Motoring Discussion > Fighting a Hounslow charge	Miscellaneous
Thread Author: wotspur	Replies: 32

Sun 26 Jan 25 18:52   Fighting a Hounslow charge - wotspur

A person I know was sent a fine for entering Orchard Rd in Hounslow at 8.45, turning LEFT into this very narrow road, Off Wellington Road south, they have a sign either side ONLY as you enter the road stating No vehicles 8.15-9.15 and 2.45-3.45; except permit holders, because there is a school down there . TRUST ME fines are sent out during those times when the school isn’t open , ie Xmas and summer holidays There are no previous warning signs on the main road , and as I say it’s narrow, the sign on the LHS is hidden by the column of the vehicle and the RHS by any large vehicle . The ability to know the time at any set period whilst driving is virtually impossible to know , to see the signs turning left is virtually impossible and typical of Hounslow they’ve rejected the appeal - as do they do legitimate appeals , as I already know . Would you pay an unjust fine ,or fight it to court and hopes the judge sees sense ,surely you have to know you’re breaking a law to be found guilty of it, after all in 1/1000000 chance you see these signs , know the time , there is zero time to react you’d have to do an emergency break, possibly get a bus or lorry crashing into you , you'd then have to reverse out back onto a main road, which I understand is an illegal manoeuvre . Any thoughts. Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 26 Jan 25 19:08   Fighting a Hounslow charge - smokie

Looks like it's just along here to the left www.google.com/maps/@51.4622245,-0.3761384,3a,75y,191.74h,93.22t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1slv_SCnC-o9pKpDSXpdLA8g!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-3.2236923256372023%26panoid%3Dlv_SCnC-o9pKpDSXpdLA8g%26yaw%3D191.7390436353898!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDEyMi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D Looks to me like it's a very easy mistake to make but I'm not sure there's much to fight. It's signed like other similar roads (incl No Entry ones) would be. Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 26 Jan 25 19:59   Fighting a Hounslow charge - wotspur

No entry signs are Red and white so deliberately obvious , whether you turn into an smal road ans this one is , or a massive road and are 24/7 .,and more often than not and normally have signs on a main road prior These signs have lots of information relating to just a certain time and Norwich I bet if I was in your car , and randomly asked you the time, most times l you would unlikely know the time ,in relation to a sign . I suggest you didn’t drive to Hounslow or Ealing . In Southwark they have similar signs , but the signs are deliberstly angled so the one on the RHS Is visible by those turning left Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 26 Jan 25 19:51   Fighting a Hounslow charge - CGNorwich

Sorry but the signs look pretty clear to me. In fact difficult not to see them when turning. Not sure why you think it is impossible to know the time whilst driving. Don't see how the fine is "unjust" more than any other fine for breaking motoring regulations. I'd just pay and try to be bit more observant. Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 26 Jan 25 20:23   Fighting a Hounslow charge - Zero

Its a 30 MPH road, the sign is angled slightly for better visibility, its double yellow lines so no vehicle will obscure it. Any competent driver should see it unless they are driving without due care and attention Offence committed, judge will uphold it. Fine is valid. Last edited by: Zero on Sun 26 Jan 25 at 20:23 Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 26 Jan 25 21:05   Fighting a Hounslow charge - tyrednemotional

>> Its a 30 MPH road...... ...actually, quite prominently a 20mph road. (I thought you'd just had your eyes done!) ;-) Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 26 Jan 25 21:09   Fighting a Hounslow charge - Zero

I drive a BMW, speed limits do not apply to us. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 27 Jan 25 18:10   Fighting a Hounslow charge - wotspur

So let’s assume , you’d been driving along this road, which is a 20mph , and you magically knew the time ,and you’d started turning into the narrow road , and managed to stop . Is it not illegal to reverse back out on to the main road ? Assuming a lorry or bus hadn’t hit you up the Rrrrrs Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 27 Jan 25 18:46   Fighting a Hounslow charge - smokie

The internet tells me that "Reversing onto a main road is not illegal, but it is strongly discouraged due to safety concerns. The Highway Code advises against reversing from a side road into a main road because it increases the risk of accidents. If an accident occurs while reversing onto a main road, you could be prosecuted for driving without due care and attention". It does go on to suggest that "It's always safer to find a suitable place to turn around or reverse into a side road or driveway instead". I think you could be charged with the same offence for turning into the road in the first place so you takes your chances :-) I'd say it is a reasonably easily made mistake and had I done it I'd more likely have turned around (if it's not one-way) in the road but I may have carried on down. It'd depend how lucky I felt at the time. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have reversed back onto a main road. However an offence has been committed and recorded and I'd just cough up. (How would anyone in authority know if it was a genuine mistake or someone using the rat run?) Of course your friend wasn't aware he'd committed the offence so had no reason to back out or turn around. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 28 Jan 25 02:29   Fighting a Hounslow charge - Bromptonaut

>> So let’s assume , you’d been driving along this road, which is a 20mph , >> and you magically knew the time ,and you’d started turning into the narrow road , >> and managed to stop . Mrs B/my kids have had, for donkey's years, a running gag about me knowing the exact time +/- 5 minutes whenever asked. Other people/real world, I think the idea you'd see a road sign like this and, in the mid 21st century, not have a timepiece you can glance at it you're in doubt as to whether it's nine or noon is for the birds. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 28 Jan 25 12:34   Fighting a Hounslow charge - sooty123

>> Mrs B/my kids have had, for donkey's years, a running gag about me knowing the >> exact time +/- 5 minutes whenever asked. Other people/real world, I think the idea you'd >> see a road sign like this and, in the mid 21st century, not have a >> timepiece you can glance at it you're in doubt as to whether it's nine or >> noon is for the birds. >> I think some people have little awareness of things like, small unfamiliar roads, signs to read, look at the time. Trying to do all this in a few seconds its way too much for some people. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 28 Jan 25 15:17   Fighting a Hounslow charge - CGNorwich

"I think some people have little awareness of things like, small unfamiliar roads, signs to read, look at the time. Trying to do all this in a few seconds its way too much for some people." Scary to think they are driving around in control of a motor vehicle. They'd be safer on the bus. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 28 Jan 25 16:01   Fighting a Hounslow charge - Fullchat

"I think some people have little awareness of things like, small unfamiliar roads, signs to read, look at the time. Trying to do all this in a few seconds its way too much for some people." Scary to think they are driving around in control of a motor vehicle. They'd be safer on the bus." Bit harsh. These days a sign is the cure for any issue. There's information overload. Couple that with being in an unfamiliar place and a multitude of distractions like watching cyclists (pedal and motor) trying to undertake whilst trying to drive safely, then its hard for something not to give when you are proritising your drive. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Tue 28 Jan 25 22:00   Fighting a Hounslow charge - CGNorwich

"Bit harsh." Perhaps but driving safely is all about that stuff. If you cannot cope you shouldnt be doing it Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 28 Jan 25 23:19   Fighting a Hounslow charge - smokie

One mistake isn't necessarily a fail is it. Some of us are smart enough to recognise when we've made a mistake and open enough to admit it!! I can't believe you never have, maybe you just never noticed it :-) Reply to this message | Report message       1

Wed 29 Jan 25 09:52   Fighting a Hounslow charge - CGNorwich

Of course anyone can make a mistake but if you regularly cannot cope with the pressures of modern driving , miss signage, speed limits and the like then you shouldn’t be driving. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 29 Jan 25 11:35   Fighting a Hounslow charge - Fullchat

Defensive driving is often about how you can rectify that mistake safely without causing an issue to yourself and others. Its not about driving like Miss Daisy but anticipation,positioning and spacing can give additional reaction time. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 29 Jan 25 12:12   Fighting a Hounslow charge - CGNorwich

"It's not about driving like Miss Daisy but anticipation,positioning and spacing can give additional reaction time." Absolutely, and the key to it is observation and awareness of the environment and vehicles around you. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 29 Jan 25 13:17   Fighting a Hounslow charge - Zero

I am gonna be very brutal here. Its a narrow busy 20mph main road. The entrance into the forbidden zone is very sharp, very narrow, has a very prominent speed hump, is on the Zig Zags to a crossing. One must be traveling at a very low speed to attempt the left turn and with all that going on should be paying close attention. If you miss the obvious sign, you deserve to be fined. If I had done it I would be blaming me, not heaving up a million and one mitigations, excuses, and ways to avoid being fined. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 29 Jan 25 13:58   Fighting a Hounslow charge - Bromptonaut

OP not been back in last few days. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 29 Jan 25 12:32   Fighting a Hounslow charge - Ted

I also add 'disbelief ' to FC;s post. Never assume someone is actually going to do what they're signalling to do. The road from our area leads into a very busy main road. used to be a give way. Many times I've been waiting to come out when a car coming from my right has been signalling to come into 'my' road only to carry on in front of me and turn left into the filling station 50 ft past the junction ! Disbelief saves you a banana shaped car ! The System of Car Control tells us " Always be in the right place at the right time at the right speed ". Ted Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 29 Jan 25 07:09   Fighting a Hounslow charge - sooty123

I'd think quite a few would like to give up driving but necessity probably keeps them behind the wheel. Bit different in London where there's public transport and so can ditch the car, other areas not so much. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 28 Jan 25 21:49   Fighting a Hounslow charge - sooty123

>> "I think some people have little awareness of things like, small unfamiliar roads, signs to >> read, look at the time. Trying to do all this in a few seconds its >> way too much for some people." >> >> Scary to think they are driving around in control of a motor vehicle. They'd be >> safer on the bus. >> Hopefully not driving it. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 28 Jan 25 22:05   Fighting a Hounslow charge - tyrednemotional

>> Hopefully not driving it. >> If it were a school bus, it'd probably be ok doing that turn... Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 28 Jan 25 13:13   Fighting a Hounslow charge - zippy

>>not have a timepiece you can glance at it you're in doubt as to whether it's nine or noon is for the birds. You're not wrong. Just an observation....not being at work at the moment - I struggle to know what day of the week it is! :-S Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 28 Jan 25 13:54   Fighting a Hounslow charge - Bromptonaut

>> Just an observation....not being at work at the moment - I struggle to know what >> day of the week it is! :-S Working a T W A T week ie Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday has a similar effect. I'm forever putting the radio on at Midday on Friday for Moneybox which is at Midday Saturday. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 28 Jan 25 14:29   Fighting a Hounslow charge - Zero

>> So let’s assume , you’d been driving along this road, which is a 20mph , >> and you magically knew the time ,and you’d started turning into the narrow road , >> and managed to stop . Let us assume that A: It is clearly a Car and motorbikes forbidden sign which would make you think carefully about entering the road, till you notice the times sign, and B: you can check the clock on the dash. Nothing magical about it. It was an easily avoidable offence with a little care and attention. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 28 Jan 25 14:41   Fighting a Hounslow charge - smokie

I agree with Z but I also think it is an easy one to make, especially if it's unfamiliar territory (or even over-familiar). Still can't imagine a grounds for appeal though! Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 28 Jan 25 15:08   Fighting a Hounslow charge - Zero

>> I agree with Z but I also think it is an easy one to make, >> especially if it's unfamiliar territory (or even over-familiar). Of course it is, but you go "Hey my bad I screwed up, take the penalty move on" Not. "Must be anything but my fault" Reply to this message | Report message       2

Mon 27 Jan 25 07:52   Fighting a Hounslow charge - RichardW

Post it over at ftla.uk There are many reasons the PCN might be invalid, many of which are nothing to do with the original offence! There's no judge as such, the final arbiter (after the issuing council - no conflict of interest at all! They almost always reject an initial appeal) is the Traffic Penalty tribunal. If the discount has not been re-offered then it might as well be taken to the tribunal as it costs nothing extra. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Mon 27 Jan 25 08:11   Fighting a Hounslow charge - Bromptonaut

It looks clear enough to me. Whether by design or not the sign on the far side of the junction is angled so you'd see it. In any event an observant driver should be looking for prohibitive signs. As it's in Greater London then I think you'd fight it via London Tribunals rather than in court. The Council's letters will explain the appeal rights. Personally I think it's pretty hopeless but the appeal is free and the success rate for those who can find the time to attend in person is pretty good. I won one there a few years ago for a parking infringement in Camden. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 27 Jan 25 08:53   Fighting a Hounslow charge - martin aston

I think time info on some signs can be too complicated to read in flowing traffic. Bus lane times can be tricky and sometimes aren’t repeated once you’ve passed. However in this case the vehicles prohibition is clearly signed. If there isn’t time to read the rest you have two main choices. You either don’t turn in or you take a risk and proceed. If the signs meet the legal requirement I can’t see much chance of success. I’d be annoyed if it happened to me. With myself as much as the signage. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 27 Jan 25 17:02   Putting Reg on Retention - Ted

The only one I've ever had was a car park in Stockport. It was a particularly notorious one in the area. My SiL had parked an old Escort that he'd borrowed off me and got a £120 ticket. from the private company. I let it drag on for a while until I got bored and suggested they contacted the person who parked the car ! Yes, it was in the happy days when the couldn't hit the keeper.....me ! I did get a bus lane one outside Victoria Station in Manchester. I'd forgotten it was buses and taxis only. My fault but when you're up the chuff of a double decker and can't see the signs on the road or on the poles then you've no chance. I phoned as soon as the ticket arrived, paid my £30, had a laugh with the girl on the other end and duly forgot about it ! Ted Reply to this message | Report message