| Non-motoring > Choosing University. | Miscellaneous |
| Thread Author: zippy | Replies: 126 |
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New Wed 8 Jun 11 21:29
Choosing University. - zippy
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My son is finishing his first year of "A" levels and is now thinking about what universities he wants to go to. We do not live in a University town, so there is no local University to go to, as one would do with a college. He will be the first in our family to go to university, so we have absolutely no idea of the process. I have suggested he makes a shortlist of universities based on the course he wants to do and where the university "ranks" based on quality and his anticipated grades (3 x A), in Chemistry, Biology and Physics. At the moment he wants me to take him around the country to every university there is that does the course he wants., which is totally impractical as I would need to take this and next month off! How do you go about choosing the right university? |
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New Wed 8 Jun 11 21:35
Choosing University. - RattleandSmoke
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Don't go too much of league table rankings just use them as an indicator. It needs to be a in a location that your son will be happy to spend three years in, that is more important than league table results which are often flawed. The perceived reputation of the university is perhaps more important as employers will have the same perception. It is always a good idea to pick some middle of the road universities as well in case the expected grades don't happen. The UCAS system may have changed though since I applied back in 2001/2002. |
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New Wed 8 Jun 11 21:44
Choosing University. - Fursty Ferret
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^^ What Rattle said. Sound advice. Don't look at all; pick the five "best" on whatever criteria you want and then visit those to come up with one or two to make your primary and secondary choices on the UCAS form. Depending on the course he might be asked to visit for interview anyway, but the open days are nearly always good and worthwhile. If you go with him for the interview wander around the university by yourself, then with him afterwards. Don't go with him to the interview. :-) Seriously, at mine, people were sitting there with their parents. Don't regret my choice at all. Visited Leeds twice - once for an open day; once for an interview and loved my three years there. Last edited by: Alfa Floor on Wed 8 Jun 11 at 21:45
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New Wed 8 Jun 11 21:40
Choosing University. - Alastairw
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When I was a lad, you sent off for lots of prospectus's, and then attended an open day at one or two. I imagine it is mostly done on the internet these days, but I think most unis still have an open day. Your sons school may even be running a trip to a localish open day. After that, its down to the UCAS (or whatever its called these days) forms. A piece of advice I was given. If you currently live in a small town, study in a large city, and vice-versa - gives you more persepective on life. |
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New Wed 8 Jun 11 21:51
Choosing University. - Bromptonaut
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We were there a year ago with our daughter, albeit for arts course (History & Politics). Agree the tour of the courses is completely impractical; he's going to have to get down to a shortlist of around half a dozen. First of all, make sure he has realistic grade expectations and a clear understanding of the uni's likley offer. We wasted £100 sending Miss B to Edinburgh for an open day - she ain't a 3A student. Next talk to friends and family - what happened to the cohorts 1 - 2 years older? What does the school say? Does your son have any thoughts about a campus uni versus one in a more dispersed but town centre context. Missy went right of campus sites after loking at York but loved Leeds & Liverpool. What about distance and ease of travel from home? A lot of students struggle with homesickness in the first term (but Christmas parties sort them out!!). Once you've got a shortlist then start on open days. |
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New Wed 8 Jun 11 22:02
Choosing University. - RattleandSmoke
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I was very lucky in that I had so many good universities in travelling distance. I ended up at Salford (but the department was a good one and stinking rich because of the research money) however I could have probably gone some where better with my grades. However I made some very good friends there so I don't have too many regrets. I do regret not moving out but I wasn't ready for it. It might be a blessing that your son has to move out as he can get the experience of it. I did all the getting drunk thing, but I always had to go home where my parents where each night so it was never the same! I used to be a lot more clued up about this sort of stuff than I am now as I have been out of the education system for far too long. What I will say though is I went to Salford, and struggle a bit financially, my younger sister went to Manchester and she is now on 31k a year. Although to be fair she was always much cleverer than I am! I am not going to say for one minute the quality of the university doesn't matter but it is not the only consideration. When I graduated I did a short course at the University of Staffordshire (an ex poly based in Stoke) and got talking to a few people who did the same course at me but at Stoke, I was shocked how much extra work was involved at Salford to get the same degree as the one in Stafford yet in terms of league tables Salford at the time wasn't much above Stafford. |
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New Wed 8 Jun 11 22:11
Choosing University. - Number_Cruncher
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From the other side of the lectern; If you're going to an open day, do some prep, and work out what questions you want to ask, and make sure you get some good answers from the academics who are there. I've seen lecture halls full of parents and students visiting to look at the facilities who sit there like rabbits in the headlamps when I open the forum for discussion. I've begun to use a few tricks to get the conversations going, but, it's clear that no real thought has gone on beforehand in the majority of cases. The open day does represent your best chance to get an academic to talk to one to one. Beware the course presentation. You'll see images of graduates doing attractive work - each course has its stars who go on to do great things, but, what's more representative? You'll see labs and equipment - will undergrads ever actually touch them?, or are they research facilities only? Don't be dazzled! Ask for detailled statistics for; - the number of students on each year of the course - the number who obtained placements in industry during their course - the employment stats for recent graduates of the course - with a breakdown by employment sector (I think the Prospect site gives these figures in a broad sense for each subject, but, not each university) The biggest thing to check though is that your child is ready to take charge of their own education, and to become much more active, rather than simply being a passive receiver or vessel. When I see students reaching the end of their course who have not made this leap of attitude and inclination, I mourn, because they have missed THE strongest advantage that a university education could have possibly offered them. |
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New Thu 9 Jun 11 10:33
Choosing University. - Cliff Pope
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>> >> >> The biggest thing to check though is that your child is ready to take charge >> of their own education, and to become much more active, rather than simply being a >> passive receiver or vessel. When I see students reaching the end of their course who >> have not made this leap of attitude and inclination, I mourn, because they have missed >> THE strongest advantage that a university education could have possibly offered them. >> >> Very true N-C. Those words apply so aptly, and sadly, to my own case. I won, without much effort I have to say, entrance to one of the best-regarded universities in the world, and wasted the wonderful opportunities on offer. It has taken 40 years of self-education since to come anywhere near to making up the wasted years. |
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New Thu 9 Jun 11 10:36
Choosing University. - Iffy
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...It has taken 40 years of self-education since to come anywhere near to making up the wasted years... I think you may set yourself too low. University is not for everyone. It matters not whether it's a self-proclaimed 'top' one or a former polytechnic. |
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New Thu 9 Jun 11 11:47
Choosing University. - Cliff Pope
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>> . >> >> University is not for everyone. >> >> It matters not whether it's a self-proclaimed 'top' one or a former polytechnic. >> >> >> I agree. I flatter myself I am/was university material, but as per N-C's post, I was not mature enough at the time it was on offer to benefit fully from it. As someone famously said, education is too valuable to be wasted on the young. :) |
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New Wed 8 Jun 11 22:03
Choosing University. - Manatee
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www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/ If he's lucky, there will be a knowledgeable and interested teacher or two that can give a steer on where the best regarded courses are, if that's a criterion. With some courses (e.g. robotics) it might matter more than others. There are other criteria of course - preferred areas, living costs, course costs, campus/non-campus, distance from home...he needs to whittle it down a bit to make it manageable, then he certainly should check out the short list at open days if he can. A teacher with the appropriate knowledge and experience will also help him to prepare for interviews if necessary - Oxford or Cambridge offers are usually subject to interview, as might be some others. I did the rounds with my two. Some places literally did a sales pitch and focused on how great the social life was etc., and made a fuss of the parents as well - Cambridge was the opposite - I wasn't even allowed in, daughter went in, had interview, came out - no sales pitch at all. There's loads on the web, including prospectuses which you used to have to send off for. |
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New Wed 8 Jun 11 22:10
Choosing University. - RattleandSmoke
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I shouldn't really post it as I used to be a moderator on this site, and I haven't used the site for years as I had a massive falling out, I thought the health sections where too extreme and had a falling out with other moderators over it. I met my ex on here and it caused problems so I left. Anyway it is a great resource for your son. www.thestudentroom.co.uk When I was on it it did have an Oxbridge bias but I think that has long gone. It was also full of bankers telling us how they would one day rule the world, half of them are probably in Prison now for some sort of fraud. Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Wed 8 Jun 11 at 22:10
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New Wed 8 Jun 11 22:19
Choosing University. - rtj70
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As already said it's about picking a place you want to live as well as the course. Can't honestly say how I worked out my main choices although for computing Manchester was always one of the better choices (that's the old University of Manchester and not MMU or what was UMIST). I didn't want to do London but did have Cambridge on my list. I think I must have read what the courses were about too of course. Manchester stood out to me all along and probably should never have applied for Cambridge because I preferred Manchester. Luckily I didn't get into Cambridge because I couldn't exactly turn them down. I also had a fallback choice being Welsh of a Welsh university... there was an unconfirmed thought that being Welsh speaking you'd be offered a place. Being realistic of where you could get in with regards grades is important. No point visiting or applying for places you're not going to get in. I know of someone who applied for law and had first choice as needing something like 4As and then put down their backup choice as needing 3As and a B! So they went through clearing because they got something like 3As and a C. Silly backup place if you ask me. They are happy on the course they're on but nearly ended up in a second rate place but got lucky (being Welsh and got into a Welsh uni they had not applied for). |
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New Wed 8 Jun 11 22:25
Choosing University. - Lygonos
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He'll want to go where the hot chicks are. Glasgow's out. |
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New Wed 8 Jun 11 22:30
Choosing University. - RattleandSmoke
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| At least he will stand a better chance of finding a chic in Glasgow! |
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New Wed 8 Jun 11 22:26
Choosing University. - Zero
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>> As already said it's about picking a place you want to live as well as >> the course. Surely, these days, its all about choosing the courses and university that will provide the best chance of well paid employment thereafter to enable you to pay off your student loans AND have a life! If you cant get a reasonable job afterwards, you are in a worse place than those who didn't go to university and now have work experience. Last edited by: Zero on Wed 8 Jun 11 at 22:27
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New Wed 8 Jun 11 22:30
Choosing University. - RattleandSmoke
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But if you're stuck in a place where that you hate for three years and become a binge drinking miserable depressed waster do you really think you will do well? Maybe you are just an exception and did well regardless. |
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New Wed 8 Jun 11 22:41
Choosing University. - Zero
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You'r not there to have a good time, it helps, but those days are gone. Long gone. There are loads of students coming out with good degrees this year, who cant find jobs. Gap years are being spoken of. That's not going to look good on a CV unless you do something worthwhile in your gap year. Unpaid intern-ships are being spoken of. The right course, the right university, and something in addition, something extra or experience you obtained in those years is needed in this current climate. Last edited by: Zero on Wed 8 Jun 11 at 22:42
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New Wed 8 Jun 11 22:49
Choosing University. - RattleandSmoke
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I agree with you BUT you have to be happy and have some enjoyment. Freshers are 18 and will want a bit of fun. I was a geek and a nerd at university and spent more money on books than booze but I still had to have nights off and have a good time. It is all about the balance, that goes in life general. If I was an employer I would want to employ somebody who know how to enjoy them selves, but I would also want to employ a serious worker, there is a balance. What I would not want is Mr Miserable No Friends who would just lower the moral with other staff. Anyway this is getting slightly off topic. |
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New Wed 8 Jun 11 22:51
Choosing University. - Zero
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Actually Rats its perfectly on topic. Things have changed, a lot, since you went to University. These days you would be saddled with 20-35k of debt. How would you cope with that. |
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New Wed 8 Jun 11 22:59
Choosing University. - rtj70
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>> These days you would be saddled with 20-35k of debt. How would you cope with that. For a good University, then a three year course in England will soon be £27k in fees. And borrowing for living expenses on top of that. Another £13k? So I make it nearer £40k of debt. I was lucky and did my first degree just as the loans were coming in. I borrowed a few hundred in my final year. But I had no expenses to pay for course fees or anything crazy. Now if I was in the same position now and knowing I was smart enough to (A) get into Uni and (B) get a first.... I'd get a job and do without running up the expense I think. University is where a lot learn a lot about life as well though. Going out and getting drunk and partying all the time is less likely now because (A) you need to get a good degree considering the debt and (B) you can't actually afford to. |
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New Wed 8 Jun 11 23:15
Choosing University. - Number_Cruncher
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>>(B) you can't actually afford to. Yes, it's now more likely that students today have their studies disturbed by their part time work commitments rather than the ale related absences which were a part of student life. |
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New Wed 8 Jun 11 23:17
Choosing University. - rtj70
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| So we need to add another consideration - somewhere you can get a part time job. In a big city like Manchester, a lot of bar jobs done by students. |
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New Wed 8 Jun 11 23:18
Choosing University. - Zero
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| Which means one of the big city campuses where PT work for students is easier to get. |
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New Wed 8 Jun 11 23:21
Choosing University. - Number_Cruncher
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Yes, there are 2 students on one of our courses who have jobs at a local Aldi, one of whom has been able to avoid student loans because of the hours he works at weekends and during the holidays. His experience of university may have suffered, and his work has suffered a bit. |
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New Wed 8 Jun 11 23:30
Choosing University. - CGNorwich
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He might be lucky enough to get a job at Aldi when he gets his degree. £40K p.a. as a starting salary ain't bad. www.graduates.aldirecruitment.co.uk/the_rewards/index.asp |
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New Thu 9 Jun 11 07:59
Choosing University. - henry k
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>>Yes, it's now more likely that students today have their studies disturbed by their part time work commitments rather than the ale related absences which were a part of student life. >> >>So we need to add another consideration - somewhere you can get a part time job. In a big city like Manchester, a lot of bar jobs done by students. >> >>Which means one of the big city campuses where PT work for students is easier to get. >> >>His experience of university may have suffered, and his work has suffered a bit. >> If it is a medcine degree then it is so so much harder. 5/6 years study and not the usual terms but more like a full time job with little leave unlike Oxbridge with vey short terms. I fortunately could afford to subsidise my daughter for the 6 years. I was told that quite a lot of Welsh students are able to start early in jobs in the Kingston area as the finish earlier than most English unis thus making it more difficult to find jobs. |
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New Wed 8 Jun 11 22:31
Choosing University. - henry k
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>> My son is finishing his first year of "A" levels and is now thinking about what universities he wants to go to. >> That at least gives you time to do greater research / visits. >> >> He will be the first in our family to go to university, so we have absolutely no idea of the process. >> We were in the same situation. Start by getting the most out of his teaching staff. Can they get him in touch with some already at uni ? >> >> I have suggested he makes a shortlist of universities based on the course he wants >> to do >> Check if the course is really what it states. I went from Surrey to the open day at Nottingham. Son was there 30 mins and home we came. They had changed the guts of the course which made it unattractive and we were unaware of the changes. But we learned a lesson. >> >> At the moment he wants me to take him around the country to every university >> there is that does the course he wants., which is totally impractical. >> It is very difficult re visits. I took my daughter with her great school friend to Bristol where her friends brother was studying. A whole day there and she said it was not for her. She was in for a six year stint so being female and working long hours away from digs we visited every London Uni AND accomodation site as I was really concerned about the whole scene. We suggested that unless it was unavoidable could they choose a Uni within a couple of hour driving from home ? Local friends, who were not short of £££s, finished up with many visits to son at Edinburgh. Lots of car miles and night stops. I was a softee and did many trips to smooth things for my two but daughter was only 40 mins away in London and son at Oxford which is only 75mins so I was lucky. >> >> How do you go about choosing the right university? >> Keep asking the questions of the school, unis, I assume you have tried Google - what university My son at the last moment changed his chosen subject completely and went to the interview with no preparation or work experience nowt. He was accepted at Oxford with basic AAB. My daughter did medicine with AAB and is still collecting degrees. So there are rules to be broken so aim high. Good luck and look in the sales for a dinner suit. |
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New Wed 8 Jun 11 22:40
Choosing University. - Bigtee
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| I wish i had of gone to uni not for the education but for all the sex and drink parties. :-) |
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New Wed 8 Jun 11 23:34
Choosing University. - John H
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>> He will be the first in our family to go to university, so we have >> absolutely no idea of the process. >> He may qualify for special treatment at some Universities, e.g. : www.cam.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/apply/csas.html >> I have suggested he makes a shortlist of universities based on the course he wants >> to do and where the university "ranks" based on quality and his anticipated grades (3 >> x A), in Chemistry, Biology and Physics. >> First priority, decide which course he wants to do. Physics: "To read Physics or any related course at university, A2 Mathematics (preferably including Mechanics) and A2 Physics are usually considered compulsory." Chemistry: "You will obviously need chemistry at A-level, and many leading universities prefer (and sometimes require) maths at A-level due to the large mathematical content of the course, additionally a further science subject is useful (particularly physics). Many Chemistry students are shocked by the level of Maths and Physics in a basic Chemistry degree, thus it is beneficial to take at least AS Level Maths, or to reach a similar standard by the time you start in September." >> How do you go about choosing the right university? >> Once he has decided on the course, narrow down the choice of Universities by looking at their minimum entry requirements. For example, in the case of Medicine, Birmingham won't look at your application if you don't have at least 8 specified GCSE subjects with A* grades. This page shows how the 2011 applicants are faring: www.thestudentroom.co.uk/wiki/Medicine_Applicants_Stalking_Page_2011_Entry Tell him to look at stats such as www.ucas.com/about_us/stat_services/stats_online/data_tables/subject/ Finally, remember that the £6000-£9000 fees are not payable up front, they are covered by a loan that has to be repaid at low interest rates and repayment amounts once you start earning a good salary; and then if the loan is not repaid within 30 years, it is written off. The loan is not tied to any assets you may own. |
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New Wed 8 Jun 11 23:44
Choosing University. - Manatee
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Some good stuff there which reminded me that subject requirements can be very specific. Daughter wanted to keep the medicine option open, and expected she'd need to do biology A level - not so, though chemistry IIRC was essential. Hence she did maths x2, physics and chemistry in the end. And then did engineering rather than medicine as it turned out. |
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New Wed 8 Jun 11 23:46
Choosing University. - rtj70
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Could try this 'worthwhile' degree: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-13668885 Fees are cheaper in Scotland for non-Scottish students. |
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New Wed 8 Jun 11 23:53
Choosing University. - John H
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>> Fees are cheaper in Scotland for non-Scottish students. >> Yes, for Scottish residents and EU residents - including those from wales and NI; but not for English residents. Last edited by: John H on Wed 8 Jun 11 at 23:54
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New Wed 8 Jun 11 23:58
Choosing University. - rtj70
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| Well our youngest applied a few years ago (still at Uni), an option was a Scottish Uni. The fees were definitely less back then. So it must have changed recently? His fried is at Glasgow and is paying lower fees than they would at an English university. |
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New Thu 9 Jun 11 00:10
Choosing University. - John H
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>> Well our youngest applied a few years ago (still at Uni), an option was a >> Scottish Uni. >> Just three articles of the many on similar lines: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1339386/ www.guardian.co.uk/education/2010/dec/16/english-students-tuition-fees-scottish-universities www.guardian.co.uk/education/2011/jan/13/european-student-numbers-soar-scotland Last edited by: John H on Thu 9 Jun 11 at 00:12
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New Thu 9 Jun 11 00:37
Choosing University. - rtj70
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| But it's currently not that way but likely to change. |
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New Thu 9 Jun 11 07:56
Choosing University. - John H
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>> But it's currently not that way but likely to change. >> rtj - I am keen to avoid thread drift, as this thread is about future students, and not current ones. So I will keep this short and just quote you this: "University education is free for residents of Scotland, and under EU law students from all other EU member states are entitled to the same free places. But under a quirk of European law and the UK's system of devolved government, English students are not able to attend for free because they are regarded as citizens of the same member state as Scotland – the UK." |
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New Wed 8 Jun 11 23:58
Choosing University. - henry k
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>> Daughter wanted to keep the medicine option open, and expected she'd need to do biology A level - not so, though chemistry IIRC was essential. >> Yes this seems to be a common misconception re Biology / Chemistry. My daughter reported that fellow medics who did not have A level Chemistry certainly did struggle in the first couple of years. Whatever course you take proper touch typing skill is of great benefit I ensured both my two learned this skill at a very early age. My daughter even got work as a medical secretary during uni ( mainly due to her typing speed. ) |
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New Thu 9 Jun 11 00:02
Choosing University. - rtj70
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For my Computer Science degree, the two A levels that were mandatory were A level maths and physics. Entry requirements (and the course) will have changed. As a postgrad we had to work in the labs with students. I also sat on a student/uni consultative board. It transpires the dropping of A level maths as an entry requirement caused all sorts of issues for teaching. Assumptions in certain courses would have been made about what students knew. |
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New Thu 9 Jun 11 00:08
Choosing University. - John H
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another official source to "Search, review and compare subjects at UK universities and colleges": unistats.direct.gov.uk/ |
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New Thu 9 Jun 11 06:57
Choosing University. - Iffy
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...The loan is not tied to any assets you may own... True, and student loans are interesting in another respect. They can not be included if the person is declared bankrupt. More or less every other debt can - court fines and benefits overpayments are two more exceptions. |
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New Thu 9 Jun 11 07:27
Choosing University. - hjd
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Remember to look closely at the requirements, and get advice from school/college (assuming they are clued-up). There are certain universities (UCL and Edinburgh as examples) where all applicants need to have a modern foreign language GCSE, no matter what course they are applying for. Only exception is if your school does not offer any. My son is just doing A2 exams; at his sixth form college we were warned off applying to Edinburgh as they have a policy of discriminating in favour of Scottish/ NE English applicants. His college (in Surrey) had only had one student offered a place at Edinburgh last year, and many rejections. Not worth wasting an application. My son is studying Maths, Economics and Physics and has applied to read Economics. From UCAS we made a list of all universities offering the course (that was a long list). He ruled out Wales and Scotland, then cut out the ones whose entry requirements were too high or too low. He then browsed them all online and rejected a few more. We then spent time in last year's summer holiday visiting a few - that got the list down quite a lot. Before we had even got out of the car at both Essex and Sheffield, he had decided they weren't for him. Eventually managed to choose the 5 for the form after going to some open days. However, universities' typical offers increased even after the application cycle had opened. For example, Liverpool's previous year offer was BBB. They printed the prospectus for 2011 entry and the grades had gone up to ABB. For anyone who applied after mid-January, and for all applications for 2012, it's now AAB. Quite a difference. My daughter started university in 2007. As her chosen subject was Scandinavian Studies, she only had a choice of two universities, UCL and Edinburgh. The process was much simpler then! |
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New Thu 9 Jun 11 08:10
Choosing University. - John H
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>> However, universities' typical offers increased even after the application cycle had opened. For example, Liverpool's >> previous year offer was BBB. They printed the prospectus for 2011 entry and the grades >> had gone up to ABB. For anyone who applied after mid-January, and for all applications >> for 2012, it's now AAB. Quite a difference. >> zippy's son should make sure he claims all the admission help available to him under the schemes to widen access to Universities, and this may mean being made offers at lower grades than students from more privileged backgrounds. He may well get financial incentives too - e.g.. www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1354726/ www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.d918.full "UK medical schools are legally permitted to modify their admission policies to increase applications from under-represented groups". Last edited by: John H on Thu 9 Jun 11 at 08:14
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New Thu 9 Jun 11 08:41
Choosing University. - Zero
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>> ...The loan is not tied to any assets you may own... >> >> True, and student loans are interesting in another respect. >> >> They can not be included if the person is declared bankrupt. >> >> More or less every other debt can - court fines and benefits overpayments are two >> more exceptions. So there is an interesting little lifestyle. Go to university, come out and claim incapacity benefit, eventually get caught (after how many years who knows) get fined and then immediately start bankruptcy proceedings. |
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New Thu 9 Jun 11 23:15
Choosing University. - Statistical Outlier
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| The new, incoming system of student loans is a capped graduate tax by another name. No more, no less. Potential students should evaluate whether they expect to still be better off after this tax is applied, and then forget about it. It is not a debt in any other meaningful way. |
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New Thu 9 Jun 11 12:18
Choosing University. - Mapmaker
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>>How do you go about choosing the right university? There are only twenty Universities in the UK vaguely worth attending. www.russellgroup.ac.uk/our-universities.aspx And I'd argue that Southampton, Warwick, Sheffield, Leeds, Glasgow, Liverpool, Belfast, Nottingham, Manchester, Newcastle and Cardiff are worth avoiding. I don't know anybody who attended any of them. So that leaves you with Cambridge, Oxford, London (four to choose from), Edinburgh, Bristol or Birmingham. If not at one of those nine, then Don't Go, it will be a Waste Of Money. Even if you do go to one of those nine then there is no guarantee of a job afterwards. I know DOZENS of recent Oxbridge graduates with no job. Oh yes, and the LSE won't do a science degree I presume he wants to do, and those forecast grades aren't good enough for Oxbridge, so I've reduced the list to six for you. And TBH without Maths A level I suspect he'll struggle to get into any of the remaining six. Plan B. Think about getting a job first that will pay for the University. E&Y are sending trainees to Lancaster, Deloitte (iirc) to (iirc) Durham. Plan C. Otherwise go and get a job and save £40-50k. PS What course does he want to do? |
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New Thu 9 Jun 11 12:22
Choosing University. - Alanovich
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>> And I'd argue that Southampton, Warwick, Sheffield, Leeds, Glasgow, Liverpool, Belfast, Nottingham, Manchester, Newcastle and >> Cardiff are worth avoiding. Why? I went to Nottingham. I suppose you imagine that would support your argument. |
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New Thu 9 Jun 11 12:27
Choosing University. - Mapmaker
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| Because I don't think it's worth £40-50k to go to a B-class University. |
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New Thu 9 Jun 11 12:27
Choosing University. - Alanovich
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| £40-50k ain't what it used to be. |
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New Thu 9 Jun 11 12:29
Choosing University. - Mapmaker
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>> £40-50k ain't what it used to be. >> I know, we were very lucky in our day. The world has changed. I'm not even sure that anywhere but Oxbridge is worth that sort of money - and in fact I'm not sure they're worth that. Interestingly the Government is going to ahve to reduce the overall number of University places as it cannot afford to finance the 9k that (almost) every University will be charging. I think that is a good thing. |
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New Thu 9 Jun 11 12:32
Choosing University. - Alanovich
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>> Interestingly the Government is going to ahve to reduce the overall number of University places >> I think that is a good thing. Broadly agree there. |
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New Thu 9 Jun 11 12:29
Choosing University. - Bromptonaut
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>> Because I don't think it's worth £40-50k to go to a B-class University. Which fails to answer the question. Why B class and are you sure you can be so sweeping across all subjects. Leeds used to be a leader in Colour Chemistry for example (things amy have changed with the decline of textiles). |
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New Thu 9 Jun 11 12:30
Choosing University. - Alanovich
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Besides, you can't make such a generalization. Some unfashionable Universities are the best in some fields of study. For example, Oceanography at Bangor. Surveying at Reading. And so on. So I think you're being far too harsh. |
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New Thu 9 Jun 11 12:37
Choosing University. - John H
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>> For example, Oceanography at Bangor. Surveying at Reading. And so on. >> What good are those degrees for? |
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New Thu 9 Jun 11 12:40
Choosing University. - Alanovich
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Oceanography is valued by oil companies (amongst others). Surveying by, erm, Surveying companies. What a stupid question. |
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New Thu 9 Jun 11 12:42
Choosing University. - Zero
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>> Oceanography is valued by oil companies (amongst others). Surveying by, erm, Surveying companies. >> >> What a stupid question. So thats a limitless career path then. How many new jobs are there every year for oceanographer trainees in the UK? |
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New Thu 9 Jun 11 12:43
Choosing University. - Mapmaker
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>> Oceanography is valued by oil companies (amongst others). Surveying by, erm, Surveying companies. >> >> What a stupid question. Not at all a stupid question. It's fine if you get to be a surveyor or oceanographer. If you don't, then to any other employer you've just got a degree from a down-market university. In the current climate I wouldn't risk either course without a relevant job lined up beforehand. It's no surprise that the two posters on here who are propogating the "all universities are as good as each other" are the two soft lefties on here, who I'm afraid are part of the process that has utterly ruined our education system and our universities. I cannot tell you how upsetting I find it that I write "these days there is dubious value to be obtained from a degree from a top twenty university". Last edited by: Mapmaker on Thu 9 Jun 11 at 12:45
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New Thu 9 Jun 11 13:01
Choosing University. - Alanovich
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You're at it again, MM. I agreed with you above (if you bothered looking) that there are too many University places, and I blame the former Labour governmant for introducing the ludicrous policy of trying to get 50% of the population to go to University. Madness, and the current Government are right to try to sort it out. But if anyone thinks we can have a fully rounded, fully skilled society without the likes of Oceanography and Surveying being available to study at university, then they're as mental as Blair and his nutcases were. Soft left? Me? No thanks, I'd rather have hard left or soft right (the latter we have at the moment and I quite approve on the whole). You've got me completely wrong as usual. |
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New Thu 9 Jun 11 12:57
Choosing University. - John H
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>> Oceanography is valued by oil companies (amongst others). Surveying by, erm, Surveying companies. >> >> What a stupid question. >> What a stupid reply. But then aren't you known for rage for the flimsiest of excuses? By your reckoning, oil companies and others are snapping up all the oceanographers who qualified at the University you reckon is the best for Oceanography. Twaddle or just more trolling. |
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New Thu 9 Jun 11 13:06
Choosing University. - Alanovich
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>> What a stupid reply. But then aren't you known for rage for the flimsiest of >> excuses? You mistake my robust views for rage, as do others on here. Try not to be so sensitive. >> Twaddle or just more trolling. You'd know. |
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New Thu 9 Jun 11 13:09
Choosing University. - Pat
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John H sensitive?? :) Pat Last edited by: pda on Thu 9 Jun 11 at 13:10
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New Thu 9 Jun 11 12:34
Choosing University. - Mapmaker
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>> >> Because I don't think it's worth £40-50k to go to a B-class University. >> >> Which fails to answer the question. Why B class and are you sure you can >> be so sweeping across all subjects. Leeds used to be a leader in Colour Chemistry >> for example (things amy have changed with the decline of textiles). I think your post agrees with what I was suggesting - i.e. that Leeds is not a world class University (given that you are able to identify a course that it does which is). And unless you are going to get a job in Colour Chemistry, nobody else will realise that you attended a world-leading course, they'll just think you went to Leeds. Likewise, if you want to be an Oceanographer, go to Bangor or a Surveyor then Reading. But if you fail to make it as an oceanographer/surveyor don't expect other employers to realise you've been to the best there is, they'll just think you've been to a down-market university. Why B class? Oxbridge and possibly London, A+; the others I mentioned, A, the other Russell Group therefore B, everything else C, D, E, F or U. I'm not suggesting that Leeds/Nottingham aren't good universities, merely that I don't think a degree from them is worth the money. Remember, this is £40-50k (plus interest which with inflation at 5% is no joke) we're talking about. I think the University system has become a disaster for our Nation and for Young People, and it's the fault of those do-gooders who think that A level results should get better each year, and who think that 50% of youngsters should go to University. They shouldn't bother, it's wasting their time and giving them over-inflated views of their own self-worth. OP, where is your son at school? Last edited by: Mapmaker on Thu 9 Jun 11 at 12:39
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New Thu 9 Jun 11 13:10
Choosing University. - Bromptonaut
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I can kind of see where you're coming from but I don't think a degree in a generic subject, whether art or science, is substantively worthless if its not from Oxbridge or London. Not to say there are not far too many courses and awards but the bar is still pretty high even at the better of the former Polys (Leeds Met, Sheffield Hallam) never mind Russell Grp. If you choose to pursue a particular career then a degree in a relevant discipline is going to be mandated. Daughter's young man is presently at Southampton doing Ship Science. He wants to pursue a career in marine design and engineering. He's not going to get there with a non specific degree (though some related engineering subjects might qualify). While the loan is £40-50k the mortgage analogy can be taken too far. AFAIK there are few if any circumstances under which the whole sum can become immediately due and payable. The gradute pays, under the current system, 9% of income over £15k. If not repaid after 25yrs it's written off. More of a partially repayable grant than a loan. I'm left wondering what the percentage would be for a graduate tax. Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 9 Jun 11 at 13:11
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New Thu 9 Jun 11 23:17
Choosing University. - Statistical Outlier
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>> And I'd argue that Southampton, Warwick, Sheffield, Leeds, Glasgow, Liverpool, Belfast, Nottingham, Manchester, Newcastle and >> Cardiff are worth avoiding. You've listed a number of highly regarded universities there, what makes you think they are 'B' grade? (And yes, I went to one of them, and indeed have a PhD from one of them). |
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New Thu 9 Jun 11 12:26
Choosing University. - Bromptonaut
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>> >>How do you go about choosing the right university? >> >> There are only twenty Universities in the UK vaguely worth attending. >> www.russellgroup.ac.uk/our-universities.aspx >> And I'd argue that Southampton, Warwick, Sheffield, Leeds, Glasgow, Liverpool, Belfast, Nottingham, Manchester, Newcastle and >> Cardiff are worth avoiding. I don't know anybody who attended any of them. So that >> leaves you with Cambridge, Oxford, London (four to choose from), Edinburgh, Bristol or Birmingham. Pretty broad list there particualrly without qualification as to subject. Like A I'b be interested in your reasoning. |
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New Thu 9 Jun 11 13:00
Choosing University. - John H
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>> Pretty broad list there particualrly without qualification as to subject. Like A I'b be interested >> in your reasoning. >> If you plan on maximising your chances for your degree leading to a useful (to society and you), good, well paid job, then that is all the reasoning you need. |
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New Thu 9 Jun 11 13:07
Choosing University. - Manatee
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>> If you plan on maximising your chances for your degree leading to a useful (to >> society and you), good, well paid job, then that is all the reasoning you need. >> Because I don't think it's worth £40-50k to go to a B-class University. >> Then you are basically saying that it is not worth going to university for most people, since that is the choice they will have (or wish to make, for any number of reasons). That is clearly not the case, given widespread recruitment criteria for fairly pedestrian jobs that mean many of them are available only to graduates. Of course, if we stopped trying to send the entire population to university then that wouldn't be the case. Somewhat of a conundrum for now. But I think I'd still be advising a reasonably intelligent 18 year old to get to the best place they can that meets their wider needs (location, courses primarily), whether it's in Mapmaker's top 9, top 20, or 21-100+. |
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New Thu 9 Jun 11 14:08
Choosing University. - rtj70
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I too think the problems with university funding are New Labours doing. I think a lot of universities dumbed down to create worthless courses which could be studied by less academically brilliant student. I reference a stupid degree in Dundee above - Comics! The country could not afford to fund so many going to university so students had to borrow. And now we find the country cannot afford to lend the fees to students so they will cut numbers.... If only they had just cut numbers then they might have been able to afford funding the courses in the first place instead of lending large sums of money that are paid back over a very long period of time. I think I disagree with the list of 9 universities but I'd say paying out for a degree anywhere other than those in the Russell's list above will not make sense. I am slightly biased because I went to the Victoria University of Manchester in 1989. But things could have changed since then. |
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New Thu 9 Jun 11 14:46
Choosing University. - Alanovich
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>> If you plan on maximising your chances for your degree leading to a useful (to >> society and you), good, well paid job, then that is all the reasoning you need. Jobs and money are not the sole reason for the existence of Universities. If they were then Mapmaker's "worthwhile" Universities such as Oxford and Cambridge would have abandoned Ancient Greek long ago. There is more to be gained by society from University study than mere employment options. |
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New Thu 9 Jun 11 15:21
Choosing University. - Zero
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>> Jobs and money are not the sole reason for the existence of Universities. It shouldn't be, but when you have to pay an arm and a leg to go there and have to pay it back, and its about the only form of further education available, it soon becomes the raison d'etre |
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New Thu 9 Jun 11 23:22
Choosing University. - Statistical Outlier
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>> >> Jobs and money are not the sole reason for the existence of Universities. >> >> It shouldn't be, but when you have to pay an arm and a leg to >> go there and have to pay it back, and its about the only form of >> further education available, it soon becomes the raison d'etre I really don't understand this. There is now going to be a capped graduate tax, nothing more. Sure, you may decide you don't fancy the idea of an extra tax, but there's nothing to default on, no sums of money will leave your account when you have no income coming in, nothing is secured on anything you own. It will only discourage the stupid, or those smart enough to judge that they would do better without the degree and the associated tax. In fact, I would go further. Those with most to gain are those who will do a degree that will not help their prospects at all. Work in McDonalds for the rest of your life and you'll not pay a penny back and have the debt wiped after 30 years. It's a free education, in other words, as long as that education is worthless. |
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New Thu 9 Jun 11 23:28
Choosing University. - Iffy
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...Work in McDonalds for the rest of your life... Which allows me to repeat a tired old joke. What do you get from a graduate? A Big Mac and large fries. |
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New Fri 10 Jun 11 09:33
Choosing University. - Zero
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I kind of get a bit angry when people bring in the McJobs argument. I have never been served in a McD by anyone who I would consider a graduate. I have been served by younger kids who work hard, in a tough environment, who, without McD's would not have a job. McD's provides something useful, a kind of get up, get a job, get pressured by the boss, be abused by stroppy customers apprenticeship that allows them to progress further into the world of work. |
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New Fri 10 Jun 11 09:44
Choosing University. - Iffy
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...in the McJobs argument... It's not an argument, it's a fact, or a series of them We are churning out thousands of graduates - many from what we would call technical colleges, but are now officially universities. The jobs market is not brilliant, and many firms have cut their graduate entry schemes, if they are recruiting at all. Thus a degree is no longer the firmish guarantee of a degree-type job which it used to be. Put more simply, an increasing number of people are chasing a decreasing number of jobs. |
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New Fri 10 Jun 11 09:54
Choosing University. - Zero
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Which is the point I made here, >> As already said it's about picking a place you want to live as well as >> the course. >Surely, these days, its all about choosing the courses and university that will provide the best >chance of well paid employment thereafter to enable you to pay off your student loans AND have >a life! >If you cant get a reasonable job afterwards, you are in a worse place than those who didn't go to >university and now have work experience. The McJobs have already gone to those who didnt go to university. Those who now have a track record of work, and are taking up the next level of employment. In the current climate, it could even be said, for some, that going to university is a wasted opportunity. |
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New Fri 10 Jun 11 10:23
Choosing University. - Bromptonaut
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>> I kind of get a bit angry when people bring in the McJobs argument. I >> have never been served in a McD by anyone who I would consider a graduate. >> I have been served by younger kids who work hard, in a tough environment, who, >> without McD's would not have a job. >> >> McD's provides something useful, a kind of get up, get a job, get pressured by >> the boss, be abused by stroppy customers apprenticeship that allows them to progress further into >> the world of work. Agree with Zeddo. Miss B has been doing shifts the local McD's for 2 years. She's learned about the world of work and dealing with bosses who are good and bosses who are carp. She's learned to work with people outside the economic and social background of a rural comprehensive. She's also had and resolved the issue of being mildy sexually harrassed by a colleague - a skill women employees unfortunately need to master. Off to Uni in September and will be able to transfer to a local branch in Liverpool or Sheffield. |
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New Fri 10 Jun 11 12:01
Choosing University. - Statistical Outlier
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| Zero, no offence was intended on the McJobs front. As you say, it can be a useful and far more structured career path than most realise. However, no degree is needed to get in, and I have several acquaintances who will never move beyond a junior role and would therefore never need to pay a penny back. |
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New Thu 9 Jun 11 23:28
Choosing University. - RattleandSmoke
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But that is never worthless. The university I went to has a mixed reputation, even more so now when it did ten years ago when I was there. I was one of the better ones and got a high 2:1, missed out on a 1st by 1.5% but that 1.5% equated to an extra months work. My main problem was to get a 3rd you had to put say 10% in, to get a 1st you had to put 100% in. There was just far too big a difference between the lower and higher grades. Too many people graduated with a 3rd who frankly really shouldn't have done. Since then the university has slipped down another 25 places on the league table and is because they had too much of a policy of taking tuition money even if that student was clearly not up to standard. |
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New Thu 9 Jun 11 15:24
Choosing University. - Mapmaker
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>> Jobs and money are not the sole reason for the existence of Universities. If they >> were then Mapmaker's "worthwhile" Universities such as Oxford and Cambridge would >> have abandoned Ancient Greek long ago. What a ridiculous assertion. There is no finer training for the analytical mind than a Classics degree, and (almost) any City employer would agree with me. I do not count a degree in "classical civilisation" within this category. (I read sciences BTW.) |
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New Thu 9 Jun 11 15:35
Choosing University. - Alanovich
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I suspect the "City" employers you have in mind are more interested in the social status of candidates from Oxbridge with Classics degrees than the analytical training the subject may or may not provide. Anyway, the point is that you have dismissed any and all Universities which do not have the status of the top few, without allowing for the fact that some "inferior" establishments provide an education in some subjects which actaully betters that available at your favourite places in those specific subjects. You can't deny that, and it somewhat undermines your initial premis. Which, to return the compliment, was ridiculous. |
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New Fri 10 Jun 11 11:03
Choosing University. - Mapmaker
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Alanović >>I suspect the "City" employers you have in mind are more interested in the social status >>of candidates from Oxbridge with Classics degrees than the analytical training the >>subject may or may not provide. Don't be silly. 471 state secondary schools teach Latin (2007). And the same reasoning applies to History which is regarded by those same employers as a highly analytical subject. They reckon they can teach you enough simple adding up quite easily, but they cannot teach you to think in the fashion that such an education can. (If you want to read Classics and Oriental studies at Oxford then Latin A level is optional anyway.) Alanović >>without allowing for the fact that some "inferior" establishments provide an education in >>some subjects which actaully betters that available at your favourite places in those >>specific subjects. You can't deny that I don't. But I do deny that a degree in oceanography from Bangor (iirc?) is any more use to you than a degree in Welsh from Bangor when it comes to getting a job. Is it really worth 40-50k? Statistical Outlier>>In fact, I would go further. Those with most to gain are those who will >>do a degree that will not help their prospects at all. Work in McDonalds for the rest of >>your life and you'll not pay a penny back and have the debt wiped after 30 years. It's a >>free education, in other words, as long as that education is worthless. I know. That makes me weep more than anything else. Moreover, it makes academics weep too. This Government has got it horribly wrong. It's cost the country more as it's an extra 9k per student p.a. for the universities. And more of that will never be repaid. And if you go overseas then it won't be repaid either. |
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New Fri 10 Jun 11 11:15
Choosing University. - Bromptonaut
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>> I don't. But I do deny that a degree in oceanography from Bangor (iirc?) is >> any more use to you than a degree in Welsh from Bangor when it comes >> to getting a job. Is it really worth 40-50k? That's the bit I don't get. If you want a career in Oceanography than the degree from Bangor is said to be the best there is; it will open doors. If no oceanography work is forthcoming then it's still a good science degree. If nothing else add a PGCE and it'll get you into teaching. I wouldn't dismiss Welsh either. It's a language degree and with devolved government giving more prominence to Welsh there will be jobs to be had. As outlined above the £40-50k never falls fully and immediately payable. The only question is whether you'd get the job as a non graduate and avoid the 'graduate tax'. |
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New Fri 10 Jun 11 11:20
Choosing University. - Mapmaker
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>>If no oceanography work is forthcoming then it's still a good science degree. That's the bit I don't get because no it's not really. It's a degree from Bangor. Last edited by: Mapmaker on Fri 10 Jun 11 at 11:20
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New Fri 10 Jun 11 11:52
Choosing University. - John H
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>> That's the bit I don't get. If you want a career in Oceanography than the >> degree from Bangor is said to be the best there is; it will open doors. >> So claims Alanovich. The Times said something else: "Times league position for Bangor University 54th, Times league position for Oceanography 62nd" I have no idea what that means. The Guardian ratings are here www.guardian.co.uk/education/table/2010/jun/04/university-guide-earth-and-marine-sciences Last edited by: John H on Fri 10 Jun 11 at 11:54
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New Fri 10 Jun 11 11:55
Choosing University. - Alanovich
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>> I have no idea what that means. So why say it? |
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New Fri 10 Jun 11 12:06
Choosing University. - Mapmaker
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>> >> >> I have no idea what that means. >> >> So why say it? It says that 30% of graduates from Bangor in the Earth and Marine sciences have a job within six months of graduating. |
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New Fri 10 Jun 11 12:18
Choosing University. - John H
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>> >> >> I have no idea what that means. >> >> So why say it? >> Just to see if it meant anything to you, but not expecting any more rage. |
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New Fri 10 Jun 11 11:21
Choosing University. - Alanovich
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>> I don't. But I do deny that a degree in oceanography from Bangor (iirc?) is >> any more use to you than a degree in Welsh from Bangor when it comes >> to getting a job. Is it really worth 40-50k? That, of course, depends entirely on what sort of job you want, and on how much economic importance you put on academic study. As I said earlier, there's more to it than that. You may think 40-50 isn't worht it, others may disagree. You are not in posession of the ultimate truth in every individual circumstance. BP need Oceanographers. I expect they're much more interested in graduates in that subject from Bangor than from Cambridge. |
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New Fri 10 Jun 11 11:26
Choosing University. - Mapmaker
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>> BP need Oceanographers. Do they? www.indeed.co.uk/National-Oceanography-jobs-in-England Not a single job there for oceanographers outside academia. >> I expect they're much more interested in graduates in that subject from >> Bangor than from Cambridge. No, they have no vacancies. www.guardian.co.uk/education/table/2011/may/17/university-league-table-2012 Bangor is the 79th "best" University in England. |
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New Fri 10 Jun 11 11:30
Choosing University. - Alanovich
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Well, my mate who had an Oceanography degree from Bangor, who got sponsored by BP to do it, and specifically to do it at Bangor, would disagree. He was then subsequently sponsored by BP again to learn Russian, in order to equip him for the burgeoning oil and gas industry in the former Soviet Union. Real world stuff there. |
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New Fri 10 Jun 11 11:38
Choosing University. - Mapmaker
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>> Well, my mate who had an Oceanography degree from Bangor, who got sponsored by BP >> to do it, and specifically to do it at Bangor, would disagree. He was then >> subsequently sponsored by BP again to learn Russian, in order to equip him for the >> burgeoning oil and gas industry in the former Soviet Union. >> >> Real world stuff there. >> You obviously missed my "plan B" in my first post. The difference between doing accountancy at Lancaster with an EY job at the end of it and doing Whatever at Lancaster just 'cos it's a degree is exactly the same. www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?v=e&t=6666&m=148355 |
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New Fri 10 Jun 11 11:41
Choosing University. - Alanovich
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| So how do you square your assertion that there are only 9 (iirc) Universites worth going to, with the fact that major corporations are happy to use those outside your top 9? |
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New Fri 10 Jun 11 12:01
Choosing University. - John H
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>> You obviously missed my "plan B" in my first post. The difference between doing accountancy >> at Lancaster with an EY job at the end of it and doing Whatever at >> Lancaster just 'cos it's a degree is exactly the same. >> Lancaster rated 7th www.guardian.co.uk/education/table/2011/may/17/university-league-table-2012 |
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New Fri 10 Jun 11 11:40
Choosing University. - Zero
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>> Real world stuff there. He went there on company sponsorship - completely different. Ask him how many new oceanographers BP have employed in the last two years. |
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New Fri 10 Jun 11 11:44
Choosing University. - Alanovich
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This is not the point, Z. The point is that many Universities outside MM's top 9 are providing degrees in worthwhile, specialised subjects, at a better standard than those in the Golden 9. The top 9 do not provide everything, and MM's assertion that they're the only ones worth attending is clearly nonsense. |
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New Fri 10 Jun 11 11:54
Choosing University. - Zero
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>> This is not the point, Z. The point is that many Universities outside MM's top >> 9 are providing degrees in worthwhile, specialised subjects, at a better standard than those in >> the Golden 9. That is the point. Oceanography is far to specialised, and is worthwhile only to a few employers. MM is talking about the big corporates, who see 100's of thousands of applications every year, and where a degree from a good university will win out. Say you are Ernst and Young. You have 1000 jobs, 100,000 applications, all with good passes in maths. A 10th of them are from top universities. Where are the other 90,000 applications going? |
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New Fri 10 Jun 11 11:57
Choosing University. - Mapmaker
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>> This is not the point, Z. The point is that many Universities outside MM's top >> 9 are providing degrees in worthwhile, specialised subjects, at a better standard than those in >> the Golden 9. That is beyond doubt. The question that needs answering is "What use is my degree once I've got it". >> The top 9 do not provide everything, and MM's assertion that they're the only ones >> worth attending is clearly nonsense. You still haven't read my "plan B" in my first post here, have you. If you're going to argue with me at least have the courtesy to digest my position rather than put words into my mouth as you are doing here. My assertion is if you are sponsored and have a job at the end, then you can go to the University of the East End (yes it does exist) and read Pie and Mash studies (I presume it doesn't exist). |
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New Fri 10 Jun 11 12:03
Choosing University. - Alanovich
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| I've read your Plan B thing, it doesn't relate to the point I'm trying to make. I guess you're just not getting what I'm saying so I'll leave it there. |
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New Fri 10 Jun 11 11:45
Choosing University. - Bromptonaut
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>> Bangor is the 79th "best" University in England. No it isn't. It's not in England at all!! |
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New Fri 10 Jun 11 11:59
Choosing University. - Mapmaker
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>> >> Bangor is the 79th "best" University in England. >> >> No it isn't. It's not in England at all!! >> My bad! Oops! |
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New Fri 10 Jun 11 12:05
Choosing University. - Zero
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| Mappy did Sciences, not Geography. |
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New Fri 10 Jun 11 12:21
Choosing University. - rtj70
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| I wonder if he did it in the top 9 list though? Although times have changed. |
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New Thu 9 Jun 11 15:32
Choosing University. - John H
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>> Jobs and money are not the sole reason for the existence of Universities. If they >> were then Mapmaker's "worthwhile" Universities such as Oxford and Cambridge would have abandoned Ancient Greek >> long ago. >> >> There is more to be gained by society from University study than mere employment options. >> Your mind has been corrupted/washed by NuLab brainwashing in vogue since 1997. |
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New Fri 10 Jun 11 11:41
Choosing University. - RattleandSmoke
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I know somebody that did a so called mickey mouse degree at Bangor, he is now doing masters at Oxford (the real one, but the 'Brookes College' fake. Out of my friends at university Me:- 2:1 Running my own business, ok don't make much more than McJob but at least I enjoy it. Walked into a part time job in Dixon's purely because of my degree, and done other temporary jobs as well. Friend 1 - 2:2 - Now an RAF officer, his degree meant he fast tracked his training and his position will be a technical one. He is already been told he is likely to get promotion because he has impressed so much - surely some of then skills were learnt at university? Friend 2 (not on my course but I know him well) 2:1 - Couldn't get a job in broadcasting so is now training to be a teacher. Friend 3 (3rd) shouldn't have really passed, now living in France as a chalet girl. University was perhaps wasted on her. Friend 4 (3rd) now training to be a manager at Tesco. Friend 5 - (2:2) Should have done better but he was lazy, he is now part time IT support on a self employed basis (he for another company and picks and chooses what jobs he does) and works full time in Tesco. He has had better jos but the job market meant he lost his job twice when the companies he worked for closed. Then there is my sister, did a mickey mouse degree at Manchester but got a 3rd, got a job as an admin assistant on 12k a year, within a year she was promoted to a data analyst and is now on 31k a year. A degree now is unlikely to get you 40k jobs but it makes it easier to get jobs in the first place. I remember applying for a CSS job in my second year of university, a lot of Manchester undergrads applied, but in the two hour interview I was asked to write a basic CSS and XHTML page on the write board,. Out of the 10 people interviewed I was the only one form lowly Salford, I was the one that got the job. |
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New Fri 10 Jun 11 11:48
Choosing University. - Zero
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>> Walked into a part time job in Dixon's purely because of >> my degree, My lad walked out of school with poor passes, walked straight into dixons and talked himself into a full time job because he wore a suit. |
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New Fri 10 Jun 11 11:50
Choosing University. - Alanovich
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| But he didn't do that in an area of high unemployment. |
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New Fri 10 Jun 11 12:36
Choosing University. - Zero
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>> But he didn't do that in an area of high unemployment. Neither did rats when he did it. |
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New Fri 10 Jun 11 12:39
Choosing University. - Alanovich
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| Eh? Were the mills and mines still open? |
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New Fri 10 Jun 11 12:43
Choosing University. - Zero
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| The City of Manchester, like London, is rarely affected by rampant unemployment. |
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New Fri 10 Jun 11 11:59
Choosing University. - John H
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>> I was the only one form lowly Salford, >> 109th out of 119 here www.guardian.co.uk/education/table/2011/may/17/university-league-table-2012 |
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New Fri 10 Jun 11 15:49
Choosing University. - RattleandSmoke
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I know and its slipped so badly over the past ten years. It is a shame because it does have some very good research departments but it suffers from high drop out rates which badly affect the scores. It tends to draw people in from the local area who cannot afford to move out (like myself) and that means people struggle more financially. Was around the 60 mark when I applied, but back then there was only about 105 places in the table. The 1996 merger with Salford HE college didn't help matters much either. My dixons job over 300 applied for 10 posts. I got one of them. Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Fri 10 Jun 11 at 15:50
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New Fri 10 Jun 11 12:26
Choosing University. - PeterS
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>> There are only twenty Universities in the UK vaguely worth attending. >> www.russellgroup.ac.uk/our-universities.aspx >> And I'd argue that Southampton, Warwick, Sheffield, Leeds, Glasgow, Liverpool, Belfast, Nottingham, Manchester, Newcastle and >> Cardiff are worth avoiding. I don't know anybody who attended any of them. So that >> leaves you with Cambridge, Oxford, London (four to choose from), Edinburgh, Bristol or Birmingham. Personally I went to Bristol, so have no axe to grind ;-) but that does sound like a rather broad generalisation. I have a few people reporting to me, all in professional roles; they're in their twenties and earn reasonable money - certainly more than the 'cost' of a degree mentioned above. One went to Southampton, one Liverpool and one Warwick IIRC. Though there's also one guy who didn't go to university at all; he's a couple of years older though... When I'm recruiting, the university they went to is of little relevance; I'm more interested in what they've achieved since leaving... Peter |
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New Fri 10 Jun 11 12:48
Choosing University. - rtj70
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| I've been involved in recruitment a couple of times for my employer. The one that made me smile though was the person that mentioned on their CV the badges they got in the Scouts and the work they had done for Chuckie Chicken. I kid you not. This was for a job in IT. He didn't get a job but we did give him a fair chance in the interview. |
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New Fri 10 Jun 11 16:03
Choosing University. - Mapmaker
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>> Personally I went to Bristol, so have no axe to grind ;-) but that does >> sound like a rather broad generalisation. I have a few people reporting to me, all >> in professional roles; they're in their twenties and earn reasonable money - certainly more than >> the 'cost' of a degree mentioned above. One went to Southampton, one Liverpool and one >> Warwick IIRC. Though there's also one guy who didn't go to university at all; he's >> a couple of years older though... >> >> When I'm recruiting, the university they went to is of little relevance; I'm more interested >> in what they've achieved since leaving... I know, with lots of similar stories out there it's amazing that anybody ever thought that it was sensible to increase the numbers going to university. Of course it's a good way of keeping down the unemployment numbers. |
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New Fri 10 Jun 11 17:41
Choosing University. - Iffy
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I'm surprised no one has mentioned Durham in the 'handful of good ones' category. The Guardian rates it quite highly, and they certainly rate themselves quite highly. That nice cricketer chap, the captain, Strauss, went there. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Strauss |
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New Fri 10 Jun 11 17:45
Choosing University. - Mapmaker
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| Good point. St Andrews too. |
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New Fri 10 Jun 11 17:50
Choosing University. - Iffy
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...Good point... Another, hopefully good, point. My understanding is that it is preferable to get a good degree at a university that is well-regarded for your subject, rather than go to Oxbridge just because you can. Sunderland University is poor by most measures, but I'm told the exception is pharmacy which is highly thought of. I believe another one is law at Northumbria. Last edited by: Iffy on Fri 10 Jun 11 at 17:52
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New Mon 13 Jun 11 10:12
Choosing University. - Alanovich
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>> My understanding is that it is preferable to get a good degree at a university >> that is well-regarded for your subject, rather than go to Oxbridge just because you can. Which is precisely what I was trying to say all along. Thank you. |
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New Mon 13 Jun 11 10:33
Choosing University. - Mapmaker
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>> >> My understanding is that it is preferable to get a good degree at a >> university >> >> that is well-regarded for your subject, rather than go to Oxbridge just because you >> can. >> >> Which is precisely what I was trying to say all along. Thank you. >> PROVIDED you end up in a vocational career based on that subject. |
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New Mon 13 Jun 11 10:58
Choosing University. - henry k
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>>My understanding is that it is preferable to get a good degree at a university that is well-regarded for your subject, rather than go to Oxbridge just because you can. >> My understanding was to aim for Oxbridge and emerge with a reasonable 2:1 and most importantly a little black book stuffed with contact details. |
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New Mon 13 Jun 11 11:59
Choosing University. - Iffy
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...and most importantly a little black book stuffed with contact details... Useful, although probably not as useful as it used to be. The country is more of a meritocracy than it has ever been. And you can get contacts from going to other universities. I don't suppose going to Durham did Andrew Strauss's cricketing ambitions any harm. |
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New Fri 10 Jun 11 17:51
Choosing University. - rtj70
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The list was for England wasn't it? So St Andrews not in it. Durham for the right subject should have been. But we're back to subject. I went to Manchester in 1989 and for some subjects it was well rated and probably still is. No study of comics as far as I know. Higher education went wrong when a previous (conservative government probably) let old style polytechnics become universities. And since then technical colleges. There used to be a hierarchy of higher education establishments for a good reason. And a good poly could be better than a poor uni for sure. And poly's tended to have vocational courses. I know of someone that is probably on over £200pa who went to a poly. And so is his wife. |
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New Sat 11 Jun 11 18:42
Choosing University. - Dutchie
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Our daughter studied in Leeds Metropolitan Unie. She is now a CPN mental health nurse we did support her and I am glad she got her degree with honours. Being employed by BP many years I have met many graduates who where let loose to make many decisions on the running of the plant which wasted a lot of money by not listening to the shop floor workforce.Common sense and degree don't always go together. Good education is inportant and support from parents is essential but it isn't the end and be all. I found more than a few graduates could be arrogant and condecending to the people on the shop floor without any reason. |
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New Sun 12 Jun 11 13:21
Choosing University. - zippy
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Dutchie. That is awful behaviour (not you, the grads). I visited a factory a few years ago where there was a Phd on the factory floor, no joke, it was a metal finishers and he was responsible for getting the chemicals just right for the very expensive application. Come knocking off time, he had a pint of something warm and brown down at the local with the rest of the workers and being a southerner I had a 1664. No one would dare give him any trouble and he was a real gent, in all senses of the word. All of the most profitable manufacturers that I have visited, the management knew the workers by christian name and chatted on equal terms when touring the factory. I am always wary of businesses that I visit where this is not the norm, as from experiance it is a sign that all is not well. Son has a shortlist now: Oxford, Cambridge, Birmingham, Nottingham and Southampton. Of course he will put just one of the Oxbridge two on his UCAS applications. He may add one or two more - but that is all. Many thanks for all your input! |
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New Sun 12 Jun 11 19:20
Choosing University. - Number_Cruncher
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Before last September, when I changed jobs, I had worked for 6 years at Birmingham University. The campus is a really nice place to be 0 it's quite green, and the buildings are the very definition of a "red brick" institution. People tend to be surprised, because they don't expect such pleasant surroundings. I found that the library holdings were excellent, and perhaps more importantly, the library subscriptions to electronic journals were absolutely first class, and the electronic systems were well set up, and nearly seamless in operation. As I mentioned in another thread, Birmingham do take the provision of computing facilities quite seriously. While the cluster is not directly relevant to undergraduate work, the software provided on undergrad PCs was good. For example, for a satellite design module I taught on, we had ESA standard thermal analysis tools, industry standard CAD tools, and an extremely specialised [and expensive!] software tool to design the launch, orbit, and transfer trajectories. As Birmingham has its own railway station, getting there couldn't be easier. Here ends the advert! |
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New Sun 12 Jun 11 23:10
Choosing University. - smokie
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| Well I'd second NC's vote for Brum, my youngest graduated from B'ham a couple of years back and loved it there. it's a vibrant city, easy to get to, she found the course good (nursing) and has now set up home in B'ham. |
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New Mon 13 Jun 11 10:32
Choosing University. - Mapmaker
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| Zippy. What is your son expecting to read? And what sort of school is he at? |
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