A car in front of me today blatantly went through a red light and it prompted me to think.
The 4 above are all traffic offences, I would never drink drive, I would never run a red light and I always wear a seatbelt. But I regularly drive faster than the speed limit.
Clunk click was a huge advertising/awareness campaign.
Drink driving is still a huge campaign.
I have never seen anything about red lights (other than railway crossings)
Speeding has huge campaigns around it as well.
And, I don't think I am unique in this "outlook".
So why do we all sit patiently at red lights until they change, even though we can see there is nothing coming etc, but many of us are prepared to make a decision to speed?
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>> And, I don't think I am unique in this "outlook".
>>
>> So why do we all sit patiently at red lights until they change, even though
>> we can see there is nothing coming etc,
Errr I dont. There are several set of traffic lights near me, in various circumstances, that have excellent visibility If they are red, and there is no traffic (yes I check for pedestrians as well) , I ignore them.
And yes I speed. And I clunk click.
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>>Errr I dont.
Now why does that not surprise me!!! :)
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There is currently a spate of roadworks with temporary traffic lights on my way to work. First thing in the morning they are usually broken down, and stuck permanently on red. I ignore them if there is no oncoming traffic, as per the HC "If the traffic lights are not working, proceed with caution".
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I ignore small road work traffic lights if it is an ungodly hour and I can see that it is clear (they are usually broken anyway). Never on full time lights, though.
I always clunk click, never drink-drive, and of course I never speed :-)
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The lights were out at Carfin cross for a while there, no queues, everyone behaving.
Only problem would be for pedestrians. That news article the other week about switching to flashing ambers overnight seems a good step in the right direction for a lot of quieter cross roads and the like.
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Skoda, don't know if you ever venture down Holytown Rd towards Bellshill but there are temp traffic lights there that I am having ongoing email correspondence with the council on!
Usual story, no work being done and traffic flows better when the lights aren't working!
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There's been temp traffic lights at one of 2 points on that road since i was a nipper :-)
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"Errr I dont. There are several set of traffic lights near me, in various circumstances, that have excellent visibility If they are red, and there is no traffic (yes I check for pedestrians as well) , I ignore them. "
Well Zero, that would take some explaining if there were some plod parked up nearby ! i dont think they would accept " well it was clear "
Temp traffic lights are no excuse iether, my pal was done for going through a red set at 3am in the morning
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Indeed, the visibility argument extends to plod and camera spotting.
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I've been had for speeding, always wear a seatbelt, never drink and drive, and have never felt the need to jump a red light, unless it's out of order.
I agree that temporary traffic lights at 1am on a Sunday can be a pain in the butt.
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I don't drink drive because I think it is dangerous
I always wear set belt as it saves lives (which is a proven fact)
I never go through red light (once went by mistake as could not see light properly in bright sunlight) because I think it is dangerous and can cause serious accident.
I do sometimes* drive over 70 MPH on motorways or ~ 40 MPH in a 30 MPH limit road at 3 AM in morning. Because I think speed limits do not take account of the context.
I find it really confusing that penalties of speeding and going through red light are same!
* = fuel price rise has forced me to drive slower than 70 MPH nowadays
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>> I have never seen anything about red lights (other than railway crossings)
There was a 'don't be an amber gambler' campaign sometime in the past, but it does seem strange they don't do more. The number of blatant red light runners at busy junctions surprises me.
Last edited by: Focus on Tue 5 Apr 11 at 13:10
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• I don’t drink and drive – its not clever, or cool (or whatever)
• I don’t jump red lights, unless I’ve been sat at some temp lights, that are obviously broken (stuck on red at both ends).
• I always wear a seatbelt Im very much attached to my face and don’t want it left on the windscreen (choosing not to wear one is not big or clever)
• I will do up to 80mph on the motorway especially if I’m travelling on a empty road at night… and I’m not perfect I have gone over a specified speed limit but try my hardest at all times to obey the speed limits, whether or not I think its safe to exceed them.
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Dare I ask this?
What about red lights when there is a panda car behind with lights & sirenh who sounds his horn as well? Would you or wouldn't you?
Saw someone do this on Saturday - he did, don't know if I would have, although I would for an ambulance or fire engine on a shout
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God you're all so boring. Not a single red-blooded criminal among you. Tchah!
:o}
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>> Not a single red-blooded criminal among you.
But Zero's admission that he blinds through red lights under certain circumstances does rehabilitate him to some extent. Everyone else seems to be a damn goody-goody though.
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On the premis that a police car might get to the scene of an accident before an ambulance and thereby save a life, I'd run a red to get out of the way of a police car every time.
I'm afraid anyone who would not on the basis that they risk a finaicial penalty or points for doing so needs shooting. I put someone's life ahead of any inconvenience I may experience fighting a theoretical sanction.
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>>I'm afraid anyone who would not on the basis that they risk a finaicial penalty or points for doing so needs shooting. I put someone's life ahead of any inconvenience I may experience fighting a theoretical sanction.
I would do it for certain, if I was certain that the above scenario was the reason for the blue lights.
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>> I would do it for certain, if I was certain that the above scenario was
>> the reason for the blue lights.
>>
But you can't know for certain, which is why you have to so it. Just in case. It's the more humane thing to do.
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>> Dare I ask this?
>>
>> What about red lights when there is a panda car behind with lights & sirenh
>> who sounds his horn as well? Would you or wouldn't you?
>>
I think i would have to, Id hate to think of the consequences of a situation should i have blocked a ambulance, fire engine and the police getting through
Last edited by: Redviper on Tue 5 Apr 11 at 14:45
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I think I probably would too, but for ambulance or fire engine I would do it without hesitation. If it was for a panda car i would have second thoughts afterwards probably. But then if he was on his way to prevent a shooting of someone who had held up a panda car that would be OK.
Last edited by: commerdriver on Tue 5 Apr 11 at 14:53
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I have, several times, for Ambulance, Fire and police. I will gladly accept my day in court to explain the circumstances to the beak if summonsed for it.
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Jumping a red light for an Ambulance or Fire engine may come with a penalty ! if there is a camera fitted and your caught ! be warned. A court appearance didnt help a relative of mine and she will not jump a red light for anyone.
She did no more than cross the line enough for a fire engine to get through !
Also a work collegue got done for one wheel in a bus lane when he moved to the left for an Ambulance trying to pass him by a central island !
So for me moving over or jumping will not be a considered option untill courts decide to allow common sense to prevail ! not something that happens with motoring offences
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I never speed on purpose but I have sometimes done 23/24 in a 20 if its a wide and clear road.
I never ever go through on red and always stop on amber if there is enough time, which is most times.
Always clunk clink
I never drink drive, I calculate the amount of units I have had, then double the amount of hours and then add a half again.
So if I had 7 pints which is say 16 units one can assume 16 hours after I have finished my last drink I am more than save to drive (because of those units would have worn off before my last drink) but I would wait an another 8 just so I know I will be in the clear.
In reality of I have around 8 pints on a Saturday night (£2 a pint) and then won't drive until Monday afternoon.
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Why is 7 pints 16 units? Double it and add 2?
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Each pint is anything from 2 to 2.6 units which I drink. I will typically end up on Carsberg or bitter at the of the night as it is weaker.
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I cannot understand why anyone should be prosecuted for letting an emergency vehicle through a red light. The law is indeed an ass.
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>> I cannot understand why anyone should be prosecuted for letting an emergency vehicle >>through a red light.
Thankfully I have no experience of this as it must be extremely frustrating, but I wonder if, by taking registration details, etc, an early 'phone call might resolve the situation?
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>> Thankfully I have no experience of this as it must be extremely frustrating, but I
>> wonder if, by taking registration details, etc, an early 'phone call might resolve the
>> situation?
Going through a red light is a strict liability offence, so there is no defence available in law for doing it. Your only hope is they choose not to prosecute, but if they do all you can do legally is accept the penalty.
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>> Your only hope is they choose not to prosecute,
Being an optimist, that is exactly what I would expect. Anything less would be totally unreasonable.
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I agree entirely. It's once it gets to court you're probably stuffed, so a judicious head off at the pass is advisable if possible, as you say.
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>> So why do we all sit patiently at red lights until they change, even though
>> we can see there is nothing coming etc, but many of us are prepared to
>> make a decision to speed?
>>
So you have been on a "speed awareness course" haven't you?
If not, then be prepared to answer to answer your question as part of the course.
(The course tutor will tell you the answer if you can't figure it out).
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Not been on a course and can't figure it out!
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>> Not been on a course and can't figure it out!
>>
The clue is in group behaviour. How do you react when you are doing 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 or 70 in the relevant limit zone and you see someone whizz by at 1mph or 5mph or even 10% above the limit? What do you do when you see a driver at red lights ignore the lights even though you know it was perfectly safe to do so on that occasion?
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a,. Depends on the circumstances, if on a motorway not bothered, if causing danger then annoyed at their poor driving
b. post a thread on C4P !!
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Mention of the amber gambler earlier in the thread - here it is.
Dodgy hat or what?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4TDEPP1R9Q
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>> Mention of the amber gambler earlier in the thread - here it is.
Thanks CC - I had a quick look on youtube but couldn't spot it.
A bit different to the hard-hitting approach of modern road safety ads...
Last edited by: Focus on Tue 5 Apr 11 at 18:18
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They missed the "two Kirks" opportunity, or indeed, for those of you who relish the somewhat obscure, the plot of ""The Anti-Matter Man", a brilliant Lost in Space episode. The twins should have been wearing clothes of the opposite colours.
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• I haven’t drunk driven since I was 19 - I was never caught - but wouldn't hesitate to dob someone in for doing it now.
• I don’t jump red lights, although I used to amber gamble if I was driving an empty minicab on a busy weekend night.
• I always wear my seatbelt, it had been the law for 9 years before I learned to drive so I've never known any different.
• I don't speed at all in 30 zones, ever. As a professional driver my licence is pretty valuable to me, and as a tightwad I'm usually watching the fuel gauge the whole time, so I also don't speed in 40/50/60 limits. If I find myself driving alone on a deserted motorway in the middle of the night (as happens about twice a year) then I will sometimes see how fast my car will go :) Not been caught doing that yet either.
As a footnote to the red light thing: I'll always make space for emergency vehicles even if that means bending the usual rules slightly, but then I live in a backwater town in the Midlands. I'd be a lot more reluctant about doing so in the big smoke. And I always make eye contact with the EV driver, they're human too and they appreciate the visual confirmation that you've seen them and are on their side.
Last edited by: Dave_TDCi {P} on Tue 5 Apr 11 at 18:43
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There are certainly newspaper stories of drivers making way for emergency vehicles being prosecuted for jumping reds.
Does it happen often though? Or are these maverick cases or those to which there is more than meets the eye?
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I always thought it was an offence to impede an emergency vehicle.
Move out of the way at a red light and you get done.
The law is an ass.
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>> I always thought it was an offence to impede an emergency vehicle.
No - you ought to move as long as it's safe and legal to do so, but it's not an offence not to do so.
So if you mount the kerb or run a red light, theoretically at least it's you that's in trouble, but if you do nothing and hold up a fire engine with all the sirens going you only have a moral issue to worry about, as well as loss of hearing.
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>> There are certainly newspaper stories of drivers making way for emergency vehicles being prosecuted for
>> jumping reds.
Are there? Anyone got any links?
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Right. Fine. As I thought.
What it doesn't say is whether the driver appealed the ticket. He is free to do so and the report actually gives a quote from the authorities saying that claims such as this would be looked in to.
Are there any stories out there showing an unsuccessful claim against such a ticket? That's the real litmus test so far as I can see.
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I'm not sure you would be able to appeal - on what grounds? As a strict liability offence, you dun it guv. End of.
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From that link above:
"Greater Manchester Casualty Reduction Partnership said emergency vehicle drivers were trained to manoeuvre around other cars.
Spokesman Karen Delaney said: 'If the lights are red you are putting yourself in danger if you go through them.
'You risk getting a ticket but if there is evidence that backs it up that you have manoeuvred on behalf of an emergency vehicle then we will look into it.' "
Let's face it, this sort of fine is only going to arrive on th ebasis of camera evidence. So, if the evidence shows that you were aiding the progress of an emergency vehicle, you can appeal.
So, any stories of unsuccesful appeals out there?
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Ah, you mean appeal to the partnership, not the mags. I see.
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I had wondered about emergency services and me at red lights.
fortunately I have never needed to move my car to allow an emergency vehicle through a red light.
But most of these traffic lights have sensors right near the stop markers at the traffic lights.
what happens if I give plenty of room at the traffic light (say if i need to move forward and to the left to allow emergency vehicles).
Will the traffic light sensor not detect my car and then not change from red ?
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I'm surprised that no-one's pointed out the increasing modern trend of stopping one's car half-way across the white line at traffic lights, then gradually creeping forward till the lights change.
Surely that's still classed as jumping a red light?
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Probably because they've seen cyclists doing it :)
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I think there's a speed element to the red light cameras? They don't trigger for creeping past im fairly sure.
Although what i've just said can't be right, i can't recall seeing a radar detector on the red light cameras.
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One of my friends stopped just over the line marker once and the camera flash was going off every second until he reversed back a little.
So yes, going over the sensor will trigger the camera.
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Some of the first-installed red light cameras were installed outside our office in Brentford. I'm sure that they had two detectors in the road, one just before the stop line and one halfway across the junction - it was always said that they could also determine your speed as a result. But assuming you only crept forward enough to let a vehicle by, and didn't cross the second line, I don';t think the camera would trigger.
Maybe the technology is different these days...
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If it's an absolute offence then appeal may not be the right terminology. The prosecutor has the option not to proceed in the circs or the magistrates could give an absolute discharge.
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Here's a fascinating thread on the subject, with contributions fromprofessionaldrivers:
www.advanced-driving.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=395&start=45
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Our very own Humph received a ticket for nudging over the white line at the lights to make way for an emergency vehicle.
He was done by a camera at a junction in London.
From memory, he said he couldn't be bothered to challenge it.
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Damn.
Before this came up, i would have (if it were clear / safe to do so) moved over a stop line at a red light for blues and twos with no second thought for a camera.
Even considered poking at ID further up in the thread for being a jessie :-) Hypothetical apology to you ID.
Ok so in future i wont break any laws even for blues and twos. Seems utterly barmy and leaves a bad taste in the mouth of the most foul kind.
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I'd still do it every time, Skoda.
I'd rather worry about receiving a penalty which I will probably be able to get the camera partnership to reconsider (open letter, perhaps cc Daily Mail ;-)), than worry about having cost vital seconds in the race to save someone's (perhaps even someone dear to me's) life.
I'll take the attitude that I'm prepared to trust the common sense of my fellow man/woman at the camera partnership, and even if they let me down on that score I'll pay up in the knowledge that what I did was the most considerate and humane course of action. And then I'd make sure the press knew that my appeal to common sense had been turned down, something which it seems has not happened to anyone in this country whatsoever yet - another reason why I'd be happy to take the original course of action and cross the line.
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Absence of evidence <> evidence of absence, as they say.
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>> I'd still do it every time, Skoda.
So would I. And if it came to it, the court case would be colourful. I would try to make sure it was anyway.
Putting your own clean licence above unknown danger to others is totally despicable. Some things simply are more important than others. I don't understand that attitude and I don't like it at all.
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At last we see eye to eye, AC.
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I think there may have been one or two other occasions actually Alanovic...
:o}
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No, after reading the police and IAM views in Alanovic's thread, i see there's no need to put yourself in that position. They're trained to expect it, i assumed they were trained to expect you to scarper.
That being said i always stop with a little wiggle room anyway (in case car in front is a mimser, or breaks down), it's just now i'll have a new use for it.
Last edited by: Skoda on Wed 6 Apr 11 at 14:05
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Skoda, I was trained to play tennis, but I never won (or even qualified for) Wimbledon. There will be many emergency service drivers out there expecting you to move.
But that's not my point, anyway. If I can help get them there more quickly, I will.
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Haha :) I wouldn't advocate sitting like a lemon if in their way. Just what would have previously been an automatic "path of least resistance" move before will now be a less elegant shuffle to one side.
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I would maybe check if there were cameras before moving.
Also remember that 50% of 999 calls are false alarms but not sure how you differentiate whilst sitting at the traffic lights!
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>> I would maybe check if there were cameras before moving.
>> Also remember that 50% of 999 calls are false alarms but not sure how you
>> differentiate whilst sitting at the traffic lights!
So what happens if you sit there with a police car or ambulance or fire engine trying to get past you? You don't move because a lump of dumb steel and plastic with no brain might take a picture of you. Sometimes you have to move because that is reality, real life, the difference between life or death. The camera and the court will be wrong - they are not immune to mistakes you know. Sometime the laws that are made do not work in a certain situation - they get changed willy nilly anyway.
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"Also remember that 50% of 999 calls are false alarms"
And the other 50% are BobbyG's.
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1, I used to occasionally drink/drive as a youngster, but even then thought it was unwise. For many years now that is an absolute no-no and i'm glad, because you do put yourself and others at risk, sometimes great risk, through impaired judgement, but at the time you think you're invincible.
Playing devil's advocate though, is someone on 4 pints of normal strength lager driving from a small village in Ruralshire to home down a country lane..as bad as someone in a city...and my thoughts are 'no'. There are far more hazards in a city.
However, I still think the penalties we have are appropriate and none of us should do it.. because the 4 pints could become 8 pints. So drink/driving is a 'no-no'.
2, Red lights. If you regularly drive in the small hours, red lights can take an age, with no one else there. I strongly think we should have the continental system whereby (for us) you can turn left at a red light. Have I ever done that? Quite possibly.
3, Seat belts. I'm a real nuisance re these. I use them absolutely every time and insist my passengers do, even those in the back (many still don't). Having been to the amount of accidents I have, I would not ever drive without one.
4, Speeding. I drive to the conditions.. having been blessed with some tremendous driver training. Knowing the necessity of having limits in the middle ground somewhere, catering for poor conditions as well as good conditions..AND..the modern way of bureaucrats increasingly dumbing things down more ..then 'yes' I do sometimes speed...however, it is also quite common for me at times to drive below a limit, because something has alerted my radar. I'd argue until the cows come home that this approach is generally perfectly acceptable, as long as I accept that a transgression of the law has consequences and if caught I must accept them (presumably most of the driving population agrees with me looking at the speeds on our motorways, even now when many are in 'economy mode').
I despair at the overly simplistic 'speed kills' propoganda. Inappropriate speed for a given circumstance is what kills.
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Getting sounder and sounder the further you progress Wp.
Of course one has to accept you have a particular, sort of semi-official angle. But I think your views on alcohol, like those of others here, are slightly on the strict side.
Perhaps it's an age thing. Because I have to say it's a very long time since a couple of drinks made me feel invincible, behind the wheel or anywhere else. Almost makes me feel wistful thinking about it... Similarly, it's a very long time since a couple of drinks impaired my ability to drive safely and normally, not enough to be noticeable to anyone including me (and I am a strict judge in my own case). Perhaps there's a small technical impairment, but it's driving for heaven's sake, not brain surgery. Cars are big rough things despite their specious smoothness these days.
Of course I do mean two or three, not five or seven or nine drinks. Those will make one impaired all right. Very long time indeed since I've driven properly impaired like that. But up to the limit... no problemo.
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Speeding v seatbelts v drink driving v red lights - Zero
