tinyurl.com/2vapd2z
What would you have done?
This appears to have happened on a 2-track section and the passengers exited by the non-track side.
I think I would've gone.
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Me too............pompus gits, suggesting the rescue was delayed because some passengers 'escaped'!
That's a very misleading photo too, the reality is Foxton is, as bathtub says, a 2 line section/station. Walking along the trackside would not have been difficult or dangerous.
maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&q=Foxton%20station&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl
Last edited by: Berisford on Sun 31 Oct 10 at 00:28
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Having done some time on railways, albeit only on preserved lines, I'm in two minds on this one.
The passengers may well have exited along the trackside, but human nature is such that my guess would be they wouldn't stay there for long, it being far easier to walk along the "four-foot" i.e. between the rails. Train staff may not have been aware that the line had been closed entirely.
Admittedly, a miserably poor performance from the train company regarding an organised recovery, but imagine the consequences if someone had been injured, either by being run over by the rescue train or tripping and falling over on concrete sleepers and ballast. I suggest the train staff were in a "no-win" situation.
BTW I've witnessed the outcome of livestock being hit by a train, it ain't pretty, and it's also known to be one of the most certain ways of committing suicide. That is why railways are so tightly regulated.
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>>>> walk along the "four-foot" i.e. between the rails. >>
Pedant mode on/
Isn't it called "The six foot way?"
Pedant mode off
Last edited by: Duncan on Sun 31 Oct 10 at 08:13
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First Capital Connect has won award for worst train company in the country.
There is even a website on their incompetency.
www.ihatethameslink.co.uk/
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Been there a few times, broken down I mean not Foxton.
Might post some more ordered thoughts later but getting off is, apart from bring dangerous, extraordinarily selfish. Once the line controller/signaller knows there are people on the track he has to stop everything until all the strays are accounted for. Suddenly, thousands more people are delayed.
The four foot is the gap between the running rails. The six foot is the gap between the pairs of running lines (ie between the up and down lines).
EDIT - Tied with CG N on the above info!
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 31 Oct 10 at 09:30
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Duncan,
The "four foot" is the gap between the running rails - derived from" four foot eight and a half"
The six foot (or eight foot) is the corridor between two sets of rails.
Hence Harleyman correct
(should have used trainspotter mode rather than pedant mode:-))
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but imagine
>> the consequences if someone had been injured, either by being run over by the rescue
>> train or tripping and falling over on concrete sleepers and ballast.
I'm lost for words with this..................
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The language used by the train company is unfortunate, but probably quite revealing of their overall attitude.
Cattle 'escape', passengers do not.
The bashing of the train companies which run the London commuter lines is as old as the companies themselves.
Trouble is, even though criticism may be justified, it leads to a 'bunker mentality' among the company's employees.
Constant moaning breeds a cynical attitude to customers - see 'cattle' above.
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Its hard this one, and I would have been out and away. But then I know how to safely negotiate all types of railways, most of the cattle on board cant be trusted to sit the right way on a toilet seat.
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...But then I know how to safely negotiate all types of railways...
Doesn't help though, does it?
The signalman doesn't know you know, won't assume you know, so presses the stop button and a long stretch of line in both directions is disrupted.
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Thats true, he has to assume the rest of the cattle know zilch.
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I very much doubt the passengers who let them selves off would be in any great danger.
If the distance is correct in the original story then the line is dead straight and very easy to see anything coming from a distance.
Also there is a level road crossing just before the station as well so plenty of chances for the passengers to get off the track as soon as possible.
But then I am sure my 'common sense' views would be poo poo'd in today's wrap everything up in cotton wall society.
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>> I very much doubt the passengers who let them selves off would be in any
>> great danger.
These are the same people who try to beat trains at level crossings.
Railways are dangerous places, full stop. I can guarantee that if you stopped a train away from a station, told everyone to leave, and didn't assist their departure, someone would hurt themselves.
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...I very much doubt the passengers who let them selves off would be in any great danger...
Tend to agree in this case, but apart from suicides, people are killed on the railways.
I bet many of them reckoned, like Zero, they knew what they were doing.
One train masking the sound of another is an example of a challenging scenario.
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I don't suppose the escapees caused any hindrance but the operator will have to make a huge song and dance about it in order to prove they have done their best to prevent tragedy at any future similar occurences somewhere not so safe to do a runner.
You can't blame them for being over the top on safety, there's many would be looking for compo of they broke a finger nail shinning down the steps.
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>>
>> You can't blame them for being over the top on safety, there's many would be
>> looking for compo of they broke a finger nail shinning down the steps.
>>
Quite right.
If you look at the fuss on the fairly rare occasions of a fatal rail crash, "someone must pay, jail them for corporate manslaughter, it must never happen again," and all the usual hysteria, you can understand why the train operators get a bit paranoid over safety.
Last edited by: Robin Regal on Sun 31 Oct 10 at 11:09
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>> If you look at the fuss on the fairly rare occasions of a fatal rail crash, "someone must pay, jail them for corporate manslaughter
Potter's bar? Controversial to come out against that one!
Who left the nuts unscrewed - Jarvis worker
Why? - Working practices from prehistoric times that had never been updated
Was the outcome avoidable? - Yes, if the nuts were holding the points together the crash wouldn't have happened
The 2 points that were contested ->
Should someone be held accountable?
If so, should it be the worker who last had his hands on those particular nuts & bolts?
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>> Who left the nuts unscrewed - Jarvis worker
>>
>> Why? - Working practices from prehistoric times that had never been updated
Had they kept prehistoric working practices, it would never have happened.
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Having read the report, I cannot believe the impatience of some people. Its not as if they were stuck for 3,4,5 hours.
Their excuses were the lights went out. So they then leave the safety of a carriage in darkness, to walk along a track IN darkness. With all the trip hazards that go with such a trapse.
This lot had no real excuse to endanger themselves, and should have been charged by the TP with tresspassing, as they were no longer in the train.
Okay, if they were that scared of the dark, the train companies should introduce emergency battery back up lighting. But I feel even with this some hot heads too impatient to wait would have hit the tracks anyway. Some attitudes nowadays are unbelievable.
As a side issue, the London Undergoround stock doesn't appear to have emergency lighting on the carriages if the power goes down. It is deployed in the tunnels, so why can't they install on the rolling stock.
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I don't work on the railway but I've been a rail commuter on the Euston line for a quarter century. What follows is based on experience and conversations with rail staff.
Obviously, the first thing the driver & conductor have to do in a breakdown is secure the train and comply with signalling & safety rules. If one of them then gets on the PA & says in plain English what's happened, what's being done to put it right & roughly how long that might take (and keeps updating every 20 minutes or so) the job's half way to being right. It's when they make irregular contradictory or scrambled announcements or none at all that passengers, particularly if the train is near a station, will take the sort of action seen at Foxton.
The working railway is a dangerous place. Even those who are trained and experienced can come to grief. The formal report into just such an accident near Leeds (trackworker killed by passing train) is here tinyurl.com/2aax465 If there are reports of passengers on the line the rulebook says 'stop everything'. Nothing then moves at more then walking place until the trespassers are off the track.
If a train has to be evacuated and cannot be moved to a station for that purpose the preference is to move people into one that's working. That might involve shuffling everybody into the working carriages and splitting the train. Trains with end corridor connections allow a rescue train to shunt up so passengers can then walk forwards or backwards. If that's not possible another train can be brought alongside, with emergency kit on board to allow the gap between the doors to be bridged.
Evacuating people onto the track is last resort. As well as track and sleepers there will be cable troughs, drains, vegetation and the rubbish people throw onto tracks as well.
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Madness i'll say......................
Just done a PTS course last week thats Personal Track Safety & DP Designated persons, I work for the railway & my job is to attend failed trains like this one.
Yes your stuck there and yes nobody tells you much the railway works with safety and opening the doors was the easy bit, the air will have dropped off if been sitting there and the doors will open with the emergency buttons.
They were luck they were not killed had this been 3rd rail with a live conductor rail and you tripped it's 750v will kill you or the overheads have broken and one is hanging down 25kv will fry you.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDyTfJ1OG4g
The above link shows a mental person which is real, But the same happens to the stupid ones who dare all and run on the tracks.
The way it works is the train comes to a stop the driver puts a track circuit clip between the two rails this gives a short and puts the signals to danger, Then the driver has to walk one mile and a quarter behind him and lay down 3x detonators on the track to alert any trains coming to STOP.!
The train that pulls up along side is the only way sometimes to get you off the risks are minimal, If you have to get off all the overheads or 3rd rail has to switched off which is easy to do but we need to keep trains running so to walk the plank is the best way.
A train at just 30mph makes a mess of the human body don't risk your life STAY OFF THE TRACKS.!!
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>> I think I would've gone.
>>
Me too - but then again, Southern do a bit better with this sort of thing than FCC. Not a lot, but a bit.
Edited to add: only on a line with 25kV overhead - round here with the 750V live rail, not so much...
Last edited by: paulb on Sun 31 Oct 10 at 16:53
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Is that really a photo of Foxton station? It looks more like Clapham Junction.
When I was a child we often went by train to Oakham, and I remember the platform was not long enough for all the carriages. Passengers in the rear carriages had to walk along the track.
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>>Is that really a photo of Foxton station?
No, this is Foxton station:
tinyurl.com/3acootv
That's just a journalist's idea of what a railway looks like. No journo's here, are there? ;>)
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>> >>Is that really a photo of Foxton station?
>>
>> No, this is Foxton station:
>>
>> tinyurl.com/3acootv
>>
>> That's just a journalist's idea of what a railway looks like. No journo's here, are
>> there? ;>)
>>
So the picture in the article is deliberately misleading, giving the impression that the passengers walked back along a maze of crossing tracks. In fact Foxton is a small station with just 2 tracks?
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It's a library photo. The credit to Getty Images is a giveaway. The post above from the railway professional is very helpful - thank you.
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Going back to the OP, I've actually had it happen with a load of footie fans who thought that they knew better like that lot...
All lines stopped due to the overhead line power being off... we were in a diesel train but couldn't move as there was an electric in front of us. We estimated that we'd be stuck for about an hour and told everyone that, the engines were running, aircon ok and food and drink on board...
But some knew better and forced the doors open, climbed down and made their way across the track and fields to the station in front of us... where everything was stationary! In forcing the doors they knackered our train which meant that when we got the ok to move (after being delayed until we were certain they were no longer on the track!!) we had to isolate the emergency equipment and crept into the station where the train was taken out of service...
Their actions endangered their lives, delayed things when we got things running again and meant that we had to cram 200 people on another train (most standing) to get everyone home...
The only consolation was that the BTP, after being told about what had happenned) waited outside the station for them to arrive, as evidences by the muddy shoes/trousers after walking across a muddy field and arrested them!
I can't comment on that incident as I don't know what sort of info the passengers were given... but the delay can't have been that long (looks like an hour from the times mentioned) which isn't that long - as long as they were kept informed - but from my experience even when we do let everyone know whats going on there are still idiots who choose to put their own lives (and others) in danger and also add to any delay...
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A few nougets get off and the herd of sheep follow this is what happens at least the BTP arrested them well done.
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whilst i fully agree with the posts regarding rail safety in the back of my mind if i was on a stood train i would have this dreadfull fear i was to be rammed by another train so i cant honestly say whether i would stay or go
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if i was on a stood train i would have this dreadfull fear i
>> was to be rammed by another train
Understandable, but highly unlikely. Others are better qualified than I to explain the modern system of signalling, but basically on a double-track line it runs on what's called a "block" system, where the route is divided up into sections. Once a train has passed a signal, it is automatically set to danger until the said train passes another signal further up the line. Only then can the signalman allow another train through the section.
This is why, as described in the post above, one of the train crews' duties is to set the clips across the rails, which shorts out the low-voltage current running through them and basically renders it impossible for the signalman to re-set his signals.
If you read about rail accidents, you will find that the vast majority involve a "PSD" which is "Passed Signal at Danger" and is the cardinal sin of train driving.
Trust me, the safest place to be in this situation, is on the train.
Apologies to the railway professionals if some of my information is a tad dated.
Last edited by: Harleyman on Sun 31 Oct 10 at 22:31
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i might just add that a very good friend of mines dad now departed was a look out on the railways who failed to do his job,he spent the rest of his life with one leg so nothing is infallible and trust me i spend a lot of time near railways
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>> whilst i fully agree with the posts regarding rail safety in the back of my
>> mind if i was on a stood train i would have this dreadfull fear i
>> was to be rammed by another train so i cant honestly say whether i would
>> stay or go
'Rear ending' is a road transport thing. It can only happen on the railways if proper procedures are circumvented, signals grossly misread or (& Clapham in 1988 is probably the only recent case) there is a major 'wrong side' failure in the signalling.
Once you've been stopped for 10 minutes on a busy line you can be pretty sure that there are three or four more trains stopped behind.
And even where there is an impact the modern carriage's crashworthiness makes cars look like shoe boxes. In September 1986 there was a 100mph crash at Colwich in Staffordshire. The cause was a Manchester bound driver misinterpreting signals at a junction. All the passengers on two London expresses survived. The only fatality was the innocent driver of the southbound train.
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I've often wondered about the track circuit clips. I've often seen them hung up in the cab of a DMU and I understand the principle of their use.
What I cannot grasp is why the axles of the many vehicles that pass by, goods, passenger and locos, do not short out the rails in the same manner.
Surely all axles can't be insulated.... particularly steam engines....like on my model railway ?
Over to you...Bigtee.
Ted
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When the train passes over the signals there is a AWS receiver that is opperated by the magnets on the track this in turn opperates the signals and correctly as it passes over puts the signal to danger "red".
When this comes to a stand the driver fits the TCA clips behing the failed set & 3x detonators fitted 20 metres apart at 1 mile & a quarter, these are for safety measure and any train that passes over these shake the bones out of you beleive me and the on comming train will slow right down and stop & then ring the signaller.
The Track circuit clips when used are thrown away after and a brand new set is used.
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And you don't want to be anywhere near a detonator when its triggered as its sends out little pieces of shrapnel-like stuff - I think the distance is at least 30 yards away!
Just to add to the above, they feed a low voltage (50v I think) feed through one rail which the steel wheels and axles then transfer to the other rail, completing the circuit and lighting up the section on the signalman's track diagram which then shows where the train is. Once it moves onto the next section the circuit is broken and the section shows "clear". The use of TC clips just does the same job as the wheels and axles...
For those of you worried about safety on rail, you shouldn't be as everything on railways is aimed to fail safe... for instance if signal wire is cut (toerags nicking it for instance) then all signals revert to red... if a signal light fails and there is no "aspect" showing it is also regarded as a stop aspect... Driver's route knowledge is very intense (more so than mine as a passenger guard), and they will know where they are even in pitch black and foggy conditions...
I knwo of one trainee driver who had to give up the course when he realised that he just couldn't drive at line speed in thick fog relying entirely on his route knowledge and the signals...
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>> I knwo of one trainee driver who had to give up the course when he
>> realised that he just couldn't drive at line speed in thick fog relying entirely on
>> his route knowledge and the signals...
>>
How does one become a trainee driver, out of interest. I always fancied becoming a goods train driver.
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Train breaks down at 4.55pm.
Train not fully emptied of passengers by 7.30pm.
We are a consumer society and expect service.
At near three hour delay on a 1 hour commute is not service...
Forget H&S etc.. for a minute. That is an appalling way to treat your customers.
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>> Train breaks down at 4.55pm.
>> Train not fully emptied of passengers by 7.30pm.
>>
>> Forget H&S etc.. for a minute. That is an appalling way to treat your customers.
>>
Espcially as the train had, according to the report just outside the station, there is no way the passengers should be on the the train for that long
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That was until fully emptied... they started moving people out after an hour... bearing in mind that initially they would have been trying to get power, and then they have to sort out how they are going to evacuate without endangering the passengers lives (those overhead lines still carry a residual current, for instance and other trains could run on adjacent lines)... I disagree, its not an unreasonable length of time.
People tend to compare evacuating a train to that of a bus which can be done usually very quickly as the roads are a reletively easy environment to work from, especially as all of us a familiar with it... A railway, however, is totally alien for most people with hazzards that most people wouldn't dream of...
I'm not saying it was done properly. I simply don't know, but in a situation where other tracks could still be in use, high voltage current is present, and its dark, I would not be rushing an evacuation... If I did the chances are i would be putting people at risk...
However thats a "controlled" evacuation, in an "emergency" one (Grayrigg for example) things tend to be much quicker... but even then we have a lot to do to ensure things are safe... and we rely on the Public being sensible and not impatient idiots who would rather put theirs and others lives at risk just to save a few minutes... A lot to ask, I know...
Re the train driver job, you could try the likes of EWS or Freightliner direct, but I'm not sure what their recruitment policy is, I know for Passenger trains they tended to be recruited from within.
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Just one other thing, for those of you who like to rush things... ask yourself why Railways are the safest form of Land Transport... The answer is its because everything is geared to the safety of the passengers and employees... You can't keep it that way if you rush things and ignore safety systems as the railways have proved in the past and road transport still does every day... Sometimes taking your time can save lives and injuries.
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why is everyone milking it ?
it was 500 yards from the platform.
Direct line of sight, no corners.
No third rail.
Apparently the level crossing was also out of action for the duration that the train was stuck (the crossing is adjacent to the station).
This resulted in multiple miles of stuck traffic on the A10 road.
I don't hear of any complaining from that though !
If it were me and I could see the station from the broken down train, id walk but then I know how often the trains run and that there is no third rail.
But then I am no sheep and I think our train services are dire.
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>> Train breaks down at 4.55pm.
>> Train not fully emptied of passengers by 7.30pm.
>>
>> We are a consumer society and expect service.
>>
>> At near three hour delay on a 1 hour commute is not service...
>>
>> Forget H&S etc.. for a minute. That is an appalling way to treat your customers.
Even bearing in mind the time needed to make things safe and summon up a recue train 2:30 is certainly at the limit of acceptable. If the conductor or driver were giving regular comprehensible messages then people really should be able to accept the need to hang on for their own safety. Unfortunately it only needs one hot head and some sheep......
My local train co, London Midland, has a 'hit squad' who are taken by rail, road or on foot to breakdowns and emergencies. Their job is to relay information, assist customers in re-planning their journeys etc. they can loan mobiles so messages can be passed on. They also issue compensation vouchers - or at least take the details to get such things moving.
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I don't see many passengers being locked in coaches for their own safety for that length of time.
Any normal service - eg buses, can call upon spare ones at any time.. (that's what trains do - use buses).
But a train breaks down and nothing happens for hours.
I assume train companies are living in the nineteenth century and they have zero contingency plans to deal with this sort of thing...
Needless to say, I travel by train as little as possible due to similar barbarous treatment by rail companies of passengers - like stuck for three hours on the way from B'rum to London - and nothing happened....
If the regulating body was any good... but they are carp so the potential fro another cost saving appears...
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As an infrequent railway passenger I have no idea on what to do in the event of an unexpected event - I doubt whether I'm alone in this - the experiences I do have is that when something unexpected happens there is little or no information given. When a train breaks down for instance it seems that even basic services for supporting customer comfort (liquids, heat/cooling or even basic information) are non-existent - railway companies even fail to deliver a basic response to anti-social or criminal behaviour when required. Seems to me that the perception is that once something outside the norm happens you're on your own and they can't expect people not to act on their own initiative - basically companies need to get their act together.
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Pulling the comments I've already made together.
Experience as a thirty thousand mile a year commuter is that they have plans and do stuff; they just don't keep the punters up to speed on what their doing. Rail's safety record can be it's achille's heel when things go wrong. Out of course and 'wrong way' working have to follow proper authorisations and these take time to arange. Even an extra stop needs the driver to have a written order from control.
As for spare trains, there are none; railways 'sweat their assets' like any other business. There's a whole industry around providing buses for weekend engineering work but very few are spare for hire at 08:30 on a working weekday.
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In the situation described and based on experiences of travelling by train in the South East of England, I'd probably have given up and walked. 500m is about 5 minutes walk.
I think some of the terminology used by rail staff here and by the spokesperson quoted in the story are enlightening as an insight into their attitude towards their customers. "Escaped" and "Idiots" are but two examples. I also noted the presence of some paramilitary organisation called the British Transport Police whose role appears to be to search for and arrest paying customers of the railway services, rather than helping out when things go wrong.
I've suffered several train breakdowns in the UK and can't remember being offered either anything to drink or any information about what was happening. I'm sure for the driver, swigging tea in his cab, 90 minutes additional overtime before help appears might be considered an acceptable sacrifice for his passengers to bear. The passengers sitting (or standing) in a darkened compartment, have paid handsomely to be transported somewhere and have an expectation to have this commitment fulfilled and be kept in the information loop when something goes wrong. When this doesn't happen they have the right to question the competence of those operating the train and holding them captive.
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>> I'm sure for the driver, swigging
>> tea in his cab, 90 minutes additional overtime before help appears might be considered an
>> acceptable sacrifice for his passengers to bear. The passengers sitting (or standing) in a darkened
>> compartment, have paid handsomely to be transported somewhere and have an expectation to have this
>> commitment fulfilled and be kept in the information loop when something goes wrong. When this
>> doesn't happen they have the right to question the competence of those operating the train
>> and holding them captive.
>>
I have sat in winter, snow on ground , freezing in a train going nowhere..No heater, nothing. No explanation, no idea when we would move.Nothing.
I reckon it's how convicts were transported.
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40 hommes, 8 chevaux maybe...
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Thanks, Bigtee and Hobby.
So, I assume the clips are carried back and used to short out the section the train has just cleared. They then become ' train in section ' and the block working system shows an uncleared section.
I just thought the driver climbed down and put them across the rails near the train, but in practice heor she may have to walk quite a distance back to the last s3ection break..
Ted
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Ted,
I think clips are also used where an accident (eg a derailment) means that adjacent lines are compromised.
When the West Coast line was re-signalled track circuits were replaced with axle counters. Could one of our professionals explain how other lines are protected where there is no track circuit?
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Correct, B, in a derailment situation the clips are used to "short" the other lines and bring everything to a stand... and if the train is completely off its own rails then you'd use a clip on that line as well. Another reason for using them is to ensure nothing moves so if an evacuation has to take place they won't be run down by a passing train - in this case it would seem as if the adjacent line was still in use... a fact ignored by some people... all you need is a trip on a piece of ballast in the dark and you can quite easily end up with one less limb...
Axle counters work on the basis that it counts the number of axles which then should tally with the number the train should have! If it doesn't everything stops!! With regard to clips, they work as before on axle counter stretches, showing train in section on the signal box's panel... On the reletively few sections without TC then its out with the detonators and a long walk in the rain... ie back to the original "protection" mentioned earlier... The Guard goes back behind the train and the driver goes forward...
I cover a large part of the country and everywhere I go is either track circuited or axle counter protected, I don't think there's much "absolute block" left... Even then things are reletively safe as the signalman can't sent a train into your section until you've cleared it (the next signal box confirming you've passed them)....
The most dangerous method of working is the "time interval" system, which just sent trains out at set intervals relying on the driver to spot the broken down train in front in time if things went wrong - they got rid of that in Victorian times and reintroduced it on our roads 100 years later! ;-)
I do wonder if the people on that train who left the train before they should had done so because no-one told them what was going on, driver only trains can result in little information being passed on to the passengers as he's busy sorting out other things... When we have problems on my train I do like to keep people informed and give timescales... However thats not always possible and I know from that incident I mentioned earlier that some will always "know better" than I - just like some of you... suffice to say that things do sometimes take time to sort out, if you can't accept that then I'd prefer it if you stuck to the roads!
Last edited by: hobby on Mon 1 Nov 10 at 15:36
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A senario for you one you may understand a little better.
A National express coach breaks down on the M1 just before a exit lets say 500 yards do we get all the folk off the bus including the elderly and children and walk up the hard shoulder to find the nearest cafe or do we sit there and wait for assistance?
The railways is no joke you can and will get killed there is tripping hazzards, uneaven ballast, new rail sections left at the side of the track, Broken manhole covers, broken cable trunking, and you lot with no idea of how a railway works wants to get off and walk for a cup of tea?
It's my job also when some numpty gets under a train either be it suicide or accident and the train takes them out i have to climb under there and get the train fixed to move it, It's not a pretty sight not what you see on tv and it makes me sick!
I have tried and many more have tried to explain how the railways work but please yourselves get killed i really don't care we have black humour just like the emergency services when your family are mourning you were having a pot of tea and a laugh!!
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Thanks for the clarity in that Bigtee - For one I wouldn't fancy a trackside amble, but not much to expect a properly structured response from train/company staff towards its captive audience when the wheel comes off...!
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At least now we know why the travellers aren't kept up to date - the driver is walking down the rails putting those strips across them!!
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At least now we know why the travellers aren't kept up to date - the driver is walking down the rails putting those strips across them!!
Our saftety & yours is our no1 concern so yes he walks down the track how long would it take you to walk 1 mile and 1/4 then back again by road?
Now tripple that because uneven ballast and those obsticles above plus if dark/wet/snow all add time, Im not bothered if you miss your dentist appointment or your late to a meeting safety of everybody comes first.
Yes i know your not told much i have heard it lots of times but plenty is going on and if the train had a canteen you would get free drinks but some don't, However when your late and get rescued we will get you a taxi home and give you a complaints form for you to "express your feelings" about the service you have received.
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you picked a bad example Bigtee because i can assure you when indeed if i was ever on a broken down coach on the M1 i would indeed be over the armco and up the banking even if it was snowing
self preservation is the order of my brew and dam those that try to tell me any different whether their armbands say btp or gestapo,im off up that hill or down that embankment train/bus /coach/ let me put it another way when in a cinema if ever, i look for possible escape routes,when on the channel ferry i always find out how to get to the lifeboats before i find the bar
;-)
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Quite right Bellboy. Over the armco and up the banking is a measured response to the very real risk of rear ending.
But once behind the armco you'd stay there rather than walk up the hard shoulder?
Railway signalling eliminates the rear ending risk; safest by far to stay on the train.
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My view is that the passengers were idiots and should have sat tight. I've sat outside Foxton station for more than an hour before - admittedly not without power.
The reason the passengers didn't sit tight it almost certainly the stupidity of the railway workers. It's sentences like this, courtesy of Bigtee that do it.
"They were luck they were not killed had this been 3rd rail with a live conductor rail"
But it's NOT a third rail part of the country! That's why people know they know more than the officials.
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Your House is on fire the firemen are outside your fast asleep there no1 concern is there own safety and that of there crew next comes yours they would like to get you out alive, so your house burns down & your Harley melts & your designer suits are now dust, none of this matters your alive!
The railway is just as dangerous im not too interested of this station i don't know it but this happens many times and stupid people like you are to blame you think you know better.
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>> The railway is just as dangerous im not too interested of this station i don't
>> know it but this happens many times and stupid people like you are to blame
>> you think you know better.
I'm not sure that calling me stupid was particularly polite.
Anyway, I think you're trying to say "well there might have been a third rail so they shouldn't have got out". This, you see, is exactly the problem of modern risk assessments. They don't assess real risks, they assess risks that don't exist at all. THEREFORE, on account of their being too cautious, by focussing on risks that have 0% probability - which is obvious even to stupid (sic) people like me - the entire system is thrown into disarray.
There is such a thing as being too cautious, and to mention a third rail in rural Cambridgeshire is a prime example of that. Of course getting off a train is spoilt-toddler behaviour, endangering the life of the passenger as well as that of staff. BUT a railwayman who says that they shouldn't have got off because of the third rail is not showing any level of common sense.
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>> But it's NOT a third rail part of the country! That's why people know they
>> know more than the officials.
Quite right, but passengers self evacuating has happened in 3rd/4th rail territory as well. They think they know where not to step - then trip.
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I'm a little saddened by some of the acidic responses to the likes of Bigtee and hobby, who've gone to some lengths to explain in laymans terms how these sort of things are dealt with. I thought we had better manners on here.
It's perhaps worth pointing out that this is not simply a case of flagging down the next train which happens to be passing, and letting everyone climb aboard. That only happens in old Western movies.
I don't often travel by train these days, but every time I have the journey has been punctual, the train clean and the staff friendly and polite. It has also been unusual for me to have to stand for more than a few minutes, and then usually by choice to avoid ill-behaved children. With the exception of the commuter hot-spots, I daresay that most peoples' experiences are similar. We never hear about that; sadly that is becoming the British way.
Last edited by: Harleyman on Mon 1 Nov 10 at 17:46
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Thinking back to the original story with reference to the BTP (British Transport Police) being called in to arrest any deserters, why didn't the BTP turn up and help passengers or even advise the passengers ?
According to the article the BTP where there(at the station ?) before the relief train arrived, So why not help ?
These passengers were left on the train for up to two and a half hours before help arrived.
Instead of penalising the paying passengers why not help ?
Just sums up the train service today. completely hopeless, dis-jointed and no proper management.
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While drunk, I staggered across several tracks at Earls Court tube station in London because I couldn't be bothered to use the footbridge.
I survived both the moving trains and the third rails, mostly by luck.
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I am surprised you were not arrested for being drunk.
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...I am surprised you were not arrested for being drunk...
Should have been, but I think I did it to catch a train, which I managed to do.
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I am guessing it was the days before CCTV and everything. Must admit I have sometimes have been tempted to cross metrolink lines when getting to the other side involves lots of steps and a five minute walk but would never do it, even though its actually quiet save as its all over head cables, no third rail.
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>> Should have been, but I think I did it to catch a train, which I
>> managed to do.
You were more than a bit lucky to avoid the train catching you!
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Diddy,
Not sure how accurate the press report would be. BTP are there to enforce the law on railway premises. Doubt they're equipped to help advise passengers; certainly no their job to replace the train company's customer service team.
Unfortunately when you get this sort of disruption there are a small minority of customers who think it's OK to abuse and even assault station staff. Therefore BTP will often be in attendance after incidents to provide some 'cover'. The only people penalised were the idiots who were trespassing on the railway endangering themselves and others.
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I have shown this thread to some staff here at work tonight and it's not printable what they said.!!
But if you want to tresspass on the railway carry on and do it i have tried to show you how it works & the consequene of what can happen but you know best.
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>> I have shown this thread to some staff here at work tonight and it's not
>> printable what they said.!!
>>
>> But if you want to tresspass on the railway carry on and do it i
>> have tried to show you how it works & the consequene of what can happen
>> but you know best.
>>
Perhaps you could be more explicit Bigtee? You have replied to Bromp who as far as I recall hasn't condoned or excused the escapers.
I am quite convinced, especially since reading and considering the comments in this thread, that there are very good reasons for not trespassing on the railway - not least that no train will move much while there are people at large, so it would genuinely delay any recovery process.
But I remain of the general opinion that like many other organisations, the rail companies go to pieces when anything goes wrong - usually in the way they handle their customers. The train operator and Network Rail should have been ready to deal with the world as it is, not as they would like it to be. It is almost inevitable that when 400 or so passengers are 500m from a station, if they are not kept informed and advised in the correct way, a few will decide that their best option is to walk down the track to the station.
Did the "train manager", or whatever they are called now, actually keep the passengers informed? And explain properly the reasons that passengers must remain on the train? And the possible consequences of not doing so?
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>> Did the "train manager", or whatever they are called now, actually keep the passengers informed?
>> And explain properly the reasons that passengers must remain on the train? And the possible
>> consequences of not doing so?
>>
I strongly suspect that even if they had, and had been able to keep the passengers supplied with drinks and toilet facilities, some would have ignored the instructions, simply because they were arrogant enough to think that they knew better than the train staff and could come to no harm. The nightmare scenario becomes apparent when the "sheep" start following the ringleaders.
I mentioned in an earlier post about witnessing livestock being hit by a train on a preserved line. The railway's official photographer was on the train, and took some graphic pictures which we used for a while to show to teenagers who we found trespassing on the line, to illustrate what could have happened to them. The practice ceased after the parents of one child complained that we had "distressed" the poor little darling, and threatened to sue the railway.
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>> Perhaps you could be more explicit Bigtee? You have replied to Bromp who as far
>> as I recall hasn't condoned or excused the escapers.
Re-reading what he said I think he has referred the whole thread to his colleagues, not just B's reply, so that was not a go at Bromp!
HM, that first para described exactly what happenned in that scenario I mentioned earlier... and we kept them informed, and the toilets were working, and there were drinks... and it only lasted a little over an hour... but some people are just too impatient... you see it on the roads every day, in supermarkets and banks where the queue has to be kept to a minimum or all hell breaks loose...
We could do with taking lessons from our European colleagues so slow down a bit, instead of trying to behave like impatient Americans...
Last edited by: hobby on Tue 2 Nov 10 at 09:26
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>> Did the "train manager", or whatever they are called now, actually keep the passengers informed?
>> And explain properly the reasons that passengers must remain on the train? And the possible
>> consequences of not doing so?
>>
We don't know... I'm not even sure if it had a guard... but even when people are kept full informed there are still some who know better... I think the main problem is that things take longer to sort out than they might if they were in familiar surroundings such as a road... the reason they do is because the railways are geared towards the safety of its passengers and staff as first priority, that can lead to things taking longer whilst safeguards are put in place to ensure people are evacuated safely...
Some of you may see that as unnecessary, but thats why our safety record is so good and I doubt someone whinging that their tea was cold when they got in late will change things...
And perhaps that last comment was as bad as some of the rail co's in the original story, but I don't care as I'd rather be safe than sorry...
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>> Not sure how accurate the press report would be. BTP are there to enforce the
>> law on railway premises. Doubt they're equipped to help advise passengers;
B, for a layman you are remarkably well informed! You are quite right they are not trained to evacuate trains, that is left to the experts, the driver guard and some network rail staff.
Bellboy, can I just pick up on what you said earlier about exits and "getting out" asap... You will find if you read the safety notices on trains that the safest place if things do go wrong is actually IN the train, it may be that you have to move coaches, but you are still a lot safer on board than on the track... Those notices are not there to wind people up, they are there to save peoples' lives and come from our experiences over 200 years of running trains and a safety record that even motorways can only dream of...
A Railway IS NOT a road and the dangers are VERY different and CANNOT be compared.
Bigtee, I haven't shown any of my colleagues this thread, though I'm sure their reaction would be the same as yours, as you say black humour would be used if the worst happenned, just like most emergency services...
However we'd rather we didn't have to use it, so despite it maybe it taking longer than you might want in this "we want it yesterday" society, we'd much rather you give us chance to sort things out rather than take risks with yours and other lives... So try a bit of patience for a change...
Please...
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Trains bite .....and they bite big. It's no good complaining after the event.......you probably won't be able to anyway !
There's an inquest just opened today in Liverpool regarding a boy who fried himself on top of rolling stock in sidings. Tragic and sad, devastating for his family, but the bottom line is...he shouldn't have been there.
I'll be interested to see just how much blame his relatives try to pour onto the rail operators in the next day or so.
I think they've already said that the power in the sidings shouldn't have been on.
Why not ? Its a working railway. I think there was a hole in the fence...but Railtrack don't make holes in their own fences, it's down to trespassers.
I've taken my 5yr old G'Son down to the un-opened Metrolink Lines here and told him he must never, ever go on railway lines.
Education.....that's the key. But so many just won't learn.
Ted
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Ted - nothing much changes around Liverpool! 20 years ago a chav had his head knocked off when on a train where he was messing about on, went under a bridge. It was a car transporter and he was trying to steal a radio from a car. At the inquest his Mother said " I blame Ford for this - they make it too easy for the kids!
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The most alarming part of the article is this:
"The remaining passengers were then locked on board by a rail official and warned they faced being arrested if they left."
There is no doubt that onboard a railway train is the safest place to be under normal circumstances. HOWEVER, railway trains can catch fire too, and emergency exits are there exactly for that purpose. The staff should never have locked the doors.
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Mappy,
It's only the journalese that's alarming.
The passengers who self evacuated would have operated the emergency handles to allow the sliding doors to be forced open. A rail official would then have closed and resecured the doors and, rightly in my opinion, warned any more wannabe tresspassers that they faced arrest.
Nothing to stop the doors being opened again if required.
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>>
>>
>> The passengers who self evacuated would have operated the emergency handles>>
So the staff locked the toilet as well?
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>>The passengers who self evacuated
Frightening images of lavatorial behaviour! ;>)
Edit: Beat me to it CP.
Last edited by: bathtub tom {p} on Tue 2 Nov 10 at 12:53
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...Arf, Arf!!!...
There would have been some self-evacuation if another train had come thundering down the line.
In the days before paramedics, a doctor friend of mine used to be called to road accidents.
He told me a bowel reaction to the shock of the smash was quite common among drivers, particularly if they were elderly.
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see that's another hazard for Humphs bathtub naval battle.
Brown Icebergs.
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Perhaps you could be more explicit Bigtee? You have replied to Bromp who as far as I recall hasn't condoned or excused the escapers.
I showed the whole thread to the lads at work and said some of you are jokers!!
I said it before some of you think you know better, Crack on and do as you please the BTP will arrest you cctv is at stations and they do prosecute even for £1.20 fare evasion.
Im laughing the staff are laughing reading the dribble...................
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I am so sorry to read this thread.
No wonder train staff are abused when they make public comments about their customers like some of the above.
In any noirmal company customers are treated with some kind of respect..
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In any noirmal company customers are treated with some kind of respect..
You won't respect the saftey of the railway why should we offer any of you the same respect back.
We get them moaning by the dozen usually when there drunk we have a good laugh at many.!!
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To be fair madf most, imo, try to treat customers with respect. All too often they're met with rudeness and even aggression; this from men in suits and ties who'd be mortified if anyone treated their wives/daughters the way I saw a female conductor treated recently.
Shoplifters don't necessarily get respect and neither should fare evaders.
The law also recognises, as with aviation, that the operational side of the railway is a dangerous place and criminalises trespass. The need for 'railway police', long predating the security role they now fulfil at London terminals, is another line in the same story.
If customers on trains fail to follow the reasonable instructions of staff, or go off and do they're own thing, staff are quite entitled to (a) restrain them and (b) express some annoyance. Try that on an airport or on some country's planes and it may be the last thing you ever do; you'll certainly acquire a very close familiarity with a cell!!
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this from men in suits and ties who'd be mortified if anyone treated their wives/daughters the way I saw a female conductor treated recently.
Spot on there.!!
If your genuine you get respect if you treat us like dirt we laugh at you, And usually stick you on the wrong train just for good measure............lol.........................
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>>And usually stick you on the wrong train just for good measure............lol.........................
Perhaps that attitude is why you're sometimes treated with the respect you deserve?
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...Perhaps that attitude is why you're sometimes treated with the respect you deserve?...
Come on bt, I think we all know what he means.
Did I read in one of your posts you once worked for BT?
I bet plenty of their engineers crossed a few wires on purpose to get their own back on an awkward customer - I would.
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>>I bet plenty of their engineers crossed a few wires on purpose to get their own back on an awkward customer - I would.
It's in my profile.
I had very little dealing with 'the great unwashed'. My role was on the technical side.
I did have a customer facing colleague who, (hopefully), inadvertently managed to transfer their number to mine a few times and I was left talking to someone who'd been 'bounced' around a few people. I'd listen to them rant and carefully explain that I couldn't do anything to help them, but I'd give them my name and direct line number, take their details and promise to escalate the problem. I'd tell them that if for any reason they were dissatisfied with the subsequent treatment they received, to call me back and I'd escalate it higher.
I'd then push the problem to, what I thought, would be a suitable level. I never received a follow-up call from a customer.
My actions were commented upon a couple of times, but I was never directly criticised.
Why make an awkward customer more angry?
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Why make an awkward customer more angry?
My view as well - stooping to conquer is always a good tactic..
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Perhaps that attitude is why you're sometimes treated with the respect you deserve?
If you don't like the railways walk or take the bus or drive.
Im getting a bit bored of this now you can't please everybody all of the time & why should we try with some.!
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I do sympathise Bigtee, I've been there too.
Pat
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>
>>
>> In any normal company customers are treated with some kind of respect..
>>
I have always been taught that to gain respect you must first give it. That works both ways.
The attitudes and prejudices of a few members of this forum towards HGV drivers, cyclists and motorcyclists is a case in point. Thankfully it's a lot better here than it was in t'other place.
Last edited by: Harleyman on Tue 2 Nov 10 at 18:15
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Rather old fashioned view, there, HM - nowadays you don't have to earn respect you just have to expect it, regardless of how you treat the other person, ask any teenager... Some of the comments are just a refelction of that attitude...
I get it all the time as a passenger guard... and being called a jobsworth when asking for money for a ticket that they could have bought before boarding... or travelling on the wrong train when they buy a ticket for a fiver but expect it to be ok 3 hours early! The list is endless... It would be nice to take some of the sceptics with me for the day to see how the "other half" live (like Pat did with the lorry driving), then you could see the abuse we get... but I doubt our company would allow it... it would put people off applying to join us!
Last edited by: hobby on Tue 2 Nov 10 at 18:56
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A line I travel on regularly, (no name!) has dispensed with some of their Revenue Protection Officers and replaced them with big ugly bods from ACE100 security with big leather belts, pepper spray, handcuffs and a very in your face attitude.
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>>I get it all the time as a passenger guard... and being called a jobsworth when asking for
>> money for a ticket that they could have bought before boarding... or travelling on the
>>wrong train when they buy a ticket for a fiver but expect it to be ok 3 hours early! The list is
>>endless.
You have my respect and sympathy Hobby.
Whilst I still think the train companies need to see the need to better manage passengers expectations in these situations - dealing as I said with people as they are, not how they would be if they had all been on the training course - the less I have to do with the Great British Public, the better.
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>> Whilst I still think the train companies need to see the need to better manage
>> passengers expectations in these situations - dealing as I said with people as they are,
>> not how they would be if they had all been on the training course -
>> the less I have to do with the Great British Public, the better.
>>
Manatee, can you step back and think about what you've asked us to do? I think you'll find its one of those situations where whatever we do it will be seen to be either not enough or too much...
For a start how do we make sure everyone hears the anouncement... people use headphones and don't hear us, then compain that no-one tells us what is going on... Then there are the level of inteligence of the passengers, what some may understand others won't... Then there are those who don't like "being told what do do and what not to do... "No one is bossing me around"...
An impossible task to please everyone I think you'll accept?
Dealing with the Public can be frustrating at times... but my job does have its rewards, one of which is that no day is alike, and the vast majority of our passengers are lovely people!
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Just because we have a few lorry drivers on here, doesn not make the place immune from gripes and groans about trucks and truck drivers.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 2 Nov 10 at 18:58
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>> Just because we have a few lorry drivers on here, doesn not make the place
>> immune from gripes and groans about trucks and truck drivers.
>>
I don't mind the gripes and groans; they're to be expected, and sometimes they're fully justified. Those of us who do vocational driving will naturally try to fight their corner, and educate where we can, but it's some of the entrenched attitudes and in some cases downright refusal to understand the other person's position that can test one's patience somewhat.
Hobby, I was taught old-fashioned. I've never found it a bad thing, even if it does occasionally stimulate the grumpy genes into premature action!
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i must come clean and put my fishing rod away on this one
enjoyed it though
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...i must come clean and put my fishing rod away on this one...
Am I the only one who is disappointed by that comment?
Several forum members who work on the railway have taken some time and trouble to explain how the job works from their side.
Yet Bellboy seems to be saying he was just winding people up.
If that is the case, he gets a big thumbs down from me.
Last edited by: Iffy on Tue 2 Nov 10 at 19:51
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dont throw your teddy too far it might be a steif
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...dont throw your teddy too far it might be a steif...
I'll take that as a 'yes' then.
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>>
>> Yet Bellboy seems to be saying he was just winding people up.
>>
>> If that is the case, he gets a big thumbs down from me.
In Bellboy's defence, I did have a look back up the thread, and only saw one comment of his which I thought was at all questionable; furthermore he raised the discussion of the possibility of being "struck from behind" which prompted more explanation of how it all works.
On balance, I'm prepared to forgive him. ;-)
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And me, there were other posts which wound me up more than his!
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Though I'd rather people didn't try to wind me up when I'm trying to give sensible and constructive answers... how would they feel if it was done to them I wonder...
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hobby
i sell s/h cars
im hated today/loved tommorow/hated/loved/hated
you get the picture?
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Sorry, BB, that second post did not relate to you... but I can see that you may well have thought it did!
Last edited by: hobby on Wed 3 Nov 10 at 09:26
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I did this about 25 years ago, the train was stopped for hours between Clapham Jct and Vauxhall due to snow. We were then informed that the live rail power had been switched off so all climbed out and tramped up the line.
I was pictured on the front page of the DT the next day climbing down from the carriage into a foot or so of snow.
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Well all I can say is that TOC management must be carp.
They should have zero tolerance of bad behaviour form passengers... or staff.
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I'd love to know how you could police that, MF!
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Just reading todays paper of a 26 ton cement truck crashed through the bridge onto a train down in Oxshott Surrey, Now this does have 3rd rail just think if this lot tried to jump for "safety" while that was live.
Fried humans springs to mind................
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I use S/W trains a lot and my recollection is that the 3rd rail is in the centre, between the two double tracks and I guess that, in an emegency requiring passengers to leave the train, the crew would prevent or discourage pax from opening the doors that did not lead sttraight out to the safe ground next to to the train.
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>> I use S/W trains a lot and my recollection is that the 3rd rail is
>> in the centre, between the two double tracks
Sorry, no its not. Its on the side.
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I've posted this on the other thread but it bears repeating.
The train has sustained remarkably little damage. Looks like a BR Mk3 based unit similar to the class 321 that used to run out of Euston. These things really were solidly built.
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Class 455 - same basic carriage design as class 321, only about 6 or so years earlier. Nearest relative is probably the 317.
OK, OK, I just take an interest in the things I travel about in, that's all...
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Yes its the old class 455. Carriage set 5913.
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>> Yes its the old class 455. Carriage set 5913.
>>
Class 455/9, with the smoother front-end design shared with class 455/7, but with 4 Mk. 3 derived carriages instead of 3 and 1 ex-class 508.
Good grief - can't believe I actually know that......
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[hides anorak under desk]
Ha Ha me too.
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Hobby knows what I meant!!!!
Last edited by: Perky Penguin on Sat 6 Nov 10 at 16:27
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Z, I think he meant between the double tracks rather than between the rails...
However I wouldn't rely on even that, PP! In stations the third rail is always in the centre to keep it away from the passengers on the platform, but everywhere else it could be either side of the track, it tends to depend on clearances... And at night its virtually impossible to see as it tends to be black in colour rather than the rust colour of the normal rail... If you do have to leave the train in 3rd rail areas be very careful... especially as the 750v is DC and will keep you hanging onto it if you do touch it!
Last edited by: hobby on Sat 6 Nov 10 at 16:05
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the third rail varies its side. Makes the shoes on the non rail side of the train live.
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Think it's only the underground that has a centre rail - presumably for current return.
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>> Think it's only the underground that has a centre rail
Not quite:
www.volkselectricrailway.co.uk/
The Underground uses four rails, like the line from Bury to Manchester before it was tramm'd... I'm not sure what rail does what as I'm not PTS'd for them, though I'd avoid all but the running lines just to play safe...
As for the type of set in that accident, I hadn't got a clue... my interests don't include Southern Region Electrics, I prefer narrow gauge!
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Think it's only the underground that has a centre rail
No it was Hornby Double O!
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Passengers abandon broken-down train - Berisford
