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My gas man tells me that my boiler fault, on which I have already spent £200, may be cured by a new PCB. As the boiler is 13 years old is it worth spending just short of £400 on a part? If he advised the fitting of the PCB and I took him up on it, would I have to pay if it didn't fix the fault? I am looking at a new boiler (about £1800 fitted) rather than throwing more money at the old one. Any thoughts please? I have already looked at a current boiler thread here and have good guidance on what new one to buy, if I go down that route.
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As your boiler is 13 years old a new one will probably be more efficient if it is a SEDBUK "A" spec machine with up to date controls. The new boiler I am getting fitted next week to replace a 12 year old "D" spec one has a six year manufacturers warranty.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 25 Jun 11 at 09:29
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Presumably this isn't BG, or you wouldn't be looking at £1800 for a new boiler, it would be twice that.
Have you asked around to get a second opinion from another plumber, or indeed tried to find a used PCB..though how you'd do that is another question entirely. The new PCB ''may'' fix the fault from your OP, if i'm paying £400 out it jolly well better fix the fault or is the part returnable if the fault stays.
Can you muddle on or does the fault make the boiler unworkable.
Could do with a 'Screwloose' of the boiler fraternity to come and diagnose properly, or is there the boiler equivalent of BBA Reman for such things.
If the £400 is a gamble and you can really get an all singing and dancing boiler supplied and fitted for 4 i'd be inclined to make that investment.
Our boiler is now 22 years old and still going strong, we have Worcester Bosch pencilled in but can't see the economics of changing for the sake of it.
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I live on a development of about 100 houses, all of which have the same make of boiler. My neighbours have just had theirs replaced and it cost £1800 and was actually BG who were offering a £400 "discount" on Worcester/Bosch boilers.
The fault is that the boiler fires up and heats for about 2 minutes and then cuts out for 2 minutes and then relights. This is associated with a warning light on the control panel going on/off in sympathy. It is fine for heating, which I don't need at the moment but I can't run a bath and a shower with alternating hot and cold is a bit of a pain!
PCB prices are a nonsense! One can buy a very respectable new computer for £400!
Last edited by: Meldrew on Sat 25 Jun 11 at 09:58
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>> Our boiler is now 22 years old and still going strong, we have Worcester Bosch
>> pencilled in but can't see the economics of changing for the sake of it.
>>
My new one will be a WB, don't forget that boilers usually die when there is snow on the ground and all the plumbers (sorry, heating engineers) have gone to the tropics for the winter. :-)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 25 Jun 11 at 10:00
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>> My new one will be a WB, don't forget that boilers usually die when there
>> is snow on the ground and all the plumbers have gone to the tropics for
>> the winter. :-)
>>
Thanks a bundle there Navy, now you've put the kiss of death on our boiler i'll be having words if your prediction comes to pass.
Very cheap the neighbours replacement via BG Meldrew, they wanted £3400 after negotiation to replace ours.
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Not many heating engineers (and I know a few) take their holidays during the winter months. They're not daft.
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>> Not many heating engineers (and I know a few) take their holidays during the winter
>> months. They're not daft.
>>
There was a :-).
They do tend to be busy and not readily availiable for jobs which can take a day or even a few days.
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>> They do tend to be busy and not readily availiable for jobs which can take
>> a day or even a few days.
>>
And you have to parachute them in away up in Haggisland, unless they run winter tyres.:-)
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>>>> They do tend to be busy and not readily availiable for jobs which can take
>>>> a day or even a few days.
I use plumbers / heating engineers on a fairly frequent basis, so I know just how difficult it can be to get hold of them - and not just during the winter months. The problem, of course, is trying to get one's work done for a reasonable price, but relying on the 'one man band' firm when you have an emergency in the middle of December can prove frustrating, to say the least.
What I tend to do nowadays is to use a small firm for scheduled work, but when I need to get hold of someone more quickly, though not necessarily for an emergency, I use a firm that employs about a dozen or so people, where I know that my call will be answered immediately and my problem will be resolved the same day.
You pays your money, etc...
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>>
>> Could do with a 'Screwloose' of the boiler fraternity to come and diagnose properly, or
>> is there the boiler equivalent of BBA Reman for such things.
>>
I suspect that 'change the PCB' in the world of boiler fixing is like 'change the ECU' in terms of car fixing, i.e. it is sometimes done because the person doing the 'fixing' doesn't fully understand the control systems involved. I'm assuming that, like cars, boilers have become more complex, and more difficult to diagnose properly or cost effectively.
Certainly the new boiler at my last house was on its 3rd control PCB by the time we moved out, and it was only 3 years old, so either there was a fundamental design flaw on the PCB or it wasn't the root cause of the problem.
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it wasn't the root cause of the problem.
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Indeed the ECU's as fitted to my model of MB rarely go wrong but are frequently damaged by degraded wiring or ignition coil failure out which sends a short back and blows the ecu output transistors in seconds.
Probably pennies for the increasingly rare parts but a competent repair will set you back £350, mind you that pales against a new ECU at around £1500 all in.
As with these things some companies offer much cheaper reconditioning, but fail to repair or even find the fault, and frankly are fraudulent part hunters in some cases...i could write a small book on this having had two ECU's damaged on two different MB's.
Really wish i could get my head round such things, not only would competent PCB repairs fund a comfortable life, it would be satisfying to offer a value service to hard pressed homeowners.
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...I suspect that 'change the PCB' in the world of boiler fixing is like 'change the ECU' in terms of car fixing...
I suspect the same thing.
I'm increasingly erring towards simple - and generally cheaper - white goods.
Some people at the caravan site have electronic display microwaves, which are more trouble than they are worth in that application.
The power does go off occasionally - either a cut or forgetting to top-up the meter - which means constant resetting.
I also like to leave the microwave oven door ajar, particularly if cooking has produced a lot of steam, but also if I'm leaving the caravan for an extended period.
Can't be done if opening the door automatically turns on the light.
So for me, clockwork and a manual power control is best.
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>> may be cured by a new PCB. As the boiler is 13 years old
>> is it worth spending just short of £400 on a part?
Definitely not.
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Let's say you spend £700 per hear on gas.
A new boiler is 5% more efficient so you will be saving £35 per year.
Let's say the repair will last 5 years and the boiler will still then need replacing
If you repair the boiler your total costs over the next 10 years will be
£400 plus £1800 less a saving of 5 x 35 = £2,125
If you replace the boiler now the costs will be:
£1,800 less 10 x £35 = £1,350
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>> A new boiler is 5% more efficient so you will be saving £35 per year.
>>
My new one will be 20% more efficient, If you believe the specs.
Still not cost effective, I am looking for reliability, and am prepared to pay for it. My current boiler has had three repairs and has a poor reputation, so I am improving the system.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 25 Jun 11 at 10:21
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Also with new boilers you have to factor in their pathetic reliability and that the new condensing types seem to be essentially scrap after as little as 4 years in some cases. You won't get the life out of a new one. I asked this of a WB guy and said I wanted a new boiler to last 20 years. He has no chance. The old ones would.
I'm sure I found a spares place which repair pcbs as they do an exchange system. Prices were much less than for new ones. It's worth seeing if the repair can be done more cheaply as then it becomes a no brainer to keep the current boiler.
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>> Also with new boilers you have to factor in their pathetic reliability>>
I think this reputation (if it is accurate) comes from poor standards of installation and also the fact that unprotected condensate drain pipes can freeze and cause the boiler to shut down.
A bit like motoring forums, only the people with problems are seen.
There were a lot of frozen condensate pipes last winter! Easily fixed if you know what the problem is.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 25 Jun 11 at 10:31
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Missed the edit:-
My condensate pipe will be internal as the new boiler is being relocated to the loft and I have an internal soil stack. This will take the drain and the pipe will be insulated.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 25 Jun 11 at 10:37
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>> Missed the edit:-
>>
>> My condensate pipe will be internal as the new boiler is being relocated to the
>> loft and I have an internal soil stack. This will take the drain and the
>> pipe will be insulated.
>>
That's about the only way I think you can get away with draining the condensation and not risking freezing up. Not all lofts are suitable and it makes getting to the boiler awkward.
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Due to global climate warming change (or whatever they are calling it this week) water will be forbidden from freezing in the UK untill the next ice age.
I wonder when the EU will pass a law saying that all heating systems must be converted to air conditioning? :-)
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Everyone I know with a condensing boiler last winter had problems with it. Even ones that were installed correctly. Pipes froze anyway. One friend had their boiler wreck its internals due to freezing. Only about 5 years old so hardly environmentally friendly either. I think the reputation came from a Which report which was published a few months ago. They will be some failures due to cack handed installation I'm sure but to me it is a fundamentally flawed idea to have a system which involves draining water externally in freezing weather! The condensing part should be bypassed in very cold weather altogether so there isn't the risk of the pipe freezing up.
Found the place I found years ago that does reconditioned and repairs pcbs.
www.cetltd.com/
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>> Everyone I know with a condensing boiler last winter had problems with it. Even ones
>> that were installed correctly. Pipes froze anyway. One friend had their boiler wreck its internals
>> due to freezing.
I assume you don't know many folk with condensing boilers.
Did it have automatic frost protection? If so was it faulty?
If not it should have been kept warm. RTFM springs to mind. :-)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 25 Jun 11 at 10:47
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This is the location of the boiler in a house similar to mine. In my house the soil stack is behind the boiler. My insulation is 200ml on top of that in the photo. The old boiler was floor standing below the vertical pipe runs from the boiler.
tinyurl.com/663gvnc
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 25 Jun 11 at 10:57
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>> www.cetltd.com/
>>
Many thanks TB, noted for future reference.
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Excellent. I might give them a try, the price is keen compared to new one from stock. Thanks for the link
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I found this site quite interesting ~ www.homeheatingguide.co.uk/
My old broiler at the previous property was a Glow-Worm Hideaway 60 which comes out at band F (poor)
and would be an ideal candidate to be culled.
Where as my present boiler (oil) is a Grant combi 70 v3 and comes in at C which is good,
although it's not as efficient as band A boilers, very little saving would be made by replacing the critter.
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>> although it's not as efficient as band A boilers, very little saving would be made
>> by replacing the critter.
I wonder if these efficiency figures are as accurate or applicable to normal usage as official given car fuel consumptions, which few are able to match in the real world.
If this discussion was about cars, many posters would say one was wasting money by spending thousands on a depreciating object to save a questionable amount of fuel.
Should these figures should be taken with a healthy pinch of salt, and if it aint broke etc applied.
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...Should these figures should be taken with a healthy pinch of salt, and if it aint broke etc applied.
Agreed.
The old Ferroli combi in Iffy Towers would probably be efficiency band Z, if there was one.
But unless a new boiler cuts my gas bill in half, it's not worth replacing.
Even if it did cut the bill by that much, it would still be a lot of years before I would be back to square one in money terms.
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>> Even if it did cut the bill by that much, it would still be a
>> lot of years before I would be back to square one in money terms.
And by the time you reach break even point, the new super duper nukem boiler you bought is then 12 years old and you'll be told that's now destroying the planet and you need the extra nukem turbo intercooled irradiated boiler....fast forward another twelve.
Glad i'm not the only one by the way Iffers.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Sat 25 Jun 11 at 14:42
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So why do you drive an extra nukem turbo intercooled irradiated car then?
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>> So why do you drive an extra nukem turbo intercooled irradiated car then?
>>
I don't, i drive an old as the hills even older design Panzer, but put fork lift fuel in it.
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...So why do you drive an extra nukem turbo intercooled irradiated car then?...
I do, because a car has enormous pleasure/toy/pride value for me.
The water from a 2011 £3,500 boiler would be just the same as the water from my old Ferroli, that is, hot.
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>> The water from a 2011 £3,500 boiler would be just the same as the water
>> from my old Ferroli, that is, hot.
>>
>>
Glad I am not using your plumber at that price, does he drive an extra nukem..................:-)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 25 Jun 11 at 15:02
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£3.5k was the sort of price BG wanted to supply and fit a new boiler in our gaff, obviously that included pressure flushing the system, and some basic modifications to the vents.
Not with them any more, and wouldn't give them my custom again.
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>> Not with them any more, and wouldn't give them my custom again.
>>
I have had my moneyswoth out of them keeping this boiler going, they get dumped at the arrival of the new one. The installers will get the annual service job and it has a six year manufacturers warranty.
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What make is that ON? I can't see it mentioned in your earlier posts. A 6 year warranty might outlive me!
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>> What make is that ON? I can't see it mentioned in your earlier posts. A
>> 6 year warranty might outlive me!
>>
www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/homeowner/events-promos/extra-12-month-guarantee
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I plucked the figure out of the air, but the point is well made - heat is just heat.
Plus I imagine a proper job at Iffy Towers would entail replacing rads, or at the very least new valves, and a powerflush.
The boiler would be around £,1,000, so I wouldn't expect change from twice that.
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I've done the sums on replacing our old boiler. Makes zero economic sense...
Modern boilers with electronics designed from 1980 to c 2005 are junk as basically they ignore the rule that electronics and water don't mix and cheap components don't last. Read WHich to see. Some are good.
And many installers are frankly incompetent running condensate in pipes outside horizontal and uninsulated so hence freeze in winter..
If I'm going to spend £4k on a new one, I want a cast iron 7 year guarantee. BG gives 1-2 years. Says it all..
And if a boiler is 100% efficient does not mean to say you won't lose a lot of heat in the system. Does your system have 100% insulated pipes on supply and return pipes under the floor? No? If not, boiler efficiency is meaningless.
If there was a sensible thermodynamic standard for heating system design and implementation about 99% of all new installations would fail.
It's all marketing and any heating engineer who can do sums knows it. I did the sums 30 years ago .. and I'm not a heating engineer but all info is easily available...
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 28 Jun 11 at 00:57
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Luckily, our newly-acquired bungalow in Buxton has a cellar, and the heating pipes are insulated, sort of! Will need to look properly and maybe further insulate the floor and pipes. Could even trace heat the incoming water pipe. New boiler will definitely have to have condensate drain within the walls, which what should be done in the CoP! The installers quoting do seem to be aware so far. Downside is the radon gas. However, I shall pretend it doesn't matter. I don't smoke:)
Last edited by: NortonES2 on Sat 25 Jun 11 at 18:29
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radon gas is not an issue, the cellar acts as the sump, just stick an exhaust fan in.
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S'not worth me buying a new broiler - I move house too orften :-D
My previous place in Truro was a 1936 3 bed bung with single 9"block walls & high (ish) ceilings,
The gas Glow Worm jobbie was 11 years old and my energy bill p.a. was about £1300 (inc. elec)
What I'ma trying to say is that if you've got an energy inefficient house combined with an inefficient boiler,
y'all gonna be burning money.
Where as if you've got (say) a well insulated owse but an old inefficient boiler,
your energy consumption could possibly be acceptable, considering the price of a new boiler.
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Boilernomics! - Old Navy
