Non-motoring > Gaza Miscellaneous
Thread Author: bathtub tom Replies: 15
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New Sat 18 May 24 22:48 
 Gaza - bathtub tom
The Israeli defence forces are claiming to recover these bodies from Gaza, but are they bodies , or remains? I find it strange that bodies are still intact after six months in a Mediterranian climate, unless they were 'preserved' in some way.

Are Hamas so sick to hold bodies as hostage?

Gaza is reported to have lost 30,000, why don't they say ENOUGH to Hamas?
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New Sun 19 May 24 00:33 
 Gaza - James Loveless
"Are Hamas so sick to hold bodies as hostage?"

- Yes.

"Gaza is reported to have lost 30,000, why don't they say ENOUGH to Hamas?"

- Because it's difficult to disentangle Hamas from the general population. For Hamas to continue to exist, its members must be getting support - tacit or otherwise - from ordinary Palestinians. Same as in Afghanistan, where the Taliban were able to melt into the local population and re-emerge when the coast was clear. Prominent members can be identified easily, others not so easily.
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New Sun 19 May 24 00:47 
 Gaza - zippy
Gaza must be hell at the moment.

I understand what JL is saying. I understand Israel's point of view. Thousands of innocents are getting killed, though, not all of them can be collaborators with Hamas can they?

How you sieve the good from the bad - who knows.

On balance, I think Israel have gone too far.
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New Sun 19 May 24 08:36 
 Gaza - smokie
Absolutely they've gone too far. I guess the problem is that even people who don't want to help are coerced into it, too scared to refuse.
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New Sun 19 May 24 09:36 
 Gaza - Zero
Like the IRA, the Taliban, IS, Hamas is a small aggressive armed force, ruling by fear and intimidation.

All that Netenyahoo doing is creating more Hamas members, legitimising the "cause" and causing a much bigger future problem. Trouble is he cant get out of this without losing face. HE is only in power by gathering around him all the fundamental nut job religious minorities.
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New Sun 19 May 24 09:51 
 Gaza - Bromptonaut
The IRA and Hamas had/have a genuine grievance to exploit.
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New Sun 19 May 24 10:05 
 Gaza - Zero
>> The IRA and Hamas had/have a genuine grievance to exploit.

exploiting it by firebombing houses, or kneecapping if you dont harbour guns/gunmen, pay your dues to the "boys"?

There is no rights or wrongs to these situations, merely wrongs compounded by wrongs on both sides
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New Sun 19 May 24 11:17 
 Gaza - Bromptonaut
>> exploiting it by firebombing houses, or kneecapping if you dont harbour guns/gunmen, pay your dues
>> to the "boys"?

I agree but the treatment of Irish people in the North before and after partition was a running sore, more so after the B Specials had beaten people up for protesting their lot.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 19 May 24 at 11:17
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New Sun 19 May 24 11:39 
 Gaza - Zero

>> I agree but the treatment of Irish people in the North before and after partition
>> was a running sore, more so after the B Specials had beaten people up for
>> protesting their lot.

Of course, you need a valid grievance, which is usually excessive control, exploitation and violent suppression of a group of population. The Irony is your "saviour" ends up behaving in exactly the same way to the group its saving.

Nothing new in that, a trawl of history will provide a recurring theme.
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New Sun 19 May 24 11:24 
 Gaza - Terry
Zero is spot on in his comments.

The problem has been evident for 80 years with no sign of resolution. All parties are deficient:

- Hamas and other groups doing the wholly unacceptable and brutal
- Israel acting against UN resolution in occupying and settling the West Bank
- UN completely deficient (and wholly aware of Hamas tunnel strategy)
- US with the financial and political clout have largely ignored the problem for 30 years
- Only a few Arab states have made some slow towards normalising relations

Israel need help to find a solution. By creating a leadership vacuum in Gaza they are hoping it will be filled by the international community not more terrorists. The construction of an floating aid pier may just the start of that wider involvement.
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New Sun 19 May 24 12:53 
 Gaza - Robin O'Reliant
>>

>>
>> exploiting it by firebombing houses, or kneecapping if you dont harbour guns/gunmen, pay your dues
>> to the "boys"?
>>
>> There is no rights or wrongs to these situations, merely wrongs compounded by wrongs on
>> both sides
>>

The problem is that when you put a section of the population in a situation where they feel they have no option but to take up arms they don't have any control over who joins in. Alongside those who are fighting to right whatever wrong is being perpetrated you'll have the psychos, the gangsters and the political extremists all ready to exploit the situation.

Making sure all sections of your population are treated equally and fairly is the answer to a peaceful society. Both the British government and the Israelis had decades to find an acceptable solution but chose to ignore the problem.
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New Sun 19 May 24 11:53 
 Gaza - zippy
>> The IRA and Hamas had/have a genuine grievance to exploit.
>>

You don't resolve grievances by slaughtering innocents.
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New Sun 19 May 24 12:03 
 Gaza - sooty123
>> The IRA and Hamas had/have a genuine grievance to exploit.
>>

I think you mean Palestinian people rather than hamas. Hamas's grievance is that Israel is still there.
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New Sat 8 Jun 24 16:38 
 Gaza - James Loveless
Today's news of the rescue of four Israeli hostages from Gaza will support Israel's policy of continuing to mount attacks. In a way, though the rescue is to be welcomed, it is a pity that there will now be less incentive to prevent the slaughter of innocent civilians.

I still believe Israel's policy of attacking Gaza, with its excess of collateral damage, has shown it has lost the moral high ground, but it is undeniable that Hamas is using ordinary Gazans as human shields and is operating from hospitals, refugee camps and residential areas. It would be interesting to know where the "precise information" as to the hostages' whereabouts came from and one wonders if some Gazans are getting weary of Hamas's hold on them.
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New Sun 9 Jun 24 00:21 
 Gaza - Terry
The the response of Israel has been wholly disproportionate - but it has every right to defend itself from those who seek its destruction. Hamas continue to fight and launch rockets indiscriminately at Israeli civilian targets.

The goal of wiping out Hamas will not solve the problem - they will be replaced by other terrorist groups, their numbers swollen by many civilians who have suffered in the conflict. Netanyahu seems to have no solution for the day after the fighting stops.

Hamas have zero prospect of victory, yet continue to fight the unwinnable. It is a measure of their contempt for those they claim to protect that they have not sued for peace - as most defeated powers would to prevent further civilian casualties.

The last 8 months has been the product of failure to resolve a known problem which has erupted many times over 75 years. Despite increasing criticism, the international community has no solution - perhaps anticipating failure due to intransigence on both sides.

I don't think Israel have lost the moral high ground - the alternative would have been a partial proportionate response with a repeat performance likely in 5-15 years. Perhaps the horror of what has unfolded will stimulate the International Community to greater efforts in the future.
Last edited by: Terry on Sun 9 Jun 24 at 00:22
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New Sun 9 Jun 24 11:00 
 Gaza - Zero
It's a tale of two Half's. It reinforces and justifies the Israeli message that Hamas fighters are using refugee civilians as a shield and places to hide hostages, on the other hand it reinforces the message that the IDF don't care about b***** collateral damage. No winners all losers, but it's a fall out trap the IDF hit every time.
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