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Never had a Ford, always saw them as probably good value, made down to a price etc. Nowadays, they seem to have moved up market and claim their product design and build quality is as good as any. Hmmmm. The other day I was helping a friend load stuff into her newish Focus hatchback. How lightweight the parcel shelf seemed, jumping about as I raised tailgate. My A3 (maybe not fair comparison) was nearby. The Ford parcel shelf must have been at least half the thickness of Audi's. Still built down to what is these days a not very cheap price? It may not have been a just basis on which to judge value but I was not impressed. When I closed the hatch it didn't have that solid sound or feel. Fair comment or not?
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You should see/feel the ones in the latest BMWs - papier mache springs to mind.
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Isn't that the X1, PU?. ISTR that there has been some criticism in the motoring press that there was evidence of some cost-cutting there. Still a fine car, mind.
The parcel shelf-cum-tonneau cover holder in the 3 series estate (oops "Touring") is very heavy and solid. Despite the weight it is easy to remove and refix. A very impressive piece of kit.
Can't agree with the OP about Ford cars though. I really think that they have upped their game in terms of quality in the last few years.
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The parcel shelves on our 1 Series and Ficus compare however the tailgate on the 1 Series shuts with a really well engineered thunk, very satisfying. On the other hand the doors when shut sound kind of tinny compared to the Focus doors which seem very solid and, like the 1 Series tail gate, have a satisfying "thunk" about them.
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It's called "perceived quality" and it's something that the Germans, VW in particular, are very good at.
My brother-in-law owned a 2001 Passat at the same time as I owned a 2000 Mondeo. In terms of the bits you could see, touch, and feel, the VW was a superior product in every way. Doors clunked shut, the plastics were all soft feel and expensive looking, and the switchgear operated with a well damped crispness that the Ford couldn't get near. As for the details like the panel lighting, and the use of real chrome and metal trim instead of the Ford's coloured plastic, it really did look and feel a cut above the Ford.
But given the ownership experiences, you couldn't honestly argue the VW was a better quality product. Perhaps metal might have been better employed on the water pump impeller than the interior door handles, for example. Perhaps instead of spending money on the expensive trim, they could have designed out the flaw which allowed gallons of rainwater in during downpours. Or they could have spent a bit more to provide a clutch which didn't judder after just 40,000 miles of genuinely gentle use. The Ford, by contrast, just plodded on and cost buttons to keep it that way.
I now own two VWs and am very happy with them, but they are not a better quality product than the mk1 Focus I also spent 100,000 happy miles in. They look more expensive for sure, and feel more expensive, but better engineered? No.
Last edited by: DP on Thu 17 Mar 11 at 14:10
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I was lucky with my X1 - it is pretty near top spec and I'm certain that this promotes the perceived quality on the inside. It certainly feels more solid than my old E46, especially around the seating. The doors close with a proper solid thunk. The rear hatch is a trifle tinny though. All in all not a bad build.
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drove the wife's Fiesta more than the usual 20 feet into the garage last weekend, considering it is a top of the range Fiesta and just 2 years old it felt far more flimsy than the 3 year old Octavia and less well thought out.
Examples
The leather steering wheel on the Fiesta feels like plastic - only Ford could do that.
The handbrake handle feels very flimsy
There is nowhere to put your right foot when on cruise
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>> There is nowhere to put your right foot when on cruise
>>
Neither was there in my VW Tourans. Dreadful design, and no excuse for it in such a large vehicle. Especially when there is a foot rest in our older design MkIV Golf.
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Our Touran-sized Verso doesn't have a right-foot rest either, although it has a good one for the left foot. Perhaps the short nose of an MPV makes it difficult, but I don't think the car was designed with a cruise control in mind - the control lever is hidden behind the steering wheel and virtually unusable, as if it was bodged in there by a UK importer who felt it was a box that had to be ticked.
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The Altea had left and right footrests.
Footrests in a touran tho are not really required, didnt need one in mine. The driving position is so upright and the chairs so high that feet flat on the large space of floor was ample and comfortable
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I suppose we're all different sizes and shapes, Zero. I always found it uncomfortable on cruise in the Touran, so I tended not to use it.
EDIT: I must have odd proportions though, as, in every car I drive, when my arms are at a comfortable length from the steering wheel, my feet are always too close to the accelerator pedal.
Last edited by: Alanović on Thu 17 Mar 11 at 16:03
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I'd go along with DP's interpretation, perceived quality. My mk4 golf, to be fair to it, is pretty decent in everything you see or touch. Even the mechanical bits are of adequate quality, but it's still a stark contrast with the BMW.
The vag products all show signs of being built to a design price. I'm struggling to give proper examples but the bonnet latch mechanism - absolutely adequate on the golf but not a work of solid engineering as on the BMW. They're both considered designs but the BMW ones show no sign of cost optimisation, and are all the better for that.
The coolant hose runs on the VAG strike me as cost effective, and perfectly functional, but on the BMW there aren't any besides the radiator connections - like its been designed down to every last detail.
Suspension layout, it's a smaller car so maybe space constraints come into it, but it's quite busy under there. On the bm, every component has a clearly defined purpose, and doesn't double up with another function.
Can't really fault it though, not really, it's adequate except in the bits you see or touch where it's better than that, it's quite good. Maybe my gripe is it's a bit dishonest to present something of a pretty high standard that's only skin deep.
The Skodas different, it claims to be a budget car then delivers over and above. I like that.
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The bonnet release on the X1 is fine in as far as it goes. The one on the E46 felt better. But it's a subjective thing. I'll share the story about the major rattle I had in it when I first bought it when I have more time.
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In terms of build date the Fiesta is now 15 years old. Still going strong although it is now rusting badly.
How many modern BMWs will still be on the road in 15 years time?
I think the best thing about Fords is they are very cheap to own.
What I like about the Panda is the cost cutting is very obvious but everything feels solid, even the parcel shelf is nice and thick. The only cheap feeling part is the indicator stalks straight out of the Punto.
The problem I have with the latest Fords is they are a bit too snazzy all the money is spent on styling, Skoda is the exact opposite but look quite dull as a result.
It really depends what you want. Personaly I would choose the Fabia over a new Fiesta.
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Reversing the question Rats, How many 15 year old Fiestas do you see on the road ? :-)
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>> How many modern BMWs will still be on the road in 15 years time?
On Autotrader there are 10878 fiestas for sale
694 are over ten years old
thats 0.64%
there are 28,851 BMWs (all models) for sale
3182 are over ten years old.
thats 11%
I know its a silly sample, but it could be representative.
There 45527 fords (all models) for sale
3290 are over 10 years old
Thats 7%
So you could say fords do not last as long as BMWs and Fiestas last worse of all fords.
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>>
>> >> How many modern BMWs will still be on the road in 15 years time?
>>
>> On Autotrader...
>> So you could say fords do not last as long as BMWs and Fiestas last
>> worse of all fords.
>>
Or, as you are looking at a sales site you could say the Ford owners, however many >10 year Ford's there are still out there, are happy with their lot while the BMW owners can't wait to get rid.
Not very scientific or representative at all really.
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I've got a book written about the birth of the original Ford Fiesta. It's called "Let's call it Fiesta - the autobiography of Ford's Project BOBCAT, by Edouard Seidler".
It's obviously quite dated now, as it was written in 1976, and it also suffers from being a little biased towards Ford. However, it's very illuminating about how Ford (and others I guess) make these kind of decisions on quality, features, etc.
I quote:
"Here are your specific objectives within the framework of the overall target. We will allocate you a budget of two dollars for this component and fifteen cents for that one, If you spend too much here, you will have to make it up by saving more somewhere else." - Austin Schimmel (Ford engineer in the early 70s).
i.e. you can't have your cake and eat it!
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The MKII was modeled around a stripped down 205 (hence the look) - 205's are built of sterner stuff and you still see them about.
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>> 205's are built of sterner stuff and you still see them about.
I agree, and ironically, pretty much every Peugeot or Citroen reviewed in the 80's and 90's was panned for its "poor build quality". Fast forward 20 years, and these cars are often still running and roadworthy where a Ford, Vauxhall or even a VW would have rotted into the ground.
This again illustrates that the standard of interior trim and fittings, which were notoriously crappy in almost all 80's and 90's French cars, tells you absolutely nothing about the quality of the product itself.
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I was behind a 205 Rallye the other day, immaculate it wasn't but seemed very rust free.
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The so-called 'glovebox factor'.
Ford have never been very good at it, but have come on leaps and bounds in recent years.
I don't think there's much to choose in interior fit and finish between a Focus and a Golf.
I've only ever sat for a short time in a BMW 3 series, but that did seem a smallish cut above.
Brother and me test drove a Merc B-class a year or so ago.
What a disappointment, sub-Focus and Golf quality-wise, and by some way.
Vast amount of money, too.
Iffy's conclusion: small Mercs are rubbish.
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And of those old BMWs how many have a CANBUS system? Modern BMWs are just too complicated to be worth fixing when they get old.
Now maybe modern Fords will be as well only time will tell.
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I can't see how that makes a difference though. We'll have to wait 15 years to find out though.
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>> And of those old BMWs how many have a CANBUS system?
BMW were networking their ZKEs (body control module to you and me) to their DMEs (...engine ECU in BMW speak) long before canbus. I don't think i'd be too worried about technological developments affecting a BMW, they've been doing it while the mainstream marque were in their techno-nappies.
As an ownership proposition, an 11 year old, this month, BMW is still pretty reasonable. The problem would be if it rusted (which it's not likely to anytime soon) or if it had one of its "extra" features fail - they can be incredibly expensive to fix, e.g. the car phone / fax system would cost a bomb to replace if it failed.
Still going strong though, and i'd just do without if it did fail (actually i'd buy the blank arm rest & cubby & trim and pretend the option was never installed! :-)
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>> Still going strong though
You mention rust Skoda - this is where my E36 is beginning to show weakness, but I'm being fairly harsh, 13 years old and it has rust on the rear bottom corners of the front doors, the rear arch lips are just starting to stain brown this year and the bottom corner of the tailgate is bubbling as well as behind the number plate. But it is all minor - it would be years before any structural corrosion would take hold. This is where a 5 series would shine from an age point of view - the e34 at least, there's a guy at work who has a 525i auto and the thing is totally rust free thanks to the lower panels being galvanised - these cars are really long lived being relatively low tech compared to today as long as correctly serviced.
I would have assumed your 7 series would be galvanised too.
I haven't had a serious problem with the car in the six years I've owned it - the most expensive was replacing the rear brake pipes which can happen with any car - it has proved to be an excellent steed - of course I was lucky to buy a decent car in the first place.
The Focus is a car I have tried to resist, but I have to admit they are good :)
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I've had Fords (when I was saving money), Audis and BMWs, VWs plus Honda and Vauxhall.
In my experience Audi do the best interiors by a wide margin although I saw their quality advantage (both relative and absolute) decrease between the A4 B5 (superb), B7 (good) and B8 (not actually that marvellous).
On my 330d it was obvious the money had gone into the engineering, there were some laughable components like the flimsy plastic washer filler pipe but then is had beautifully cast aluminium suspension components, a strut brace and (for instance the tailgate was very robust. the interior was OK but there was evidence of money saving.
My face-lift Mondeo III had a reasonably good interior, it never rattled and was an improvement over earlier models, maybe not quite up to it's comparable Passat then (but as good as the 2005-2010 model I'd suggest).
Our Golf IV had a fantastic interior - probably 90% as god as my A4 B5 at the time (and that is a compliment) subjectively I think our Golf VI was as good as the Golf IV but the Golf V was famed for rattles I think ? The Focus I we had for a while was a great car but the interior wasn't a patch on the Golf IV.
So, my summary - Ford do reasonably good interiors, maybe not as good as VW but certainly robust and comfortable. I may get a Ford again as they are rather good to drive.
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The machanicals on the Fiesta were always solid, my dads on 92k now and not a single engine/gearbox/clutch problem within that time. The thermostat went that is about it.
The vast amount of problems were all down to cheap bushes and rust.
I still see loads of old Fiestas about every day. I see a few MK3s (1989-1996) and quite a few MK4s about (1996-2003).
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I may be wrong but I would suggest that rust would kill a car before CANbus becomes to expensive to fix.
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Depends what the problem is, but you can imagine on an 8 year old 5 series if something went wrong with the computerised suspension you could be looking at a bill in the £1000s. That is never going to happen on a Focus suspension.
To be fair I am comparing a £40k luxury saloon with an £18k Focus though.
My paint is though the only reason my dads Fiesta is still on the road is because even with the rust it is so cheap just to keep welding up each year providing it is mechanically ok.
Personally though I no longer feel safe in it knowing the floor has more holes that a scruffy science teachers pair of jeans. The fact remains at 92k it is still on the original MAF, HT leads, coil pack, starter, alternator, water pump, radiator, gearbox, clutch etc and as the supplying dealer was Quicks of Ashton Underlyme it is fair to say the car has never left Manchester in its 13.5 years of being registered. If Fords were really crap then that wouldn't be the case.
Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Thu 17 Mar 11 at 17:55
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Don't think anyone was implying they were crap. In all honesty I don't think there's much in it today other than a perception amongst badge loyal drivers. There were shoddy bits in the MK5 Golf that we owned....everything is built to the same parameters in the end (apart from uber expensive motors)
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Just on the parcel shelf thing, that 207 I had a while back had the lightest parcel shelf ive come across yet - it was barely heavier than my SKY remote and felt very much like it was made of some kind of foam.
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What's the point of spending money on a heavy duty parcel shelf? Nobody puts anything on it, unless they fancy a clout on the back of the head when they brake sharply.
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Maybe that's the whole point.
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...Maybe that's the whole point...
I remember commenting to a Renault salesman that the rear picnic tables on a new Scenic looked a bit flimsy.
"They have to be, sir," he said. "So they deform safely in a crash."
Good answer, and it might even be true.
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>>Nobody puts anything on it, unless they fancy a clout on the back of the head when they brake sharply.
My kids learnt that the hard way when I had to do an emergency stop.
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>> >>Nobody puts anything on it, unless they fancy a clout on the back of the
>> head when they brake sharply.
I once followed a chap in a 306 and had several double takes to confirm.
Yes he had a huge sheet of cut (plate?) glass perched across the back seats and shelf resting just behind the front seat head rests, i suppose he wouldn't have known anything about it the unthinkable happened, there really is one born every minute.
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>> What's the point of spending money on a heavy duty parcel shelf?
>> Nobody puts anything on it, unless they fancy a clout on the back of the head when they
>> brake sharply.
>>
Maybe just maybe things are a little different in leafy Surrey.
I have in the past seen cars travelling in my area with one or even two dogs on the the rear parcel shelf and yes I do mean real live dogs not Churchill freebies.
Does not a flat cap give full protection?
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We own an A3 and RAV4, having just sold an i10. Yesterday I was in a 60 plate 1.6 Focus from a hire company and went 200 miles in it. The dynamic set up of steering and general ease of controls etc was good, fine for an "average family car" but I didn't feel as if I was in anything other than a cheap car.
The dash board was cheap looking : I could see the "cut out" where the passenger air bag would fire through; The sat nav was terrible; control buttons did not give particularly good feed back when pressed (but were well placed); the seat fabric was iffy (but seats fairly comfy - good but not great); the doors felt paperweight and closed with a tinny flap. Nothing major and all fine for a price but it didn't feel that much better than the i10 and had similar marks on the glove box lid where bags had banged up against it and scratched/damaged the surface.
What killed it for me was the 1.6 petrol engine with 5 speed gearbox which sat at 3750 RPM at 70 - it perpetually had whoever was driving trying to change into (non existent) 6th gear. This meant that it was tiring to drive and be a passenger in and did not make an appealing ownership prospect to me as a result.
Each time I step into a Ford looking forward to the experience based on what I read about them, every time I step away without my poor opinion of Fords having been changed.
I must confess to a terrible Sierra and a Capri I never got on with which have darkened my opinion of Ford (whereas a fabulous Mk1 Cavalier makes me more positive on Vauxhall).
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I read some marketing guff in a BMW publication that the shelves were meant to be crap. Down to some tree-hugging idea. Been to the car now the hatch does clunk in a BMW sort of way, what it doesn't do is unlock at all pleasantly, very low rent.
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I actually prefer the roller blind style luggage compartment covers youi most often find in estate cars to the removable "solid" ones found in hatchbacks. I mean, where are you supposed to put the thing if you take it off to bring something large home? ( Don't answer this BBD ! )
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The CRV had the best of both worlds - a properly engineered shelf and a separate roller cover. Both removable.
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The lancer has a fine "roller blind" as you would expect in a Gentlemans Estate car. It even has a stowage area for the said blind under the boot floor.
All very civilised.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 17 Mar 11 at 20:48
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>> Gentlemans Estate car
!! :-)
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To be fair Skoda, all estate cars are more gentlemanly than saloons. Saloons are for fag reps. More secure boots for when they are cold calling on corner shops in rough areas.
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>> for fag reps
I think i read that the wrong way at first! :-)
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The ageing MB coupe has lovely vacuum controlled door/boot/fuel flap locks, almost silent and very smooth, the parcel shelf is a lovely quality permanent fixture.
It is let down by a light boot lid though that sounds like a 65 mk 2 Cortina when closing.
As for parcel shelves, well in vans with windows they will be of the disposable type, have to keep the payload competitive. :-)
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>> The ageing MB coupe has lovely vacuum controlled door/boot/fuel flap locks, almost silent and very
>> smooth, the parcel shelf is a lovely quality permanent fixture.
>>
>> It is let down by a light boot lid though that sounds like a 65
>> mk 2 Cortina when closing.
>>
This must be an MB thing. The rear hatch on my E-class estate also used to rattle terribly when you closed it (and the same on others I've used). I don't think it was just the number-plate holder, either.
I'm now owning my first ever Ford, and I have to say the general standard of fit and finish is a fair compromise. No it's not to an MB standard (although the doors do close with a nice thunk), but considering the price differential, I think it is probably better value.
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It is a win win, use cheap quality materials (saving on build costs) but then claim it is for environmental reasons. Great marketing spin.
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Ford KA parcel shelf strong but plastic pivotting clips frail. One of mine has broken, I removed it from the shelf (it is a seperate part) and took it to a main agent to replace it. Not available except as a part of a complete shelf @ £88! This is more than the cost of, say, a replacement tyre! I have bodged it with a cable tie and that will have to do!
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My parcel shelf is on hinges, it doesn't lift up with the tailgate but it is actually a genius design. The only problem is if you forget to put it back down again as you have to go back into the boot and put it down.
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I had an E class estate once that had a powered roller blind /parcel shelf. It worked like a normal roller blind, but hooked into the 'D' pillar. If you opened the boot with the blind closed it lifted up along the arc of the 'D' pillar, then motored its way back down when you closed the boot!!
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On my old Pug 306 XSi, the parcel shelf contained the rear speakers. Underneath was a coiled cable much like the one going to the receiver of an old fashioned telephone, with a bayonet type connector plugging into the side of the luggage compartment. To remove the parcel shelf, you had to disconnect this connector before you removed the shelf.
Not a huge inconvenience, but it was irritating that you lost the rear speakers when you had the parcel shelf out.
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I could try that I guess, thanks Cheddar. The problem seemed trivial but @ £88 it isn't. I'll try and report back.
Last edited by: Perky Penguin on Thu 17 Mar 11 at 21:31
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Had to drive a bread an butter car today with no parcel shelf as mr and mrs fat kept it anyway the car was far noisier than normal and reminded me why ive always preferred saloon cars to bodgebacks
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>> mr and mrs fat
I once bought a Renault 11 (during my year of "trading"), it had been owned by two 25-stone plus people. The front seats (single central runner) leaned noticeably inward towards each other :(
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>> I could try that I guess, thanks Cheddar. The problem seemed trivial but @ £88
>> it isn't. I'll try and report back.
>>
I believe the Ford trim warranty is only for one year.
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>> Ford KA parcel shelf strong but plastic pivotting clips frail. One of mine has broken,
>> I removed it from the shelf (it is a seperate part) and took it to
>> a main agent to replace it. Not available except as a part of a complete
>> shelf @ £88! This is more than the cost of, say, a replacement tyre! I
>> have bodged it with a cable tie and that will have to do!
This is exactly the kind of thing a breakers or eBay is good for.
Find the tattiest shelf you can (and hence the cheapest), take the good clip off it, put it on your shelf, and dump the rest. I would be amazed if it cost you much more than a tenner.
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Thanks for the pointer DP! I have matters pressing, urgent and personal on my mind which don't involve the cosmetics of parcel shelves as No 1 but I shall start some research!
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Have found 2009 KAs being broken within 10 miles of my house! Branch of a vast firm called Traynors so the part have to be brought in and there is no indication of price, yet. There were some on ebay but they looked liked the pre 99 model. Thanks again!
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>> Each time I step into a Ford looking forward to the experience based on what
>> I read about them, every time I step away without my poor opinion of Fords
>> having been changed.
>>
.
Same here - I always want to like them, but always come away thinking there is so much else I would rather have
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Used to run Fords many years ago to save money on the basis that mass produced, cheap spares and easy to fix meant saving money. Didn't take into account the aggro factor of having to fix the thing every five minutes. Woke up and bought a Volvo.
I'd rather push a Chevy than drive a Ford
:)
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>> Used to run Fords . Woke up and bought
>> a Volvo.
>>
Oh dear. I had better not remind you that Volvos share an awful lot with Fords these days. Platforms, engines, gearboxes, dashboard fittings, etc.
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I've had a few of Fords. A 1983 Sierra 1.6, 1980 Fiesta 1.1, 2000 Fiesta Zetec-S, 1998 Fiesta 1.4 Si, 2000 Mondeo 1.8TD, 2002 Focus 1.8 TDDi, and briefly, a 2003 Focus 1.6 Zetec, and not one of them gave me any serious, or regular grief.
The only issue was the rot on the Sierra which required the services of a MIG welder for many of its MOTs. The mechanics were bulletproof though. Apart from a penchant for suspension bushes on some of them, they needed remarkably little attention outside of routine servicing.
On the whole, good to drive, comfy, cheap to run, and reliable. I would have another without any hesitation.
Last edited by: DP on Sun 20 Mar 11 at 22:03
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Myself and my immediate family have had around 30 Fords including Prefects, Anglias, Escorts, a Fiesta, many Cortinas, a couple of Sierras, a Mondeo and several Focuses.
Some must have broken down, but the ones I have intimate knowledge of didn't.
No problems with rust, either, although most were sold on after a few years.
The late 60s/early 70s Cortina was a marvellous machine for its time.
It allowed the family man to take on a long cross-country journey with the reasonable expectation he would get there.
No other car so cheap could cruise reliably at 65/70mph and cover tens of thousands of miles needing only routine maintenance.
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>> >> Used to run Fords . Woke up and bought
>> >> a Volvo.
>> >>
>>
>> Oh dear. I had better not remind you that Volvos share an awful lot with
>> Fords these days. Platforms, engines, gearboxes, dashboard fittings, etc.
>>
My Focus had a Volvo washer bottle cap! :-)
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>>
>> My Focus had a Volvo washer bottle cap! :-)
>>
My Focus has a Volvo engine!
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>>
>> >>
>> >> My Focus had a Volvo washer bottle cap! :-)
>> >>
>>
>>
>> My Focus has a Volvo engine!
Two in fact.
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Ford, Vauxhall. Citroen, VW, Skoda, Volvo etc... very little in it these days and all down to an individual's perception of quality... which can be chunky engineering or the twiddly nice touches.
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I agree, most these days are cobbled together with the same component manufacturers bits and pieces. It is just the skin and badge that is different.
As an example my Ceed has a Bosch CR system and ECU, a Siemens audio system, and Michelin tyres. :-)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 21 Mar 11 at 10:33
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Yes,interested to read that Bosch has had to close its' factories in Japan temporalily because of the earthquake!
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Ford - Ford shelf life - R.P.
