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Seems only a few models though. We'll see if more follow them.
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A few 'passenger vans' (Berlingo Multispace etc?) and pug 308 are mentioned.
Larger models too?
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This seems like a short term fix at best.
Strategically a dead end unless they believe the transition to EV will be cancelled or very substantially delayed. May be a political response to Trump cancelling the climate science!
Reality is the Chinese make cars that are completely acceptable to most of the market at a price European manufacturers struggle to compete.
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Let's hope it's not plagued with some of the issues their other engines suffer.
Yes, I know the engines were primarily from the PSA group, but Stellantis took on the ownership of them.
The 1.5 Blue HDi diesel engines suffer camshaft chain issues, which were fitted to the 2017-2023 Peugeot, Citroen, Opel/Vauxhall, DS and Fiat models.
The 1.2L PureTech engine, used widely in Peugeot, Citroën, DS, Opel/Vauxhall vehicles, is known for significant reliability issues, primarily centred around its wet belt system (a cam belt submerged in oil). This belt degrades prematurely, causing rubber debris to clog the oil strainer, resulting in oil starvation, severe engine damage, or total failure.
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Wet belt engines suffer problems if they are not maintained properly. And frankly, any engine that is not maintained is likely to give problems. Other wet-belt users include Ford - not just the Ecoboost in the Fiesta/Focus etc. but also the engines in the Transit (and thus also the new VW Transporter) and Ranger pick-ups. Also some Honda.
Wet belt compositions have changed as the technology and issues with it have evolved.
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>> The 1.2L PureTech engine, used widely in Peugeot, Citroën, DS, Opel/Vauxhall vehicles, is known for significant reliability issues, primarily centred around its wet belt system (a cam belt submerged in oil). This belt degrades prematurely, causing rubber debris to clog the oil strainer, resulting in oil starvation, severe engine damage, or total failure <<
It's not 'submerged', it's just oily. And they've been OK for many years now. It was the early pre 2018 DAYCO belts made of poor material which went crumbly, especially if cheapo oil was used at service intervals which rotted them. There are now millions of 1.2 Puretechs all over the world with resilient belts made of better material (e.g. Gates, or Continental 1228 is possibly the latest and best) happily powering cars like Mrs F's 2019 Peugeot 2008, which we have had from new. It has oil changes done by me every 10k miles so I know it gets the correct spec oil and regular inspection of its cambelt. I'd much rather have this than a diesel.
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Then again you could get an EV and have no cambelt to worry about :-)
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>>get an EV and have no cambelt to worry about :-)
Cambelts are expensive to change due to huge labour charges. HOWEVER a small petrol car depreciates but keeps some longer term value if looked after.
EV depreciation tends to fall off a cliff from day 1.
EVs can be a decent buy for 2nd hand buyer further down the line.
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No oil changes, leaking radiators, clutches, gear boxes or blown exhaust systems either come to that. Buying second hand EV a safer proposition than an ICE vehicle.
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>>Buying second hand EV a safer proposition than an ICE vehicle.
Which is fine if an EV does what you need.
They're not (yet) at the point where I'd tow with one.
If we still needed 2 cars EV with 200 miles range would do fine.
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“Which is fine if an EV does what you need.”
Which for the majority of people is true. Towing caravans is very much a minority sport.
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>> Which for the majority of people is true. Towing caravans is very much a minority
>> sport.
Towing may well be a minority thing but you can't just ignore something we don't all do.
There are other things EVs won't (yet) do in a way that suits me.
My habit of driving 600 miles to NW Scotland, most of it on one day, is only just becoming feasible. Regularly visiting kids living either side of the Wirral is another.
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>> Regularly visiting kids living either side of the Wirral is
>> another.
>>
I have a friend who regularly does Maidenhead - Manchester - Maidenhead to visit mother at weekends. In a Cupra Born. It's really not a problem.
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>> I have a friend who regularly does Maidenhead - Manchester - Maidenhead to visit mother
>> at weekends. In a Cupra Born. It's really not a problem.
I agree that it's more 'was a problem' but still not sure EVs are where I'd want to be for real world range and charging time.
Can he charge at his Mother's?
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>> Can he charge at his Mother's?
>>
Yes but a quick public charge instead wouldn't be a problem.
Leaves Friday after work, stops at the NEC charger hub for 20 mins and grabs a coffee and attends to the other end, same on the way home. Easy.
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I want ignoring it. Its just a fact that most people don’t tow caravans or anything else come to that. For the majority it’s not an issue.
Driving 600 miles in an EV isn’t a problem really. Depending on the car that’s one or two stops. I’ve driven to Oban from Norwich. I would agree that charging infrastructure in rural Scotland is a little thin and needs a bit of planning though.
I guess the only reason I wouldn’t buy an EV would be a lack of home charging.
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>> Which is fine if an EV does what you need.
>>
>> They're not (yet) at the point where I'd tow with one.
>>
We don't tow but EVs are not yet at the point where one could be our only vehicle. My wife has an Alfa Junior EV which is fine for local trips, but on Sunday we drove our (diesel) Peugeot back from Austria to Surrey - 875 miles door to door in one day of shared driving. I can't see an EV doing that. An extreme, yes, but we have three further European driving trips planned for this year, and again an EV would not work for those.
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The point is that an EV would work for most people. People who drive 800 miles in one day or tow caravans across Europe are very much the exception. For the vast majority of people’s usages they would work perfectly
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>> The point is that an EV would work for most people. People who drive 800
>> miles in one day or tow caravans across Europe are very much the exception. For
>> the vast majority of people’s usages they would work perfectly
No argument there CG but I'm not yet convinced enough to cope with range anxiety and finding chargers off the beaten track although Harris is surprisingly well endowed with facilities.
If we keep the Superb for our usual ten years, or at least until it's ten, I'll be in my seventies and am content to wait/see.
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No argument there CG but I'm not yet convinced enough to cope with range anxiety
>> and finding chargers off the beaten track although Harris is surprisingly well endowed with facilities.
>>
>> If we keep the Superb for our usual ten years, or at least until it's
>> ten, I'll be in my seventies and am content to wait/see.
>>
I think lots are in that boat, it's still too much of a step. Hence the stalling of EVs (%) being sold in the uk.
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Range anxiety is understandable when you have no experience of using an EV on a day to day basis, though I’ll happily take mine to France, Italy, or wherever without any route planning and just rely on the car to sort it out. But, wait and see is a rationale approach if you already have a newish car. My dad, who’s 80 this year, has only just changed one of their cars to an EV. He swapped his A3, which was 9 years old - and he kept that for 3 or 4 years longer than he’s ever kept a car while he dithered about making the switch. Biggest issue so far? He got a parking ticket when he used the A3s registration in Ringo to park :)
The next bit of ‘nudge’ influencing is to convince them that they really don’t need to replace Mums car as well. She is unduly worried about the age (8 years old now) of her car because again, usually it’s replaced every 5 or 6 years. I guess the only reason to have one that’s actually hers is in the likely outcome of Dad dying first, she’ll have a car that she’s used to and will see her out…a new car next year will mean she’s 88 or so when it next ‘needs’ replacing…which might prompt a different conversation!
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Out of curiosity, how do you inspect the cambelt?
What’s is the change frequency for these? Assume like many cambelts it won’t be in the ownership of the first owner so quite often neglected, as a second owner who has bought a used car doesn’t want a £1k service cost?
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>> Out of curiosity, how do you inspect the cambelt?
With the PureTech engine, you just remove the filler cap and can see it.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bob5h_aevis
There is also a dedicated gauge tool to measure belt width.
www.amazon.co.uk/TIMING-CHECKING-GAUGE-PEUGEOT-PURETECH/dp/B0D3ZG4LL8
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But that video and tool only allows you to check that bit that is visible?
Have seen plenty videos of replacements where some bits of belt looked fine and other bits the belt was disintegrated.
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>> But that video and tool only allows you to check that bit that is visible?
>> Have seen plenty videos of replacements where some bits of belt looked fine and other
>> bits the belt was disintegrated.
>>
Exactly Bobby, most pure crap belts start to.shed material from the toothed side, the only (semi?) Permanent solution is to replace the original belt with a quality replacement from someone like Gates, well worth dropping the sump as well to inspect the oil.pick up.strainer, its a 3- 4hour job but you do need a set of dedicated tools in order to lock the camshafts/ crankshaft.
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>> Out of curiosity, how do you inspect the cambelt?>>
Every 10k miles or so.
>> What’s is the change frequency for these? Assume like many cambelts it won’t be in
>> the ownership of the first owner so quite often neglected, as a second owner who
>> has bought a used car doesn’t want a £1k service cost? >>
According to the Service Schedule from the dealer, in the list of things to be done under 'Normal conditions of use' it should be replaced at 64,000 miles/6yrs then every 128,000 miles/12yrs. However, under the heading 'Arduous conditions of use', which mentions taxi, average speed below12mph, driving school, repeated short journeys (less than 6miles) with a cold engine, and, interestingly, as I can't see how it would affect the cambelt, 'use, even occasional.....of petrol containing >3% methanol.' (This is curious, because AFAIK E10 contains ethanol, not methanol)........it says every 70,000 miles/6yrs, then every 140,000 miles/12yrs. I think they've got the headings the wrong way round. Anyway, just like our old Focus, I have no intention of changing it unless it shows signs of wear. I've just read a post on another site which observed that the old cambelt looked as good as the new one, an observation frequently made about the good old Focus 1.6zetec cambelt - ours lasted the life of the car (21yrs and 160,000+ miles).
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>> It's not 'submerged', it's just oily. And they've been OK for many years now. It
>> was the early pre 2018 DAYCO belts made of poor material which went crumbly, especially
>> if cheapo oil was used at service intervals which rotted them.
And yet engines as late as 2022 are still failing.
Even the more recent camchain puretech engine is also having problems with chains stretching.
It really is a dog of an engine.
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My parents in law have a VX Grandland with the 130bhp version of this engine and I have found it quite impressive indeed. Torquey and economical and makes a nice thrumming sound too when driven hard. Its a shame then that a bit of penny pinching on the design of the cambelt has spoilt things (the proverbial fly in the ointment). Its enought to put me off owning one.
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The longer people pay moron tax driving their ICE, the happier I'll be.
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>> The longer people pay moron tax driving their ICE, the happier I'll be.
You'll get fleeced soon enough.
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>>You'll get fleeced soon enough.
We've all been getting fleeced since Jesus's dad was in short trousers - it's the degree of fleecing that varies.
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>> The longer people pay moron tax driving their ICE, the happier I'll be.
>>
I get the train/bike to work so my annual mileage is in four figures. My 'moron tax' and you so charmingly put it is the least of my worries when it comes to the amount of tax that I pay.
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I changed my car 18 months ago. I have always bought and not leased. Often keep car for 5/6 years and 60-100k. I considered going EV but chickened out on concerns about:
- range: long European trips + regular ~300 mile family/friends visits
- technology: rapid change impacting VFM and resale value
- spares and repairs: limited dealer network, unknown Chinese brands
Over the last 18 months having observed services in the UK and on two trips to Southern Spain, range concern is no longer a issue - after 3 hours driving (perhaps 150-200 miles) coffee, pee, food etc make a stop for a fast charge a no brainer.
Were I looking to buy today it may still be a difficult decision. In 2 years time I suspect EV would win out.
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This is the answer for anybody worried about "range anxiety":
ibb.co/vxT0mBR5
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As part of this resumption of diesel production, Stellantis have swapped out their long-running 2.0 HDI engine in the medium vans (Vivaro/Expert/Dispatch etc.) in favour of the 2.2 Multi-jet Fiat unit. Seems a bit strange for a van that has been around for nearly 10 years now, but I suppose there is method in their madness somewhere on the balance sheet?
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>> As part of this resumption of diesel production, Stellantis have swapped out their long-running 2.0
>> HDI engine in the medium vans (Vivaro/Expert/Dispatch etc.) in favour of the 2.2 Multi-jet Fiat
>> unit. Seems a bit strange for a van that has been around for nearly 10
>> years now, but I suppose there is method in their madness somewhere on the balance
>> sheet?
>>
Quite possible that after several years of running down diesel production in favour of EV and petrol, much of their diesel tooling and production facilities is well past its sell by date. I assume the 2.0 HDI is old tech.
They have simply gone for the cheapest and quickest way to get volume diesel production up and running.
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>> They have simply gone for the cheapest and quickest way to get volume diesel production
>> up and running.
As Terry says it's probably a question of what's easiest and/or cheapest, to use.
Less sure about 'old tech' as injectors, and stuff further up fuel flow can be updated as time goes by.
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friends who live in Spain primarily run diesel cars. Diesel fuel being cheaper than gasoline being one reason.
three friends bought diesel Dacia Dusters immediately prior to the introduction of the new Duster, which had no diesel option. Other friends drive older diesels ... Focus, XC60 etc.
out of all my Spain based friends only one has an EV, an Ioniq, but I notice plenty of EVs on the car rental fleets.
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Stellantis to resume diesel production - sooty123
