Our house is a 70's built small detached with a combi boiler and radiators in every room. Double glazing, cavity wall insulation and half decent loft insulation.
Problem I've found is even though the heating system works fine, and all of the radiators get piping hot the downstairs always feels a lot cooler than upstairs. I know the warm will rise but downstairs is usually where you sit and relax, and generally I feel the wrong side of cool.
Turning up the heating is one thing, but then upstairs becomes too hot! I've checked for draughts and the usual but nothing. All the downstairs floors are concrete (with laminate or carpet over the top) so is it possible they just make the ground floor feel colder?
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Are you up and down a lot kids in and out dog wrong side of the door?
Everytime you open the door it escapes same as if the kids leave it open.
Mine is the same but you may have to have the fire on a little and turn temp on heating down to 21c.
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Well we don't have pets etc. Its usually mid evening when you notice its cool even though the thermotstat reads 21. Upstairs feels comfortable but downstairs makes you want to turn the heating up!
Maybe its just me, my thermostat might be faulty!
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Might be a good idea to fit thermostatic radiator valves upstairs. Generally speaking, unless you have a dual zone heating system, all the radiators should be a similar temperature.
Perhaps try turning the pump up.
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Have you ever balanced the radiators? It can be done by a heating engineer but in truth better done by the owner who can tweak any changes over a week ot two. Makes a huge difference.
Since we put in d/glazing and other insulation measures ours has gone out of balance so much I've even had to swap some rads for different sizes but that's quite an extreme example.
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All rads in the house have TRVs - all set to about the same (not quite maximum) so they all get hot - each rad is proportionally sized to the room its in as well.
I've never tried balancing them though. Would it make a difference if they're all gettting hot anyway?
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Being a 1970s house, your concrete ground floor will not be insulated, and especially where there is no carpet, you will loose a fair bit of heat here. Insulate it if you can (bit messy and not cheap).
Last edited by: Boxsterboy on Tue 25 Jan 11 at 13:20
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I dream of a house that gets too hot. As for temperatures reaching 21, well that's pie in the sky for us. Never gets over 18 at full bore with all rads maxed out, and burning oil like its going out of fashion, so it's extra cardies for us.
Be grateful.
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...Be grateful...
Iffy Towers is a draughty Victorian terrace with high ceilings and is never really toasty warm.
On the plus side, it's nice and cool in summer, which isn't always the case.
I've known of some buildings which contrive to be too cold in winter and too hot and stuffy in summer.
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Crankcase Manor is a draughty Victorian detached with high ceilings and is a great place to be as long as you don't want warmth.
One of the problem with being a diy dunce (cf other threads about water butts et al) is that apparently simple things like draught proofing are always totally beyond me, so everything has to be paid for, and little men who do things cost a fortune.
Prime example - lounge door is warped, so a howling gale comes in. Not a clue in the world how to do anything about that, especially if it involves tools, so it's a case of "suppose we'll have to get a new door made then, as it's a non standard frame size. Another five hundred quid no doubt". Repeat for five more doors.
I really wish my school had spent less time on Lucullus and his blinking fish ponds and more on "say hello to Mr Screwdriver."
Last edited by: Crankcase on Tue 25 Jan 11 at 13:33
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How would you be at taking the doors off? You can "unwarp" them.
How are they warped? top, bottom or middle? Over time you can unwarp them in situ.
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Hmm. I just know this is going to lead to tears, but...
If I take the door off (fat chance, screws are always locked solid in my experience and then you get a drill and the bit breaks and then...) then it will never in a million years go back on.
Lounge door is warped top left, so that whole corner comes into the room when it's shut. Make sense?
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>> Lounge door is warped top left, so that whole corner comes into the room when
>> it's shut. Make sense?
that will have to come off to unwarp then.
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>> that will have to come off to unwarp then.
>>
Ok, at least I know it's in the official beyond my skill pile. Thanks.
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>>>Lounge door is warped top left, so that whole corner comes into the room when it's shut.
Ours too. Mind you as I have the heating well balanced no room is any colder than another so no cold draughts :-)
Bendy door has the benefit of allowing great airflow to feed the woodburner when the wicks up a bit.
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If a woodscrew won't move, don't drill it out, heat it. Blast it with a hot air paint stripper (ok you've got some repainting to do) and then try.
John
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That's useful, John, ta. If I had one I'd use it!
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Yes as different rads on different parts of the system will give different amounts of heat into each room. I assume you know about the valve the opp end to your thermostatics being the balancing valve?
You need to open the thermostatics fully and then bit at a time turn down the balancing valve in rooms that are too warm and see how it goes over a couple of days.
The by the book method is to use two clip on thermometers on the rad inlet/outlet pipes and aim for the same temp drop over each rad but even pros rarely bother with this.
I always go round all the rads and close each balancing valve in turn to work out how many turns open it was at the start.... then keep a note of the changes you make.
BTW thermostatic valves can help but the system should always be balanced first before you work out what TRV settings suit each room.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Tue 25 Jan 11 at 13:22
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The heat will be going up the stairs. I once owned a house where the stairs were in the lounge and vowed never again.
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Oh I've just seen you have a thermostat and TRVs?? That can give some odd results depending on the stat position... I wonder where it is and is that a room that feels hot or cold compared with others?
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Cheers for the ideas. Sounds like it might be combination of things to look at. Balancing the rads is probably the first thing to try.
The floors downstairs feel cold to the touch (where its laminate) so I guess the concrete must sap some of the heat.
We're lucky as our lounge is seperated from the stairs by a door, which we normally keep closed.
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Laminate floor always feels cold. Stick a thick fitted carpet in the lounge and you'll feel warmer!
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>> I've never tried balancing them though. Would it make a difference if they're all gettting
>> hot anyway?
Yeah, but you said some are warmer than others. Think of it of "how much heat is each room sucking out of each radiator"
Fenlander seems not be a fan of the two thermometers method, personaly I think its the best way, specially for the home owner who has the time to use it properly.
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No I'm not knocking the *proper* way... just saying most folks use the suck it and see way.
When we've done something that changes the balance it can take a couple of weeks of tweaking to get it spot on again.
It could be on Snakey's setup all the upstairs rads need taking down a turn or so.
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>>
>> It could be on Snakey's setup all the upstairs rads need taking down a turn
>> or so.
>>
That's the first thing I'd do, I thought the point of TRVs was to be able to locally reduce the temperature.
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Thermostat is downstairs,ironically in probably the coolest end of the house so I would have thought it would have made the heating stay on longer!
All of the rads are hot - not using a scientific method but they all feel the same temparature to me once the heating is running.
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The Madasafish Georgian mansion is similarly afflicted. Close EVERY upstairs door and keep them closed. Close every downstairs door and keep them closed.
That works: no more iciccklessss. Warm? Kitchen is. Draughts? Cheap fix is newspapers on floor under carpets...and jammed into cracks between floor boards. As some of ours are 4 metres long and very old, there are lots of gaps... or rather were...
Last edited by: madf on Tue 25 Jan 11 at 13:42
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After looking at balance if it still wasn't right it would be worth working through the room heat calcs... was a black art but now easily done online...
www.homesupply.co.uk/radiator_output_calculator.php
Then compare rad sizes to outputs on the same webpage. Different ages/styles/brands of rads do have slightly different heat outputs for a given size but this would give you some clues.
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To get the balance right, and to check on cold spots etc, I'm told an infrared thermometer takes the guesswork out. I'm pondering buying one, but as I want to use it to monitor external heat loss from another property aswellas other tasks, I'm checking out range, aspect ratio and accuracy as well as price! I haven't found one I can be sure about at a sensible price - say £20. For rads, something for that price or less would probably be OK.
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I got one of these:
www.maplin.co.uk/pocket-infrared-thermometer-220790
To see what my rads were doing (a heady 52 seemed to be the answer).
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I think the odd thing about this is that it *feels* cool even though the thermostat shows that its reading 21.
I've moved the thermostat around a few times to make sure its not near a draught or a radiator to confuse the reading. As its a wireless one its easy enough to move around!
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Concrete floors will make the downstairs rooms cold unless they're covered with a good thickness of underfelt and carpet.
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Have you checked the room temp against the thermostat ?
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I assume none of the radiators need bleeding (cold at the top, hot at the bottom), or are sludged up (hot at the top, cold at the bottom mid-point between the pipes)?
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Not really to bring anything to the party, but to remphasise some of what has already been said:
1. Turn all the TRVs to maximum.
2. Put half a turn on the balance valves upstairs, so as to reduce water flow. (If they're all completely open - they may be if the system has never been balanced - then it will take considerably more than half a turn.)
3. See what happens.
4. Get some thick (interlined) Roman blinds for your windows. I've just had some made for the side of my drawing room away from the road which doesn't have secondary DG. The difference to the temperature is extraordinary.
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All the radiators are working fine - no cold spots at the top. I tend to check then every so often to see if they need bleeding.
Windows might be an idea. We have got quite large (UPVC double glazing) windows in our house, quite a nice feature (in the summer) but could be the source of some heat loss in the winter!
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I am probably talking absolute rubbish but I thought that TRV's regulated the water flow through a radiator and the stop valve on the other end should be wide open. The system balancing is only required if TRV's are not used, to compensate for there only being one thermostat in a downstairs area.
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>> I am probably talking absolute rubbish but I thought that TRV's regulated the water flow
>> through a radiator and the stop valve on the other end should be wide open.
>> The system balancing is only required if TRV's are not used, to compensate for there
>> only being one thermostat in a downstairs area.
I did wonder about this originally but quite a few people (not just on here) have mentioned balancing I assumed you must still balance rads with TRVs on.
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Its probably a urban myth that was applied to TRV systems (we have always balanced systems so why should TRV's be different). Hopefully someone with recent training on the subject will turn up.
All my radiators have TRV's, the stop valves are all wide open and I run different rooms at different temperatures.
Can someone explain why you need to throttle back a radiator when it has a thermostat fitted?
Last edited by: Old Navy on Tue 25 Jan 11 at 16:09
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>>Can someone explain why you need to throttle back a radiator when it has a thermostat fitted?<<<
When the system has reached a stable state it probably does not matter that much. However if you were trying to heat from cold the rads with the TRV would probably grab all the flow, with a reduction in flow to the other rooms. You would probably also experience some problems if in extreme conditions your system could not cope with the heat loss from the property.
It makes me wonder what happens if the flow rate is so high that the temperature of the returning water to the boiler is very high (ie the temp drop in the system is low). The bolier stat will probably cause the boiler to cut in and out. On modern systems it may get even more complicated?
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To expand on pmh...
The first *balance* is designing the radiator sizes as far as possible to heat the various rooms to the correct temp given a certain water flow. Next is to size the pipework layout so as to deliver the correct water flow to each radiator.
But the above can never be exact so the manual balancing on the secondary rad valve is required to get the system as near as possible before any thermo controls are added. Finally either just a single stat or individual rad TRvs are fitted.
The pump will always try and move the water round the path of least resistance... and that is usually the radiator/s on the larger pipework legs nearest to the boiler.
So you have a cold house and switch on the heating.... If all the rad secondary valves are wide open because you have TRVs then the water heated by the boiler will tend to go round and round the part of the circuit with the nearest rad to the boiler and the rest of the system will be slow (or fail to) to heat. Of course this first rad will get red hot so in time it will heat the room and hopefully cause the TRV to shut down when the next rad in turn from the boiler will do the same... and so on.
Of course in real life it is all a bit more subtle but it is known that TRVs can fail to control room temps properly if they are made to do all the work with the other valve open full bore.
If you are balancing bear in mind the secondary valve is pretty well full open at 1 to 1.5 turns from shut so most of the control is done in the 0.25 to 1 turn open range.
Unless they have a remote sensor head TRVs are crude in their temp control as they do not detect room temp but the temp of the air very close to the warm radiator.
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>>Can someone explain why you need to throttle back a radiator when it has a thermostat fitted?
Because on OP's system that isn't working with the TRVs that are fitted set up in the way you suggest (balance valve fully open).
(Presumably.
Maybe I'm naive. Maybe this is a joke posting, waiting for somebody to say: try turning down the thermostats on the radiators upstairs...)
Hence my suggestion to open the TRVs to maximum and try to set the system up properly. Like wot he says:
www.telegraph.co.uk/property/propertyadvice/jeffhowell/8250191/Home-improvements-What-is-the-point-of-a-TRV.html
(A little like a certain hatted gentleman he writes some rot, but he also writes some good stuff, this article fits into the latter category - just IMVHO of course.)
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Tue 25 Jan 11 at 16:38
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>>
>> Hence my suggestion to open the TRVs to maximum and try to set the system
>> up properly. Like wot he says:
>>
>> www.telegraph.co.uk/property/propertyadvice/jeffhowell/8250191/Home-improvements-What-is-the-point-of-a-TRV.html
>>
>> (A little like a certain hatted gentleman he writes some rot, but he also writes
>> some good stuff, this article fits into the latter category - just IMVHO of course.)
>>
The article rubbishes TRVs without suggesting an alternative means of varying temperatures in different rooms, seems pretty pointless. I agree that their wholesale fitting by government edict is daft though.
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>> Hopefully someone with recent training on the subject will turn up.
Perhaps I can be of some help? :)
Balancing the radiators is only necessary when first setting up a central heating system because without it the radiator nearest the boiler will extract too much heat from the water too quickly, leaving less heat energy for the next nearest radiator, and so on until the water reaching the furthest radiator is too cool to be of any use. TRVs do not control the temperature of the radiators, they merely control the flow of the hot water as it circulates through them.
Radiator sizing is determined by a number of factors, including the coefficient of thermal energy transmission through the building fabric (U-value). The higher the U-value the more heat flows through the building material, so a good U-value is a low one as you want to keep heat inside the building. Snakey's problem is likely to be caused by poor insulation downstairs in his house, or to get technical his concrete floor will have a relatively high U-value. A detached house will also, obviously, lose more heat than a terraced one.
Different rooms have different perceived comfort levels - from my college paperwork a "comfortable" room temperature for a hallway / landing would be 16°C, for a bedroom would be 18°C but for a living room or dining room the perceived comfortable temperature would be higher at 21°C.
What I do to keep my living room warm without overheating the rest of the house is enforce a keep-doors-closed rule, tuck the curtains up onto the window sills to allow air to circulate around the radiators freely, and put on a jumper and a pair of slippers.
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My grandparents house had a door at the bottom of the stairs, which presumably was to stop heat escaping upstairs.
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Right I'm definitely going to have a go at balancing the rads - Do I start with the upstairs ones or does it not matter?
Come to think of it, which radiators get the heat first, upstairs or downstairs?
To balance them I guess I shut the balance valve completely, then crack it open a quarter/half turn to start with. Then check the rad still gets hot?
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>> which radiators get the heat first, upstairs or downstairs?
Switch the heating on from cold, then run around the house feeling each rad in turn (Not joking, this is actually what you have to do). In general you should be looking to shut down the radiators closest to the boiler and open up those furthest away.
If you have TRVs on all the radiators, there should actually be one without a TRV (usually in the bathroom) - so that the pump cannot run against a completely closed-off system should all the TRVs reach temperature. The non-TRV radiator is usually the one piped closest to the boiler.
The best way to adjust the balance of each radiator is with a thermometer/s of some sort to check the flow and return temperatures (either clip-on or infra-red), failing that just set them all midway to start with and adjust half a turn at a time. Then check individual room temperatures over a few days and tweak as necessary. As mentioned in a post above, it could take several days' tweaking to find the optimum settings for you.
Note: Never leave any valve completely shut or completely open, as they tend to seize in those positions. Always back it off 1/8th of a turn from either end stop.
Hth.
Last edited by: Dave_TD {P} on Wed 26 Jan 11 at 13:08
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I'm starting to look at central heating in a whole new light....
I'm pretty sure the upstairs rads get hot first. I'll try starting with them first, I might be able to get hold of an infrared thermometer.
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>> If you have TRVs on all the radiators, there should actually be one without a TRV (usually in the bathroom) - so that the pump cannot run against a completely closed-off system should all the TRVs reach temperature. The non-TRV radiator is usually the one piped closest to the boiler.
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Or as in my house when the boiler was installed 16 years ago, there was a bypass built into the pipework. It is an extra leg of pipe bypassing the the control valves. It has a normal stopcock in it but the installer set the rate of flow and then removed the crutch handle.
He said that when demand from the boiler stopped the pump was timed to continue to run to disipate the boiler heat.
We had no TRVs at that time.
A friend recently had his boiler die and needed to have it replaced.
The job cannot be fully certified untill all rads are fitted with TRV so the advice from Dave_TD appears to only apply to old systems.
So if TRVs go with new boilers it seems a good idea, if you are staying longtern in you home,
to fit TRVs prior to having any new floor covering in any room as in my experience at least one pipe has to be moved to neatly fit a TRV.
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Heating a house , downstairs cooler than upstairs - Bigtee
