From my knowledge on reading posts here and from highway code etc....
We all should know that under no circumstances should we go through a red traffic light. Even if we have the fire brigade or ambulance behind us. They should wait patiently till the lights change and we can move out of the way safely. They should not force us to go through the red lights.
If you do go through a red light and is caught by the red light traffic camera you will be prosecuted. It has happened regardless of the picture showing an emergency vehicle behind you.
However only the police can instruct you to go through red traffic lights. This is allowed according to the highway code.
My question is that for the police to instruct you to go through a red traffic lights can they do it from inside their car or do they have to come to you and instruct you to move? Do you have to take their badge number or car reg number in case you are caught on the camera and have to attend court?
Personally i will move to let them pass when i know if there is no red light camera.
What are your opinions?
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This has been done to death on this forum not that long ago.
FWIW I wont cross a line, where there is a camera.
To hard to prove you moved over for a valid reason, when the letter comes through your letterbox weeks later.
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...My question is that for the police to instruct you to go through a red traffic lights can they do it from inside their car?...
I don't see how.
The camera issues the ticket just the same.
Even if you could find the coppers who ran the light with you, could one of them make a statement to say yours was the car they wanted to move?
I don't think they could remember which cars moved aside for them at which junction, even if they wanted to.
While it makes sense to let the police pass if you can, it makes no sense to commit a motoring offence to do it.
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>>>> Personally i will move to let them pass when i know if there is no
>> red light camera.
>>
>> What are your opinions?
>>
Has something happened that you would like to tell us about, wazza?
You haven't posted since January and then you start two posts in the early hours on a similar subject.
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As well as two posts on HJ on exactly the same subjects too.
Pat
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...As well as two posts on HJ on exactly the same subjects too...
I see they are still prattling on about this place, and hobby has now said he wasn't hobby.
They normally only get about one or two posts a week in their general forum, but talking about C4P has brought a few out to play.
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>> The camera issues the ticket just the same.
>> Even if you could find the coppers who ran the light with you, could one
>> of them make a statement to say yours was the car they wanted to move?
>> I don't think they could remember which cars moved aside for them at which junction,
>> even if they wanted to.
I've never had to go through a red light in such circumstances, but if the need arose, I would take the registration details of the police car and try to resolve the situation before a ticket could be issued. I would be confident that common sense would prevail.
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...I would take the registration details of the police car and try to resolve the situation before a ticket could be issued. I would be confident that common sense would prevail...
The police officer will almost certainly be unable to say: "Car reg no: CLK SEC1 moved out of my way."
I'm not criticising the copper for that.
Driving at speed, he could not be expected to remember such details.
All he could say is he was on an emergency call on that route at the time.
What the police officer was doing does not absolve you of your responsibilities under the various road traffic acts.
So even if the copper did say: "CLK SEC1 helpfully moved aside to let us past," you are still liable for running the red light.
I agree that common sense should prevail, but increasingly it doesn't, so it cannot be relied on.
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Iffy
I'm saying that I would take the registration details of the police vehicle. I certainly wouldn't expect them to remember mine. I'd be confident(ish) that a word in the right ear, before the notice was issued, would get me off the hook.
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I will always move, safely, to allow movement of emergency vehicles, and if need be plead my case in court. If I get photographed, so will any emergency services vehicle, as proof. If the local madj wont accept it can be appealed.
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...If I get photographed, so will any emergency services vehicle, as proof...
Not always - as our very own Humph found out in London a few months ago.
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Go thru a light to assist but break the law or stay put and be reviled by the public. Not an easy choice.
Last edited by: Perky Penguin on Mon 9 May 11 at 09:00
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>> >>>> Personally i will move to let them pass when i know if there is
>> no
>> >> red light camera.
>> >>
>> >> What are your opinions?
>> >>
>>
>>
>> Has something happened that you would like to tell us about, wazza?
>>
>> You haven't posted since January and then you start two posts in the early hours
>> on a similar subject.
>>
Nothing like this happened to me. Often do wonder what i would do if i am in that situation.
The two posts are totally different. Been meaning to ask but never got around to posting it.
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If I got a £60 penalty/fine for going through a red light to get out of the way of an ambulance, I would look on it as doing my bit to help someone who was in urgent need of medical attention.
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>> If I got a £60 penalty/fine for going through a red light to get out
>> of the way of an ambulance, I would look on it as doing my bit
>> to help someone who was in urgent need of medical attention.
>>
Hmm I'm sure you would.
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>> >> If I got a £60 penalty/fine for going through a red light to get
>> out
>> >> of the way of an ambulance, I would look on it as doing my
>> bit
>> >> to help someone who was in urgent need of medical attention.
>> >>
>>
>> Hmm I'm sure you would.
>>
What about people who risk their life to help someone in trouble? All I would be risking would be £60. Big deal.
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And three points. And increased insurance premium. And victims surcharge. And costs if you turn up at court.
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Can you be reported for obstructing a police officer in his duty if you dont move out of the way and stay put until the lights turn green?
I think I would invite the police officer to move my car through the lights if he wanted to get past.
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...Can you be reported for obstructing a police officer in his duty if you dont move out of the way and stay put until the lights turn green?...
Good question, they could report you, but I think they would struggle to make it stick.
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>>>> >> If I got a £60 penalty/fine for going through a red light to get
>> out
>> >> of the way of an ambulance, I would look on it as doing my
>> bit
>> >> to help someone who was in urgent need of medical attention.
>> >>
>>
>> Hmm I'm sure you would.
>>
What about people who risk their life to help someone in trouble? All I would be risking would be £60. Big deal
And how would you feel if it was a false alarm? Or a driver on training course with no patient waiting?
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When I was taught to drive, she taught me to always leave room to maneuver even when at the head of a traffic light queue and ive always sat around 5ft from the line so I can 'go somewhere' if I need to.
In my experience though emergency vehicles tend to forget trying to push through the stationary traffic and just dive down the wrong side of the road and around with some caution which is still quicker than waiting for a collective to find somewhere to move to.
On a point of being asked to break the law, no, I wouldnt, traffic light cameras are absolutes, so my treatment of them will be the same. If they were somehow disabled by an on call emergency vehicle then that would be fine, but they arent which means the law still stands.
For every copper who says yeah thats fine to cross the line for us, there will be a jobsworth colleague waiting in the wings to hand out a ticket or some muffin in the camera partnership who is waiting to serve you. No thanks, those tickets are expensive for ordinary people.
Last edited by: FoR on Mon 9 May 11 at 09:20
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This is one of those arguments that is almost totally theoretical but for some reason people seem to like to get wound up about. In more than 40 years driving I have never been in this situation and I doubt that many have. As has been said emergency vehicle drivers are adept at squeezing through small gaps or using the other side of the road if necessary.
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In more than 40 years driving
>> I have never been in this situation and I doubt that many have.
You need to live and drive in London and the burbs. Its common place and the blues and twos would get nowhere without a lot of help from the locals.
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Actually have spent a lot of time driving in and around London both in the congeston zone and in the suburbs. Norwich in the rush hour has its moments. Both the main fire station and police station are in the city centre as used to be the hospital . Often have needed to move to one side of road to allow vehicles past but needed to to through a red traffic light, never. As I say a virtually theoretical problem. Most roads are wide enough to let an emergency vehicle through if the traffic move to the side and in congested situations emergency vehicles often use the other side of the road.
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. As I
>> say a virtually theoretical problem.
Well "in theory" I have to do it two or three times a year.
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Humph posted a while ago about receiving a ticket for easing over the line to let a three 9s vehicle through.
So that's another one to add to the virtual theory.
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"Well "in theory" I have to do it two or three times a year."
You are an exceedingly unlucky chap then.
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No, just have to travel along routes used by emergency services, and with tricky traffic light junctions in heavy trafficked suburban areas.
And honestly, I have driven in Norwich, it really doesn't come close. For example, yesterday afternoon ( a sunday) it took me 40 minutes to travel the 1/2 mile (and 8 sets of lights) of Putney high street.
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I regularly have to pull over for ambulances. But then I do live on the same road as a major A&E unit. I do see a lot of drivers in their own little world - a whole line of 20+ cars move to the left to let the ambulance through, leaving one person who isn't checking their mirrors/hasn't heard the sirens, and doesn't understand what everyone is doing. One this week pulled out to overtake the line of cars without checking his mirrors and caused the ambulance to take avoiding action.
Last edited by: Tigger on Mon 9 May 11 at 10:50
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...I regularly have to pull over for ambulances...
Tigger,
Now you have a convertible, you will hear the sirens before other road users.
First time this happened to me in the CC3, I pulled to one side and the driver behind overtook me, scowling as he went past.
He pulled in a few yards later when he heard the siren.
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Good point Iffy - I hadn't thought of that!
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...Good point Iffy - I hadn't thought of that!...
You will also hear snatches of conversation from pedestrians which can be distracting until you get used to it.
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Streatham High street was pretty awful yesterday too and Croydon wasn't much better which is where I was driving yesterday. I do know what driving in London is all about and of course Norwich is nothing like it for the sheer scale of the traffic, even though it can become totally gridlocked in rush hour and has its fair share of awkward junctions and the like.
Yes you need to be aware of emergency vehicles and move over where appropriate but have I ever been in a situation where I was impeding an emergency vehicle's progress and the only way he could get passed was by me going through a red light? No not as far as I can recall.
I am sure it must happen but I just don't think it's much of an issue in real life judging by my experience .
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One treats red lights as give way signs since they rephased them to cause congestion instead of to reduce it.
Every time One approaches lights, look for a red light camera, eventually it will form part of your driving programme and will require no effort.
If there is a camera, stop short of the line such that you can pull forward and to the side.
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Back in Leeds a few years back I watched a fire engine very carefully nudge the car stopped at the red light forward through the junction until he could get past. Couldn't decide whether to laugh or have sympathy!
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For a police officer to direct people though a red light they'd need to be stood up, in the middle of the road, flapping their arms about, formally 'directing traffic'. That system is not catered for sat in a police car.
If people get a ticket for going through a red light in circs described, it's because of the virtually automated system of red light cameras.
The system of Fixed Penalty Notices is designed so that if you disagree with them, you ask for a court hearing.
If I ever got one in those circs i'd contact the issuing authority, ask to speak with a manager, not just a clerk and explain my rationale, stating it's not in the public interest cost wise, to go to court and have the driver (me) come up with a perfectly reasonable and rationale explanation as to why the offence occurred, plead Guilty with extenuating circumstances..and for the Magistrates to find you Guilty, but give you no penalty i.e. an Absolute Discharge.
The likelihood is the manager of the unit would cancel the ticket. If not you'd go to court and come away with nowt.
The only reason it ever becomes a problem is when people pay the tickets without fighting because it's easier and less hassle.
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A good response, WP. I was hoping you would post.
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>> The only reason it ever becomes a problem is when people pay the tickets without
>> fighting because it's easier and less hassle.
>>
That's fine, except for the fact that some of us are unable to make private phones calls during working hours, and trying to make contact during lunch is always an uphill task.
Then there's the possible need to take time off work to go to court and plead your case.
Its a lot easier to try and allow manoeuvring space, as others have mentioned, or if that's a no go, then sitting it out, until the lights change.
There is, of course, always in the back of ones mind, that the blues and twos, could be running for a member of your family, or a friend.....
Last edited by: swiss tony on Mon 9 May 11 at 22:51
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Or someone else holding up the blues and twos on the way to your family...
You have toilets or tea breaks, you have a mobile.
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Only a fool would rely on the common sense and discretion of a council employee.
And only a bigger fool would rely on the common sense of a magistrate.
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Perhaps you mean Some council employees and Some magistrates, Iffy?
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...Perhaps you mean Some council employees and Some magistrates, Iffy?...
Perhaps I do, but the problem is you don't know which 'some' will be dealing with your case.
Getting the ticket quashed at source would be the hardest part.
You are asking a public servant to put his head above the parapet.
Which is something they are taught not, ever, to do.
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>> Only a fool would rely on the common sense and discretion of a council employee.
>>
Like most things in life, it usually depends on how you speak to them. Some can be difficult, most are not.
>> And only a bigger fool would rely on the common sense of a magistrate.
>>
I know some Magistrates, one's a good friend. You'd be hard pushed to find ANYONE with more common sense than him. If you're referring to the quite strict guidelines they have to adhere to, then that's another thing...usually initiated by a politician.
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>> Like most things in life, it usually depends on how you speak to them. Some
>> can be difficult, most are not.
Therein lies the rub. Some are difficult, therefore one is not in a position to rely on their good sense.
Tell me, in your experience, do most drivers go through red lights when faced with a set of blue flashing lights.
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>> You have toilets or tea breaks, you have a mobile.
>>
...or can write a letter
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>> >>>> >> If I got a £60 penalty/fine for going through a red light to
>> get
>> >> out
>> >> >> of the way of an ambulance, I would look on it as doing
>> my
>> >> bit
>> >> >> to help someone who was in urgent need of medical attention.
>> >> >>
>> >>
>> >> Hmm I'm sure you would.
>> >>
>>
>> What about people who risk their life to help someone in trouble? All I would
>> be risking would be £60. Big deal
>>
>> And how would you feel if it was a false alarm? Or a driver on
>> training course with no patient waiting?
>>
I would give it the benefit of the doubt. And I'm only talking about going sufficiently over the line until there was enough room for the ambulance to pass, not going completely across a cross roads on red.
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Bit of a coincidence yesterday. After reading this thread, I was out driving and came to a junction with 3 lanes going straight on, and a separate right turn lane, with its own traffic light.
The light was red as I approached in the right urn lane and there was one car already stopped at the light. A police car was coming up behind with its lights and siren on, and apparently wanting to turn right, so I stopped (about a couple of car lengths before the stationary car), and the police car moved into the space, and behind the stationary car.
By this time the right turn light had turned green, but the driver didn't move off. Instead she just stood still at the light, with the police car stuck behind her.
It took her a good 30 seconds to actually move off, and then the police car go through.
I reckon that she was just completely panicked by the police car behind her, and probably wasn't sure what to do. I suppose she might even, in her panic, have thought that he was trying to pull her over.
I pulled level with her after we had turned right, and just got a glimpse of her. She seemed very young and, as I say, probably just panicked, but it's interesting how people can suddenly freeze like that.
Last edited by: SteelSpark on Tue 10 May 11 at 13:34
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I call it the stoat and rabbit reaction.
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>>
>>I suppose she might even, in her panic, have
>> thought that he was trying to pull her over.
>>
Supposing that was his intention, how would his indications differ?
I had that dilema last weekend. I was driving the firm's van, a bit cautiously because I am not a van driver, when a police car came up behind flashing its lights at me. My first thought was guilt, because perhaps my driving looked suspicious, but then he pulled past and chased off after someone else.
It was hard to tell whether or not he was indicating, because he was flashing his headlights as well as the blue lights.
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>> >>I suppose she might even, in her panic, have
>> >> thought that he was trying to pull her over.
>>
>> Supposing that was his intention, how would his indications differ?
I would imagine that he wouldn't have his sirens on.
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...how would his indications differ?...
He would have cut in front of her and slammed on the anchors.
That he vanished into the distance at speed is an indication he was looking after somebody else.
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When to go through Red Traffic Lights? - swiss tony
