The A244 that goes north from J9 M25 to Esher & Sandown Park Race Course is closed in both directions by Oxshot Station due to a cement mixer crashing on the line ( see other thread ).
With the bridge badly damaged there will be quite a bit of disruption to traffic over quite a large area for many days to come.
both threads linked together
Last edited by: Pugugly on Fri 5 Nov 10 at 18:54
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11702343
Ouch! Any bridges near us have had concrete barriers added in recent years. I wonder how this one got missed.
John
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Been following this unfold on the radio, whilst on my way back from Bolton.
Its fairly near to where I live and an area we use for dog walking. My son is due to drive back from work that way. He could be late.
Its an old, narrow bridge, busy road, with just brick parapet. Certainly wouldn't stop a truck going over it or through it. Surprised its not happened before there.
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If it is narrow that may be why the ugly concrete reinforements have not been added. Elfin safety will be out now, no expense spared. Yours of course. Ready for a detour?
John
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Looking on the bright side. Some of the materials needed for the repairs are already on site.
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Do you think they'll send a bill for them?
John
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>> Looking on the bright side. Some of the materials needed for the repairs are already
>> on site.
I suspect its gone off by now, the mixer is not turning.
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It was very unlucky that the train was hit but it had only just pulled out of the station adjacent to the bridge so it would not have been going at any significant speed.
I too am surprised that this sort of incident has not happened before.
I am assuming the lorry was going south and went left through the wall. I would be very very surprised if the lorry was going north.
The road drops down to the bridge with a left bend onto the bridge over the railway cutting with traffic lights at the far end of the bridge.
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Those things must have a high centre of gravity. I'm surprised they don't fall over more often.
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Terrible that this is still possible. Lets hope injuries are not life threatening.
I might be down near this area a week on Monday and driving back on the Friday.... would that line be the one from Egham as I might do it by train.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Fri 5 Nov 10 at 18:47
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Egham? no its not on the same line or loop, the egham line wont be affected.
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Not going to a conference at Anugraha are you?
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No. A course in Egham. Not even definite yet. Nine AM start on a Monday too :-(
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...No. A course in Egham...
A dodgy childhood friend of mine was sent away to an institution in Egham.
His family described it as a boarding school, we all thought it was a borstal.
But it was more than 100 miles away, so we never did get to find out.
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Was it Beaumont at Old Windsor. I used to know the owners of the Ferrari dealership in Egham many years ago.
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...Was it Beaumont at Old Windsor...
Never got a name, just knew this tearaway was 'in Egham' during term time.
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It was always Leominster for our ne'r do wells. A very mysterious place that was...
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Brother went to Leominster Grammar School, which I think was a straightforward state school, unless I'm about to uncover some shameful family secret.
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There was one of "those" places at Shenfield. When I was at school in Essex, it was always "watch it or you will end up at Shenfield". Or was it Brentwood?
Funny thing is, they were forced to wear uniform and we were not.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 5 Nov 10 at 20:09
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Just wondered if it was Beaumont because the history of that place goes back somewhat. It was a school at one point. Then one of the training sites of ICL of old and now a hotel with Principal Hayley.
www.principal-hayley.com/venues-and-hotels/beaumont-estate
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaumont_College
Last time I was there it was full of people put up by BA due to flight cancellations from the Ash cloud.
Although reading the Wiki link above.... probably not the place.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Fri 5 Nov 10 at 20:17
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Oh don't get me wrong I think Leominster was randomly selected as somewhere far away that we knew little about..
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When we were naughty my mum would pretend to phone some people to take us away! And let us scream and worry after that! Wicked.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Fri 5 Nov 10 at 20:18
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Ludlow's nice. Quite near Leominster in the scheme of things. Good restaurants I seem to think.
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I know that now - always a nice little trip on the bike that place...
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Saw Othello at Ludlow Castle this year. Very civilised.
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I thought he was dead Zeddo...
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>> When I was at school in Essex,
>> it was always "watch it or you will end up at Shenfield"
Thought that was a warning for inebriated Liverpool St Commuters!!
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Fri 5 Nov 10 at 20:30
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>> Those things must have a high centre of gravity. I'm surprised they don't fall over
>> more often.
>>
Horrible things to drive, for the very reasons you mention. Never been tempted towards doing it for a living; I spent a year working for Marshalls in a factory, making drainage channels. Put me off wet concrete for life.
Point to note, from the previous thread about the broken-down train; someone mentioned the construction of railway carriages with regard to impact protection. That mixer would weigh 26 tonnes (assuming it's a 6-wheeler like most of them) so it says a lot for the safety of the coaches that no-one was killed, although it looks like a couple of the injuries were serious.
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>> Point to note, from the previous thread about the broken-down train; someone mentioned the construction
>> of railway carriages with regard to impact protection. That mixer would weigh 26 tonnes (assuming
>> it's a 6-wheeler like most of them) so it says a lot for the safety
>> of the coaches that no-one was killed, although it looks like a couple of the
>> injuries were serious.
Its a long drop from there, about 30 - 40 foot. It was lucky it hit the carriage where it did, at the bulkhead end. Less people there and more inherent strength. The train was also one of SW trains more recent stock, less than 5 years old.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 5 Nov 10 at 20:40
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>> Its a long drop from there, about 30 - 40 foot. It was lucky it
>> hit the carriage where it did, at the bulkhead end. Less people there and more
>> inherent strength. The train was also one of SW trains more recent stock, less than
>> 5 years old.
I lied - its their old stock. Class 455. Old BR stock from the early 1980's.
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>> Ouch! Any bridges near us have had concrete barriers added in recent years.
Classic H&S response.
This work followed the Selby rail crash where a car went off the nearside of the carriageway on the bridge where the M62 crosses the East Coast main Line. It passed left of the safety barriers and ended up on the railway. Ten people died in the resultant rail accident.
In the aftermath every rail bridge in the country was surveyed to identify where 'it might happen again'. Barriers or reinforced kerbs added according the the survey outcome; millions spent locally where numerous minor roads cross or abut the West Coast Main Line. At least one subsequent nasty accident where the protective kerb overturned a speeding chavmobile.
While parapet walls on some bridges might be deficient one hopes the response this time will be more rationla.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Fri 5 Nov 10 at 21:11
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>>While parapet walls on some bridges might be deficient one hopes the response this time will be more rational.
>>
I am guessing that the mixer was going south and went off on his nearside.
Coming down the slope , swinging left at the bottom onto the flat bridge there is an obvious tendancy to go straight rather than left. I would therefore guess the back went wide or/ and over correction was made.
I cannot think of any other senario.
IIRC there are no protective kerbs and there was just a low brick wall.
It is my normal route when going south of the A3 so I will have to investigate if the obvious but narrow diversion route a few hundred yards away is available or avoid the area for the rest of the year.
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Work started this week on our main road into the shopping centre where it crosses the new Metrolink line.
Large concrete kerbs, about a foot high, same as those you see on MSAs, have been installed to protect the line.
Good bit of forwrd thinking in view of today's crash.
Ted
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From the DT
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport/8113453/Passengers-trapped-and-injured-after-cement-lorry-falls-onto-train.html
The lorry clipped the edge of the bridge on the left and then swerved out into the path of oncoming traffic.
"The driver obviously tried to correct it but the weight in the back of the truck caused it to swing violently back to the left side of the road and the rear end smashed through the brick wall of the bridge.
"It was like something from a film, like the end scene of the Italian Job, as it was hanging backwards over the edge but then it suddenly plunged down with an enormous thud.
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I bet he was tanking it. paid by the load probably.
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 6 Nov 10 at 10:08
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Are cement trucks exempted from Tachographs ?
Last edited by: Pugugly on Sat 6 Nov 10 at 10:17
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Even if they are not, you have to examine the tacho on a speed limited road.
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No they're not - just Googled it...
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Seems to be a strange omission.
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They are not exempt from tachographs, and are mostly owner drivers running in a big companies livery.
Even if he wasn't speeding which I would have thought unlikely, as there are traffic lights there, I think, clipping the bridge would have been enough to have thrown something that top heavy out of control.
This is a case where the tacho could prove that he wasn't exceeding the speed limit, which is pointless, as clearly his speed and attention where imnapproriate for that road, at that time in whatever conditions prevailed.
Of course he may have been speeding, and will ultimately have to face the consequences in court.
Pat
Last edited by: pda on Sat 6 Nov 10 at 10:43
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...Seems to be a strange omission...
I was once told cement mixers were allowed to press on a bit to prevent the load solidifying in transit.
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That's why the drum turns Iffy :)
Pat
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Thanks Pat - it's something from the past that made me wonder about the Tacho thing. Your post makes sense I didn't know there were traffic lights there either. I wasn't really speculating as to whether he was speeding..
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I know you wasn't:)
We've all speculated anyway!
The point I was trying to make is that a lorry certainly doesn't have to be speeding to be going too fast, if you see what I mean.
A case of the tacho might help him, but really shouldn't do.
Pat
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>> I didn't know there were traffic lights there either. I wasn't really speculating as to whether he was speeding..
>>
Afte a 40 limit throught the woods he would have only just gone past a 30 mph sign and then a few yards later the slope certainly does no help controlling speed.
The traffic lights are at the far end of the bridge. When I frequently use the road and having lived just a few miles away for 30 years I have not been aware of any problems there.
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...That's why the drum turns Iffy :)...
Yeah, well, I didn't say it was true.
Here's another one.
Do they have a tank to pump some water into the drum if they get stuck in traffic?
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Yes, I believe they do, but more to put in the empty drum to stop it setting on the inner surface. It stays pretty much workable while the drum is turning.
I've only driven one once to try it, from Eastbourne to Hastings and it was scary!
Pat
Last edited by: pda on Sat 6 Nov 10 at 10:53
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...but more to put in the empty drum to stop it setting on the inner surface. It stays pretty much workable while the drum is turning...
Makes sense.
There's quite a few of the rigid tipper lorries moving aggregate near the A1(M) at Leeming in North Yorks.
I seem them on the A-roads near the caravan.
They don't half shift.
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>> Do they have a tank to pump some water into the drum if they get
>> stuck in traffic?
The concrete is missed to a precise specification at the batching plant. The drivers should not be adding water to the mix as this will affect the ultimate strength of the concrete. However for most purposes a little bit won't do too much harm.
The water in the tank is mainly used to clean down the chute and the outside of the truck after discharge, and the inside of the drum as Pat says.
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I was driving up the A3 yesterday afternoon and thinking of taking a route through Oxshott when I heard the news on the radio. The roads were damp and I saw a couple of near misses with one car failing to see stationary traffic ahead and only avoiding a crash by swerving onto the hardshoulder and up the embankment.
I usually take Heath Road, the diversion henry referred to above, so don't have a particularly clear memory of the bend before the bridge but here is the Streetview image as you approach the bridge.
tinyurl.com/2v2lz29
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Was there a visibility problem, sun or something Crocks ?
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It had been wet and showery all day. I was returning up the A3 about 4.30-5.00 so it was rather the lack of sun that was causing the problems!
The concrete lorry probably just misjudged the bend, clipped the end of the parapet, and then the damp road didn't help him.
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Wet leaves - another hazard, seems to be a lot of trees at the scene.
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...wet leaves another hazard...
I would say pilot error is the cause of 99 per cent of all motor accidents.
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The following link shows the view back up the road from whence the concrete truck came.
tinyurl.com/24nj6jc
You can see the road is quite narrow and that the foliage obscures the end of the parapet. It would be quite easy to assume that you could just brush the foliage without any problems.
Maybe the driver found out the hard way that you shouldn't.
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I use this bridge daily, so I'll be one of the many who will have to find a diversion.
Every time I drive on southbound on this road onto the bridge (i.e. coming from Esher towards Leatherhead) I've always thought it dangerous. You come down a hill, onto a narrow bridge with a tight kink of a bend just as you go onto the bridge. With so many of the local housewives driving hulking great big 4x4s (so essential for the school run ...) the road is effectively narrower than it used to be.
I read that the cement lorry clipped a kerb causing it to swerve backwards off the railway bridge. According to one eye-witness it was hanging over the edge for a moment, just like at the end of the Italian Job, before it fell onto the train. Must have been a real fright for truck driver and train passengers alike.
An accident waiting to happen.
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I know the road like the back of my hand, and I am really surprised It hasn't happened before.
If you go there and study the place, its an encyclopaedia of all the classic hazards, and then some, in a small area.
As Henry says, the 40mph limit end is too close to the scene, and yes I bet he was speeding, seen the drivers for that firm at that spot doing it.
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Quite difficult to speed at that point, with traffic coming the other way and that nasty little kink in the road.
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They seem to manage it, and to be fair, as did I as a youth. Its not hard to speed at all, anywhere.
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The coach that was hit might be a right off but remarkably little damage to the train.
The corrugated roof suggests one of the series based on the BR mk3 bodyshell; built like a brick outhouse!!!
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 6 Nov 10 at 13:16
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Local press reports in the same item
The driver of the lorry was travelling from the A3 towards Leatherhead when he careered through the wall of the road bridge
and
"Window fitter George Palmer, 16, was with his friend Elliott Walker, 27, on his way back from work and followed the mixer west along the A244 from Leatherhead.
He said: "We followed him off the motorway. He scraped the brick wall and tried to correct it but he didn't want to go into the on-coming traffic.
"He clipped the wall, then fell down and the weight of the cement mixer pulled the vehicle down. "It was the back end which went first. "
Only one of the above can be correct :-(
Passengers are, however, are still being advised to allow additional time for their journeys as a result of road traffic congestion on the bridge on Warren Lane (A244) leading to Oxshott station.
Temporary traffic lights have been installed and a one-way system has been implemented.
Trains will be running normally Mon 07 Nov so some good work has been done over the last couple of days & nights
A good pic of the truck at the scene at track level. A very lucky driver.
www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3215703/Rail-crash-route-set-to-
A couple of video clips and a pic of how high the bridge is above the tracks.
tinyurl.com/3y3fkrg
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>> The corrugated roof suggests
Most 75ft coaching stock is built like that, B, look at the roof of the 22X class DEMUs, its just a way of strengthening the coach roof instead of internal (and heavy) bracing - Looking at the photos it hit the roof at the strongest point, the end of the coach... That will have helped both with the damage and the casualties, I don't want to think about what would have happened if it had hit one in the middle... They may well write off the coach though.
We were talking about it at work, overall the odds of it actually hitting a train at all would be very low... Just unlucky! Wonder what Mr Crow's response will be as he's forever banging on about replacing level crossings with bridges...
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A friend of mine who is employed by Notwork Rail tells that the Local Authority, i.e. me, will pay for the repairs to the fabric of the brodge.
Why am I not surprised? Or will they claim back from the lorry's insurers?
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Insurers I would hope to imagine !
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Yes, should be the insurers (ie us!)... they do if a lorry bashes a bridge, this is just taking it one stage further!
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Quote from this weeks report in the local press
"Since the accident, vegitation has been cut back so the parapet is more visible but the end marker of the papapet has not been replaced nor has any protection been provided to mark the end of the parapet to drivers"
There were five recommendations from the report.
I can add these if anyone is interested.
IIRC a small tree and some foliage blocking the view were removed at the time but passing that way yesterday the parapet end looked pretty well hidden to me.
I would have expected SCC to have ensure all was sorted prior to the report being published.
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That's an interesting report Henry.
I don't think Network Rail have anything whatsoever to reproach themselves for a I'm surprised their findings didn't apportion more blame upon the lorry driver.
The drivers court case has been widely reported in the industry press and the charge of 'failing to make proper use of recording equipment' (a tachograph), as well as the driving charge is at the bottom of this one.
>>Petru Achim, 35, of Hook in Hampshire, was driving the cement mixer that crashed through the bridge wall in Warren Lane, Oxshott.
He had only been driving LGVs for three weeks at the time of the accident and was in his first week of unaccompanied driving.<<
I have driven rigid cement mixers and they are notoriously top heavy with a load that constantly moves as the drum turns.
Any undulation in the road will throw it off balance if the speed or angle isn't right.
The type of work he was doing is typically paid 'by the load' so the faster you go and the more loads you deliver, the more you earn.
Employers who pay this way expect you to make a good living for both yourself and for them, but they want you to do it legally, of course.
Do they check? Some do but some don't.
Failing to make proper use of the tachogragh would mean at best, he had been loading and unloading the vehicle whilst showing a tachograpgh break from work.
At worst, he probably was only using it for part of the day.
It was a recipe for disaster to allow an inexperienced driver to do this type of work and in my opinion he got off very lightly.
Getting that first job with no experience after passing the HGV test is extremely hard, but to be set on under this pay scheme and on this type of vehicle with the pressure to 'push on' tells me that the employer saw him as eager, new, and easy to groom into productive lorry driver.
No amount of making parapets visible would avoid this sort of situation.
The onus, as always, is on the driver to say no and mean it.
Pat
Last edited by: pda on Tue 16 Aug 11 at 04:10
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Thanks for your side of the story.
No mention of tacho etc in our local press.
The local report / angle on it and action points.
www.surreycomet.co.uk/news/topstories/9182173.Oxshott_train_crash__could_have_been_avoided_/
Of course our new loacl MP has his say. He is popping up everywhere and anywhere so I wonder what is his agenda ??
As discussed before the bridge is flat and you hit off quite a slope ( 30mph zone) and a swing left all at the same time so there is a weight transfer even in a saloon. A little excuse for the driver.
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much as Pat knows I love to heap blame on lorry drivers, and much as concrete mixer drivers are the scariest bunch of madmen about, as Henry says, you really need to pop down there and see that section of road. Its pretty nasty. If you wanted to build an exhibition piece of terrible and dangerous road design, this is your baby.
Really surprised its took that long for something like that to happen.
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Zero. I agree with you.
>>Really surprised its took that long for something like that to happen.
When it was reported I assumed the impact was on the other side of the bridge. i.e the mixer went straight on off the slope. I was astounded that it impacted the bridge on his side of the road.
I do not understand some of the logic re barriers. They recently renovated the A309 dual carriageway bridge over the railway at Hinchley Wood. There are multiple barriers etc. etc but IMO very very low risk of anything getting on the rails especially as the whole bridge is so wide. At Oxshott - still nowt.
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>> No mention of tacho etc in our local press.
The road traffic and rail angles seem to have been pretty much seperate. recent publicity has been generated by publication of the Rail Accident Report. this can be found onthe RAIB site:
www.raib.gov.uk/publications/investigation_reports/reports_2011/report132011.cfm (the pdf actually 9Mb not 900k as suggested)
The report on the drivers conviction at mags ct is linked from the surrey comet report posted by Henry k above.
Another almost contemporaneous RAIB report deals with a tanker driver misusing a user managed level crossing in Essex. Result, as in this case, was non fatal but only because of the incredible crash worthiness of modern rolling stock.
In both cases the drivers were inexperienced and from eastern europe - does the lgv industry have something to learn?
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Cement mixer falls on train. - Tooslow
