I discovered today that my rear fog lights are wired up so that they only come on if you already have the front foglights on.
Ive never come across this before, but a read of the owners manual confirms this is the case, so you can have front fogs on independantly, but not the rears. Most odd.
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Actually it is quite common, my Subaru is like that and I think VAG are the same.
Last edited by: a900ss on Fri 19 Nov 10 at 20:26
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Both my last two Skodas have been wired like that... can't see why its odd, if you really need the rear ones on then the chances are you'll really need the front ones as well!
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My Citroen Picasso was like that, you rotated the collar on the stalk once for fronts, then a second time to bring the rears on as well, so you couldn't use the rears independantly.
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Ive never yet needed front ones, they usually make it worse. Maybe its because ive had alot of old cars which always had them wired indepenantly, Im so behind the times :)
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My Mazda6 puts on the front fog lights on before the rears. You can have front only but rears come on after the fronts. Lower spec models don't have the front fogs in the light unit (even though that's where the bulbs could be). Instead the optional front fog lights are lower down in the bumper.
The VAG's I've had were basically the same and so was the Mondeo.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Fri 19 Nov 10 at 21:28
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>> Maybe its because ive had alot of old cars
>>
My 98 Mondeo is the same and I do not like the fog light arrangement.
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Xantia & Berlingo both have the same setup as the Picasso described upthread. Previous cars (BX & 205) lacked front fogs, rears were on auxiliary switches placed where the designer put them.
Still miss the BX layout where the fogs, hrw & rear wiper were on the edges of the instrument cowl.
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The issue of fog lights is always contentious. They are seldom required and consequently are often forgotten about after they have been activated, causing varying amounts of frustration to following drivers who find themselves following a vehicle with unseemly bright rear lights often during periods of rainfall. Having driven an average of 8,000 miles per year for the past 45 years I can only recall two or three instances when I felt that front fog lights provided any advantage whatsoever.
As a reality check, would anybody who uses this site buy/refuse to buy a particular model of car because it did/didn't have fog lights?
As I write this I can't be sure whether my car has fog lights (it probably has) or where the switch is to operate them.
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>> As I write this I can't be sure whether my car has fog lights (it
>> probably has) or where the switch is to operate them.
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If it was built after 1980-ish, they're mandatory; but you are not alone in being unaware of where the switch is, or perhaps also unaware of what the extra light on your dashboard is for.
Older Volkswagens were probably the biggest culprits in this respect as the "idiot light" was a miserable little pin-prick in the switch itself, virtually invisible unless it's pitch-black.
My biggest bugbear is the Peugeot 207, which has the single rear fog lamp set low in the centre of the bumper. If you're driving an HGV behind such a car, on a wet road, the reflective glare is such that it's downright uncomfortable to follow them, and since most motorists don't react to flashing headlamps I tend to just drop back till the glare recedes.
I would like to see manufacturers all follow the principle of fog lamps cancelling when the ignition is switched off; too often they are left on unwittingly in the evenings by motorists who had to use them in early morning fog and have simply forgotten that they're still on.
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My SEAT has this same set up and it is very annoying as you cannot overtake a car with its rear fogs on and then cut in front of it and flash your rear fogs at him, without first putting your front fogs on!
Then of course the car in front of you tries to put their rear fogs on to tell you that you have your front fogs on. But he can't do that until he has put his front fogs on........ :)
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My last four cars, 2x SEAT, a Focus, and my Ceed all put the front fogs on before the rear. and they all defaulted all the fog lights to off with the lights.
EDIT:- The Ceed front fogs do not default to off with the lights, although the rear does.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Fri 19 Nov 10 at 22:28
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Harley, Bobby and Navy Senior
I think that we sing from the same hymn sheet.
I can see the benefit of more visible rear lights in times of very poor visibility but they must be self cancelling when the ignition is switched off. Front fog lights seem to be virtually useless to me.
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I will admit that in the last few weeks I have used my front fog lights more than I can remember and that is simply down to the fact that they light the road in front of you so much better at surface level.
Reason I have been using them is to try and illuminate the potholes in the roads in , and around, Glasgow. Especially in the wet, there are craters hiding everywhere!
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I've a theory that many drivers switch on their rear fogs at this time of year because they can't tell the difference between that switch and their HRW!
I can tell of several family members in this category. :>(
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My front and rear fog lights can be put on separately. I don't think Vauxhall have yet got around to insisting that the front fogs need to be switched on before the rear ones will work.
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Pick up's the same, first click fronts, second click rear.
Most trucks i've driven have independent switches, i hope they stay like that...very useful in the event of light fitting failure/damage, with a bit of bulb swapping you can keep the rear lit both sides without blinding everyone at the front end.
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My Volvo S40 has separate switches for the front and rear fogs.
imho manufacturers 'forcing' the use of both front and rears where you might want rears only lacks logic and is the opposite of a 'major contribution to road safety' ;)
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I use my front fogs when in a "Be seen" (extreme) situation. That can be fog or heavy motorway spray. On the motorway it might just let the truck, or car, driver see me a little earlier in their mirrors. In fog it may help the sidelight lit dimwit see me.
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>> front ones, they usually make it worse.
Unless they are badly adjusted they won't make things worse... all they do is light up the road just in front of the car... if its that bad that the rear ones are actually needed (and its not just mist!!) then they certainly won't do any harm... If you find they make things worse then perhaps they are not adjusted correctly?!
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My 2003 Focus is the same. I can't see the logic in it.
Last edited by: L'escargot on Sat 20 Nov 10 at 07:43
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C5 is front first, but its a once for on once for off type switch, so everytime you switch the headlights on / of the fogs are set to off until you turn them back on.
Mrs B's sharan only has rears, but same arrangement that they go of when you turn headlights off and need to be intentionally turned back on
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I have a button for front fogs, and a button for rear fogs.
You can use them in any fancy combination you like, as long as the sidelights are on.
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MB and older Volvo (and possibly older Scania) trucks and cars shared some of the switchgear particularly the multi light switches.
MB cars and trucks pull the main light switch out one click for fronts, two clicks for rears.
Volvo trucks, push on/off for front fogs pull on/off for rears...did older Volvo cars 700/900 series have the same i just can't remember.
Always preferred those simple all in one light switches, always situated just to the right of the steering wheel too.
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as is the current BMW set up - ergonomically sound for me, the fogs on the CRV were fired up from the stalks which were very "busy" - poorly laid out switchgear in particular...
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Glad to hear the BM's still got some proper switching, if it ain't broke etc still applies.
Hilux is fairly modern amazingly in switching but typically Japanese (assembled in South Africa) and works efficienly and simply, i'd prefer traditional Japanese where the indicator was on the correct (RH) side but that's too much to hope for any more.
I think the cars i hated most for switches were 80's ish Fiats with 3 column switches, always got them confused.
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Both the C8 and the C3 switch the fog lights off when the ignition is switched off.
My 1986 Austin Montego switched its foglights off with the ign as well; handy because I couldn't see the switch or the tell-tale.
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Most people seem to miss the point about fog lights, particularly the fronts. they're not intended to illuminate your way, or indeed do anything for you, they're there so that other people can see you. If conditions are such that fog lights are necessary then I've never understood why there's an option to have only the fronts on. If you need the fronts, you need the rears too. One switch should put them all on. I'm still looking for the weather condition whereby it's only foggy in front of me....
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Do we reallyneed front fogs ? Certainly I've never used them in anger - only to light up the front of my car like the proverbial if I'm out and about on deserted roads - wonder if I can hardwire my puddle lights..? :=)
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My thoughts too Woodster.
Pat
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When I were a lad, front fog lights were yellow.
What we have now are spot lights, but they are set so low as to be useless.
There was a theory that low lights would shine 'under' the fog, but it's never worked for me.
The only possible use for under-bumper lights is to keep a bright light at the corner of the car if a headlamp bulb fails.
I've used them for that purpose once, for about 15 miles.
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>> What we have now are spot lights, but they are set so low as to be useless.
>>
>> The only possible use for under-bumper lights is to keep a bright light at the corner of the car if a headlamp bulb fails.
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There is a new application for them - "cornering lights?"
Some MB and I some other makes, when taking a slow tight corner switch on the " fog light on the appropriate side.
Since my son got stopped for having his fog lights on and discovered this feature I have become more aware of this auto switching on of fog lights.
Not sure if it is legal. I suspect not but it is OK cos its on a MB. :-)
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MB ? - they're an option on Skoda's these days
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The only way you'll see one lit spotlight on my Ford is if the other bulb's blown.
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My old Roomie had them, seemed like it was raising an eyebrow in a Roger Moore sort of way ....very clever things.
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Strikes me as one of those wonderful solutions to a problem no one knew they had.
Like the parking sensors on my Qashqai. It has to be about the easiest car to park I've had in years. Great all round visibility and compact dimensions, huge great big door mirrors but it's fitted with parking sensors. Totally unnecessary. Bit like the keyless ignition. I'm constantly losing the ruddy key. At least if it's in the ignition barrel you can find the damn thing....
Anyway, to wobble back to topic....I like having front fog lights but like some others have said, the only time I've felt like using them is as a get you home measure in the event of a dipped beam failure. Can't say I've ever felt any need for any which peer round corners.
And another thing....
:-)
Last edited by: Humph D'Bout on Sat 20 Nov 10 at 18:30
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>> Strikes me as one of those wonderful solutions to a problem no one knew they
>> had.
Quite simply, fog lights (both front and rear) have been rendered less than useless by improvements in lighting and design technology.
Many of you will have noticed how weedy and indistinct the rear lights of pre-1980's cars are, on the rare occasions when you're following one these days. Same goes for headlamps; most family saloons of the day still had tungsten bulbs until you got up to "XL" trim. I worked in a Renault dealership in the early 1980's and only the top-of-the-range models had halogens as standard.
Nowadays, even the stock 472 halogen bulb looks as ineffective as those old tungsten ones did back then, whilst most cars have a back end which more resembles a Vegas fruit machine than a car. Fog lamps these days are not necessary as a standard fitment; unfortunately like any other legislation that's purported to be safety-oriented, it'll stay in case someone sues.
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Ive been watching cars with front fogs on coming towards me these last couple of days and the lights I see first are the headlights, which makes the fog lights as beacons redundant.
My front fogs dont seem to contribute whatsoever other than lighting up the kerb a few feet infront of me, there is no adjustment, they are where intended, but in fog, what I cant see is further ahead, right infront of me is the bit I can see.
Headlights work fine in all but the thickest of fog, front fogs seemingly just dazzle more - sometimes you can see more through fog with less, but adequate lighting.
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...sometimes you can see more through fog with less, but adequate lighting...
I believe that's something to do with the light reflecting off the tiny water droplets which make up the fog.
The brighter the light, the brighter the reflection, the less you can see.
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In thick fog normal headlights just reflect back as they are set too high, if you run with just front fogs in that sort of weather (switching off the headlights) they do work well as they are set at a lower level where the fog is not as thick and you don't get the same reflection...
The issue is more to do with how many times its really that bad... even when I've seen patches where its really thick they've only lasted a few yards!
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>>In thick fog normal headlights just reflect back as they are set too high, if you run with just front fogs in that sort of weather (switching off the headlights) they do work well as they are set at a lower level where the fog is not as thick and you don't get the same reflection...
The problem being that that is illegal, though I agree with you.
I'm not sure about Woodster's view on foglights, though he should know - why would you need foglights "to be seen" when they can only be used in poor visibility when dipped headlights are obligatory?
The "foglights" on the CRV only throw about 20 yards - but they are a help when it's thick, not that we get that very often these days, as they also pick out the road edges quite well. I actually used them this week; normally I only switch them on for half an hour every couple of weeks to dry them out and stop them rusting, as they did on my Scorpio!
To the OP, the front and rear can be used independently on the CRV.
Last edited by: Manatee on Sat 20 Nov 10 at 19:01
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>> Most people seem to miss the point about fog lights, particularly the fronts. they're not
>> intended to illuminate your way, or indeed do anything for you, they're there so that
>> other people can see you.
I have driven in fog so thick and so white and dense that headlights reflect back and blind you.
The foglights penetrate under the fog (because fog isn't right down to road level) and enable to you to see a bit of the road in front of you. They are fine at 5 - 10 mph.
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>>
>> The foglights penetrate under the fog (because fog isn't right down to road level) and
>> enable to you to see a bit of the road in front of you. They
>> are fine at 5 - 10 mph.
>>
I have to agree Zero, front fog lights are (very) rarely useful, probably not often enough to justify the cost of fitting them to a car when they're not standard but useful nevertheless. They (for instance) pick out the curb and centre line / cats eyes in the road. Of course, using them in any other conditions (apart from heavy snow) is merely adornment - like Christmas lights on lorries perhaps ?
I had a loner BMW with the 'active HID' headlamps when I was choosing mine. it just so happened that I was in rural Cambridgeshire in on a reasonably foggy night so I put the front fogs on, it proceeded to 'shorten' the HID beam so much that I switched the front fogs off as the resultant beam length was far too short.
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. One switch should put them all on.
>> I'm still looking for the weather condition whereby it's only foggy in front of me....
>>
Because proper use of rear fogs is that they are used until someone is close enough behind that they have good enough view of you in normal lighting, then you turn them off so that the driver(s) behind can get the proper benefit of stop lights.
The trouble with rear fogs is that in heavy traffic the sheer number of high intensity red lights drowns out the all important stop lights, it's bad enough trying to work out whether traffic has stopped or not in light fog anyway, you could explain this to the morons who switch them on the moment it starts to rain till you're blue in the face and never get it through their thick heads.
When fog is thick enough to reguire front fog lights then their usefulness comes apparent, those younger ones here will probably not have driven in the terrifying fogs that gradually disappeared some 30 or more years ago, when you really couldn't get out of first gear, i'd have given me eye teeth for some decent lights then.
Incidentally i used front fogs on the truck and the pick up driving home Friday evening, and the rear one on the pick up for about 5 minutes till i had a tail then turned it off.
I too like to have front fogs on any vehicle i drive, usually as back up when a headlamp bulb suddenly blows which they do very often in trucks.
Edit, quite right Z.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Sat 20 Nov 10 at 19:19
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Manatee -they are intended for you to be seen. neither front nor rear fogs are intended to produce a beam like a headlight, merely a high intensity light that can be seen by others. Of course there will be some illumination, but no forward beam (no more than a rear light produces a directional beam). If anyone doubts it, cover your headlights and drive on front fogs in the dark. I'll call a recovery truck for you!
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Woodster, I agree that you can't drive on the ones I have unless at 5-10mph (I don't need to cover the headlights, I can switch them off).
But I find it strange you think they are for being seen, when the law effectively says I can't use them unless my headlights are on. The foglights on the CRV, whatever their primary purpose, are clearly designed to throw a beam pattern forward, albeit a short distance, and to the sides to illuminate the road edges.
Last edited by: Manatee on Sat 20 Nov 10 at 20:05
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I think many modern cars would now not look right without the front fogs under the bumper.
They just sort of, well, make it look balanced.
When you see poverty spec versions of cars and they don't have them (usually replaced with blanking plates or grilles) they just don't look right!
CID in Strathclyde use base Focus cars, predominantly red, and have wheel trims and no front fogs. Car looks awful as it is not what Focii normally look like!
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My car has front fog lights. And like a Passat I had from 2000-2003, they are in the main light unit. They are not in the bumper.
So to respond to:
>> if you run with just front fogs in that sort of weather (switching off the headlights) they do
>> work well as they are set at a lower level where the fog is not as thick and you don't get the
>> same reflection...
How do mine work if they are not mounted low down?
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>> How do mine work if they are not mounted low down?
>>
In short they don't work - they are useless. probably not fog lights.
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The car has fog lights at the front. It is a Mazda6 Sport. The lower models have dummy bulbs for the fog lights.
The Passat I had from 2000-2003 had fog lights at the front - in the headlight units.
The Golf IV I had from 1999-2000 had fog lights at the front - in the headlight units.
So because these are not a design only thing they must work... but how if they are not low to the ground?
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>> So because these are not a design only thing they must work... but how if
>> they are not low to the ground?
>>
Well they do in the sense that they are or should be aimed considerably lower than the dipped beams and given their lower wider beam spread which crosses over into the dipped beam pattern adds to the close light intensity.
MB's have these integral extra lights too, they do work but you obviously get more reflected glare than lower level lights, i found they gave a good boost on misty nights better than nowt especially with better quality bulbs fitted a la Philips extreme equivalents...which i must get round to fitting in the pick up.
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>> The car has fog lights at the front. It is a Mazda6 Sport. The lower
>> models have dummy bulbs for the fog lights.
>>
>> The Passat I had from 2000-2003 had fog lights at the front - in the
>> headlight units.
>> The Golf IV I had from 1999-2000 had fog lights at the front - in
>> the headlight units.
>>
>> So because these are not a design only thing they must work... but how if
>> they are not low to the ground?
>>
No they will not work properly.
Fog lamps need to be mounted low, so you look over the light, which should as mentioned above, show up the kerb/white lines more than anywhere else.
'fog' lamps mounted high are like chocolate fire guards.
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But many cars have these style fog lights.
Of course I can be a chav and drive with mine all the time and nobody apart from me would know to be honest ;-) No policeman is going to suddenly think, hang on a minute, thats a Mazda6 sport with it's fog lights on.
The lower spec models have dummy bulbs where the fog ones would go. The optional (dealer fit) fog lights go low down in the bumper. And probably work better as fog lights.
But lets be honest and say few in the UK need front fog lights. But many use them inappropriately.
I am not, BTW, saying mine work being in the headlights. I was wondering. This arrangement was in the Golf and the Passat too (maybe I am recalling incorrectly for the latter).
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>>I think many modern cars would now not look right without the front fogs under the bumper. They just sort of, well, make it look balanced.
I think you've hit the nail on the head, albeit inadvertently.
They serve no purpose whatsoever. Form over function.
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>> They serve no purpose whatsoever. Form over function.
I agree and wonder why the only car in the Mazda6 range (previous model) to make use of the fog light bulbs for anything was the sport. All other models did not have fog lights and the dealer fit ones fitted lights lower down etc. So do the lights in mine suit any purpose other than useful if a bulb blows - bearing in mind as well that the Mazda6 Sport has xenons HID lights.... maybe that's why they have a spare bulb I guess?
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>> Manatee -they are intended for you to be seen. neither front nor rear fogs are
>> intended to produce a beam like a headlight, merely a high intensity light that can
>> be seen by others.
Woodster, a front fog light does not produce a high intensity light, beam or pattern.
Instead it produces a flat cut off short beam. Do you know why? to see under fog.
Look at the beam pattern next time you turn them on.
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 20 Nov 10 at 20:51
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>>.. a front fog light does not produce a high intensity light, beam or pattern.
>>
>> Instead it produces a flat cut off short beam ....to see under fog.
>>
Exactly!
Back in the early 70s My 1600 E was fitted with a pair of Wipac stainless steel cased fog lights mounted under the bumper and they were used with great effect in the thick fog of those years.
I must agree that really thick fog seems to be quite rare in my area. The last time I had problems my daughter was driving and the fog was so thick I had my head out of the window to "kerb watch" because dip beams were useless to see the road.
Also on my 1600E I had upgraded the lights to Cibie main & dip. Standard fit were Wipac spots linked to main beam operation so I guess It was the equivalent higher light output as HIDs are today.
I completed my lights upgrade with twin Wipac rear fog lights ( my own creation) that matched the familiar reversing lights and then some Lucas ( Austin 1100 style) side repeater flashers.
Certainly you could get two sorts of aux lights - spot lights ( driving lights) with a so called pencil beam for long range illumination and fog lights with a spread beam.
I can only guess that many have not driven in really thick fog using proper fog lights rather than dip beams.
In thick fog I will drive on foglights and no dip beam whatever the law says.
I do have the advantage, in this configuration, of being seen a little easier as I have uprated side lights.
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''Woodster, a front fog light does not produce a high intensity light, beam or pattern.
Instead it produces a flat cut off short beam. Do you know why? to see under fog.
Look at the beam pattern next time you turn them on. ''
Physics your strong point Zero? It certainly does produce light. Whether it's high intensity depends what you're comparing it to. But what's a 'flat cut off short beam' then? How do you 'cut off' a flat, short beam? Correct me if I'm wrong but light travels at 186000 miles per second, and continues to do so ('tis how we see the sun!) but you've got lights that manage to 'cut off' your 'short beam'. That's 'flat'....
Anyway, guess you know better than me, I'll take your advice and try to look under the fog as you suggest. Not sure how I'm going to do that from my rather conventional driving position (somehow the fog always seems to be in front of me, blocking my view) Hadn't thought to look 'under' it, can't imagine how I'm going to get low enough! I wonder if Pat's reading, maybe she can see over it from her lofty position. Pat?
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Woodster, I am rarely tempted to respond to posts but I think that Zero's point deserves support. You can focus light via a lens or reflector, its speed being irrelevant in this context. so the 'flat cut off short beam' referred to by zero is exactly what a front fog light has - the cut-off being where it hits the road and is reflected back to the driver's eyes.
As to seeing under the fog, the tarmac contains mica particles (IIRC, could be something else) which are reflective.
This whole front fog light arrangement has only limited effectiveness I'd concede.
The water droplet suspension may be less dense at ground level - it being dependent on temperature to form but also subject to gravity, however this is conjecture on my behalf as I claim no specialist knowledge.
Whether physics is my strong point or not, I would make no such claim but I once earned a good honours degree in the subject, albeit 23 years ago, classical optics and cloud physics being two subjects I didn't particularly enjoy IIRC.
Last edited by: idle_chatterer on Sun 21 Nov 10 at 23:33
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If dipped headlights can have a distinct cut off why can't fog lights?
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This is getting too technical for me:)
I rarely found that using fog lights on a lorry was of any benefit.
The only time they helped was when the fog was particularly dense, then they would light up the kerb or grass verge better.
Hope this helps one of the 'sides'!
Pat
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Idle, my general point is that you can't separate the effectiveness of fronts from rears. If you need one on, you need the other, and switches shouldn't separate the two. It's fairly obvious to me that some people simply like the look of having front fogs on. I can't see that fronts provide any more of a penetrating beam than rears and my assertion is that they're not intended to do so, they're to help other see you.
As for flat cut off beams - for sure the road surface itself cuts off the light, ( a beam being produced by a reflector to focus the light one way, something fogs don't do, other than generally forwards...) but you can't produce a light that cuts it's own beam off at some predetermined distance. And I'm not sure how you make light 'flat'.
Seems to be those like yourself that concede they're of limited use to the driver (as they're intended) and those that insist they light the kerbs, lift the fog, give financial advice and promote talented skid control.
Whilst it's clear outside at the moment it's certainly getting foggy on here...
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I think you are confused by the terminology, substitute "flat topped" for "cut off".
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>> If you need one on, you need the other, and switches shouldn't separate the two.
If I've got someone right behind me, out of courtesy I turn the rear fog lights off. If they were on the same switch as the fronts, I wouldn't be able to do that.
Having the fog lights on separate switches isn't a problem, and it shouldn't be rocket science to switch either of them or both of them on. Mind you, some people are very quick in reaching for the switch(es) at the slightest amount of mist (highway code says they should ONLY be used if visibility is less than 100 metres), but not so quick in reaching for the same switch(es) when the fog clears.
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First sensible reason I've heard for having them separately switchable-can't argue with that Vx.
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Weird fog light set-up - a900ss
