I’ve often bought cars not knowing which it was, and don’t think it’s ever bothered me. In recent times, about 9 years ago, I bought a short term Focus diesel from a pal in the trade, think it was 11 reg, but very high mileage and cost me £2k. Belt and water pump change cost me £350, but said pal did it in his garage workshop ( where he was senior tech) on a Saturday afternoon.
I only had the car 6 months, and didn’t lose any money on it.
Just curious but does belt/ chain make any difference in this era ?
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I've been around long enough to remember when they were 'modern'. My first experience was a Cortina MK3, which was fortunately non-interference, because it broke. I suppose there were accounts of timing chains breaking, but I don't recall any. An earlier Triumph wore grooves in the chain cover due to wear, but it was simple to replace, including a new tensioner.
I later had a Nissan that reputedly had a timing chain made of cheese due to the number that had problems. I don't recall any breakages, just timing issues due to the thing stretching.
I've currently a chain drive, but have no intention of buying anything with a 'belt-in-oil' due to the apparent problems.
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The original benefit of belt vs chain was much reduced noise and (I assume) cost - one long component vs hundreds that needed to be assembled with each a potential wear point.
No major manufacturer wants to sell cars with potentially faulty components - they not only cost money to fix when they fail, it damages the brand.
There may have been problems with belt in oil but apparently this has stimulated research into better belt tooth design and improved more resistant materials.
Main takeaway IMHO is don't be an early adopter of anything unless you like increased risk.
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Hope it doesn't become a problem in my car!! :-)
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Chains stretch, tensioners fail, belts break. Pay your money, take your choice, its all a potential PITA since they did away with cog driven cam shafts and push rods.
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>> Main takeaway IMHO is don't be an early adopter of anything unless you like increased
>> risk.
>>
Exactly that
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This is very topical for me!
Missus’ 2013 Beetle was down at the indies for some work and he has pointed out loads needing done Inc replacing the front subframe.
I also need 4 new tyres with the rears being the originals I’m sure.
I was sitting last night thinking it’s never had timing belt done either so better get that done. Some googling later and it appears that her car is a chain.
But not just any chain. It’s a super - duper improved chain because apparently the earlier 1.2 tsi came with a very problematic chain and so there was a modified version introduced around late 2012.
There is no suggested maintenance or replacement schedules for it so fingers crossed!
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On many VAG chain engines (like mine) there should be a 'visual inspection' of the plastic tensioner at 100K - and I guess replace where needed. Often one of the first signs a chain may have an issue is a change in sound at tick-over - could be a warning that the plastic tensioner is on the way out.
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PSA diesels mostly had belts which were changed at, IIRC, 48,000 miles on the XUD and the later HDi on my Xantia. The latter one failed, never got wholly to the bottom of it but I suspect the crank pulley failed - they split in two. The first Berlingo had a near miss where one of the idler wheels in the cambelt/water pump drive caused the belt to fray. Fortunately I twigged that what sounded like a nail in a tyre related to engine and not road speed and it was caught.
More recent ones are around 100-120k and I'm religiously observant of that in, most recently, the Berlingo.
My Fabia is something like 60k or 5 years. That on a petrol engine. Not got to 60k yet but well past on time. I think my nerve will fail before the belt does!!
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I believe that VAG have recently changed their recommendation for cam belts from something like 5 years or 60,000 miles (whichever comes first) to 140,000 miles and no age limit!
Surprisingly, this appears to apply to all of their engines (petrol and diesel) and assuming that you still have the OEM cam belt fitted, or have had a new VAG replacement done at some point, the new rules apply to your vehicle from late 2023. So there’s seemingly no change / improvement to the cam belt, idlers, pulleys, water pump etc. I’m led to believe that the situation in mainland Europe was different and that VAG UK put in place their own regime of more regular changes. Conveniently for fleets, the earlier approach meant that most cars would have been disposed of by the time a new cambelt was due, but any private owners who were loyal to VAG and their local dealer would have been relieved of >£500 every five years or so for a new cambelt and water pump.
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Makes me laugh when some car manufacturers suggest the cam chain will last the lifetime of the engine.
If the cam chain does fail, it usually means the engine's life is over, unless you're willing to throw loads of money into having it rebuilt.
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Mine has lasted over 21 years so far. Fingers crossed.
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I resurrected this thread because u-tube just offered me this astonishing video of a newish Rover ingenium engine needing yet another chain at fewer than a mere 60k miles! Not only amazing because of the need, but also because of the day's work of skilled labour and special tools required.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZU3FgsN_p80
HJ readers will know that I tested the Ford 1.6 Zetec designers claim that its belt should last the life of our old Focus (it did - 160,000 miles and 21yrs - I eschewed the cautious 100k/10yr change recommendation). It beggars belief that this 21st century JLR offering is so unsatisfactory. Even my old 1980 Triumph TR7 chain shows no audible sign of wear at well over 70k miles. I shall be observing how the improved belt in Mrs F's 2019 1.2 puretec engine fares over the next few years. (Readers here may know that this cracking little engine's reputation was ruined by its early crumbly DAYCO belts).
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It's all a sad story really. Once there were lots of non-interference engines, The earlier MX-5's were a case in point, and a failed belt did not result in a head rebuild. The fact that engine development has been so much about gaming the emissions rules and keeping up with Euro 3 4 5 6 etc has meant manufacturers have been forced to develop engines, and gearboxes in some cases, out of sync with the model cycle which creates adaptation costs in itself, makes engines and gearboxes far more complicated, puts pressure on cost and reliability, and means messing about with or replacing technology which in some cases had been all but perfected in the century since cars first appeared. The addition of turbos, direct injection, catalysts, dpfs, etc all created new failure modes.
Wet belts were the crowning glory. Garages don't even want to repair failed Ecoboosts because of the clean up job needed to fix them properly.
As for the Ingeniums - absolutely unbelievable. It's not uncommon for them to fail at 20,000 or 30,000 miles.
We've had one belt failure. More accurately a water pump failure which took out the belt and a couple of valves on a Sierra we had in about 2001.
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There is a garage that features in the reels that Mr Facebook send me. The Car Edition Ltd. All they seem to do is wet belts and Ingeniums.
I find it quite therapeutic and mesmerising watching them. Same as I am in awe of any skilled tradesman doing a job.
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Edit - just realised it’s the same garage.
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Car Mechanics magazine covered this in the summer. Basically too long service intervals and failed re-gens. If owners had stuck to annual/10,000 mile services all (almost) would be well.
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The FRV is heading for the scrappies but at 16yrs & 165k miles the 1.8 chain-cam VTEC still sounds and runs as sweet as a nut.
Running 0W20 oil since the start.
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>>1.8 chain-cam VTEC still sounds and runs as sweet as a nut
Hard to believe, but Honda used to claim they had never had a failure of those engines.
We had a 2002 Civic 1.6 auto for 12 years and literally nothing went wrong with any part of it in that time, not even a bulb that I can remember.
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I think the Honda claim was purely about the VTEC components of the engine, not the entire engine.
I got shot of my fsh 1.8 2012 Civic when it showed signs of the oil consumption issues that affected engines of that year. No doubt the VTEC itself was fine.
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>> The FRV is heading for the scrappies but at 16yrs & 165k miles the 1.8
>> chain-cam VTEC still sounds and runs as sweet as a nut.
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>> Running 0W20 oil since the start.
>>
>>
>
How come its going the scrappers if its a runner?
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Needs a bunch of welding underneath - both sills and some rear chassis rail stuff.
If anyone wants a fixer-upper in Central Scotland... :-)
Last edited by: Lygonos on Sat 18 Oct 25 at 18:53
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Cambelt vs chain - bathtub tom
