My wee Golf's been off the road over the winter, few things needed doing. Finally completed reassembling everything i'd stripped out last year, went to start it:
- No starter motor
- No clicking noise
- Fuel pump audibly running when key at position 3
- Battery smoking
I say battery smoking, i didn't actually see the smoke coming out of the battery, but there's not much else right there in the engine bay. Acrid smell.
The engine turns free enough (compression resistance excepted) using a bar on the crank pulley.
Lights and central locking still work (although i've since disconnected the battery).
At a guess i'm going to say starter motor.
Google says i should be checking for 12v at the spade connector with the fatter wire on the solenoid. Then it says it should short the two posts and see if the starter motor spins.
There's a possibility that in reassembling the engine's ancilliaries i've missed reconnecting a plug somewhere. I disturbed a lot of connectors around the fuel rail area, although not much in the vicinity of the gearbox.
Any tips or pointers? Anything jump out? Warnings?
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>> There's a possibility that in reassembling the engine's ancilliaries i've missed reconnecting a plug somewhere.
Things that have been done, anything i can think of that might be relevant:
- Full service inc. fuel filter
- 1 x HT lead potentially dodgy but not replaced, was planning on hearing the engine running first
- Water pump (recycled old timing belt / tensioner since they were <1k miles old)
- High pressure pump > rack power steering pipe (not done by me but have inspected, all seems fine, no connectors would have been disturbed). I filled the reservoir and was planning to bleed / topup once the engine was running
- We did get -17 here one night and a few other chilly nights, but there was G12+ pink coolant in plentiful mixture at all times.
- Bunch of other stuff but not related to engine mechanicals, but done by a proper mechanic so no concerns there
Last edited by: Skoda on Sat 22 Jan 11 at 17:23
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Clicking noise suggests insufficient battery power or sticking starter solenoid is a possibility.
Either clout the starter with a ball/pein hammer, or put car in highish gear and rock forwards and backwards.
If latter, make sure ignition is off, and you have a few yards of clearance at the front and back of the car.
Last edited by: Iffy on Sat 22 Jan 11 at 17:32
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Remove and clean battery terminals.
Try jump leads.
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The "battery smoking" bit worries me. Haven't I heard that a faulty battery under load can overheat and even explode, sending acid everywhere?
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Yeah it concerns me too. The bit i don't get is i thought there were fusable links between the battery and starter. Was expecting them to go rather than the battery to start smoking.
The battery itself is brand new, fully charged and it's a decent quality one. Just hoping i've not done it any damage, it was only smoking for a few seconds of key turning before i came round to investigate.
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If the battery terminals are dirty, causing a resistive path, and there's moisture about, then heat can be generated, resulting in water vapour being visible, which may appear to be smoke.
Have you cleaned the battery connections?
What happens if you try it by using jump leads to a known good battery?
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poor engine / starter motor to body earths.
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As above - one by one go through each of the heavy duty connections between battery and starter, and then back via the earth path to the battery - physically separate them all, clean them off, and reassemble with a smear of vaseline or similar to keep out corrosion.
I was once standing beside an open battery box as the truck was started, or starting was attempted - there was a bad connection on one of the battery terminals, and it overheated so quickly, the battery post melted away, and the molten lead dripped onto the floor. Using a battery clamp as a mould, my father rebuilt the terminal using a few self tappers screwed into the remaining stub to provide a key, heat from the oxy-acetylene and some body solder.
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Sounds elementary but is the battery connected the right way around? That will melt the wires and make it smoke... changed a battery back in the old days in the dark, didnt go so well!
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Cheers for this Guys.
Stu - yeah definitely the right way round but good shout anyway.
Zero & NC thanks for those. I disassembled and thoroughly cleaned (pretty corroded, esp the positive - starter connection) and reassembled all the connections.
Tested resistance from all over the engine / gearbox etc. (also bodyshell for completeness) to the negative lead and all low and settling to equal value.
Put the battery back in, full beam lights on, tested the voltage after a couple of mins, 12.6 odd.
Helper to turn the key with headlights on, headlights go out completely, single click heard.
Try again, but no click the second time. Lights out again though. Third time, no click, lights out.
Sticking solenoid?
Tested continuity from starter positive feed to negative battery lead. Getting intermittent, hard to replicate chirrups when initially connecting the multimeter. I don't understand why that would happen. I'm guessing a short inside the motor could cause it.
Any other pointers to narrow down the cause?
Many thanks
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...Sticking solenoid?...
Have you tried hitting it or rocking the car in gear?
Much simpler than pratting around with a multimeter and trying to interpret the results.
Alternatively, you mention a 'helper', so can you push or tow start the car?
If it starts and runs OK, that almost certainly narrows your problem down to the starter motor.
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Try jump starting the critter, put the doner + jump lead onto the + terminal of your battery,
and the doner - jump lead straight onto your injun block.
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If you leave the multimeter connected to the battery posts, and watch the voltage reading during cranking, you'll be able to rule out the battery itself. The battery voltage should remain above 10 volts for the entire duration of cranking - if it falls below 10 volts, fit a new battery.
The voltage reading while the battery is unloaded, or lightly loaded, isn't massively meaningful, and it's only when you're actually demanding some real power that the voltage really tells you anything.
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Gave it a couple of thumps with a hammer. No joy.
Tried shoving it in gear, see if it needed freeing off or something. No joy.
Bump starting's not an option just now - if it doesn't start off the ramp at the end of the driveway, i'll never push it myself back up and neighbour's offskis for the day.
Tried jump starting it yesterday from a known good great big battery, but same behaviour - no cranking, single click from the solenoid. Lights go off.
Decided to remove the starter. There's a tiny bit of free play to turn it either direction before the resistance of the motor spinning. No repair kits listed on ebay so wont bother trying to fix it myself. Job for tomorrow is to find an auto electrician to have a look see. Might mess about with jump leads on it and do the shower of sparks thing, see if it spins outside the car.
Many thanks for all your help guys, much appreciated!
Last edited by: VxFan on Sun 23 Jan 11 at 17:37
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Went to see a man about a dog last night. Turns out he knows about starter motors too...
Pretty obvious when it's pointed out to you, but this is the first starter motor i've ever held in my hands. There's a braided strap runs from the solenoid down to the starter body, it's unprotected and it'd just mostly corroded away. A wee poke with a screwdriver disintegrated it.
That's another £240* saved into the new jeep fund...
* £240 for a new starter motor, or £130 for a recon Bosch on exchange. Jeezo.
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...There's a braided strap runs from the solenoid down to the starter body...
I've seen some made of mild steel, which would last a lot longer.
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The idea behind the braided strap is to allow for vibration. A mild steel strap could snap through fatique by being continually jiggled.
Odd the braided strap was made from material that would corrode and not from something non-ferrous.
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Well, stripped down and recon'd today, here's a photo of the brush holder with the new braided strap soldered on and prepared for reassembly. The red bit in the middle is a 3in1 oil can cap with the top lopped off on the band saw. The cap retains the spring loaded brushes and the whole assembly is popped back in over the centre shaft, the cap withdrawn and everything pops nicely into place.
picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/UUivbJHOHgUu63DFJObOsF4V3YSJsyfCI5mpfev7Bxc?feat=directlink
Nice trick, i liked it. Rest of the motor / solenoid checked out, cleaned, everything fine. Surprisingly good condition throughout. The donor strap came from a late 70's VW starter motor, also Bosch, it was surprising good inside too, so i guess it wins in the longevity stakes.
EDIT: tested out on the floor, sweet as a nut after reassembly. Testing before revealed the smoke i'd seen wasn't the battery, it was from the starter, same smoke same smell.
Last edited by: Skoda on Mon 24 Jan 11 at 15:41
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Just to tie this off. Refitted starter this morning, took a deep breath and turned the key...
Success! Engine fired first time. Think folks in the next town could hear my sigh of relief :-)
Couple of odds and sods needing doing now - that HT lead i identified as suspect above probably is shot. Have got a misfire and it's one of those all-in-one coil packs they used to use between the switch over from Dizzys to Coil on Plugs, and the spark plugs are new, pre-gapped three headed ones.
Everything else seems fine, will need to buy insurance this afternoon then get it down for an MOT this weekend.
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Volkswagen Golf IV - 98 1.6 Car wont start, battery smoking - Skoda
