially with their winter/all seasons which stick like the proverbial in cold wet icy weather, and cope admirably with snow so well that i didn't need to use 4WD at all last winter on the pick up, except to exercise it.
I'm leaning to the Vred's again.
Thanks Dave, anyone else have any thoughts?
|
I had Hankooks on the Westfield and it was more or less impossible to unstick it in the dry and very controllable in the wet ( in a lairy sort of way ) Absolute hoot in the snow, it was like motorised sledging but there wasm't much to hit where we lived.
I suspect that car would have handled quite well just on the wheels without tyres mind.
:-)
Last edited by: Humph D'Bout on Sat 16 Jul 11 at 16:23
|
>> I suspect that car would have handled quite well just on the wheels without tyres
>> mind.
It's the hoot in the snow i don't want nor lairy wet weather antics, have you ever tried to tell a headstrong young woman anything, can't be done, too much like her mother.
I'd like her to learn a RWD car, but the problem is she won't go down in power and a 3 series 6 pot Beemer isn't a machine to learn on.
What happened to the Westie by the way?..;
|
.>> What happened to the Westie by the way?..;
Couldn't get a pushchair in it :-(
|
>> .>> What happened to the Westie by the way?..;
>>
>> Couldn't get a pushchair in it :-(
Should've gone for someone your own age. ;>)
|
>> She wants to pay for the tyres, but i'll let her pay for the cheapest
>> normal tyre and make up the difference with a white lie..
Top bloke, GB. Hope that your daughter realises what sort of dad she's got (I suspect that she does).
I'd like to know a bit about these all season tyres from forummers with actual experience of them. Seriously considering them as replacements when next due.
|
>> what sort of dad she's got.....stuck with?
Definately not L, i believe the kids should stand on their own two feet, though the cost of good boots is pretty eye watering now.
She's learning mind, i swapped her tyres front/back couple of weeks ago to even up the wear, now wearing the Uniroyals on the back for the summer, straight away she's finding wheelspin the Uni's wouldn't allow.
I would get those Uniroyal Rain Experts again, they've done well, but i have a feeling we are in for another proper winter and she does a lot of miles on work contracts, early morning long drives, ice...
The Vred Quatrac 2's as fitted to her little 106 covered over 40K well thrashed miles, she still misses the sure footed handling of the 106 compared to her Civic 2.0S in all weathers, i'm not sure just how much of that was the chassis and how much the tyres.
|
GB I posted this back in Jan...
I don't know if our decision on the issue is of interest. Wanted a set of 4 winter tyres for Mrs F's Citroen and decided on these...
www.klebertyres.co.uk/KleberUK/front/affich.jsp?&lang=EN&codeRubrique=30032005121111
They are an all-season tyre so the balance is a little less all out winter tyre but importantly they have the snowflake marking to indicate they pass standards required in Europe where winter tyres are law.
I was staggered by their ability on the last lot of snow and ice... more important they are behaving little different to the summer tyres we took off. They're not noisy, the ride is the same, they grip well in the rain and on dry roads.
Best of all for us it saves having a second set of wheels to store.
6mths on they are doing exactly the same job as normal summer tyres with no negative issues... and we know as soon as the first cold weather arrives this year the car is ready equipped.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Sat 16 Jul 11 at 16:58
|
>> I don't know if our decision on the issue is of interest. Wanted a set
>> of 4 winter tyres for Mrs F's Citroen and decided on these...
That's handy FL i didn't know they were winter rated, thanks for the summary....how are they wearing by the way?
|
Thanks for the link, Fenlander.
I checked it out and started to get very interested - but then discovered that they only stock "normal" tyres in my car's size. (225/50 R17).
Blast!
|
(225/50 R17).
>> Blast!
Blast indeed L, eye wateringly expensive tyre size...is there an alternative sizing for the same rim or is that it.
|
>> Blast indeed L, eye wateringly expensive tyre size...is there an alternative sizing for the same rim or is that it.
>>
I think that is it, GB. I'll have to check with the dealer's workshop to be sure.
You are right though. It is an expensive size. I never even thought about it when I bought the car. There are so many other variables to consider - Price, Insurance, Road Tax etc.
I can understand the 19 & 20 inch tyres being dear, but I assumed that the standard 17 inch tyres would be reasonable.
|
>> I think that is it, GB. I'll have to check with the dealer's workshop to be sure.
If it were a 215/50/17 then the alternative equivalent would be 225/45/17.
I saved myself some money buying tyres for my Vectra-C as the 215/50 isn't as common a size as the 225/45 is.
|
|
Had you seen that you can get Goodyear Vector 4 Season "All Season" tyres with the "Snowflake" symbol from MyTyres at £154.10p delivered and fitted?
|
|
Just noticed it has the "M&S" symbol on it too.
|
|
Not just any tyres then? These are M&S tyres...
Last edited by: Humph D'Bout on Sat 16 Jul 11 at 22:45
|
>> Not just any tyres then? These are M&S tyres...
>>
Just don't get confused with S&M rubber.......
|
Great tip - thanks kb.
Looked up a few favourable reviews on these tyres.
I've added this to my notes. Only done 4500 miles on these tyres, but when the time comes I shall be seriously considering these.
|
Re Kleber Quadraxer all-season tyre life.
TBH I don't really worry about tyre life but as so many folks said winter/all-season would wear like cheese I noted the tread depth/mileage at fitting.
Just checked them and 1mm worn from fronts in 8,444mls. Rears have lost just under 1mm. So starting at 8mm and changing at 4mm (for winter safety) gives a life of 33,000mls plus... over 50,000 if you were willing to take them down to 2mm. That's plenty good enough for me.
BTW they are on an obviously lightweight but hard driven C3.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Sat 16 Jul 11 at 23:35
|
>> Just checked them and 1mm worn from fronts in 8,444mls. Rears have lost just under
>> 1mm.
Thanks, we found similar good wear in the Vred all seasons, my daughter used them all year round too.
|
Missus needs new tyres for her Beetle and was thinking of the all weather types.
Been quoted £86.40 each for the Quadraxers for a 205/55/R16 tyre, supplier is unable to source the Quatrac3.
How much did you pay for your C3's?
I realise that these are best suited for low temps but when I actually thought things out, we live in Scotland, she is a nurse and either starts work at 7 am or finishes work at 10pm depending on her shifts. This means that probably, realistically, at least 50% of her journeys will be done at lowish temperatures!
|
|
You're welcome....but remember not to try to buy Winter Tyres (or, possibly, All Season's) in the winter. There would seem to be choice at present on MyTyres and I was told that other suppliers such as Camskill and the usual online favourites would start to stock them late summer. I went for seperate steelies and winters (215/60/16) and paid £107 a piece for the Dunlop Winter Sport M3's, fitted, with the wheels about forty odd pounds a go. The Dunlop Vectors would have been an option but at the time didn't realise there were Snowflake / M&S All Seasons available. I'm happy enough though to have fully specced winters on steel wheel throughout the winter months though and will store the alloys in the garage, safe from the salt. Have waxed them, (as per another thread) to try to keep them presentable.
|
Update.
Ordered 4 Vred Quatrac 3 (V rated) from Camskills on Sunday, from recent experience i wasn't convinced they'd be able to supply my first choice, would probably have tried the Kleber's if not available, decided against the Kumho's following the none too good scoring of their full winter tyres in tests.
£70 apiece...don't spit too many bulletts L...:-) they'll probably be £55 in a weeks time and i'll be hopping!
Just been delivered via a very cheery fellow.
Many thanks for the input, i'll be a bit happier now this coming winter when they're on.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Wed 20 Jul 11 at 11:25
|
You'll be the only driver able to get to work in the bad weather - new employers will be impressed.
I've probably asked this before, but what's an artic like with snow on the ground?
Edit: Just realised, tyres are for the daughter, but as the thread's concluded, the artic question still stands.
Last edited by: Iffy on Wed 20 Jul 11 at 11:47
|
but as the thread's concluded, the artic
>> question still stands.
Like cars they vary a lot, from reasonably competent to useless.
Automated manuals as in cars are not much use when you need fine control, a good manual usually makes better progress, not least to get a rocking motion back and forth before going for it to get rolling, automated manual boxes simply are not up to such swift fine control, and in many cases (latest Scania and Volvo excepted) the clutch engagement is too fierce.
One memorable day last year an automated manual overheated and i had to let it cool for an hour before it would work again when i got stuck for 15 minutes on half an inch of flat road snow, i asked the box to do some work and it simply couldn't cope, the follwing saturday i was in 6 to 8" of the stuff in a manual MB Axor and it just laughed at the snow, never faltered..
Longer 3 axle tractors are often but not always better, some designs have engine/transmission set slightly further back than others which gives better drive axle loading in empty running.
Remember in the majority of designs you're pushing 5 axles with only one driven, so you need to get as much weight as possible onto that drive axle, not always possible.
The MB Axor (noted above) tag axle fitment the driver has complete control over, able to fully raise whatever the load, this helps a lot, some other designs the driver has almsot no input into the tag axle position....same with the trailer, some you can manually raise the front axle which again imposes more load onto the drive axle.
In all cases the driver's choice is being taken away from such things as new designs emerge, particularly in UK spec.
If you can keep them going artics can make good progress, it's once you stop that it all goes pear shaped, especially if the warm tyres start to melt the packed snow, a competent gearbox with a competent driver usually fares best.
My opinon only obviously.
And by the way, it's almost unheard of to fit winter tyres to the drive axles, i wonder if that will change as global climate warming brings proper winters back..;)
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Wed 20 Jul 11 at 12:23
|
There's no requirement here for winter tyres for anything over 3.5 tons. In fact, I'm not sure if there is such a thing even exists. But the min tread depth for 3.5t+ is 5mm.
It's very rare to see any trucks or buses stuck or in the ditch. The main problem seems to be big hills, where they lose speed or have to stop, and then it all goes pear shaped. East eurpean trucks seem to be especially prone. There's a serious hill, complete with a bend, on the way out of Jönköping. It got so bad with trucks getting stuck on the bend, just as the grade increased even more, that they now heat the road during the winter. There can't be many heated roads in the world.
|
>> There's no requirement here for winter tyres for anything over 3.5 tons. In fact, I'm
>> not sure if there is such a thing even exists. But the min tread depth
>> for 3.5t+ is 5mm.
>>
By "here" do you mean the UK?
Tread depth for 3.5 tons+ is only 1mm in UK.
|
Nah, Sweden.
Winter tyres (or min 5mm on trucks/buses) mandatory between 1st Dec and 31st march, but only when there is ice, snow or slush on the road surface. Studded tyres only allowed from 1st nov till end of april, unless going for an MOT, in which case none of the tyre rules apply.
|
Quick anecdotal update now that Bobby's asked FL a question.
I had swapped the now down to 4mm Uniroyals from the front to the rear and put the deeper treaded also rans to the front, this was to even the wear out for the rest of the summer, i thought they'd be ok till October like that.
I swapped them back last weekend, the also rans would wheelspin anywhere anytime, should have been called Martini Arrowspeeds.
The changeover will just have to be brought forward once the vastly superior Uni's reach 3mm.
|
>> I swapped them back last weekend, the also rans would wheelspin anywhere anytime, should have
>> been called Martini Arrowspeeds.
>>
You're supposed to have the least grippy tyres on the front.
|
Pffffffffftttttttt
I am having new uniroyals fitted to the front on Tuesday, you want all the grip you can on the driven wheels.
|
>> I am having new uniroyals fitted to the front on Tuesday, you want all the
>> grip you can on the driven wheels.
>>
You don't actually. And gb certainly doesn't on his daughter's car.
|
Isn't it a case of do you prefer to go through the hedge forwards, or backwards?
I'm with Zeddo and prefer to go through it backwards, that way you can't see what kills you. ;>)
|
>> Isn't it a case of do you prefer to go through the hedge forwards, or
>> backwards?
>>
>> I'm with Zeddo and prefer to go through it backwards, that way you can't see
>> what kills you. ;>)
i prefer the bits that steer to grip, call me funny that way.
|
|
I prefer the bits I can't steer to not let go first.
|
>>i prefer the bits that steer to grip, call me funny that way.
But, all 4 wheels steer the car.
Yes, the front ones turn relative to the body, but all 4 wheels need to produce sideforce to allow you to corner.
At any reasonable speed, the steer angle is tiny, and so to think of the front wheels as THE ONES doing the steering is missing the big picture.
As to which end of the car hits the scenery first, I would prefer it to be in the direction where the crumple zones have been designed, where the airbags will rigger correctly, etc, etc.
Don't forget that to be in the situation where you're heading backwards into the scenery, you had to be going sideways for a while - running the risk of rollover - which becomes an extremely serious accident.
|
Far too pessimistic. Lets say you're on a wet roundabout in your FWD going far too fast for the conditions with dodgy rear tyres and good fronts. The back end steps out, you adjust your steering to point where you want to go, squeeze on the accelerator. Job done.
There is no simple recovery on tight-ish british roads with an understeery lump. You need to wind off steering - so aim for the scenery, and brake up to the threshold as the armco comes through the windscreen a-la Robert Kubica style.
Know which one i'd prefer.
|
You are Colin MacCrae AICMFP.
Or you're trying to justify why you don't have a Real Wheel Drive car ;-)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5YsQ_a_ijA
Granted this is an extreme example of tyre discrepancies and waterlogging.
I think the bottom line is don't drive like a weapon in wet conditions with tread <3mm on any corner.
|
>> www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5YsQ_a_ijA
>>
Interesting video, and there's quite a lot saying the same thing.
What's missing though is confirmation that the new tyres are of the same type as the worn, that's a common theme, indeed the tread depths of the worn tyres actually tested isn't stated either.
Secondly i haven't seen any footage of the difference in wet braking from the new front/rear argument.
Just wondering here, put new tyres on front and brake hard, now if i recall it's around 75% of braking is done by the fronts, so if you have baldies on the fronts and new on the rear wouldn't your wet braking distance be increased.
As that particular test result seems hard to find, i wonder why, here's an interesting budget versus premium test by Continental (it's obviously going to put them in a good light so make allowances) that highlights the wet braking or lack of, they probably chose this particular budget as it's plainly copied their existing pattern very closely, any guesses what make the test budget tyre is?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2c9Ry0JfMw&feature=related
Going back to the VBH video and others telling users to put new on the rear regardless of front or RWD, to highlight just how dangerous the new on the front is they allow the car to spin out by not correcting the lack of traction once felt, they don't however show what happens when the new are fitted to the rear and the driver allows the resulting skid to develop, very easy to skew the results anyway, in most FWD's at the point of losing contact simply lifting of the throttle could produce the oversteer and very easy to exacerbate it for dramatic effect.
In all instances except for the Continental test which is testing new only, details of the types and the tread depths of the used test tyres isn't given.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Sat 27 Aug 11 at 12:36
|
Bah! I draw the assembled jury's attention to 2:37 in the video, and the provocative steering angle.
Furthermore, she can be seen compensating for the understeer with corrective steering adjustment but applied no compensation for the oversteer scenario.
She eased off in the understeer situation but didn't ease on in the oversteer.
I call mis-trial, this is sham, a show trial, an afront to FWD.
:-)
Thinking about it though, the point about RWD, not sure i'd put old rubber on the rear of a RWD.
|
Skoda said: "The back end steps out, you adjust your steering to point where you want to go, squeeze on the accelerator. Job done."
then he said: "She eased off in the understeer situation but didn't ease on in the oversteer.
I call mis-trial"
So what is it? Bootful of revs, or ease off?
What the test is set up to demonstrate is really the point at which aquaplaning occurs, rather than dynamic wet grip. Once the rears are aquaplaning the game is over unless you can bring the speed down and cut the sideways forces on the rear wheels (ie. 'straighten' the direction of motion - hard to do when the car is already going sideways).
If the car is understeering, then there is no increasing sideways motion on the front tyres as the tendency is to plough forwards - aquaplaning stops once the car slows down to a suitable speed.
Whatever anyone says - understeer from aquaplane is easier to recover than oversteer from aquaplane.
The point about stopping in a straight line is, IMO, likely to be a valid one although I don't have a video to back this up: better tyres on front are likely to stop faster in a straight line than better tyres on rear - know your stopping distances helps ;-) - the downside is an emergency stop with rubbish rear tyres may end in tears if the car isn't perfectly straight as any 'wagging' of the tail may induce hedge-finding rear-end oversteer as above.
As I say - try not to have crap tyres on any corner!
|
>> So what is it? Bootful of revs, or ease off?
Understeer = ease off, if it gets really out of shape unwind steering
Oversteer = ease on, if it gets really out of shape counter steer (i.e. point where you want to go)
Joking aside, the video was a setup. Not conducted fairly.
|
>> Understeer = ease off, if it gets really out of shape unwind steering
>> Oversteer = ease on, if it gets really out of shape counter steer (i.e. point
>> where you want to go)
That applies to most FWD's but variations apply especially in the case of oversteer if you have RWD.
>> Joking aside, the video was a setup. Not conducted fairly.
I agree, these types of things are staged to produce the desired result, it works too as many people swallow it hook line and sinker. As with many things i think you have to read between the lines, if they don't state the condition of the worn tyres there's a good reason for it, the important bit is often what isn't stated, as with adverts and politicians rhetoric.
I don't disagree with any of our posters regarding good tyres, i imagine most of us here take our vehicles and their care far more seriously than the vast majority of car users, many of whom probably still use the low oil pressure warning lamp as a dipstick.
I do however disagree with the one size fits all mantra, it doesn't fit in all circumstances for all drivers of all types of car, and some of us just might have enough common and practical knowledge to make sensible informed decisions.
|
>> Far too pessimistic. Lets say you're on a wet roundabout in your FWD going far
>> too fast for the conditions with dodgy rear tyres and good fronts. The back end
>> steps out, you adjust your steering to point where you want to go, squeeze on
>> the accelerator. Job done.
>>
The thing is, you're a driving God. GB's daughter probably isn't, so when you put tyres on a car that someone else will be driving, you really ought to go with the widely accepted position that the most grippy tyres should go on the back.
In the situation you describe, I would guess 95% of drivers would spin the car. They may or may not hit something, or be hit.
The more likely situation that arises with less grippy tyres on the back is going around a bend at some speed and the back-end just lets go very suddenly. No realistic chance of anybody catching it at speed on a public road.
The theory is that you'd be aware earlier of a lack of grip on the fronts and so would back off.
|
>> I would guess 95% of drivers would spin the car
Yeah i'm sure you're right. The idea i was getting at is there's a chance of recovery in oversteer. At the same speed there is no chance in understeer, even if you're not a passenger, you're still in the scenery on british roads, there just isn't the run off room.
|
>> >> I would guess 95% of drivers would spin the car
>>
>> Yeah i'm sure you're right. The idea i was getting at is there's a chance
>> of recovery in oversteer.
In reality, if the oversteer goes beyond about a small slip, there is no recovery room either.
I think that the skills required to correct an oversteer situation are often grossly underestimated. An oversteer situation which is provoked and anticipated differs significantly from a sudden event. Even among the superhumans on here, I don't think many will have the skills or reactions to catch an unexpected oversteer skid.
I think any talk of recovering unexpected oversteer - especially foran average driver - is far too optimistic.
I missed one awful scenario in the which end meets the scenery point - side impact. There's very little crumple zone, and it's very easy for side impacts to kill.
So, understeer effectively avoids the possibilities of roll and reduces the possibility of side impact - both serious complications to an accident.
|
Again, the point is not so much about 'normal' oversteer where there is still tyre contact with the road surface - it's about inducing oversteer through aquaplaning.
The video is obviously overcooked to a degree, but if one is consciously driving at a speed where you are ready to correct for a loss of the tail end you maybe should slow down.
The biggest adjustable factor in aquaplaning is the tyre speed (and not having soft tyres)
There is virtually no plan-B if that happens until the road speed reduces to the point that contact between rubber and the road becomes significant again.
As N_C says - head-on is better than side-on...
|
>> As N_C says - head-on is better than side-on...
I'm sorry, I prefer neither. And I still say I have more chance of preventing either with more grip up front. In general driving traction and braking its what required. And having both up front will get you into less situations in the first place.
|
>> In general driving traction and braking its what required.
In a straight line? Absolutely.
In a bend? Lateral grip and not aquaplaning are what are required - braking/traction count for naught as you slide sideways.
|
|
if you have traction you are less likely to slide sideways. The front pulling the back tends to keep it tidy. If you have traction pulling the front, the backs going nowhere it aint supposed to.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 28 Aug 11 at 09:14
|
>>the backs going nowhere it aint supposed to
Unless you lift of in a bend (the usual inexperience hot-hatch driver 'fail'), or the rear tyres are so inadequate they cant supply enough lateral grip, or aquaplane.
In a straight line it's a moot point but in bends/avoidance manoeuvres the rear wheels do a lot more than simply roll along.
|
I don't get this aquaplaning lark.
I doubt Z would be running tyres down to anywhere near the bare minimum, i know non of my family's cars would be so ill equipped.
Unless the car was on such a tight turn that the rear tyres were making their own 'track', then they will be following the path cleared by the fronts, so wouldn't need as much tread to clear standing water.
If they were on such a tight turn as to be in their own track, then the speed would be so low that aquaplaning would be nigh on impossible unless you were running huge Carlos Fandago's that were completely bald.
In the case in question, my daughters car Civic 2.0S on 195/65 x 15's, the now on the front again tyres are Uniroyal Rain Experts @ 4mm tread, the now back on the rear are Accelera Alpha or similar @ 5+mm.
They are not ditchfinders as far as i'm aware, but blindingly obvious is the fact they do not have the wet weather sure footedness of the Uniroyals, being much easier to provoke wheelspin, which to my mind equates to less capable braking too if fitted at the front end where the heaviest braking happens.
I had swapped them round a few months ago in the vain hope that they would all be down to about 3mm or just over by the time the cold weather arrived, i hadn't expected there to be such a difference given they have deeper tread than the Uni's.
As it is the Uniroyals feel more sure footed where they are, so as they will wear down far quicker on the front, the changeover to the Vred all seasons will just have to brought forward a month or so once the Uni's reach 3mm, or the cold arrives whichever is sooner.
The Accelera's will simply be scrapped with probably 5mm still remaining.
|
>> I don't get this aquaplaning lark.
>>
>> I doubt Z would be running tyres down to anywhere near the bare minimum, i
>> know non of my family's cars would be so ill equipped.
The fronts, going on the back, have about 4mm. The backs have 4mm on one side and shoulders worn down to 1.5mm. I think they came off the front some 25k ago. So the bloke who had the car before me has put his best tyres on the front as well.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 28 Aug 11 at 12:23
|
>> if you have traction you are less likely to slide sideways. The front pulling the
>> back tends to keep it tidy. If you have traction pulling the front, the backs
>> going nowhere it aint supposed to.
>>
Seriously - you're really misunderstanding what's going on.
In a bend, the rear tyres are not just rolling along doing nothing. The whole car is trying to slide sideway - both front and rear tyres are equally important for stopping that. It's demonstrably worse to have an imbalance of grip
I've done skidpan stuff as part of driver training at work. As a reference point, I think I'm a good, instinctive, driver. Correcting rear-wheel skids was extremely difficult and, or couse, on a skidpan you're not bothered contrained to a certain width of road and there's no kerbs or oncoming traffic to worry about.
As a younger driver, I've had big rear end skids on the road - once ended up a field (you really can't do anything once the car is on the grass verge) and the other time I did recover to a straight line, but unfortunately the second part of an S bend was in play so I buried my brand-new Capri into a grass embankment!
|
I guess the other thing is with the fresh tyres where the weight is in a fwd, you're less likely to get into a skid in the first place. Given equal amounts of provocation, there are situations where the understeering lump will be in the scenery but the oversteering car will go round without a hiccup.
There is potentially less lateral load at the rear of the FF layout car. Polar moment of inertia i think is the password to unlock NCs wisdom on this.
|
>> >> if you have traction you are less likely to slide sideways. The front pulling
>> the
>> >> back tends to keep it tidy. If you have traction pulling the front, the
>> backs
>> >> going nowhere it aint supposed to.
>> >>
>>
>> Seriously - you're really misunderstanding what's going on.
Seriously, I'm not. What do you think lift off oversteer is?
have you ever corrected a sliding rear by booting power through the front wheels?
>> for stopping that. It's demonstrably worse to have an imbalance of grip
Its not
>> I've done skidpan stuff as part of driver training at work.
So have I, the cars are not set up with an inbalance of grip so that cant be used as an example.
>> As a reference point,
>> I think I'm a good, instinctive, driver. Correcting rear-wheel skids was extremely difficult and
Its not, really, specially not on a skid pan.
>> couse, on a skidpan you're not bothered contrained to a certain width of road and
>> there's no kerbs or oncoming traffic to worry about.
Applies to both, Oversteer and understeer require more room than you normally have.
>>
>> Capri into a grass embankment!
I did all my early driving in Capris, 6 years of it. Funnily enough my first front front wheel drive car I dumped into a pond. We are not talking RWD tho we are talking FWD.
Based on all that, my good tyres are going on the front because thats where I want the grip.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 28 Aug 11 at 12:24
|
Missed the edit,
for the record my daughter doesn't take bends at high speed, i do sometimes and my tyre requirements reflect this.
Secondly, it's most unusual for me to be buying 2 tyres for any of our family, i always run them out together by rotation if possible and buy four matching tyres of the best wet grippers i can get for summer use, and the best cold wet ice grippers for winter use.
The car i run doesn't have any from of traction control at all apart from ABS, it does provide very fine 'feel' feedback through the wheel and the seat of your pants as to what's happening at the road surface, as the car doesn't interfere in any way.
As it's RWD and i know how it will behave on the road, if i was to put 2 new tyres on of equivalent or better grip than the remaining two they would be fitted to the rear, at the driven wheels.
Not because of biased video's or a one size fits all regardless of all else mantra, but because i know where and how my car will lose traction first, and i drive according to the prevailing conditions.
|
>>Secondly, it's most unusual for me to be buying 2 tyres for any of our family, i always run them out together by rotation if possible and buy four matching tyres of the best wet grippers i can get for summer use, and the best cold wet ice grippers for winter use.
GB, on my FWD cars I can maybe get 15-20k out my fronts, but 60k out my backs. Is it the opposite way round for RWD cars?
|
>> GB, on my FWD cars I can maybe get 15-20k out my fronts, but 60k
>> out my backs. Is it the opposite way round for RWD cars?
>>
Blimey just got back from work and there's some serious posting been going on:-)
Bobby i really couldn't tell you what the difference is between the fronts and rears in pure miles terms, but they do wear differently.
The fronts tend to get shoulder wear, i'd like to blame the state of the roads or the car's geometry but i must be quite honest and own up that my driving does take it's toll of the front tyre edges.
The rears wear flat, and i'm of the opinion that they wear slightly quicker but not the huge difference in wear rates that FWD produces, that's not through wheelspin which i detest hearing or have happen to me as it's poor driving IMO (and one of the many reasons i dislike FWD so much), but i do use the power frequently.
I tend to swap front and rear of the same side when they go back on depending on time of year and which set is being used.
I don't mark them up, i judge each tyre on it's merits at the time, if it's showing shoulder wear it will go on the back for the season, and vice versa.
Can't fully rotate as i usually end up with directional tyres.
I assume you never rotate your tyres Bobby, be careful how you answer this you might be put in the corner with the pointy hat like some of us, no not the kkk one.;)... i wonder how you know that your rears get around 60k, do you go through 3 sets of fronts...ooh you are awful but i like you..:-)
|
GB, my car has done 56k miles, have replaced fronts twice but pretty sure the rears are the originals still thus my calculation! You are right, I don't rotate!
Pretty much from an economics point of view, I would prefer to only need to find the cash for two at a time rather than 4! Although I have started a "car fund" now so might make sense to go for changing all 4 if you get a better deal doing that.
Car is an Altea 20tdi and it definitely is very heavy at the front and I guesss that helps wear them down! Maybe spending 2 winters doing power slides and handbrake turns in a snow covered Lidl car park doesn't help either....... :)
|
>> GB, my car has done 56k miles, have replaced fronts twice but pretty sure the
>> rears are the originals still thus my calculation! You are right, I don't rotate!
>>
Oh dear wrong answer, come and join Z, H, S, possibly Tom but he's a rum 'un who owns the worlds biggest spoon, he probably runs cross plies on the Pride, and meself in the naughty boys corner.
Good stock of pointy hats here, D or KKK optional via felt pen..:-)
glad to see you're a loyal Lidl's customer, even when they're closed.
Tremendous difference in mileages though, just shows how little the rear tyres do on a FWD...
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Mon 29 Aug 11 at 11:24
|
>> Tremendous difference in mileages though, just shows how little the rear tyres do on a
>> FWD...
>>
.... and how (too) much the front tyres on FWD do.....
|
>> .... and how (too) much the front tyres on FWD do.....
>>
For you also ze var iss ovah...name??...:-)...don't tell 'em ST....oops, join us in the corner.
|
|
Wouldnt want to put your best tyres where they work hardest then would you! ;)
|
>>Tom but he's a rum 'un who owns the worlds biggest spoon, he probably runs cross plies on the Pride
OI!
It's on radials. I know that because I've just been out to have a look. ;>)
|
>> Seriously, I'm not. What do you think lift off oversteer is?
>>
It's something that is made more likely to happen by having rear tyres that are poorer than the fronts.
>> have you ever corrected a sliding rear by booting power through the front wheels?
>>
Only on icy car-parks, which isn't really the real world. Most cars these days have traction contol which will stop you booting it anyway if it thinks something's up. As full ASR/ESP or whatever comes in these incidents will become rare anyway. Interesting that MB say their anti-skid is so good you might as well put new tyres on the front. Caused Costco's tyre fitters to nearly explode when I showed them.
>> >> It's demonstrably worse to have an imbalance of grip
>>
>> Its not
>>
It is. At steady speeds a car will spin out later on 4 worn tyres than on 2 good fronts and 2 poor rears. There's a good video of this from one of the motoring programmes.
Obviously, you can do as you please. And we're not talking about those moments where you deliberately provoke certain things - they're usually easy to deal with.
But you must have seen the sort of single vehicle accident where a car inexepicably went off the road on a bend. They're common on the rural A roads around here. Losing the back-end at 60 or so MPH is likely to be sudden and irrecoverable. If the front starts to wash out you generally get plenty of notice, the driver backs off and regains control.
|
So far, in this thread, the only sensible argument for better rubber on the front is GB's braking distance qustion. That's the one that's worthy of more thought.
It's clear that BP's skid pan training has allowed him to see the nature of the problem - I agree with his analysis.
As for polar moments of inertia, it's very easy to get carried away with them, but one point I will make about them is that with a FWD car, where the weight is concentrated towards the front, it makes the yaw that results from a loss of rear axle grip happen extremely quickly.
|
Its all very well to tell the story of the theory, but frankly you have lost touch with the real world. I have had skid pan training and can see the nature of the problem.
I shall stick my best tyres on the front, and further I shall do it happily based on experience, not the theory.
|
Well now, if this thread proves nothing else to me it singularly shouts that the answer isn't black and white and certainly isn't entirely supportable by formulae.
I can comment only by my own findings. These are not achieved on paper but are wholly based on my own personal experience. For what little it's worth I'm up to 1.2m miles of motoring so far. 40 odd cars, three continents and all weathers. Front wheel drive, rear wheel drive, 4x4s, ABS equipped and not. Traction controls and none. Radial tyres and crossply remoulds included. Oh and no accidents so far thank goodness.
Bottom line is, I'd far rather have reliable grip at the front although both ends are even better of course. Understeer is horrible. Especially when wishing to turn or bear left in the UK. Oversteer is sometimes a surprise but is mostly entirely controllable. Strikes me that once again we are being invited to favour the needs of the lowest common ability denominator rather than encourage those without the appropriate experience and or knowledge to gain it.
Dumbing down I think they call it.
Anyway, we've been here before. No one ever wins these debates. The same old arguments pop up from the same old sources. Carry on I say. Do what you think is best. I'll do the same...
|
>>Its all very well to tell the story of the theory, but frankly you have lost touch with the real world.
>>I shall do it happily based on experience, not the theory.
>>certainly isn't entirely supportable by formulae.
>>These are not achieved on paper
Ignorance disguised by the usual bluster.
|
>> Ignorance disguised by the usual bluster.
#
Theory unhindered by experience. Those who can do, those who cant teach. ;)
|
>>Theory unhindered by experience
Believe that nonsense if you like Z.
|
|
I shall do more than believe it, I am putting my money where my mouth is.
|
Sure of course I forgot. I'm ignorant. We lesser beings sometimes don't realise we're inferior you know. Please make allowances. Sometimes we even forget to crash despite the inevitability of it .
|
You seem not to understand what aquaplaning is Zero, and are unwilling to understand it, so carry on.
Massive difference between oversteer due to aquaplaning at the rear, and oversteer due to pushing too much power through the rear wheels/losing traction without aquaplaning.
The fact that it is harder to make a FWD car step out at the rear than a RWD car doesn't diminish the result when it does.
It's obviously a rare occurence as otherwise the roads would be littered with backwards-thru-hedges FWD cars when it rains, but so's Motor Neurone Disease and I'd prefer to mitigate either of these things from happening.
Unfortunately for MND there's no 'new tyres on the back' to be had.
For a car driven sensibly it's not really an issue but if the car is being driven on/over the edge of it's capability, or it has to respond to dramatic changes in steering input/standing water it may be the difference between continuing oblivious to the physics at play, and having a disaster.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Sun 28 Aug 11 at 21:46
|
Here's why I react badly to the theoretician jibes;
If we were talking about the existence of gravitational waves, which exist theoretically, but, have never been measured, then, some degree of scepticism about how theory relates to real life is acceptable, healthy even. But, the dynamics of motor cars is extremely well understood.
For the first 40 years, or so, of its existence, the dynamics of the motor car was very poorly understood, and it is the work done by engineers in the mid 20th century which have absolutely transformed the driving behaviour of cars - using THEORY.
There's no disconnect between theory and reality in the case of the dynamics of the vehicle itself.
The difficulty in vehicle dynamics work is how to deal with the drivers' inputs. How to model the driver. If engineers chose to base their models on the superhuman drivers who seem to inhabit car forums, how would a person with merely normal skills cope? A car developed using a driver model of M Schumacher as an input to the dynamic model, I suggest, might not be safe for the vast majority of people.
Looking at the other side of the coin which the theory deniers usually put forward is experience. What experience is required to be able to express an opinion on the subject? Is it measured in years?, or in miles?, in miles travelled sideways?, in number of skids? in number of accidents?, hospital admissions? plaster casts?
The error made by theory deniers is always to assume that someone who knows some theory can't possibly have any experience. It suggests a certain lack of imagination on the behalf of the theory deniers.
As for GB Shaw's ill considered jibe (the true long term root cause of our riots perhaps?), yes, there are some people who teach who have never known life outside education - it shows, and the students can spot it a mile away! Thankfully, I'm not in that awkward and embarassing position.
As an aside, Did GB Shaw say anything of worth?
|
" What experience is required to be able to express an opinion on the subject? Is it measured in years?, or in miles?, in miles travelled sideways?, in number of skids? in number of accidents?, hospital admissions? plaster casts?"
Yes - all of those are useful. The problem with theorists is they speak holly utterances that must not be challenged in the face of actual experience. The world is littered with engineering disaster that shouldn't have happened in theory.
|
>>The world is littered with engineering disaster that shouldn't have happened in theory.
Really?
Name one?
|
The Tacoma Narrows bridge
The hyatt regency walkway collapse
DC10 cargo doors
A certain rig in the gulf of mexico.
The comet
Liberty ships.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 28 Aug 11 at 22:27
|
Which part of "name one" was difficult?
;)
- pick any one of them, and let's talk about your point about theory.
Last edited by: Number_Cruncher on Sun 28 Aug 11 at 22:29
|
>> Which part of "name one" was difficult?
>>
>> ;)
>>
>> - pick any one of them, and let's talk about your point about theory.
Multiple choice.
Ok tacoma narrows. What bright engineer ignored the aerodynamics then?
|
>>Ok tacoma narrows.
Right, so, where did the failure which happened violate theory?
Tacoma Narrows did go beyond the engineer's knowledge at the time it was designed and built, but, no laws of physics were broken, no theory was negated during its collapse.
|
>> >>Ok tacoma narrows.
>>
>> Right, so, where did the failure which happened violate theory?
>>
>> Tacoma Narrows did go beyond the engineer's knowledge at the time it was designed and
>> built
Not true, Bernoulli published the basic principals in 1738. It was an external factor that was not taken into account.
>>but, no laws of physics were broken, no theory was negated during its collapse.
So in theory its still standing. Nope. Its a classic case of where theory did not stack up to reality.
|
>>Bernoulli published the basic principals in 1738
Really? What exactly do you mean? How does it relate to the failure?
>>It was an external factor that was not taken into account.
What factor was this?
Of course the bridge isn't still standing.
>>Its a classic case of where theory did not stack up to reality.
No, there's no violation theory at all.
Yes, a design was built, and there was a possible mode of failure which wasn't included in the design criteria and standards. The design criteria and standards AREN'T theory, they are simply a guide.
Phrased another way - engineering design guidelines might have changed following Tacoma Narrows, but, no textbooks on aerodynamic theory or vibration were re-written - i.e., the theory stands (even though the bridge doesn't!)
Last edited by: Number_Cruncher on Sun 28 Aug 11 at 22:54
|
>> >>Bernoulli published the basic principals in 1738
>>
>> Really? What exactly do you mean? How does it relate to the failure?
Due to the shape of the deck, differential pressures were induced (increase flow low pressure, decrease flow high pressure ala Bernoulli) causing structural deformity, which then resulted in flutter reaching the natural frequency of the structure.
>>
>> >>It was an external factor that was not taken into account.
>>
>> What factor was this?
The one above!
>> Phrased another way - engineering design guidelines might have changed following Tacoma Narrows, but, no
>> textbooks on aerodynamic theory or vibration were re-written - i.e., the theory stands (even though
>> the bridge doesn't!)
Which theory? The ones that were included or the one that was omitted?
|
>>which then resulted in flutter
Right, we're getting there now.
The term "aeroelasticity" wasn't used before 1935
Tacoma Narrows opened in 1940.
So, what really happened was that the bridge was designed using the engineering guides and standards available at the time. Aeroelasticity, being a new idea/problem hadn't made it into bridge design codes.
All of theory which was used in the design was sound, is sound, and remains sound. Bernoulli hasn't been re-written. Hooke's law hasn't been re-written. The laws of elasticity remain unperturbed.
What has happened is owing to the failure, and some aircraft failures caused by flutter, a new branch of theory has developed, aeroelasticity. That's how science and engineering work.
Yes!, theory is incomplete, and raises as many questions as it answers, but, without it, most of us would be living a peasant's life. To decry theory seems a perverse position to take.
|
>> Yes!, theory is incomplete, and raises as many questions as it answers, but, without it,
>> most of us would be living a peasant's life. To decry theory seems a perverse
>> position to take.
Blind faith in existing theory is just as perverse. Bernoulli's theory was understood, but the possibility it could affect existing engineering codes and theories was ignored. Experience was the key.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 28 Aug 11 at 23:28
|
>>Blind faith in theory is just as perverse.
Are you attempting to level that accusation at me? Based on what evidence?
However, I absolutely agree with the statement. Of the things I have designed, it was only the most basic aspects of the designs which I would trust without testing.
Hypothesis + Theory + Testing tends to give the most robust solution.
>>but the possibility it could affect engineering existing codes was ignored.
I think "ignored" is not the right thing to say. The need to consider aeroelasticity certainly wasn't appreciated.
I'm absolutely sure that there are things being designed and used now [always have been and always will be] where the engineers didn't fully apreciate all of the theory which is working. In most cases, it doesn't matter.
One of things which distinguish an engineer from a scientist is the ability to go beyond existing theory to get things done. So, for example, if we had waited for a reasonable description of vehicle dynamics, there wouldn't have been any cars until the 60's or so. That some early cars were dynamically shocking is not entirely unconnected!
I do some consulting, mainly with smaller companies now, and it never ceases to surprise me how much they achieve without having the first idea of the governing theory. The nice thing is that, usually, by applying some more logical approaches to design, I can usually help with their problems or new designs.
|
>> You seem not to understand what aquaplaning is Zero, and are unwilling to understand it,
>> so carry on.
>>
I am fully aware of, and experienced aquaplaning. If you have ever experienced it at speed ( and it sounds like you haven't) at the front you will realise just how scary it is. I am not talking push on oversteer here, I am talking a sudden 10 foot movement left. Do stop telling me I don't understand.
Aquaplaning at the rear can be mitigated if you have contact with the tarmac at the front.
>> Massive difference between oversteer due to aquaplaning at the rear, and oversteer due to pushing
>> too much power through the rear wheels/losing traction without aquaplaning.
I am aware of that I have experience of both.
>>
>> The fact that it is harder to make a FWD car step out at the
>> rear than a RWD car doesn't diminish the result when it does
Its very easy to provoke oversteer, ie loss of traction at the back, in a front wheel drive car.
and its very much easier to correct in a FWD car. IF you have grip at the front.
|
|
Like I said earlier, no one ever wins this discussion. Opinions are too divided. Maybe, just maybe that's because it's not entirely black and white? But what would I know? I'm just a driver.
|
A thought occurs to me, and i'm not trying to inflame a mostly good natured thread.
People are advised by the experts it's only safe to put new tyres on the rear regardless of the driven wheels configuration of the car, some agree with this and some of us choose our own fitments after careful consideration.....that's fair enough i'd have thought.
Many new tyres require considerable scrubbing/bedding in before they give decent grip.
My own experiences are it's usually around zero (Vredesteins) to 500 miles before a car tyre gives it's best, up to 2000 on big 4x4 tyres and up to 5000 on truck tyres.
I don't read reports of people flying willy nilly into the scenery because they have failed to take into account their newly fitted tyres are not yet giving full grip, how come this doesn't happen?
|
>> and
>> some of us choose our own fitments after careful consideration.....that's fair enough i'd have thought.
>>
I think it's absolutely fine for people to make up their own minds. But (and the reason I started this was reference tyres being fitted on your daughter's car) it needs a bit more thought if other people are going to be driving the car.
>>
>> I don't read reports of people flying willy nilly into the scenery because they have
>> failed to take into account their newly fitted tyres are not yet giving full grip,
>> how come this doesn't happen?
>>
I've had 2 near near things on rep-mobiles with brand new tyres - one was the car sliding sideways on a bend, and the other was fronts only being replaced and they locked up completely on the approach to a roundabout. Both times they were cheaper tyres than the OEM tyres (the second time really budget tyres as the car was just about to come off lease). I got our fleet manager to agree that tyres should only be changed like for like in future.
|
>> I think it's absolutely fine for people to make up their own minds. But (and
>> the reason I started this was reference tyres being fitted on your daughter's car) it
>> needs a bit more thought if other people are going to be driving the car.
I'll take that in the manner it probably means, why do you think i've tried to find the best possible all season fitments, and left them till the start of the cold season before fitting?
Indeed knowing how my daughter drives, and following her mentioning, not complaining about the lack of traction when taking off like a scalded cat, i made the decision to swap back to benefit the vast majority of her driving.
|
>> I don't read reports of people flying willy nilly into the scenery because they have failed to take into account their newly fitted tyres are not yet giving full grip, how come this doesn't happen?
It does happen but fortunately it is a very rare occurence, as sometimes it only happens to you once.
I have experienced episodes of front-wheel aquaplaning on motorways, as per Z - not a fun experience - imagine if the same amount of water was on a motorway bend - indeed some water dispersion occurs due to the action of the front tyres, but if the rear tyres are far worse (note: not slightly worse) than the fronts then they may let go = hedge time.
I've seen many, many cars in fields. Almost always they appear to have either gone through a hedge backwards or have rolled. Neither of which are to do with front-wheel grip.
If you drive sensibly and are aware of conditions where you put tyres is moot.
Like Bill Payer above, whenever my friends have managed to 'lose the back' I have noted different types of tyre front-rear. Wanli in particular appear woeful - I think when they statutorily test wet-grip on tyres I hope some of the Chinese brands see it as a reason to up their game and compete on capabilty as well as purely cost.
If you drive like a hero and wear your fronts to 2mm before putting them on the back and replacing the fronts with the 'new pair' then you stand a greater chance of 'the big fail'.
My last experience of running out of grip was in the Shogun (RWD) at a relatively low speed on a small roundabout - the back stepped out (tyre tread fine all round) and I corrected as you would with a 'dab' of opposite lock and not panicking on the pedals - I noted the Traction Control activated also. This wasn't aquaplaning however (difficult at 15-20mph!) and thus not very exciting.
|
...If you drive sensibly and are aware of conditions where you put tyres is moot...
Agreed.
The contention that FWD cars wear the fronts much faster is not borne out by my experience of two diesel Focuses.
Both needed four tyres replacing at a time, give or take a barely measurable extra mm or two on the rears.
|
Interesting observation Iffy. Driving sensibly to the conditions and keeping a margin over legal tread minima certainly helps. Most of us will probably never get near the danger zone. My only experience of losing traction on the move was with cheap 'Sava' branded tyres on the front of an ex fleet BX. Brief directional wander and the rev counter bounced off the limiter - changed them for Michelins pdq.
All my recent cars - BX, Xantia and Berlingo - have worn fronts well ahead of rears. The BX to the point that tyres left on the rear would fail structurally with bubbled running surfaces before the treads got near 3mm. Rears off the Xantia wore oddly and, when moved to front, felt utterly unsafe - complete loss of stability as though shocks were worn or tracking out by miles.
|
Contrasting observations with our two tonne-and-a-half FWD diesels. The S60 scarcely touches its rear tyres - they typically have 6mm of their original 8mm when it's time to move them to the front after 20-24,000 miles. (Manufacturer's recommendation - good enough for me.)
The Verso, on the other hand, is more like Iffy's Focuses: it took a surprising 25,000 miles to wear out its first front Dunlop Somethings, then needed the ex-rears replaced about 3,000 later. My guess is that the suspension compromises required to manage a tall body make the rear end work harder than in a more conventionally shaped car like a, erm, Focus. I'll go away and think this one through.
|
>> My guess is that the suspension compromises required to manage a tall
>> body make the rear end work harder than in a more conventionally shaped car
Interesting - on wifey's Honda Jazz the fronts are a little more worn than the rears but there's not much in it. Will need replacing fairly soon after about 15K miles. Looking on a Jazz forum that mileage seems pretty typical / good for the Dunlop SP2030's fitted.
|
|
15k miles? Lordy lou. The lowest mileage I have ever had out of a tyre is 28K!
|
>> 15k miles? Lordy lou.
And they're quite dear too as only 3 recognised manaufacturers make that size (185/55R16). Som eof the posters on the Jazz forum are going ape about it, as "they're last car did 60K miles (or whatever) on a set of tyres".
I can only think they're very soft. Interesting (as this thread is about all season tyres) they're not rated as such, but they never gave us a moments concern during the last two winters.
|
Hydraulic Citroens with trailing arm suspension are very easy on rear tyres - I have only recently retired a tyre off the back of my Xantia that bears a date that suggests it is original, and it may well have been on there since new - 110k miles! It had certainly done at least 70k in my ownership... I had a BX with virtually bald tyres on the back and the rear still wouldn't unstick even giving it plenty around the Highlands in the rain. Xsara Picasso seems to be much harder on rear tyres by comparison, at just 40k miles.
Good tyres go on the front of mine (although the replacemen for the tyre above went on the back where it came from...) - snow tyres will go on the front when the time comes.
|
Just got some Vredstein Quatrac 3 SUVs fitted to M's new wee mud plugger. Missing the mountain & snowflake symbol of the Quatrac 2's, although there is a random snowflake symbol on the sidewall. Tread looks a bit like the Nokians but not polished. Will see how they go.
Not expecting them to be as good as the bridgestone winters were on the Golf (which we successfully ran over the summer with no noticeable performance or wear impact - although on one of the sunny days they did leave black tread marks on the driveway), but Vredestein seem to get good reviews across most of their range so fingers crossed.
|
I never have to worry about any of this. When I need a pair of tyres, I buy 4. I like to have identical brands and patterns on all wheels, and grip at both ends.
It might be a bit more expensive than doing it in pairs and rotating, but in terms of overall ownership costs over years of ownership, the difference isn't worth worrying about. My life, however, and that of my passengers, is beyond value.
I think that should be the standard "recommendation" for most people, especially the cars-as-domestic-appliance driver. Never mind about where to put the baldest tyres, just get 4 new ones! No one ever said car ownership was cheap.
|
|
I buy 4 at a time because it's cheaper, next time AV, big smile 'ahh what's your best price if I'm going for 4 instead of 2?' :-)
|
|
Indeed Skoda, I'd forgotten that wrinkle. Always get a better unit price for 4.
|
Alan, I am sure there will be someone along shortly to say that your theory is self defeating, you buy all 4 to be the same tread and then you run them until 2 need replaced. So therefore you are running with 2 a lot poorer than the other 2 for the majority of their life.
Oops - did I just say that? :)
Using your theory wouldn't work on my car - fronts need changing every 15-20k, but still on original rears at 55k with a good level of tread left. I would be chucking money down the drain if I had replaced the rears each time.
|
>> fronts need changing every 15-20k
Are you allergic to your wheel brace? :-P
|
You're right there, Bobby G. Perhaps I need to rotate mine occasionally. Food for thought.
But I'll still buy 4 at a time I reckon.
Last edited by: Alanović on Tue 30 Aug 11 at 12:59
|
Skoda, did you get these from Coopers?
I got the Quadraxers from Auchinlea yesterday, they couldn't source the Quatracs.
|
Quatrac 3 SUV's and now Quadraxers.
Well done chaps, will be expecting some appraisals in due course when the ice and snow arrive.
|
>> Quatrac 3 SUV's and now Quadraxers.
4 Quadrac 3's ordered and being fitted on Friday.
>> Well done chaps, will be expecting some appraisals in due course when the ice and
>> snow arrive.
Will do.
|
>> 4 Quadrac 3's ordered and being fitted on Friday.
>>
Excellent stuff Corax, should be some notes to be compared in due course.
Bobby will be still be ok for reports given his SWMBO is getting the good boots, it means she'll be getting home no bother and rustling up his tea, a dinner critique of a snowy night when other hubbies go hungry will suffice..;)
Noticed something....those who maybe don't tow the party line and fit their tyres where they judge is best for them are the ones that have invested in winter suitable tyres.
Corax is undeclared about where he would fit his new tyres so far....so what is it C, do you fit them on the back or are you joining the bad boys in the naughty corner, 's ok here we have a crate of beers and some blueys showing..:-)
|
GB I am probably breaking every rule in the theory book, especially just putting the all seasons on the front but the back treads are fine so could not justify it.
Now following the theories, maybe I should put the winters on the back of the FWD car so that , when the front wheels are spinning helpless in the snow, and the car ain't moving, at least the handbrake is on the winter tyres at the back to hold it. :)
|
>> Corax is undeclared about where he would fit his new tyres so far....so what is
>> it C, do you fit them on the back or are you joining the bad
>> boys in the naughty corner
Naughty corner for me GB. I've always put the best tyres on the front. I like oversteer more than understeer. I had an Alfasud as my first car with god know's what tyres on the front - that thing used to lose all the steering around muddy bends on rural lanes and slide towards the kerb. I had a string of rear wheel drive cars, on occasion losing the back end, but learning to control it I found this much more fun, and to me, more 'natural'.
Saying that, some of it depends on the car. My old SD1 would slide out at the back, but it was easy to control due to the long wheel base, so it had a slower pendulum effect than say, my slightly unnerving Mk 2 Escort which would snap out more quickly, not helped of course by it's lowered stiffened leaf spring suspension.
The Avensis is as benign as a pussy cat - The front has drifted on a greasy roundabout, but the car feels utterly balanced and stable. Must admit that HJ has got that right in his description of it - "An amiable thing. Does the job very well. And never, ever snaps back".
I was thinking of getting all seasons just for the fronts, but I've had what sounds like a wheel bearing drone - it changes on different road surfaces though. Can't say which tyre is causing it, so I thought what the hell, I'll replace them all. I've got some cheapies on the front anyway - Capitol's?
|
Aye Coopers again. Camskill were out of stock in this size (235/60/16) and MyTyres don't appear to stock them in this size. Tried the other suspects, etyres etc. but no joy.
Phoned coopers and Mark said they were good friends with the Vred rep... callback later that day "when would you like them fitted?" :-) Nice! Cheaper than Camskill as well.
|
|
Out of curiosity, did you try for a price on the Quadraxers?
|
|
Costco have snow chains in - display instore - £60 for a set (IIRC)
|
Looks like the Scottish chapter of c4p is expecting a hard winter.
But I suppose they always expect a hard winter.
|
Iffy, some of us down here consider your location to be Scotland. :-)
My grandad, married to a Northumbrian (my Nan, from Ashington), thought Geordies to be tantamount to Scotsmen. But then, he was from way down south. Malta.
|
...Iffy, some of us down here consider your location to be Scotland. :-)...
It's about 100 miles to Scotland, depending on which bit of the border you head for.
When southern fans turn up at Sunderland AFC's Stadium of Light, one of the chants they use is : "You're Jocks, and you know you are."
|
|
Reading get "You're Welsh and you know you are" from visiting London clubs. Rightly so.
|
Iffy, with this preparation you can guarantee we will have the mildest winter in history.
Maybe I should be looking for cold weather tyres for my pedal bike instead of the car......!
|
...I should be looking for cold weather tyres for my pedal bike instead of the car...
I wonder if there are any measures taken by cyclists to keep them upright in the winter?
|
>>I wonder if there are any measures taken by cyclists to keep them upright in the winter?
Yeah, leave it in the garage. ;>)
|
|
Anybody ever tried oponeo.co.uk for their tyres - delivery from Poland within a week, and they look cheap to me.
|
|
Oponeo are a fiver dearer for delivery than the fully fitted price I just paid.
|
Had a good look at the Kleber Quadraxers tonight - the rubber is really really soft, much of the tread is in individual blocks and I could wiggle each block about with my fingers.
Really interested to see how these do over the next year or so in different weathers and temperatures. Unfortunately they are on the missus' Beetle so she will not be able to give me any feedback and it means that I will need to drive it myself to see how they are :(
|
|
I was in Costco (Edinburgh) this morning, they now have a range of Michelin winter tyres.
|
Back in the days when both radials and cross plies were common, I wonder if the "theory" mockers and deniers were putting their radials on the front axle, and their cross plys on the rear?
|
>>I wonder if the "theory" mockers and deniers were putting their radials on the front axle, and their cross plys on the rear?
Certainly not, it was illegal and most of us were probably in RWD.
I'm doing a grass autotest soon. Now where should I put my new pair of tyres and the barely legal pair for maximum traction, braking, steering and handbrake turns on a FWD I wonder? ;>)
|
>> Back in the days when both radials and cross plies were common, I wonder if
>> the "theory" mockers and deniers were putting their radials on the front axle, and their
>> cross plys on the rear?
>>
>>
My theory is that all the mockers and deniers are a bunch of mimsers who couldn't break traction if they tried, regardless of what tyres they had fitted where. :-)
|
|
You dont know what pressing on is ON, your limited to a maximum of 20 knotts.,
|
>> Back in the days when both radials and cross plies were common.
Remember me dad telling me 'bout them good old days..;)
Never did mix cross plies and radials, thinking about it i don't recall owning a car on cross plies.
Driven cross plies on trucks and found them very good for wet grip, which the big name in radials soon changed and gave us all wheel steering.
No theory mockers here, some of us do have the experience and feel to know whats better for our vehicles, as Hump said above it's not all black and white.
Many people haven't the foggiest idea what sort of tyres they have or need, probably the majority now, these people need a fail safe rule, for goodness sake half of 'em are incapable of changing a wheel.
From surveys (BMW 1 series mentioned istr) many don't know whether their cars are front or rear wheel drive, it seems incredible but hardly surprising, how could they make a valid tyre grip judgement.
|
>> From surveys (BMW 1 series mentioned istr) many don't know whether their cars are front or rear wheel drive
I posted this before but it still cracks me up: sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs739.ash1/163100_10150345411125613_727855612_16227965_4872837_n.jpg
|
...Unbelievable, shakes head at the future....
Ah, got it now, snow chains on the front of a RWD car.
Would help with steering in the unlikely event the driver could gain any forward motion.
|
>> Remember me dad telling me 'bout them good old days..;)
The last time I saw it was when a Ford Escort van was presented at my father's garage for an MOT. It must have been 1987 / 88.
I well remember the van, because I was acting as assistant tester, and I had to prod the tester to fail the car because the mixed cross ply and radial tyres were indeed fitted on the wrong axles!
The chap who presented the van was well known to us, and I can never remember him bringing a car which passed first time. He tried to argue with us that he had got the tyres the right way round - using similar arguments to some seen on this thread!
|
>> that he had got the tyres the right way round - using similar arguments to
>> some seen on this thread!
Oh do stop it, or I shall bring up another engineering failure, and you can argue the calculations were sound even tho it was in pieces,
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 1 Sep 11 at 13:23
|
>>I shall bring up another engineering failure
Like your lamentable attempt last time - bring it on!
To advance an argument which says that the theories which underpin vehicle dynamics are wrong means overthrowing Newton's laws of motion - do you feel lucky?
|
Newton never had tyres to work with.
Lamentable attempt? you were shot down in flames! rather like the bridge!
Those outside influences , or the stuff that's not considered will shoot you engineers down every time.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 1 Sep 11 at 13:34
|
>>Lamentable attempt? you were shot down in flames! rather like the bridge!
To the contrary, which THEORY did you demostrate to have failed?
NONE! You failed completely.
>>stuff that's not considered
Yes - when you're designing something, it is important to decide what you are and what you are not going to consider. It is an impossibility to consider everything - you can't distill the whole of human experience and knowledge into anyone.
The value of theory, which is massively underestimated and mocked by those who have never used it is that it can tell you about lots of designs which could never work - it allows you to reduce the number of possible designs in a rationable, sensible, and defendable way.
What theory can never do is provide any sort of guarantee that the designs left after this filtering process will ot be susceptible to something beyond the technical area to which the theory applies.
-----------------
If you're daunted with overthrowing Newton's laws - and I can see why - you might prefer to set your sights lower, and aim to knock out a theory of tyre sideforce production - Pacjecka's string model perhaps?
|
Not going to overturn newtons laws, however you seem to be guilty of pretty severe "filtering" as you put it.
Anyway, I don't have time to bandy this now, I have some painting to do, unless of course you feel there is some law of newton I have to consider about which hand to hold the paintbrush. ;)
And you can say what you like, the tacoma bridge was still an ugly heap at the bottom of the narrows. ;P
|
>>I have some painting to do
Don't fall off your ladder! - you haven't disproved Newton yet!
|
>> I was in Costco (Edinburgh) this morning, they now have a range of Michelin winter
>> tyres.
>>
I got a set from Costco Chester a month ago. Sitting in the garage on a spare set of wheels.
Rumour has it that it's going to another very cold winter. That's unless I also buy a multipak of de-icer, in which case it'll be positively balmy!
|
|
I can confirm it's very likely to be a cold winter - my new car was ordered incorrectly and won't have a heated windscreen. Heated seats will keep me warm when it's defrosting though. But you need them with leather!
|
|
My cat is growing another very thick coat, suggests it will be a cold winter again.
|
>> Das ist gut, Ja? ~ www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAwuw_Ojm78
>>
Yes, but I can't bring myself to buy any more Continental Tyres. Ordinarily I'm a sucker for buying stuff with the words "Made in Germany" written on them - but I make an exception for Continental.
I have had two full sets (they were on the car when purchased), and Mr's L another two sets and we are deeply "underwhelmed".
Michelin or Bridgestone every time for me.
|
What puts you off them Londoner?
(I've decided similarly about the oem conti's on mine)
|
There are two main things that put me off them. Handling and Running Cost.
Safety is high on my priorities, so I appreciate safe handling.
On paper figures are OK, but Continentals always feel "slippery" to me (like cheap tyres) i.e that they are losing traction too easily. Not too bad in the dry, but very unnerving in the wet.
When I first got the BMW with runflats, I felt like I was driving in the wet all the time - they were so skittish. As soon as I put Bridgestones on all four corners, the handling was transformed to the excellence that you expect of a BMW. It's been the same story with our other cars over the years - Nissan, Vauxhall and Mercedes.
Continentals are also expensive to buy and don't last as long as rivals. This makes for poor running costs. For example, the set on the BMW lasted 21,100 miles (which the garage thought was good). The replacement Bridgestones lasted 36,971 on the rear and 38,515 on the front. (I keep figures - sad isn't it).
|
>>Yes, but I can't bring myself to buy any more Continental Tyres<<
That's interesting, I'm considering winter tyres for my Lancer, and they were at the top of my list!
So it's back to Michelin Alpin then :)
|
Anyone have any views on these tyres, they seem ideal for my Lancer + the coming ice age ~
lovetyres.com/tyre/Bridgestone-A001/195-60-15
|
|
If they're anything like the Bridgestone LM-18's we had on the Golf - the treads look similar at least - they're fantastic. Don't have any bad words for those, heavy rain and snow were their forte.
|
|
Cheers Skoda, they check out much better than my existing Turanza ER30 jobbies.
|
>> Anyone have any views on these tyres, they seem ideal for my Lancer + the
>> coming ice age ~
Same size as mine, and far more than I paid for my Uniroyal rainmasters.
|
Those Bridgestones look like a snow-tyre design - should be better than a "wet" tyre in the snow.
Of course the argument usually rages that if you need snow tyres to proceed, it's best to stay at home anyway ;-)
|
>> Of course the argument usually rages that if you need snow tyres to proceed, it's
>> best to stay at home anyway ;-)
>>
Yup, you may have a 4X4 tractor on tyres sticky enough to drive up vertical ice but I guarantee the car in front of you won't. :-)
|
|
Snow tyres aren't sold here: we get winter tyres. IIRC snow tyres have spikes.
|
By snow tyres I mean ones with the snowflake/mountain symbol.
Studs/spikes are for ice/hard compacted snow.
|
>>Same size as mine, and far more than I paid for my Uniroyal rainmasters<<
They seem to check out quite well, although I can't find any actual reviews on them,
My main concern is that we live in an isolated spot down a country lane, it's either up or down hill once we leave our property and the lane never gets gritted, I heard of places less remote than this being absolute no-go for quite some considerable time in Cornwall, so, I'll have a basin full of those Bridgestone A001's for £344 supplied & fitted via Blackcircles who I've used before with good results.
|
>>>Of course the argument usually rages that if you need snow tyres to proceed, it's best to stay at home anyway ;-)
Not so... there is no need to go looking for 2ft drifts because you have winter tyres. Just appreciate them for being able to drive on the stuff we have to drive on with a far greater safety margin. Proper winter rated tyres (ie cold weather tyres) are particularly good when it is dropping close to freezing but not quite ice when normal tyres can give that skittish feeling.
BTW been away and busy for a while... good to see debate still raging (NC vs Zero).
Last edited by: Fenlander on Fri 2 Sep 11 at 10:57
|
I've still to hear someone who's fitted cold weather tyres and decided they were a waste of money.
|
How many people do you know who would freely admit "that was a complete waste of money"?
Most seem too vain to admit their mistakes.
|
|
Ok, i'll up the ante. I've still not come across anyone who's bought them and not been vocal about the benefits :-)
|
My only experience of winter tyres was on a rental car in Serbia in February, which I documented on here somewhere. They were cheapo Maxxis and all I can say is that they were wonderful. Piloted a boggo Citroen C4 through feet of snow, and on compacted ice, with utter confidence and stability.
I've never driven with them on the UK's roads in winter and remain unconvinced of their value for money here, given the relative infrequency of harsh winters in the long term. Having said that, I'm toying with the idea of getting some for one of our cars.
|
>> Ok, i'll up the ante. I've still not come across anyone who's bought them and
>> not been vocal about the benefits :-)
>>
For me it's the feeling of being glued to the road in cold wet conditions, when the summer tyres you removed had started to feel not quite up to the job as the temps dropped and the rubber hardened, add in going through standing water without the slightest tug on the wheel.
The fact you can make reasonably normal progress when the snow slush and ice arrives is simply the icing on the cake.
SWMBO would try all the tricks in the book to delay me refitting the summer set as Spring arrived, she loved throwing the pick up round like a well shod car...slightly different for my own cars as i'd already gone winter/summer sets before the latest higher speed rated snowflake marked all seasons became available, given the situation now i would go one set, all season, every time.
|
|
GB has it spot on... there's no vanity at work.. they're simply miles better.
|
Just ordered the winter rubber Linglong some chinese tosh i expect, there m&s markings and only for 3-4 months to hopefully give some 30% more grip than i got this winter, got 4x 215/55/16 H.
When the ice and snow has gone there coming off and the Bridgestones back on.
|
>> Just ordered the winter rubber Linglong some chinese tosh i expect, there m&s markings
Please keep us posted, it'll be very interesting to hear how they do BT, i noticed the less known brands were just about the only ones available as the last winter deepened, unless you had bottomless pockets.
I had considered Kumho all seasons for daughter's car, well appraised by most buyers on Tyretest.com but the recognised European tests of their winter rubber wasn't great, so i plumped for a known good brand instead, not strictly fair on my part and i'd have gladly experimented if they were for my car, might just do that next time for the hell of it..
I wonder if our little band of cold weather tyre converts here is reflected in the wider circle of motorists, or are we a bit peculiar..;)
|
GB, I hereby nominate you to be the central point for collating information on brands and feedback from us users.
How you do it, I have no idea, maybe start your own thread once the cold weather kicks in?
|
>> How you do it, I have no idea, maybe start your own thread once the
>> cold weather kicks in?
>>
OK, if no one else fancies it, and most would do it better, i'll start a thread come the cold weather and we can add our notes, triumphs and failings.
|
"... if no one else fancies it, and most would do it better, i'll start a thread come the cold weather..........."
Thanks. My Dunlop winters are in the garage on steel wheels awaiting the onslaught and I'll be happy to report findings.
|
|
As are mine....as previously said adding a very peculiar but not unpleasant aroma to my garage..
|
>> I wonder if our little band of cold weather tyre converts here is reflected in
>> the wider circle of motorists, or are we a bit peculiar..;)
I think it should be reflected in the wider circle of motorists, if only to stop a repeat of the usual shenanigans every winter. OK, there isn't always weeks of snow, but it is cold and icy for at least 4 months of the year.
|
|
My BMW sales chap told me they've done a roaring trade this summer..
|
My Uniroyal Rainsport 2's have got me through at least 2 winters - snow and all.
I shan't be changing them for winter tyres this year either.
|
Well said VX:)
Now let's hear it from those of us who can moderate our driving to accomodate the weather!
Off to bed again now:)
Pat
|
European drivers have a set of winter tyres to swap over im told it's a legal requirement?, it's this country that grinds to a halt when the snow comes as drivers are not prepared with the conditions and the tyres.
Rear wheel drive cars go nowhere but they do in Germany because they have snow tyres fitted, and drivers learn to adapt, here we expect the grittter to be out every day and clear it.
This country and some of it's drivers are just plain slack.!
|
Bigtee, check out the choas in germany last winter.
Then come back and tell me they cope.
We get weather bad enough on 0.1% of the year. I have no intention of changing my tyres to cope with such a small issue.
|
>> Bigtee, check out the choas in germany last winter.
>>
>> Then come back and tell me they cope.
>>
>> We get weather bad enough on 0.1% of the year. I have no intention of
>> changing my tyres to cope with such a small issue.
>>
Winter tyres don't improve the driving of the incompetent drivers who can't drive in poor weather conditions..
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 3 Sep 11 at 09:24
|
>>We get weather bad enough on 0.1% of the year.
Especially us here in leafy Surrey :-)
>>
>>I have no intention of changing my tyres to cope with such a small issue.
>>
Especially as us retired types can stay indoors for a few days and watch the sliders outside :-)
|
>> Especially as us retired types can stay indoors for a few days and watch the
>> sliders outside :-)
>>
:-)))))))))))
I was out walking on a beautiful crisp cold blue skied day last winter when I saw a woman (sorry) in a stationary Range Rover further down our street looking puzzled as she sat there with all four wheels slowly spinning. She could not see the big pile of snow that the front of the car had bulldozed. Must be one of the people who think a 4X4 can go anywhere in any conditions. I saw lots of them when I was a skier. :-)
|
Interesting piece here from HJ regarding ABS & ESP on ice and snow ~
"Remember, on snow and ice ESP is normally best switched off because it can fight a driver's reactions to a skid in super slippery conditions. But you need to find an open area and test this out for yourself before switching it off.
On hard packed snow, frozen snow or ice, ABS might actually prevent the car from stopping because it automatically releases the brakes on wheels that are skidding. If all four wheels are skidding it will release the brakes on all of them. So on snow and ice, think ahead and start braking gently a lot earlier than you would in normal conditions. This is particularly important descending inclines or approaching junctions from side roads where you could skid straight out of the side road into traffic on the main road".
Read the whole article ~
www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/parts-and-accessories/2010-11/snowtyres
Last edited by: Dog on Sat 3 Sep 11 at 10:53
|
The 'early' ABS system on my 1986 Honda Prelude (dubber 'ALB' by Honda) would allow a single front wheel to lock, then unlocked it if it detected the second front locking. It would not allow either rear wheel to lock.
It seemed to work quite well in snow.
More recently I've been far more cautious in snow and have never really had the ABS doing much on newer cars to feel any deficiency.
Surely modern ABS will unlock all 4 wheels briefly then reapply the brakes again when they are all turning, similar to cadence braking (upon which ABS is based) - maybe the sensation of all 4 wheels failing to grip is simply because the cars are much heavier than pre-ABS, and the tyres have a wider (and thus crapper in snow) footprint?
|
A common mod in 4x4 circles is an ABS kill switch, inline with the ABS control unit's fuse, for when you're off road.
Some modern cars (Skoda Yeti) have a button for off road ABS - it's still abs but allows the wheel to lock and stay locked for a moment or 2 to dig into a loose surface.
|
My old R1200GS had switchable ABS....never messed with it !
|
When I think back over my 38 years of driving experience, ABS wouldn't really be of much use (to me) on ice or snow, because I try not to use the brakes at all, if I can get away with it,
Reading HJ's article, I would switch the ABS off if I could on my Lancer - in such conditions, maybe,
The maybe is because I would have to find out more exactly how the ABS works in conditions described by HJ's article, and how it relates to my particular car.
|
|
From my experience, it depends a lot on the the type of snow (wet/dry) - the depth of snow and whether it's frozen....never been much of a big deal for me..
|
Driving in fresh powdered snow, the type of snow that can build up a wedge in front of the tyre and stop you faster than non ABS, is pretty rare. Most of the time ones drives in snow in the uk, its the wet slushy type, or hard packed to ice, where ABS would be beneficial.
I rarely need to stop suddenly in gravel either, as i rarely go rallying in my road car.
So for me, non switch-able, on all the time ABS is fine.
|
Brother's auto Civic struggled on wet grass/light snow unless you turned off the traction control.
|
Wife's auto FRV was fine despite traction control - 205/55x16 OE Bridgestones.
Not much use when the snow was 6" deep as it would ground and flounder - it stayed at home during last year's heavy snow other than the run to the supermarket on half-cleared roads.
I'd just drive the Forester up and down the drive until it had squashed a car-wide path to the main road for the FRV to drive down.
|
This is the bit that raised my eyebrows somewhat ~
"On hard packed snow, frozen snow or ice, ABS might actually prevent the car from stopping because it automatically releases the brakes on wheels that are skidding. If all four wheels are skidding it will release the brakes on all of them".
|
Most ABS systems work purely on wheel speed sensors.
These measure each wheels speed against the other wheels.
If one, or 2 wheels are rotating slower than the others, then the brakes are released on that/those wheels for a split second.
If however, ALL 4 wheels lock,as on ice, or aquaplaning, then the ABS ECU will read that the car is stationary....
Some ABS systems do add in a lateral sensor that will sense the forward movement, and I expect this will become standard.
|
The winter rubber arrived this morning a good looking tyre with a nice tread pattern, ordered friday came monday from Germany not bad going.
Now to find 4x wheels if i can to make it a bit easier than swapping over on my rims.
|
|
What? tyres have you gorn for then Bt.
|
>>What? tyres have you gorn for then Bt.
www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?t=7153&m=171066&v=e
"Just ordered the winter rubber Linglong"
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 5 Sep 11 at 12:59
|
>>"Just ordered the winter rubber Linglong"<<
Oh gawd :)
|
I'm considering fitting 4 Vredestein Snowtrac 3 winter tyres to my Lancer and keeping them on all year round.
I don't do many miles at all, so, is it a no, a no no, or a no no no?
|
Likewise.
The 225/40 ZR18 Kumho's on my 330Ci are reaching the end of their life, and as I am prone to changing my cars on a whim do not want to spend a small fortune on 2 full sets of winter/summer tyres and spare steels.
I drive slower than I used to and cover fewer miles, so ultimate grip & handling in summer is not an issue. I am happy to compromise and leave the same tyres on all year, and when winter conditions are really bad I do not go out to play!
Having said that, I need to make a decision sooner rather than later.
|
|
Same with me l/lad in every respect, it's just that we live in a moorland position combined with untreated country lanes and I must be able to get out 5 days a week.
|
Fortunately with my current job I walk to work, but I live at the top of a short steep hill which leads directly onto an untreated country lane in the upper Ribble valley.
One of the joys of living in 3 Peaks country.
|
M's winter bridgestones left black marks on the driveway over summer. Although it didn't impact tread depth i wonder if it's not some crucial oils or something seeping out and damaging winter performance. No proof of this idea, just wondering.
Have put all seasons on this time, will see if a modern all season tyre does the job. Certainly saves storing rims although i was £35 up after fees via ebay for the spares.
|
>>if it's not some crucial oils or something seeping out and damaging winter performance.
So you'll keep them in the fridge in future?
|
>> So you'll keep them in the fridge in future?
Well, i don't think i'd leave them in direct sunlight on top of warm brick driveway now :-(
|
|
Yep! - Bridgestone A001's are still in with a good a chance BTW, just gotta get it right that's all.
|
Are Town & Country tyres still around? They were quite popular in the 70's, and I remember that an old boss of mine had four on his Triumph Mayflower.
Quite some tread depth.
|
Dog and LegacyLad, i've seen recommendations about the one set all year question from car tyre makers, sods law decrees i can't find one now i want it..;)
The overall opinion being that the tyre makers and experts (oh no) recommend that if you have one set of tyres that you are better overall with a winter set.
From memory, Nokian WR are supposed to be a winter tyre specified for all year use, always score in the top slots in tests too.
May be worth looking into.
|
>>From memory, Nokian WR are supposed to be a winter tyre specified for all year use, always score in the top slots in tests too<<
If they're OK for Finland, they must be OK up here :)
|
As are ContiWinter Contacts, Dunlop WinterSports & Michelin Alpin's.
Decisions decisions.
|
And don't forget the www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Tyre/Goodyear/UltraGrip-7-Plus.htm :)
I think I'd be better off with an all season tyre such as the Bridgestone A001 simply because a winter tyre is just that - designed for winter and will wear out quite quickly with summer use,
breaking performance wont be as good in summer either,
Ideally I'd like a set of steel wheels to fit them to, but I ain't prepared to fork out c£200 for them.
|
>> Ideally I'd like a set of steel wheels to fit them to, but I ain't
>> prepared to fork out c£200 for them.
>>
Check offsets and PCD, maybe search for a set of Mitsubishi wheels, used steel or alloy from another model.
Maybe even another probably Japanese make, most Japanese 4x4's wheels are of the same fittings, i wonder if the cars are the same.
|
>> Check offsets and PCD, maybe search for a set of Mitsubishi wheels, used steel or
alloy from another model.
Maybe even another probably Japanese make, most Japanese 4x4's wheels are of the same fittings<<
Cheers gb, I did wonder about that, I'll have to check it out ASAP.
|
>>
>> >> Check offsets and PCD, maybe search for a set of Mitsubishi wheels, used steel
>> or
>> alloy from another model.
>> Maybe even another probably Japanese make, most Japanese 4x4's wheels are of the same
>> fittings<<
>>
>> Cheers gb, I did wonder about that, I'll have to check it out ASAP.
Use your steel spare wheel for guidance.
|
>> I think I'd be better off with an all season tyre such as the Bridgestone
>> A001 simply because a winter tyre is just that - designed for winter and will
>> wear out quite quickly with summer use,
I think full winters like Vredestein Snowtracs might be a bit overkill for all year round use. But Nokian GR's are supposed to be a good all year tyre and there's a lot of good reviews for their snow performance. A few people on one of the Mercedes forum's use them all year round and don't notice much extra wear in the summer, and Merc's are heavy cars.
www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Tyre/Nokian/WRG2.htm
www.mbclub.co.uk/forums/wheels-tyres/86503-nokian-wr-g2.html
Last edited by: corax on Wed 7 Sep 11 at 17:42
|
>>I think full winters like Vredestein Snowtracs might be a bit overkill for all year round use<<
Yes, I was thinking the same, corax, those Nokian GR's seem to check out well though, I'll have to see what the availabilty is like, I notice that a lot of cold weather tyres are either out of stock, or on back order.
Woss all this about Essex having no hills then, Brentwood is level with the top of St. Pauls Cathedral I believe,
and there is Harold Hill :)
|
I've found a supplier of Nokian GR's = Mytyres.co.uk
I entered in my tyre size = 195/60/R15/88H and they came up with = 195/60 R15 92H,
Is that OK - the 92H bit, if I were to have all 4 replaced I wonder?
Most unusual tread pattern BTW on those Nok's.
Last edited by: Dog on Wed 7 Sep 11 at 20:27
|
|
Okey dokey - 88H etc. is just the speed rating :)
|
>> I've found a supplier of Nokian GR's = Mytyres.co.uk
>>
>> I entered in my tyre size = 195/60/R15/88H and they came up with = 195/60
>> R15 92H,
>>
>> Is that OK - the 92H bit, if I were to have all 4 replaced
>> I wonder?
Yeah, that's the speed rating, I bought 4 Vredestein Quadrac 3's in H rating. Nice solid feeling on the road, but still wearing them in at the moment. Of course they felt a lot better after I'd let 10psi out of them all. The fitter pumped them up to 42psi when they're supposed to be 32psi :)
>> Most unusual tread pattern BTW on those Nok's.
I was going to go for them, but in the end I thought the Vreds suited my purposes better. Still think the Nokians would be a good option for you in the wilds. But GB is the purveyor of all things rubber :)
|
>> Woss all this about Essex having no hills then, Brentwood is level with the top
>> of St. Pauls Cathedral I believe,
>> and there is Harold Hill :)
OK OK I was comparing it to Old Navy country, but you're right. I used to live in Brentwood halfway up a hill. And Brentwood gets a lot of snow. I went through there last year, no sign of any roads being gritted. Traffic lights at the top of Brook Street, and cars having to do a hill start on compacted snow when the lights went green - that was interesting.
|
>>I used to live in Brentwood halfway up a hill<<
My wife hails from the council estate down the Ongar Rd - Danes Way, her 86 year old dad still lives there!
She went to Hedley Walters school in Brentwood.
|
>>I live at the top of a short steep hill which leads directly onto an untreated country lane in the upper Ribble valley. One of the joys of living in 3 Peaks country<<
Nice area of the world! within striking distance of the Dales/Lakes - far form the madding crowd :)
|
>> position combined with untreated country lanes and I must be able to get out 5
>> days a week.
TBH Dog, the last car you want in the wilds where you live is an Automatic Lancer. Its light up front, limited ground clearance, and little control from the auto box!
|
>>TBH Dog, the last car you want in the wilds where you live is an Automatic Lancer<<
All depends on the weather though Zero, doesn't it, if the forecast of another ice age is anything to go by, we should be OK, b'cos previous forecasts about weather have been wrong!
I've driven auto's for many decades now and I'm quite happy with them in winter conditions but - I'd let the critter warm up first owing to the quite fast idle from cold, anyway, I've been using it more and more as a semi-auto (Tiptronic) lately, and I quite like it :)
|
Nice little video that, made a competent car out of one that would have been hopeless, wide section too.
By the way Dog, don't forget to check for spigot size too.....
|
We haven't raised the spectre of Front v Back for 5 days now, so here is a small tale of experience.
I had the new Uniroyal Rain experts fitted on the back a week ago, because Kwik Fit wouldn't swap the wheels round - " too busy" they said.
Ok says I, I will do it later.
Didn't do any serious driving for two days (about 50 miles toodling about) then needed to do a quick blast up and down the A3.
Horrors of Horrors, at 75mph+ the car felt frighteningly unstable, a lane change provoked a quick period of contemplation of my sins and a sphincter twitch. Some considered rowing of the steering wheel to establish the extent of the issue made me assume I had a puncture. The back felt like it was steering the front.
So back home I checked pressures, all ok, the wheel nuts are all torqued right, look underneath for possible suspension damage from being badly jacked, find nothing wrong.
So on Monday this week the fronts got moved to the back (they have 3-4mm on) and the new ones to the front.
A drive in the very heavy rain of Tuesday, and a high speed blast up the M1/A1 today has revealed all is settled down again. The front now feels like its pulling the back along again.
|
Confirming ONLY that you didn't run the tyres in.
|
Having driven over 600,000 miles in my lifetime I have occasionally had new tyres so I do know what new tyres feel like.. This was not one of those occasions.
All you need to do is roughen up the surface and get the releasing agent off, it takes about 10 miles.
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 7 Sep 11 at 15:51
|
>>it takes about 10 miles.
No, quite a bit longer than that - some compounds need a few hundred miles.
|
|
Well I have driven on probably 30 pairs of new rubber, never had to run any of them in for more than 10 miles, and none have felt like this did.
|
|
It was fine till I ran over some bike rack that had fallen in the road.
|
Reactions slowing are they? I've heard that happens to older drivers. Want to get that checked out you do. You should consider wearing a flat cap while driving from now on. Helps serve as a warning to others that you might be getting a bit doddery...
:-)
|
Rubbish, they should ban those strap on bike racks, the roads are littered with them, fine the owners I say. Make it a criminal offence to own or sell one.
Should have to pay to have them disposed
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 7 Sep 11 at 17:28
|
|
Quite so. Clip on ones are fine though. Be ideal for your car. Want one?
|
I'm surprised you seem happy to have such obviously crap tyres on the back of your car.
Not fancy going for a full set of new rubber, or waiting til the wires are poking out ?
:-)
|
Offset ... PCD ... now spigot size! just as well we've got the ww :)
www.alloyguide.com/pcd.php
|
|
is this thread going to beat the all-time favourite "Mats" thread some of you may remember?
|
>> >>"Just ordered the winter rubber Linglong"<<
Bodyshop man love you long time...
|
He may love you when you can't stop.
Have you seen this not read all threads a bit of waffle above.
www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/miscellaneous/2011-09/ats-open-tyre-hotels/
|
>>Drivers who choose to buy winter tyres will be given the option of storing them in a safe location until Spring, at which point technicians will assess them and ensure they’re safe to be refitted for the warmer months.<<
Why would you buy Winter tyres, store them till Spring, and then put them on for Summer!!??
|
>> >>Drivers who choose to buy winter tyres will be given the option of storing them
>> in a safe location until Spring, at which point technicians will assess them and ensure
>> they’re safe to be refitted for the warmer months.<<
>>
...and I wonder quite how many they will declare to be "unsafe"? Hmmm...
|
I do sometimes wonder how I've managed all these years without winter tyres. Must have been jolly lucky by the sounds of things. Driven vast distances all over the UK and Europe in all weathers and seasons and elevations in front wheel drive, all wheel drive, rear wheel drive, manuals and automatics. Usually fully laden and in the case of the leased cars often with only barely legal summer tread until they were prepared to change them at sub 2mm. Always had any new rubber on the driven wheels. Never managed to crash any of them or get particularly stuck either.
I liken understeer and indeed oversteer to ABS. If it kicks in you're driving like a twonk in the first place or alternatively you did it for fun.
Anyway, good to see the economy getting a boost if nothing else eh?
:-)
|
+1
What a lot of wusses:)
Pat
|
>> I do sometimes wonder how I've managed all these years without winter tyres.
Well, we can't all be driving god's.
:)
|
On the contrary. No such claim made, but a bit like many things we are being told we need to protect ourselves from life itself it might just be a lot of fuss about very little.
The world has gone a bit too "high visibility jacket" for my liking. Still, at least some of us got to be here for a while before the thought police took over.
|
>> On the contrary. No such claim made, but a bit like many things we are
>> being told we need to protect ourselves from life itself it might just be a
>> lot of fuss about very little.
>>
>> The world has gone a bit too "high visibility jacket" for my liking. Still, at
>> least some of us got to be here for a while before the thought police
>> took over.
I think that more winter tyre/all season tyre use would be beneficial though. At least things would keep moving during 'the big freeze'. This'll be the first time I've used all seasons - more an experiment for me, as there aren't any hills in Essex, but I could still do with that extra bit of grip when it's dodgy on the roads. Last year I drove to town along a fairly clear road. My side of the road was in the morning sun. I came back on the other side in the shade, and thought that part of the suspension was loose. The back kept fidgeting sideways, almost like a rear steer. I ended up pulling into a side lane and checking the car. Nothing untoward. It's just that my side of the road was covered in black ice, and I presume the tyres were sliding off the undulations and camber in the road surface. Not pleasant. I still had the BMW at the time.
I think haulage companies should have chains to keep the lorries moving on motorways - they're usually the reason for the big hold ups.
|
Certainly not. Although if I thought folk were daft enough.
Hmmm...
|
>>Anyway, good to see the economy getting a boost if nothing else eh?<<
*rolling on the floor laughing*
|
Eh ... About time we had another winter tyre thread :-)
I went for the Nokian WR G2 tyres in the end for my Lancer 195/60/15 = £383
To be fitted in Bude next week (Budeful!) ... roll on Winter :(
|
Auto Express has a "Total tyre guide" (test) of winter tyres this week. Apparently the manufacturers are scramblig to make sure the do not fall foul of the new rating system. I have managed almost 50 years of driving without winter tyres, I think I might just survive without them.
Yesterday I overheard someone complaining to the staff that people were walking around a cinema foyer without lids on their coffee cups and it was dangerous. God help us when we have a major disaster.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Fri 9 Sep 11 at 15:32
|
Like seat belts, laminated windsreens, crumple zones, air bags etc., etc., etc.
We don't need em - until we need em!
|
>> I went for the Nokian WR G2 tyres in the end for my Lancer
My winter set for the Benz, be especially interesting to hear of your thoughts with these.
Especially re noise and ride quality.
My summer set are Toyo...actually no time for another thread...OH NO..:-)
|
The Lancer (like the Benz) is well insulated from engine/road noise, but I'll see how the Nokians go gb,
The present Bridgestone Turanza tyres are noted (I believe) for their comfort, but with me it's safety 1st!
Clever people those Finns :)
|
Well, I think it was about a year ago that we got our first covering of snow here in Scotland, certainly had it in November.
So Looking for some advice on the all season Klebers I fitted - to make them last longer in this current climate should I
a. apply total sun block to the tyre walls or
b. will factor 30 be sufficient???
:)
|
|
It's blooming unbelievable, been mincing about in me polo shirt tonight at work, coat too warm.
|
|
Yeah, and I've still not used any of me 60 bags o' Taybrite which I've hidden away from the 'travellers' :)
|
|
Yippee, a few inches of snow on the roads this morning!
|
|
Oy've still got my 60 bags o' Taybrite :D
|
All season tyres - Dave
