www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c20626dy9d6o
800 job losses in the UK. Their model range seems to be pretty poor and their EVs are struggling.
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Any company that dumps the UK's best seller (Fiesta) and calls a run of the mill electric small SUV "The Capri". deserves all they get.
The company that turned out the best range of cars during the 70's and early 80's has fallen in the dunny.
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>> Any company that dumps the UK's best seller (Fiesta)...
Madness.
It was the small car learner drivers aspired to. I had a MK1 Ghia, a MK2 (horrible). A couple of MK3s - competent.
Friends wife got a new one in 2018 and loves it and won't part with it. If there was another one she would upgrade but doesn't want to stretch to a Puma at almost £26k.
(For a while some of the body panel fits on the rear were awful, but seemed to get better again with the last model.)
Last edited by: zippy on Thu 21 Nov 24 at 13:33
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Madness
Perhaps not from an economic viewpoint. Car makers have historically lost money on manufacturing small cheap cars. One of the reasons they are in such a parlours position today. They need to drive up the average cost of vehicles.
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>> Madness
>>
>> Perhaps not from an economic viewpoint. Car makers have historically lost not made so much money on manufacturing small
>> cheap cars
They were used as marketing "step in and step up the range" later to where cars with longer options lists and larger profit margins lay.
Today cars have a standard option list that suits most people, and are not inclined to spec up their cars.
Mostly tho, its aspiration and marketing the big companies have lost, and area they used to excel at. And style, Ford no longer know the meaning of the word, everything they make is pig ugly
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I was looking at a newish Fiesta the other day and noticed how they've grown in size, they make the old Mk1 and two Cortinas look small. The Ka is now the Fiesta of the Ford range.
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>> I was looking at a newish Fiesta the other day and noticed how they've grown
>> in size, they make the old Mk1 and two Cortinas look small. The Ka is
>> now the Fiesta of the Ford range.
Not been made since 2021
The current Ford range. www.ford.co.uk/cars
Little wonder sales are falling.
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>>
>>
>> Not been made since 2021
>>
>> The current Ford range. www.ford.co.uk/cars
>>
>> Little wonder sales are falling.
>>
They all look virtually identical.
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>> Madness
>>
>> Perhaps not from an economic viewpoint. Car makers have historically lost money on manufacturing small
>> cheap cars. One of the reasons they are in such a parlours position today. They
>> need to drive up the average cost of vehicles.
>>
Or make them cheaper - they don't need to be so big - less metal, less plastic, less carpet etc. Smaller brakes required etc.
A lot of the tech isn't needed either, who needs rain sensing wipers, auto main beam off, huge StarTrek like displays etc.
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Add to that, electric windows, central locking etc.
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....yeah, they should have stopped at the Model T....... ;-)
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Recently replaced my car. Looked at the Ford range - not a single vehicle got anywhere close to the short list.
Also currently in Spain using hire car - they gave me a Ford Puma. Not impressed. Sometimes you get hire cars which make you think positively (eg: wifes car needs changing) - this one is on the avoid list.
Ford have simply failed and their decline may be terminal - they are well behind the EV curve and it is unclear how they could catch up.
Bring back the Fiesta ain't going to work - it WAS an excellent small or first car but to compete in the brave new EV world needs an EV designed from the tyres up. Grafting batteries and electric motor into old tech will fail.
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>> Ford have simply failed and their decline may be terminal - they are well behind
>> the EV curve and it is unclear how they could catch up.
>>
>> Bring back the Fiesta ain't going to work - it WAS an excellent small or
>> first car but to compete in the brave new EV world needs an EV designed
>> from the tyres up. Grafting batteries and electric motor into old tech will fail.
>>
Small electric cars can work and I agree, Ford are well behind the curve: Renault have just launched an all electric Renault 5 to good reviews. Hyundai have a new small car called the Inster which gets good reviews too, the later is electric only here but there is a petrol version in Korea.
Other manufacturers have models that can take combustion, hybrid or all electric drive systems. Hyundai make the Kona, perhaps not the most exciting vehicle but apparently it has very good electric range. I guess, it was designed to take varying types of drive train. As you said, bolting on a system to a chassis not designed for it, will be problematic, but they have had years to design something and could have partnered with someone else (Mazda perhaps).
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>> ....yeah, they should have stopped at the Model T....... ;-)
>>
I think some motoring journalist made a quip that cars in the late '90s or early '00s were optimal, price, specification and reliability wise.
Something to do with no trailblazing new technology that wasn't tried and tested, huge levels of sales that kept costs low etc.
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Daughter’s husband had a Fiesta and now a Puma.
Daughter has a 3 door 67 Corsa and is looking to replace it as they now have a baby.
All 3 cars have heated windscreen and to my daughter it is an absolute dealbreaker that any new car needs to have it.
Only Ford seem to have it as standard. Yeah some other models if you search autotrader might have had one optioned by its previous owner. But very rare.
And of course , Ford have ecoboom engines!
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To be fair, the Ecoboost engine is not as bad as reported, given the millions that are in use and have been for a number of years, the outcry would be much worse if it was. Its a pokey little unit for its size and good MPG.
Two issues, small capacity water jacket, couple that to a frail expansion pipe means a loss of water results iin almost instant overheating damage.
The infamous wet belt, incorrect oil and irregular servicing leads to the belt shedding fibres, blocking the oil pickup and circulation or the belt failing.
Generally speaking tho, there is nothing in the Ford line up that would tempt me to part with my money, and with Ford dropping from 1st in 2019 to 5th in 2024, and forecast lower than that in 2025, it seems everyone feels the same way.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 21 Nov 24 at 21:50
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I understand curent new models have a cam chain and the oil pump drive on the 3-cyl Dragon is geared.
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>..to my daughter it is an absolute dealbreaker that any new car needs to have it.
Heated screen is another thing I miss from the Jag. Went out at 6:30 last night and the car was covered in ice/frost. Jag would have cleared the screen in less than a minute but had to wait ages for the heater/demist to work on the BMW. In fact I'm regretting selling the Jag and if a last-of-the-line V8 in the right spec comes up for sale I'll be there.
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>>Heated windscreens.
The patent must have expired by now and I am really surprised that we don't see more cars with them.
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Ford 1.0 eco bust engines from around 2019 have chain drive camshafts , but still retain a wet belt for the oil pump . These later engines have the turbo located at the back of the engine, rather than the front. That’s how you can tell the difference.
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>> The patent must have expired by now and I am really surprised that we don't see more cars with them.
It has a long time ago. A patent lasts 5 years. If you want it to stay in force after that, you must renew it every year, up to a maximum of 20.
On Wheeler Dealers the other day, Mike visited a factory that makes heated screens for pretty much any vehicle.
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Best deals I can see at the moment:
www.new-car-discount.com/car/ford/explorer/4x4/all/all
www.new-car-discount.com/car/hyundai/ioniq-5/hatchback/all/all
Can't see any reason I'd pick the Ford. The Ioniq 5 is marginally bigger than the Explorer.
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Don’t really need them on my EV. Just turn on the AC ten minutes before you get in the car and you get in a cosy warm car with heated seats and steering wheel and a frost clear screen.
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>>Don't really need them on my EV. Just turn on the AC ten minutes before you get in the car and you get in a cosy warm car with heated seats and steering wheel and a frost clear screen.
Aye - couple of clicks on the phone and job's a good 'un.
Usually have to clear the gaffer's car tho :-(
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Looks like Jaguar have booked their place in the "how to kill your product" asylum with Ford
www.independent.co.uk/life-style/jaguar-rebrand-new-logo-cars-anger-b2651702.html
I know Elon Musk is no recommendation, but this has garnered universal ridicule in all market segments.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 22 Nov 24 at 18:52
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I think the idea is to kill the brand or at least the perception as to what a Jaguar was and start again with something new. The old image of Jaguar was not doing them any favours. Whether it works will be interesting to see .
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>> I think the idea is to kill the brand or at least the perception as
>> to what a Jaguar was and start again with something new. The old image of
>> Jaguar was not doing them any favours. Whether it works will be interesting to see
>> .
>>
It has certainly got a lot of internet attention. Probably more than the marketers could have imagined.
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From what I've read production has ceased for all existing models with a few I-Pace vehicles being available for fleet and ccorporate buyers until mid 2025. The new EV-only vehicles will be introduced from 2026 onwards so in effect they've closed down the company and will be starting again as a completely new outfit.
All the new models will apparently be high-end £100k+ with the first one being a 'GT' model.
Obviously, they think that selling continental cruisers to blokes in tutus will be a hugely successful start for them.
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One of Jaguar’s problems is that they’ve never quite managed to shake off the “old man’s car” image. Perhaps this will finally do it.
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I'll bet this old mans pension its a disaster,
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>One of Jaguar’s problems is that they’ve never quite managed to shake off the “old man’s car” image.
If they wanted to create a new image why not do it the established way by forming a new company alongside the parent company? Chevy-Pontiac, Toyota-Lexus, Nissan-Infiniti.
Why trash one of their most valuable assets, the Jaguar brand.
Last edited by: Kevin on Fri 22 Nov 24 at 21:40
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>>
>> If they wanted to create a new image why not do it the established way
>> by forming a new company alongside the parent company? Chevy-Pontiac, Toyota-Lexus, Nissan-Infiniti.
>>
...Cheetah... ?
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Why trash one of their most valuable assets, the Jaguar brand.”
I guess they believe the brand as is is a liability rather than an asset.
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>> Why trash one of their most valuable assets, the Jaguar brand.”
>>
>> I guess they believe the brand as is is a liability rather than an asset.
In that case, you don't use the same name, you have a new name
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Well you might think so but trying to get in the head of the marketing types I think perhaps they are happy with certain aspects of the brand, it is well known outside UK and noted for technical excellence for example What they don’t like is the ageing white male, fusty image that goes with it at the moment. They want to keep the first and ditch the latter.
Now this might be a marketing disaster or an absolutely brilliant move but you can bet an awful lot of time and money has gone into this change These decisions are not just random. I have no idea how it will pan out but it will be interesting to watch
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I guess jaguar had to do something i believe they've lost money for years. The white cliffs of dover, golf club, pensioner etc look hasn't worked for some time.
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>> I guess jaguar had to do something i believe they've lost money for years. The
>> white cliffs of dover, golf club, pensioner etc look hasn't worked for some time.
That image and market died out int he 70's. The fact is they haven't actually produced a car that anyone wants for some years. Changing the name is not going to change the fact that JLR product quality and longevity has a terrible reputation. There would be (nearly was) a Jaguar XF sportbrake on my drive if I had had any faith in its build.
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Since people today only want to buy SUVs, with the bigger the better, selling estate cars is unlikely to be a profitable activity.
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>> Since people today only want to buy SUVs, with the bigger the better, selling estate
>> cars is unlikely to be a profitable activity.
>>
Go in to a showroom and the majority of cars are SUVs.
Look at the close I live in and I have the only SUV.
Last edited by: zippy on Sat 23 Nov 24 at 13:03
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>>Now this might be a marketing disaster or an absolutely brilliant move but you can bet an awful >>lot of time and money has gone into this change These decisions are not just random. I have no
>>idea how it will pan out but it will be interesting to watch
I agree with CGN and Sooty on this.
The advert doesn't "offend" me like it seems to have done for many commentators elsewhere.
I thought, that's colourful and the genders of the of the models and what they were wearing seemed irrelevant to me.
At the end of the day, if the cars appeal to a buyer, they will buy it.
AIUI, they are going all electric. Leasing companies may be middlemen, but their large corporate customers - the large multinational corporations have lots of "green" targets to meet. Switching their company cars to all electric may help.
Last edited by: zippy on Sat 23 Nov 24 at 10:40
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>> AIUI, they are going all electric. Leasing companies may be middlemen, but their large corporate
>> customers - the large multinational corporations have lots of "green" targets to meet. Switching their
>> company cars to all electric may help.
>>
They have stopped production for a year or so, new car is out for publicity in 2 weeks. That should give them some breathing space to build a new image and throw off their stuffy old fashioned image and appeal to a wifer audience. Lots of jobs in the uk are depend on Jaguar, hope they do it.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 23 Nov 24 at 21:15
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What would be truly useful is some input from a 20 or 30 something. These are the folk upon which the future of Ford or Jaguar rely.
I am in my 8th decade (just) I suspect many forum members are either not far behind of slightly ahead of me.
Our attitudes towards cars and brands seems dominated by what was several decades ago. The Jaaag was premium golf club transport in the 1960-80s. Mondeo man retired a decade ago.
Our opinions are not important - those of Millennials and Gen X are.
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Our opinions are not important - those of Millennials and Gen X are.
Exactly and they havent been buying Jaguarsl. One of the big changes is that young people especailly those living in London do noto have the same view of cars as did thier parents. Regarded as rather uncool and basically an unavoidable necessity rather than something to be desired. Surprising number of young people dont even have a licence
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>>Regarded as rather uncool and basically an unavoidable necessity rather than something
>> to be desired. Surprising number of young people dont even have a licence
Then why target them?
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so there is the mystery, who IS the target market?
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I guess people who are younger need a car, can afford a jag but aren't buying them at the moment.
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>> I guess people who are younger need a car, can afford a jag but aren't
>> buying them at the moment.
>>
I am not sure about £100k cars and young buyers, but company car drivers are buying Teslas. If Jaguar can make a £40-50k Tesla beater, they could rake it in.
Last edited by: zippy on Sat 23 Nov 24 at 23:37
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If Polestar are struggling to shift £50k EVs with enormous discounts, I'm not holding my breath for £100k+ Jags
www.new-car-discount.com/car/polestar/2-fastback/hatchback/electric/automatic/310kw-82kwh-long-range-dual-motor-5dr-4wd-auto/22/
Last edited by: Lygonos on Sun 24 Nov 24 at 00:34
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>>If Polestar...
I hope someone can give Tesla some competition, otherwise cars will be very boring.
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>> >>If Polestar...
>>
>> I hope someone can give Tesla some competition, otherwise cars will be very boring.
Afraid the exciting pony escaped the stable some time ago and is disappearing over the hills
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>> Afraid the exciting pony escaped the stable some time ago and is disappearing over the
>> hills
>>
images.app.goo.gl/H5vvZx1qHg9uzhjC9
This one from Hyundai is a looker! Probably going to cost a fortune.
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Tesla? About as exciting as the margarine tubs they look like.
Milk floats were a perfect application for EVs. A known range requirement, back at base for charging every night and ready to go the next day. If that is your usage pattern they are ideal.
I've come across a few people who put their faith in public chargers and are very disillusioned.
The next phase of take up will be much tougher.
Terry made the valid point that we are not a representative opinion panel. But I think we are qualified to say their new positioning is unlikely to attract their traditional customers.
Most EV take up so far in UK has been employee related either company cars or salary sacrifice schemes. We have yet to see while hearted commitment from people writing cheques on their own accounts.
Young adults will still presumably need personal transport but they don't seem to be interested in cars in the way that our generation was. They defer learning to drive if they don't need to, and when they do they increasingly go auto-only. They are perhaps more likely to see cars as appliances. Low cost producers will domimate. Jaguar is trying to establish a niche, by necessity, unless it moves production away from Europe.
Last edited by: Manatee on Sun 24 Nov 24 at 12:56
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Any new jaguar, is by financial and technical necessity, going to be based on a existing or new group (thats Tata motor group*) platform/drive train, which means its never going to be dynamically exciting. So its going to need a wow factor, looks or brand image
*probably not Range Rover platform, which with its niche off road requirements, needs to be different.
Things have not gone well so far, with the Jaguar director now defending the branding direction by throwing insults at the critics.
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Coffee with a mate this morning and his wife commented...
If only they were ready to bring out a cool electric vehicle now.
All those people who refuse to buy Tesla because of Elon, could be biting at the bit to buy Jaguar.
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Jaguar binned an electric XJ a couple of years ago that was a gnats away from release. I think it was built on a modified X351 platform.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=loMIYkHgy18
They have said that the upcoming models will be built on a brand new EV-specific platform.
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media.smmt.co.uk/q3-2024-used-car-sales/
Looks like more people are holding onto their cars and buying ev but second hand. I see a few EVs struggling to attract much attention second hand residuals are pretty poor.
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The Jaguar brand seems to be held in high esteem by those who perceived them (justifiably) as very desirable in the 1950-80s.
They are now mostly in their 60-80s, no longer Jag drivers, looking for something economical and cheaper to run.
Let's assume the new Jag is a technological triumph - albeit affordable only by a few. This is a market where excellence in performance and finish should be a given - folk are buying a brand or lifestyle accessory.
Do those who are successful, probably age 30-60, hanker after a Jag, or is their premium brand of choice more likely to be BMW, Lexus, Tesla, Mercedes, Range Rover etc - as has been the case for the last decade. or more.
I'm not sure Jaguar have a brand of any real value any more. Its traditional supporters are aging. Potential buyers will need to forgo their affection for their current brand. An uphill struggle - I would not be buying shares in Jaguar.
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“- I would not be buying shares in Jaguar.”
Seem to remember about five years or so ago on here we were all saying that Tesla had no future and were certain to go bust once the established auto makers starting churning out EVs.
I think the consensus was also that Chinese cars also had no future.
A punt on Jaguar might be worthwhile:-)
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>A punt on Jaguar might be worthwhile:-)
Well I won't be unless they fire the whole C-suite and Marketing Dept.
I still haven't worked out why or who decided that they could or should try to change the brand "image" when any likely product is still vapourware or a mockup.
When the ad first appeared I really hoped that they'd been clever and it would be quickly followed by a "Ha! Fooled you! This is what we've REALLY got coming!" I didn't think anyone could be so thick to jump on the woke bandwagon 5 years behind the curve and think it would somehow make them hip.
But, of course, I'm biased. I'm a Jaguar fan. I've owned XJs for years and my X350 was without doubt the best all-round car I've owned. Comfortable, reliable, quiet, quick and not as expensive to run as some would have you believe.
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>>......woke bandwagon....
...is that going to be the new launch model name?
(I'm not sure what one is otherwise) ;-)
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>...is that going to be the new launch model name?
Job in Birmingham took longer than expected, now stuck in roadworks on A38 northbound. Will be with you after picking up more lace in Nottingham.
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Problems at Ford - Zero
