Is it just me or are modern cars appalling if you actually want to be able to see out of them or doing anything radical like reverse park?? Borrowed a sportwagon and the back window is like a letter box. Other cars I see around also have stupidly thick c pillars so won't be much better. How do people actually manage to reverse park these things without banging into other vehicles?
I went to the supermarket and it was seriously full. Only space I could find I'd have to reverse into. Couldn't do it as I couldn't see where the corner of the car was as the exact spot for judging this was a ruddy pillar. Not happy. In any of the other cars I have it would have been no trouble at all. No wonder there are so many cars around with dents!
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I suspect more 'crush ability' is being put into modern cars to up their NCAP ratings.
Any car designers here?
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Sportwagon! These euphemisms make me cringe. Avant, Touring, etc.
By virtue of trying to give Mr Family-man-but-still-wants-to-be-seen-as-Jack-the-Lad an estate car that looks "cool", manufacturers have created the automotive equivalent of the 'sweep-over'.
The car is less practical than an 'estate', visibility is hampered by the lack of tail-end boxiness, seats-up bootspace is often inferior to the hatch it is based upon....
....and it still looks like you're driving an estate car!
What next.. the Vauhall Bobby C(h)arlton ?
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The Insignia needs a good imagination to reverse it. Still regularly see people walking behind those reversing out of parking spaces.
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What a bunch of girls; just use the mirrors, simples!
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The mirrors don't help completely if you are reversing around another car as you can't judge the distance you are away from it as accurately as being able to see through a section of glass. With most spaces you only have a maximum of a foot either side so you have to be very sure of where you are. It wasn't possible to tell with the mirrors how far away I was at all. Reversing straight is ok but not when you are going at an angle.
It was hard enough getting it onto the drive by reversing. All the visual cues were missing for judging position.
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>> The mirrors don't help completely if you are reversing around another car as you can't
>> judge the distance you are away from it as accurately as being able to see
>> through a section of glass.
Utter cock. Lorry drivers manage it with a dirty great big 44 foot trailer on the back.
Car drivers simply are not taught to use their wing mirrors when reversing, and the habit sticks.
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>> Car drivers simply are not taught to use their wing mirrors when reversing, and the
>> habit sticks.
>>
Spot on H'man, and it is so easy when the technique has been learned.
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Lorries and trailers are also perfectly square rather than with all sorts of curved bits. Square things are much easier to judge than curved backends which stick out beyond where you can see easily. When you only have a few inches wiggle room it makes the difference between being sure you can fit in a space to being unsure enough that you don't want to risk damaging someone else's property. The mirrors on alfas are also particularly pants. Could have done it easily just with mirrors with my usual car as it is nice and square and the mirrors actually have a reasonable field of view. The combination of carp rear visibility and carp mirrors make the alfa much harder to reverse in tight spaces when you don't know the car at all.
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Being a girl, I resent that remark:)
I always reverse on my mirrors.
Big girls blouse is the term you were looking for, I think!
Pat
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>> What a bunch of girls; just use the mirrors, simples!
>>
Beat me to it!
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Oops, new here! Didn't intend any offence Pat!
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It's a luxury when I can see out of any rear window. Usually means I'm off work too so I'm in a doubly good mood !
Door mirrors and memory most of the time.
Oh and I've got beepy things now. Those could make you lazy.
Last edited by: Humph D'Bout on Wed 15 Dec 10 at 18:41
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No offence taken :)
They sling enough my way on here so I get used to it!
Pat
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My present car has lousy rear visibility. And with age I have become a lot less good at squirming round in the driver's seat and hurtling backwards steering with my left arm behind my back.
So I use the mirrors now, and go gently, and listen for the device that squeaks with increasibg urgency when the car gets to within a couple of feet of an obstacle. One of the mirrors is convex, the other isn't. That has made me tap and graunch things a couple of times. I'm crap at reversing these days. I've always found though that some cars are a doddle to reverse compared to others.
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There must be more to it than just visibility. The best car i've had for reversing was a wee Corsa C, that's got big c pillars with rear lights in, not exactly great for visibility but still extremely easy to reverse.
The rear wheels are right in the back corners of the car, wonder if that's what made the difference.
Last edited by: Skoda on Wed 15 Dec 10 at 18:54
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Some modern cars have bad visibility built in - the ones where it looks like someone has squashed them from the top, for instance... They are usually sold as "being able to play with the city"... Like a blind person does I suppose!
The other weak point is the A pillar, probably as said before for strength... The Roomie is not good, but the Meriva was positively dangerous in this respect...
If you try driving a family car from the 70s you realise just how bad things have become!
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They design it in such a way so that they can sell you parking sensors as accessories. :-)
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Forget reversing. The forward angled view in the S-Max is not great. Two great pillars in the way.
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The standard taught method of looking over ones shoulder to reverse belongs to the 1970's, when cars usually had bigger back windows, wing mirrors and no headrests.
I'd be interested to know if other countries teach in different ways.
I would tend to agree that, safety issues apart, rear-view design, or the lack of it, is a triumph of style over practicality in modern cars.
Incidentally, bad design in this respect is not confined to cars. My Volvo truck has an appalling blind spot caused by the design of the nearside mirrorcluster, which necessitates removal of seatbelt at difficult junctions in order to be able to see oncoming cars.
Last edited by: Harleyman on Wed 15 Dec 10 at 20:03
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...The forward angled view in the S-Max is not great. Two great pillars in the way...
Same in the CC3.
The combination of thick pillars and a steeply raked screen is a poor one.
Visibility from my mate's new Sante Fe is much better.
The windscreen pillars are thick, but because they are more upright, they are easier to look around.
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>
>> The combination of thick pillars and a steeply raked screen is a poor one.
Well at least the dashboard stays dry then......
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Reversing in my estate is a cinch. Narrow rear door pillars coupled with the end finishing at the rear window means you can judge it well. Bad NCAP rating though.
Judging when to steer when reversing is trickier because although it's narrow, it's also a car with a long wheelbase, so takes longer to react to steering input. Cars now are so much bigger with thick pillars to conform to NCAP standards, to the detriment of visibility. I can't believe how big a Focus is when parked next to my car - much wider and taller, if not longer. The Ford Escort is tiny in comparison - it also had the crash resistance of a baked bean can.
What would you rather have, something that may be marginally harder to see out of, but one day may save your life, or thin pillars, large glass areas, and a high probability of being in a wheelchair or worse in an accident?
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>> Reversing in my estate is a cinch ...
>> ... how big a Focus is ...
>> What would you rather have ...
The BMW... just saying... ;-)
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It's taken me two months to spot that the beeps from the parking sensors on the new BMW actually come out the speaker of the side of the car where the obstruction is located.
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Now that's quite cool. Even if the beepy things are by definition for rubbish parkers. I've become quite, well a bit, sort of, ever so slightly, a fan of my beepy things. Not that I'll ever need them of course, oh no, not me...pah !
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You all drive the wrong cars or are incompetent reversers .. or both...
Reverse using wing mirrors: piece of cake..
Any fool can do it.. - well if I can , so can you .:-)
Last edited by: madf on Wed 15 Dec 10 at 20:32
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>> You all drive the wrong cars or are incompetent reversers .. or both...
>>
>> Reverse using wing mirrors: piece of cake..
>>
>> Any fool can do it.. - well if I can , so can you .:-)
>>
Just incompetent drivers.
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>> What would you rather have, something that may be marginally harder to see out of,
>> but one day may save your life, or thin pillars, large glass areas, and a
>> high probability of being in a wheelchair or worse in an accident?
>>
Or, to paraphrase:
Would you rather have adequate visibility in order to prevent an accident, or have a higher probability of having an accident due to poor visibility?
I would rather have a car with good visibility AND a strong passenger cell.
That is possible, but would make the vehicle heavier due to more metal in the A, B, and C posts.
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I have been driving cars with rubbish rear visibility for so long, using mirrors has become second nature.
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Crickey that's twice today I've agreed with you Z. Are you on new medication or something ?
:-)
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Z must be on something, I agree too.
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Normal service resumed tomorrow I assume.
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Could someone explain to me how to judge distance in a mirror?
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Exactly the same way you do by spinning your head around. All the same visual clues are in the mirror as they are through your rear window.
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Not really Iffy, it's just practice and in my case Hobson's choice. The sort of crunchy grindy noises are quite a good clue at first until you have the knack.
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>> Could someone explain to me how to judge distance in a mirror?
>>
>>
>>
As Meatloaf said (or rather sang) "Objects in the rear view mirror may be closer than they appear", basically you work it out from the perspective of the rear wing of your own vehicle and/or roadside fixtures like signs and lamp-posts.
If you still can't do it, I'd respectfully suggest that you either employ a chauffeur or obtain a bus pass, cos if you can't judge distances in a mirror you will also have trouble judging them in front of you.
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...I'd respectfully suggest that you either employ a chauffeur or obtain a bus pass, cos if you can't judge distances in a mirror you will also have trouble judging them in front of you...
Harleyman,
Why the insult?
For the benefit of members who have not forgotten their manners:
Lots of people struggle to judge distances in a mirror.
It's the same as trying to judge distances looking at a photograph.
A mirror image is a two-dimensional one, similar to a photograph.
It's not a bit like looking through a windscreen.
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>>
>> Why the insult?
>> Lots of people struggle to judge distances in a mirror.
>>
No insult intended. There's no nice way to say that if you cannot judge distances, you're a hazard to other drivers. Sorry.
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It is not as much distance as the gap between the side of your car and whatever you are parking next to. The gap should not be opening, or closing (both sides) if you are reversing into a narrow space. when it comes to distance to the back of your car, that is down to judgement, or these days bleepy things, but beware the post the bleepy things don't see.
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Good rearwardvisiblity and good safety are not mutually exclusive; both my Hyundai Coupe and the preceding BMW 525 were fine in this respect, and the current i10 isn't too bad. In fairness we rarely have rear seat passengers which does help, since the rear headrests are permanently in the lowest position.
I'm also a firm believer in the theory that safer cars make for worse drivers.
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Mind it falls apart when they make slitty small mirrors to go with your slitty small window.
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The Colt is carp around the 'A' pillars. Can't see a ruddy thing at times, but they're all the same now. Crash protection cells or whatever the correct terminology is. Still, we can't have it all ways.
M
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Mind you. When I observe the LWB Master van with a 10ft trailer attached + the 'A' bar it seems quite long. (This is where you Lorry drivers can Butt Out..:)) ), but I have to say there are very few places that I can't place it around our tight lanes etc., AND I mean reversing too.
As for reversing any vehicle I only ever use the side mirrors. Where is the value looking straight through a rear window. Not for me I'm afraid.
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>> Still, we can't have it all ways.
>>
But we can!!!!!
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The thing is when I look in the mirrors I see George Clooney looking back at me.
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That's funny, so do I. Although in some lights it's more like Pierce Brosnan.
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>> That's funny, so do I. Although in some lights it's more like Pierce Brosnan.
I don't think so, both can do ümlauts,
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Umlaut doesn't have an umlaut.
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You haven't got one at all!
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I might have. I just don't know where to look for it.
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Humph,
Try Googling 'unicode characters'.
Someone might then tell us how to use them.
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>> Humph,
>>
>> Try Googling 'unicode characters'.
>>
>> Someone might then tell us how to use them.
Or maybe ñót
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Don't need you now ! Ha ! ^
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Von Gefühlen überwältigt jetzt. Kein problem.
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>> That's funny, so do I. Although in some lights it's more like Pierce Brosnan.
It's a shame no one came up with that one in the 'guess what they look like' thread.
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I guess neither of us wanted to brag...
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>> The thing is when I look in the mirrors I see George Clooney looking back
>> at me.
>>
And you wonder why we don't believe a word you say. :-)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 15 Dec 10 at 21:06
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A brace of Clooney's then!
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My car has beepy things and I am so used to using them and my mirrors I can't remember the last time I did an "arm over the front headrest and twist round" maneouvre!
I can reverse park the work Transit to the proverbial baw hair away from an obstacle by using either the reflection of the lights as they get brighter on the wall, or by looking at the position of the back wheel.
For a good few years I had a driveway that was so narrow that you could reverse the car down it to access the back garage, but the driveway itself was so narrow you couldn't open the car door on it. Reversing with mirrors was the only way to do that!
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Manoeuvering with these modern designs doesn't bother me too much, as i'd never buy an Insignia for instance with it's twee make up mirrors on either door...oddly enough as cars have got progressively larger mirrors have become part of the vehicles styling and proportionately smaller.
Agree with the comments about stylish estates above too, all image and nbg.
Remember just how good the mirrors were on Mk5 Cortina for instance.
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Good mirrors have been a requirement choice for me for some time.
The Altea had excellent mirrors, deep and wide. The lancer mirrors are also good, with a nice wide view in the "over the shoulder" dimension.
Vectra mirrors were shocking,
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 15 Dec 10 at 22:06
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>> Vectra mirrors were shocking,
Vectra-B?
Never had a problem with them. In the 3 or 4 years I drove one I could see perfectly well with the mirrors.
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Beepy things are like SatNav a technical aid that's all MK1 eyeball is the best tool. BTW the X1 has crap rear visibility !
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Legislation is currently at an advanced stage in the States to make reversing cameras mandatory on all cars from 2014, with Ford already signed up to "most of their range" from 2012.
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Now that's something I don't like or get on with.
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>> make reversing cameras mandatory on all cars from 2014
Yet they will not make the more sensible choice, design the car so that people don't need reversing cameras!
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I've lost the knack of turning round and looking out of the back window. I can do it with the door mirrors to within millimetres though.
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>> Legislation is currently at an advanced stage in the States to make reversing cameras mandatory
>> on all cars from 2014, with Ford already signed up to "most of their range"
>> from 2012.
>>
Drove a rental car (well a Cadillac Escalade) in the US recently with a reversing camera and I thought it was absolutely brilliant. I guessed it was very much done from a safety point of view as the camera was near enough pointing straight down. That would enable also extremely close manoevering - not that that's necessary in the US.
A girl was killed near us when a car reversed into her and being able to reverse with absolute confidence that there's nothing there was very reassuring.
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>> >> Legislation is currently at an advanced stage in the States to make reversing cameras
>> mandatory
All because the stylists can't design a car with decent visibility... so we car buyers have to pay through the nose for their stupidity... Mad!
Last edited by: hobby on Thu 16 Dec 10 at 19:24
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If you've seen American driving, you would not be surprised if they mandated "forwarding" cameras.
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>> If you've seen American driving, you would not be surprised if they mandated "forwarding" cameras.
>>
>>
This is no exaggeration. When someone coming in the opposite direction is waiting at a light to turn left, they will wait until you are right on top of them before doing so. If you're going to drive here, ALWAYS have a foot over the brake approaching the lights.
Also, cars waiting to come out of a side turning will wait until the last possible second before pulling out in front of you under full power - and then slowing right down (because speeding's dangerous, right?)
On the expressways if you're not in the left lane, I guarantee somebody will ALWAYS be sat in your blind spot.
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>> >> If you've seen American driving, you would not be surprised if they mandated "forwarding"
>> cameras.
I know that American tour busses have a camera attached to the windscreen that looks both ways, You are told not to stand up while the bus is moving. If you do and go apex over elbow don't bother to sue, it is on record, and also why the driver braked / swerved. It is a requirement of the bus companies insurers.
Americans don't drive, they move around in cars, unfortunately it has caught on here too.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 19 Dec 10 at 09:58
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>> Americans don't drive, they move around in cars, unfortunately it has caught on here too.
Yup.
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...If you do and go apex over elbow don't bother to sue, it is on record...
Some service buses in this country have several cameras pointing both inside and out.
Part of the reason is to prevent false personal injury claims in the event of a minor bump.
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>> What next.. the Vauhall Bobby C(h)arlton ?
or the hill (nor)man hunter?
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>> Is it just me or are modern cars appalling if you actually want to be
>> able to see out of them or doing anything radical like reverse park??
It certainly is not you. I can barely see out of my Chrysler 300 at all. They add massive A-pillars to improve safety but they cut visibility to the point that it makes it harder to avoid accidents in the first place. And the back window is like looking through a letter box!
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I always reverse into the garage using wing mirrors. Easy when you practise.
Anyone who complains and then does not practise reversing somehwere safe is either lazy or incompetent..
Now: there's a motivation for those who can't reverse properly..:-)
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>> Anyone who complains and then does not practise reversing somehwere safe is either lazy or
>> incompetent..
>>
Got it in one. :-)))))
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Buy a whopping great Volvo 240 estate with a magically small turning circle and reversing is a piece of cake. If you don't like or can't drive modern cars, why buy them?
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>> If you don't like or can't drive modern cars, why
>> buy them?
Car design is a compromise. You can have a deeper boot at the expense of reduced rear visibility. I don't like the reduced visibility but I accept it in order to have the deeper boot, which I do like.
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>> I always reverse into the garage using wing mirrors.
An old car then?
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I always reverse into the garage using wing mirrors.
For just one moment, only one Dave, I thought you'd written that...:-)
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>> I always reverse into the garage using wing mirrors.
So both madf and you do it the same way.
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>> How do people actually
>> manage to reverse park these things without banging into other vehicles?
We have reversing sensors.
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I'm surprised at the number of people on here who can see perspective in a two-dimensional image.
Do you all have X-ray vision as well?
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>> I'm surprised at the number of people on here who can see perspective in a
>> two-dimensional image.
>>
>> Do you all have X-ray vision as well?
>>
>>
Lorry drivers aren't superhuman, so if they can do it so can car drivers, if they could be bothered to learn how. If you can't be bothered to learn how, don't complain if you can't do it.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 16 Dec 10 at 08:59
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...If you can't be bothered to learn how, don't complain if you can't do it...
1. Why be so tetchy all the time?
2. I'm not complaining, so stop putting words in my mouth, and stop making bold statements you cannot substantiate about what I can, or cannot be bothered to do.
There is no perspective in a mirror image.
All you can do is make assumptions about what you see, based on further assumptions about the size and position of objects and people.
These are often correct, but not always.
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>> 1. Why be so tetchy all the time?
>>
Me? I am in an armchair, feet up, watching TV and the snow gently falling, with a coffee within reach and the OH is out for a coffee morning. I believe "cool" is the current phrase. You may be confusing the truth for tetchyness.
>> All you can do is make assumptions about what you see, based on further assumptions
>> about the size and position of objects and people.
>>
That statement indicates to me that you have not grasped the basics of mirror reversing.
:-)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 16 Dec 10 at 09:35
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"There is no perspective in a mirror image." Surely there is, just as there is in a painting or a drawing.
John
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I'm really confused. People are stating there is no perspective in a mirror image? Really? Think about that for a second and then try again.
Looking in a mirror is not the same as looking at a TV image of the scene. There are still two perspectives, one for each eye, and the focal distance is the same as if you were the same distance behind the mirror looking past it at the scene. The information is all there in exactly the same way. This is why replacing a mirror with a camera in a car is not necessarily a good thing - you don't need to readjust from infinity when glancing in mirrors, you would for screens.
Don't believe me? Try making a simple drawing of the scene.
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>>>There is no perspective in a mirror image.
So why do further away items look smaller.
If there were no perspective, they would look the same size..
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A mirror gives you exactly the same 3D view as you would get looking through that sized hole at the scene beyond!! Good grief people, think!!
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Except of course when the mirror is convex or concave, its not the same view at all.
BUt even so. its still not an issue in reversing.
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Fair point Z, a plane-mirror will give you exactly the same scene. There will still be perspective, or at least 3D, which is I think what people on this thread are actually referring to.
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>> I'm surprised at the number of people on here who can see perspective in a
>> two-dimensional image.
>>
>> Do you all have X-ray vision as well?
You dont need perspective. All the visual clues are there. Its really not that hard for most of us.
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>> I'm surprised at the number of people on here who can see perspective in a
>> two-dimensional image.
>>
>> Do you all have X-ray vision as well?
>>
>>
>>
No . Like Pavlov's dogs, humans have an adaptive learning system based on practise making perfect.
If you don't practise... you are like the current Australian cricket team.. or the English football team... (rubbish)
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People with one eye can drive perfectly well. Perspective? who needs it.
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Yeah. Rubbish at running the economy though. :-)
John
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>> Yeah. Rubbish at running the economy though. :-)
>> John
>>
But GB didn't drive, and some would say he had no perspective either.
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>> People with one eye can drive perfectly well. Perspective? who needs it.
>>
Exactly. It is one of those urban myths that we need two eyes to judge distance and see perspective. It certainly helps, but basically we judge distance by applying accumulated experience to the current situation.
That is why it is possible to fool even people with two eyes using tricks of light, or lines set at unconventional angles.
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I dunno.
My grandpa taught me to reverse by mirrors, so that's what i did for years.
Then i learned to look in the space before reversing using mirrors, that solved all the problems of mirrors alone that had me wanting to look back. Great.
Since i got the Octavia, i've taken to reversing it 50% of the time on the mirrors (they're *massive*) and 50% looking out through the back.
There's just more information available that way - this is the first car i've had with 5 windows (estate) to see the world through at the back. I still reverse the 7 and the golf on mirrors though.
To comic effect in the Golf, the car always ends up, perfectly square, but visibly in the rear left of a parking space... big cars reference points :-)
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When I got a holiday job involving driving a large van with a tail-lift, for supermarket deliveries, the warehouse manager took me for some practice reversing. First thing: plan where you need to go, (as Skoda has mentioned) and observe the layout and width available as you drive up or even past. Look for personnel and tell them to get away if they're not helping to back in. Most of the staff hanging around the delivery area made themselves scarce if there was anything to do, so usually it was solo. Second: slowly back up using something fixed as a reference point (loading bay upright etc) If you had enough room to get in, driving accurately towards the point of reference gets you into place 100%. Going slowly means it won't matter too much if you crunch the loading bay deck. This was before HSE came into being, so "backing in" help wasn't emphasised.
Last edited by: NortonES2 on Thu 16 Dec 10 at 14:02
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I always back in so that I can drive out. You're far more likely to notice hazards on arrival than on departure.
I'm amused that people think that looking in a mirror is like looking at a postcard. Presumably these people also think that looking through a flat window is like looking at a postcard...!!!
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This is a repeat post.
The big Tesco in Portobello Road has a goods entrance round the corner in Westbourne Park Road, a deep tunnel with about two or three feet of clearance around a typical Tesco artic.
The drivers reverse in in one go usually, from a road which is quite busy and quite narrow, with parking on both sides. It's a pleasure to witness this which must happen several times a week.
Car drivers (especially me)?
Tchah! Ptui! rubbish!
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 26 Jul 11 at 10:26
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Excellent advice and still valid now.
Pat
Edit: this should have appeared under Nortons post.
Last edited by: pda on Thu 16 Dec 10 at 14:16
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He was a good driver: rallying etc in his tuned Mini. Never been so scared, when he demonstrated what it would do around the lanes near Alsagers Bank.
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>> Edit: this should have appeared under Nortons post.
It has. If you hover your mouse over the up arrow at the start of the subject header you'll see that your post is tagged onto his - can also be seen in threaded view as well.
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 16 Dec 10 at 20:56
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I struggle with the Mondeo in certain situations. The worst is the driver's side A pillar. I too frequently find myself having to lean forward and look around it, especially when going around certain bends.
Rear visibility seems rubbish to me too.
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Rubbish visibility - bathtub tom
