I cannot believe what is happening in this Country.
Working for a classroom assistant yesterday she told me that they are allowed to put sun cream on children, but they must NOT use their hands. Some days I just wanna weep.
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The problem is that the policies surrounding this sort of thing are capable of being stupidly interpreted - including unfortunately by those sitting in judgement.
I'm sure it contributes to the general disregard for the law in general.
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Something is going to have to give at some point because we can't carry on like this - it's getting way too sensitive and these 'authorities' are losing touch with reality. OK we've only heard the one report, but this sort of thing does seem to be getting worse.
Like health and safety where I work. They daubed everything in yellow paint so people wouldn't knock into things and hurt themselves - sad really. I pity these suits that have nothing better to do all day than dream up these ideas.
Now excuse me while I go and watch something dangerous like Fred Dibnah :)
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I loathe reading articles like that. Puts me in a grotty mood.
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I really hope this forum isn't going to turn into the comments section of the Mail website whipped up by their boringly bisased, over dramatic and often factually incorrect articles.
A paper that would bother to report... **Chloe Madeley ends up badly bruised after nasty fall on the ice**
Errr well who cares really... and she just fell over like thousands of people will every day at their local ice rink. No cuts, no fractures... nothing.
75% dross in the Mail.
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Last edited by: Zero on Sat 12 Feb 11 at 10:25
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Couldn't agree more Zero.
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There is a pub down the old kent rd. in sowf lunden called The world turned upside down,
I think that just about sums it up!
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... really hope this forum isn't going to turn into the comments section of the Mail website whipped up by their boringly bisased, over dramatic and often factually incorrect articles...
Equally, the 'shoot the messenger' rant is getting a little tiresome.
The story is based on the 'investigation' by the council.
The poor woman at the centre of it has declined to comment.
It is a fact the complaint was made and it is a fact it was investigated at great length.
Speaking of which, another fact is the woman who said 'jungle drums' was not interviewed for the joke 'investigation'.
The whole thing is a pile of cack from start to finish.
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We need Sonia Carr and her ilk to keep us on our toes. The significant part of this story is not Mrs Carr but the Council.
If an allegation is made they're obliged to investigate it. That does not mean taking it at face value and, against all natural justice. 'upholding' the complaint without interviewing the person who made the remark. A short talk with the complainant and others present would have been proportionate and taken an hour or so. Contrary to the statement attributed to the Council in an earlier version of the report their IS a 'reasonable person' defence. Looks like Maladministration to me and one hopes Mrs F will pursue such a complaint.
And while it's entirely reasonable to use the term to talk about gossip in Wiltshire's NHS it'd be regarded as pretty dodgy used to describe the community grapevine in an ethnically diverse area of London.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 12 Feb 11 at 11:06
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...We need Sonia Carr and her ilk to keep us on our toes...
We need Sonia Carr and her ilk to fit in with our way of life if they wish to live here.
The complaint is ridiculous and should never have been made.
This would have saved putting the council in a position it was so ill-equpped to handle.
They really should stick to emptying the bins.
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Local government is the worst for this kind of action. You are put on diversity workshops reminded what you can and can't say and the relevant Acts are drummed into you. Not the jungle type though!
With certain groups within this kind of organisation you tend to tread on egg shells around these groups of people hoping that anything you say is not construed as offensive. It makes my work environment more stressful at times than it should be.
As to the council, if someone employed by them makes a complaint or accusation they have to by law act on it, no matter how trivial those outside the organisation feel it is. It is only by releasing this kind of lunacy in the press that these time wasting investigations come to light and hopely change things for the better.
I bet the complainent has had more abuse over this than the original comment she felt at the time. So was it worth persuing in the first place.
As this woman had previous "form" for complaining, I am surprised the others at the meetings didn't prime "outsiders" to the fact, just in case an innocent comment came out to cause her offence. I know that in my organisation, we know when to mind our Ps and Qs, if you get my drift.
Trouble is that within these organisations you are guilty to proven innocent. In my circle, if you had uttered the same, I would have been suspended straightaway until the investigation and resulting hearing had completed. I could also lose my job and pension. AS was in this case,all because of a serial stirrer. Don't get me wrong, serious racial or sexual harrassment/bullying is not tollerable and the full weight of the law must used. But in this case, it makes a mockery of it all, which might deter someone from reporting genuine severe cases because of this feedback and gets average peoples backs up.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sun 13 Feb 11 at 03:01
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>> We need Sonia Carr and her ilk to fit in with our way of life
>> if they wish to live here.
'They' are largely people who were born here. They have as much right to live here as you and I. Surely nobody should have to put up with the explicit racism of the Powellite era or the more casual stuff that's still around? That's not part of the British way of life and it's right that there are laws and processes to deal with it.
>> The complaint is ridiculous and should never have been made.
>>
The complaint was misguided and should have been dealt with as such in a firm & polite manner. The Council officers who spun it out should, on the face of it be disciplined. If elected members bullied them into handling it the way they did then members need reporting through the Standards Board etc. Quickly before the Government abolish it.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 12 Feb 11 at 12:52
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>>>the 'shoot the messenger' rant is getting a little tiresome.
This is a messenger Iffy...
www.salisburyjournal.co.uk/news/salisbury/salisburynews/8839713.Council_backs_down_in_racism_row/
Clear & accurate with no attempt to whip up the masses... and importantly starting off with a summary paragraph with the crucial info that at least the council decision had been overturned. A fact that could well have been overlooked as I lost the will to live before getting to that point in the Mail article.
BTW the public comments after that article are interesting.
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...as I lost the will to live before getting to that point in the Mail article...
So in common with a few on here, you make bold pronouncements about the Daily Mail without even reading the article.
I'm going to get into that spirit:
Citroen C5s are rubbish, I've never driven one, sat in one, or even looked closely at one, but I know they are rubbish.
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I used to get the Daily Mail. I confess it took me a while to realise just how much of a right wing outraged middle england slant it put on news.
The articles on here, just confirm to me that slant has not reversed. I dont need to read it to know its rubbish, If it comes from the mail, it is.
Do you stick pins in your eyes? no because you know it hurts. And yes you can shoot the messenger in these cases, the choice of vehicle ( the mail) and the choice of message (the outraged middle england crap) means the messenger should be shot.
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 12 Feb 11 at 11:59
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...I dont need to read it to know its rubbish...
Instead of all this hyperbole, lets have a list of all the lies in the linked article.
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How about the fact, missing from this article, that the term JUNGLE DRUMS, *IS* derogatory.
The mail does not decide what is and isnt offensive, only the offended person can decide that.
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 12 Feb 11 at 12:05
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...The mail does not decide what is and isnt offensive, only the offended person can decide that...
My, what a revelation.
Each person decides for themselves what they find offensive.
It appears you find the term jungle drums offensive.
In this context, I do not.
The woman who complained found it offensive.
The woman who said it did not (presumably).
And so on...
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>> ...The mail does not decide what is and isnt offensive, only the offended person can
>> decide that...
>>
>> My, what a revelation.
>>
>> Each person decides for themselves what they find offensive.
>>
>> It appears you find the term jungle drums offensive.
>>
>> In this context, I do not.
In that context, you dont count.
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...In that context, you dont count...
Another startling revelation.
If I were being as childish, I would say neither do you.
Except neither statement is true, because the views of each citizen do count in the wider scheme of things.
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No, in the context you gave, you dont count - really.
You were not there, you were not the offender or the offended. you are not black, So your view of whether you found the remark offensive or not, really doesn't count.
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...really doesn't count...
Yes it does, as does the view of everyone else, because we all have a say in the way this country is run.
My view - as expressed by the Daily Mail - has already counted, if you accept those who are directly involved are aware of the publicity.
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>> Yes it does, as does the view of everyone else, because we all have a
>> say in the way this country is run.
No it doesn't. You may wish to express a view, but its not valid. Your view can not be counted about what is and isn't offensive. It was not directed at you or about you.
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...Your view can not be counted about what is and isn't offensive...
The woman who complained now knows many people in the country think she was wrong to do so - my view has been counted.
The woman who was complained about now knows many people in the country think she did nothing wrong - my view has been counted again.
And all this has been achieved thanks to my favourite newspaper, and without me having to lift a finger.
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>> ...I dont need to read it to know its rubbish...
>>
>> Instead of all this hyperbole, lets have a list of all the lies in the
>> linked article.
"but also an indictment of the kind of society we have now become, where the pernicious culture of political correctness holds sway and common sense has all but disappeared."
not FACT merely editorial opinion that has NO place in an article pretending to be factual news. Its this careful and deliberate mixing of editorial opinions, and views within news, that makes the Mail worthy of scorn by any rational sensible and intelligent person.
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.....not FACT merely editorial opinion that has NO place in an article pretending to be factual >news. Its this careful and deliberate mixing of editorial opinions, and views within news, >that makes the Mail worthy of scorn by any rational sensible and intelligent person.....
This statement deserves a 5star recommendation.
Well said could not have phrased better myself.
Happy Motoring Phil I
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You underestimate me Iffy. Despite losing the will to live I read to the end of that article in the Mail so I could comment on it accurately. I still say as an article it was confusing and wordy to whip up trouble rather than report facts... particularly if compared with the excellent local news.
I'm genuinely surprised you would be annoyed enough... even jokingly... to bring in my choice of car to this thread given that by and large I often support your views.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Sat 12 Feb 11 at 12:01
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.... even jokingly...
Fenlander,
It was a joke.
I just think in this case the choice of the source of the information is not relevant.
Sure, the Mail will do the article in its own way, but the facts speak for themselves.
My views on those facts are the same, no matter where I read those facts.
And it wasn't even me who linked to the Mail this time, although I admit it could have been. :)
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I don't quite understand the polarized views about this or any newspaper, well certainly not here where i'd have thought most would have the nous to see past the personal and political slant of whatever rag they happen to be reading.
Now and again i read the Mail online as it's free, and is amusing at least....i will not give money to those who's interests are vested in any way, so will not buy or subscribe online to any news media, i'm certainly not paying for propaganda.
The Mail's script may well be from a certain stance, but so will any newspaper, none of them are truly independent...indeed some of them change their political allegiances to suit so today's views may well be rewritten to suit tomorrows when they support the other team.
I would hope that most people take a healthy pinch of salt with anything and everything they read or see in the media.
As for this case, a storm in a teacup that will likely result in bringing to an end by taint the career and standing of the lady reported for an innocuous remark....along with thousands of others no doubt over years gone by and to come...a handy tool to get rid of those who don't suit any particular agenda...untouchable after the race or other similar finger is pointed, no smoke without fire, just wouldn't do to associate and be tarred what?
EUSSR?
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ive probably said it before but i reckon i would be suspended within an hour of working for someone as im from an era and a place where we say what we think and to damm with the consequences (within reason if his dads bigger than my dad then the fingers might just come out whilst his backs turned)
misssssssssssssssssssss
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I just had a thought about this - do any cultures actually use drums to communicate messages? If so, is this in any jungle area?
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"Developed from hollow tree trunks, and used by cultures living in deforested areas, drums served as an early form of long distance communication"
So 'Jungle Drums' are an early form of communication then. So I wonder if the term 'ringing around' or just 'gossiping' is offensive in Middle England? Maybe telephone is too?
I find it puzzling where the actual offense is found, unless you happen to live in a jungle and use drums. I assume the term originally stems from the fact that gossip tends to travel, like long distance communication, which can also be done with drums.
I cant really imagine gossipy people banging on drums to get word out, although it may be amusing if I ever do see it in the midlands.
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There is an Island in the Canaries orf the Western shores of Tenerife called La Gomera that has a whistling language,
Quite handy really, as one doesn't have to carry around a drum to have a chinwag now & again.
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"There is an Island in the Canaries orf the Western shores of Tenerife called La Gomera that has a whistling language"
Indeed, well known birthplace of Roger Whittaker.
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In West Africa, in particular Nigeria, there is a so-called 'talking drum'. The one I've seen is a fairly conventional long heavy conga drum, placed vertically in a frame and played with a straight stick and an L-shaped one. The drummer makes the drum talk by pressing on the skin and moving his hand about while beating the drum with the other hand. A surprisingly articulate range of sounds can result.
I am no expert though, and there may well be many other kinds of drum used for communication. A musician friend used to have a talking drummer in his band, and I often observed him at work from close quarters. However he was making music with a dozen or more other performers, not sending signals.
If the story in the OP is true, it is clearly malicious and mischievous of that lady to have complained, and even more clearly criminally idiotic of the council to take the complaint seriously. However the piece from the DM website looks as if it was written by a ten-year-old. Piece of crap.
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>> So 'Jungle Drums' are an early form of communication then. So I wonder if the
>> term 'ringing around' or just 'gossiping' is offensive in Middle England? Maybe telephone is too?
>>
>> I find it puzzling where the actual offense is found, unless you happen to live
>> in a jungle and use drums. I assume the term originally stems from the fact
>> that gossip tends to travel, like long distance communication, which can also be done with
>> drums.
I think the potential for offence is in the word jungle. Think 'they should go back to......' or the term 'jungle bunnies'.
No issue in the way jungle drums is used as reported in the Mail article, its a quite reasonable analogy for news traveling in the community.
OTOH I had a job a few years ago where I managed a team of Data Processors. A mix of down to earth white Londoners (permanent staff) and agency placements several of whom were Nigerian girls. Away from their keypads for a break they'd have a tea & chatter in their own language; mostly gossip about men judging by the body language!!. Now if, in their return to their desks they'd been asked to explain what the jungle drums were saying there would be serious risk of offence being taken.
As I said up thread it's all about context and sometimes we need to think before we speak.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 12 Feb 11 at 15:44
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Is "grapevine" offensive to all the residents of countries that have wine trees?
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In France and francophone countries the grapevine is called 'Radio-trottoir' (pavement radio,=street chatter).
Is this offensive to broadcasters and navvies?
Is 'navvies' offensive to navvies?
I'll get me donkey jacket with COSTAIN or better still MURPHY written on the back.
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Its funny for me because I funny enough have experienced a certain level of unpleasent behaviour from people over the years due to my German heritage, mainly attributing all Germans to the Nazi party, which I must admit, I do find it insulting and hospitalised a boy at my school for the suggestion many years ago ( back in the day when you could have a fight over it, reach a conclusion and move on ).
However, there are plenty of what you may call anti-German or negative German stereotypes which Im sure if you are of a mind to, I could decide to take offense to if I wished to make a fuss for the sake of it and some soft-headed person would think it was legit.
In truth, making fun of a country for the food they eat or cars they drive or odd clothes, it doesnt really cause deep offense in the main, my grandfather always thought the English a bit strange in their own way despite living here for 60 odd years.
Its someone poking fun at you whereas attributing a nation to a facist, evil political movement which in various forms exists in many countires other than Germany is never going to be funny.
In a way, finding offense where it really shouldnt be found takes away from genuinely hurtful attacks on people and cultures because the whole concept of finding offense is undermined.
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A word has the potential to be offensive when its acquired a pejorative or demeaning usage.
Thus grape, vine & broadcaster are entirely safe. The word navvies, derived IIRC from 'navigators' digging 18th century canals, has acquired a pejorative usage meaning uneducated Irish immigrant. Not offensive of itself but can be in a specific context.
Describe an Irish engineer as a b***** navvie and you might end up with a b***** nose!!
EDIT - Stu's post above illustrates perfectly the issue of context and usage. German's eating sausages might be fun, suggesting the entire nation is still given to goose stepping and anti semitism is not.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 12 Feb 11 at 16:18
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Yes Bromptonaut.
It all boils down to intention. Affectionate ribbing in the case of a real friend, anyway in the circles I often frequent, can sound like pretty savage racial or cultural stereotyping to a passer-by. But no sane person would come on like that to someone they didn't know well.
To Jews I know of my generation whose parents were forced to flee Europe by the Nazis and many of whose close relations were murdered by them, the holocaust is a strictly policed area: they are extremely intolerant of thoughtless talk about any aspect of it and loudmouthed experting by outsiders, and don't hesitate to say so.
None of them are very anti-German as such being in many cases of German or Austrian extraction themselves.
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Comedy is often the best cure for the PC brigade.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfl6Lu3xQW0
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In a free country, it must be everyone's right to be offensive sometimes.
But how often, against whom, and who decides those limits?
Does each individual, however sensitive, have the right to limit the degree of offensiveness of every other person in the country?
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There's absolutely no need to be offensive. Now, put that in your pipe and smoke it!
;-)
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Pipe smokers are writing their letters of complaint as we speak.
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>> There's absolutely no need to be offensive. >>
But there is, sometimes. Some people are never offended by anything, others will take offence at things that are to 90% of the population just part of the ordinary rough and tumble of life.
It would be absolutely intolerable if the definition of "offensive" were that someone, somewhere was offended by something.
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>>But there is, sometimes
Good observation Cliff. Offence, like beauty, can be in the eye of the beholder.
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I'm glad the Salisbury Journal is still the sort of paper I was proud to work for.
On three occasions I was reported to the Press Complaints Commission over articles I had written. Each complaint was investigated (so they said) and on each occasion I was exonerated. At no time did I hear anything about these complaints or investigations until letters giving the verdicts arrived on my desk.
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>>On three occasions I was reported to the Press Complaints Commission over articles I had written
Can you remember what any of the complaints were about MH?
Anyway I am green with envy. I have seldom managed to give offence with the published word. Perhaps the gamekeepers were too efficient.
Never mind. I have made up for it here in cyberspace.
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>> None of them are very anti-German as such being in many cases of German or Austrian extraction themselves.
I have been thinking about this. It's a bit too bald as a statement. Perhaps needs a qualifying phrase, something like 'Despite a persistent reserve or slight froideur, ... '
It's important to be exact with subjects as fraught as this one.
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www.qwghlm.co.uk/toys/dailymail/
All you need to know about the Daily Fail.
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...about the Daily Fail...
Daily Success more like.
It's more or less wiped out its nearest rival, the Daily Express.
The Mail's circulation is holding up better than most nationals, down a mere 3.9% when the others are falling by 6% and more.
The Times is down a worrying 14%, suggesting the Mail, having chewed up and spat out the Express, is now chomping at the sales of the old Thunderer.
www.pressgazette.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=1&storycode=46548&c=1
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I'd be alarmed if I didn't have such faith in humanity.
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...I'd be alarmed...
I'd be alarmed about the drop in circulation, but I don't take the Daily Mail as seriously as you do.
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...Touché...
Cheers, although it was a genuine observation.
You are more concerned about the impact the Daily Mail has on our society than I am.
Although your remark about having faith in humanity suggests we do have some common ground.
Both of us are wary of over-estimating the Mail's impact, even though we are approaching the question from opposing sides.
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I dont take the Mail seriously as such, but I do like its easy access format and if one is able to read and understand written English, Ive found myself more than capable of reading between the lines.
My nan on the otherhand believes everything she reads in the Sun... and they dont just mislead or put a slant on stuff, they just make it up from scratch, or so ive heard, may not be true :-)
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I am delighted with the new "i" newspaper. 20p. A proper paper, at a teriffic price, in the best physical format.
At last. Just wish they weren't such evangelically religious freaks about climate change.
I've got such a thing about the Wail that I won't even pick it up and read it for free in a waiting room.
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You need a big one for cat litter :-)
John
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You lot better watch your step, shes after you :-) - MD
