This may be unpalatable to many, but its starting to annoy me. Correction, the parents are starting to annoy me.
Quotes.
Appeal to "United Nations Committee on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities He has rights as a disabled person". He's not disabled he's dead.
"We now hope and pray that the ECHR will look favourably on the application. We will not give up on Archie until the end."
This is the end - He is dead.
Speaking outside the hospital, she said: "I am hoping that they will step in and give Archie a right to live. I think that he deserves that."
He can not have a right to live, he is dead.
"If this country can't treat him or they're not willing to treat him, where is the harm in allowing him to go to another country?" she said.
He is beyond treatment he is dead.
It seems to me its more about the notoriety and publicity the parents are getting (the parents who failed him when he was alive) than the treatment or rights of poor Archie.
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Aren't the parents being supported and financed by some religious organisation?
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>> Aren't the parents being supported and financed by some religious organisation?
I believe the Christian Legal Centre are involved. The same organisation was heavily criticised by the Courts in another withdrawal of treatment case - Alfie Evans.
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I think that many parents would go down every possible route before accepting the inevitable.
There are cases where doctors get it wrong: www.medscape.com/viewarticle/902143
If there is no hope, I do hope that, in the end, his parents get some solace and perhaps think about the good that can come from donating the lads organs to those that need them.
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>> If there is no hope, I do hope that, in the end, his parents get
>> some solace and perhaps think about the good that can come from donating the lads
>> organs to those that need them.
Beyond that now, he is in increasing multiple organ failure.
I understand grief, chasing futile attempts to delay the inevitable makes it worse, it might make it easier in my mind if they actually showed any.
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The original judgement makes interesting, if sad reading:
www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/Archie-Batteresbee-judgment-2-1.pdf
Unfortunately his parents also need to come to terms with the elephant in the room, which is that there is no TikTok challenge for children to hang themselves. I think they are aware of this and it may be one of the driving factors behind their refusal to accept his death.
My sympathy is tempered slightly by the fact that other children have potentially lost lives through their refusal to accept his death and allow his organs to be donated, although I suspect that their religious views may have prevented this anyway.
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>> Unfortunately his parents also need to come to terms with the elephant in the room,
>> which is that there is no TikTok challenge for children to hang themselves. I think
>> they are aware of this and it may be one of the driving factors behind
>> their refusal to accept his death.
Which reminds us this will be another drama at the inevitable inquest.
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I rather think that as is not uncommon in the cheese case they have the mother hasn’t got into a frame of mind where continuing legal action makes her feel she is actually doing something and thus avoiding the awful acceptance of the inevitable reality of the situation.
I guess that mostly in these situations there is someone close in her family who can talk compassionately to the parents and help, them face reality but that seems not to be the case in this instance.
Very sad for all concerned
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makes me cross too.
Reading that court judgement it seems to me that he has been dead since April. The chronology starting at para 53 says it all.
That's a lot of resource spent in 3+ months, not only in the NHS but also in the courts and elsewhere.
The judge says "I noted from the nursing notes found in the medical records that Archie’s mother preferred to search for answers on the internet or from people who had contacted her rather than accepting what the specialist doctors treating Archie and who have care of him on a daily basis
were saying". I'm virtually speechless at that.
I don't know the answer to this kind of case but it feels to me that the parents often have too many opportunities to stall it, for whatever reason, without seemingly much consideration for the poor patient or anyone else.
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Mother is understandably very distressed and desperately want to all she can. She clearly needs help and support, but I don't understand why the media insist on giving it so much attention.
Sadly the lad died months ago. No one can get pleasure through seeing her distress. It seems unlikely the public shares her belief that the NHS has somehow failed her - quite the reverse as spending money on the futile denies others the resources they may need.
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On several occasions I heard her call it a 'state sanctioned execution'... where on earth did that come from?
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>> On several occasions I heard her call it a 'state sanctioned execution'... where on earth
>> did that come from?
>>
>>
Whilst I broadly agree with most of the sentiments here, I also think we need to remember that she is a desperate person and must be experiencing an awful lot of grief and stress and as such is liable to say things that are extreme.
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Probably true but others have feelings too and she's probably hurt some of them.
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Seems family want him moved so treatment can be withdrawn peacefully but hospital say say it would cause a deteriation of his condition!
Don't get that!
If he's dead then how worse can you get than that?
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>>Seems family want him moved so treatment can be withdrawn peacefully but hospital say say it would cause a deteriation of his condition!
>>Don't get that!
>>If he's dead then how worse can you get than that?
I suspect the concern is he expires en route in the back of an ambulance.
Maybe not the best outcome for those left behind.
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"I suspect the concern is he expires en route in the back of an ambulance."
Yes, probably.
I don't understand why the parents are desperate to move the boy to a hospice. (Well, I kind of do, as the following makes clear.) They say they want him to "die with dignity", but, as with so many aspect of this case, the protests and demands of the parents say more about them (and those religious groups that have got involved) than about the boy.
As I understand it, he has been brain-dead for some time. It seems to me to be irrelevant where his body technically dies; he won't be able to understand or appreciate it.
I realise this sounds harsh, but as with many things associated with death, much of it is for the benefit of those left behind; funerals etc. are mostly about making the living feel more comfortable than anything else - feeling that "the right thing" has been done.
I have been asked what I want to happen after I die. My response is, "I don't care - I won't be there." But this is very unhelpful for friends and family who want to do "the right thing", so I shall at some point give some suggestions - but only for their sakes, not mine.
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>..so I shall at some point give some suggestions - but only for their sakes, not mine.
You haven't done the 'after-dinner funeral wishes' thing? Me and the missus play it a couple of times a year. Great fun!
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>> You haven't done the 'after-dinner funeral wishes' thing? Me and the missus play it a couple of times a year. Great fun!
Necrophilia?
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>Necrophilia?
Well my most recent wishes were "ashes in the dustbin while playing Chirpy-chirpy cheep cheep on a mobile phone" but if she wants a final fling before they put me in the oven I'm not going to complain.
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"so I shall at some point give some suggestions"
A wheelie bin as I've suggested to the wife. Don't want a grave or tombstone that ties my kids to be at a particular place at a particular time of the year. Don't want them to pay any more than for legal disposal. I don't care either.
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You can get a basic funeral for under £1000. No service, no mourners, just straight from mortuary to crem and it's all over. Myself and Mrs O'Reliant have both opted for that.
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>> You can get a basic funeral for under £1000. No service, no mourners, just straight
>> from mortuary to crem and it's all over. Myself and Mrs O'Reliant have both opted
>> for that.
you really think we were going to turn up for your funeral anyway?
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>>
>>
>> you really think we were going to turn up for your funeral anyway?
>>
I hope not, I do have some standards.
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>> You can get a basic funeral for under £1000. No service, no mourners, just straight from mortuary to crem and it's all over. Myself and Mrs O'Reliant have both opted for that.
If there are no witnesses did it really happen??
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>> You can get a basic funeral for under £1000. No service, no mourners, just straight from mortuary to crem and it's all over. Myself and Mrs O'Reliant have both opted for that.
If there are no witnesses did it really happen??
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>> I have been asked what I want to happen after I die. My response is,
>> "I don't care - I won't be there." But this is very unhelpful for friends
>> and family who want to do "the right thing", so I shall at some point
>> give some suggestions...
No point in leaving it really, you never know when your time will be up.
My lot know I'm pretty blase about the whole thing, and they know I want a specific blues track * (mentioned before here I believe) during my service, just cos it is so apt. Also much prefer cremation to burial, though first job after school was quite profitable and involved cutting the grass around tombs in the City of London cemetery.
But if they want to spend a chunk on a decent send-off it's their funeral not mine, as they say :-)
* www.youtube.com/watch?v=7m2IU5zuomw - Back to Earth, Canned Heat and Memphis Slim
Last edited by: smokie on Thu 4 Aug 22 at 15:51
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>> >> I have been asked what I want to happen after I die. My response
>> is,
I want a huge pyramid built in the back garden, myself mummified and placed within a coffin - intricately painted with my title, a list of offerings, a false compartment through which ka can pass through, and painted eyes so I can look through the coffin. My dogs will be dipped in acrylic and placed either side to guard the tomb.
Finally the neighbours will be thrown - alive - onto a huge funeral pyre, so their screams can guide my way to heaven
The co-op said no problem.
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"I want a huge pyramid built in the back garden"
The Duke of Buckingham has a similar idea at Blickling Hall though I dont think he immolated his neighbours. Took a tour inside a few years back.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blickling_Park_mausoleum#/media/File:The_Pyramid_Blickling.JPG,
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A well known local site to me - Lord Kilmory's Mausoleum.
257 St Margarets Road Twickenham
Almost opposite the Ailsa Tavern and near Richmond Lock
www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/going-inside-the-kilmorey-mausoleum-20240/
" back then, it was very overgrown, and one could just see the top of the tomb, amidst the sycamore trees, looming over the top of the wall."
We used to peep at it from the top of the local bus when it was just reaching our bus stop a few yards away.
Over the years I have visited several times.
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As I live next to a graveyard I should have no problem in approval for being buried in the back garden. Although using the pit in the garage would save the effort of digging.
The big question is what is the effect on valuation of the property to reduce Death Duties? How would HMRC consider it?
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Told my family to put me in a bin bag in the back of a transit and have me cremated with no funeral. Why I'm buying a bungalow - they won't have to carry my coffin down the stairs.
If they insist, then I want 'Sympathy for the Devil' by the Stones and 'Somewhere' by P J Proby.
They said the first was in bad taste and the second wouldn't leave a dry eye in the house. Both were refused!
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My dad used to say "put me down the chute when I'm gorn"
We lived on the 4th floor of a council estate and would put the rubbish down the chute.
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I've challenged my lot to give me the cheapest funeral they can. Money is for the living. We have a Berlingo van in the family. Cheap coffin off Amazon, collect me at funeral directors, book and pay crem and off we go. It's only round the corner from here, 5 retorts...no waiting!
Wheeled in to one of Richard Strauss's Four Last Songs...' Going to sleep ' Folk leave to Flanders & Swann's ' Last Train ' which has my local station in the first verse.
All ( except me, sadly ) off to local Beefeater for tea and buns.
Ted
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On a business trip to Indiana University our hosts had arranged for us to visit the medical research lab. One of their projects was working with the Visible Human Project where you could explore the inside of the human body using a pointer on a weird gimbal setup to move around.
The images had been taken by freezing a human body and then grinding it down from head to toe, taking a photo after every 1mm.
A much simpler view (Use the sliders or two fingers on a trackpad to move).
www.imaios.com/en/e-Anatomy/Whole-body/Visible-Human-Project
There had been a bit of a fuss made about the images because the body was that of an executed murderer who had donated his body to medical research but hadn't been told what might happen to it.
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Oh BTW.
A virtual pint for the first person to spot the anatomical anomaly.
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I cant even say it without my teeth falling out.
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This is what my neighbour did. He died in hospital, friend with estate car took coffin (bought online) to hospital where mortuary staff collected coffin, filled it, put it back in car. Paid doctor direct for cremation signature, paid crematorium fee. Staff collected him and friends/relatives attended celebration of his life.
Money saved was spent on an amazing lunch party at the village hall for his friends and relations, ex work colleagues etc.
Unfortunately his wife came to see me after we had arranged and signed contracts for my husbands funeral. He would have loved this… although we did a pretty good job. The difference was the neighbour was elderly so had time to plan and think about it, whereas my husband wasn’t.
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>> The difference was the neighbour was elderly so had time to plan and think about
>> it, whereas my husband wasn’t.
There is much to be said for planning this stuff while you can and ahead of any nasty surprises.
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I've visited this place a couple of times. The doors were vandalised and you could get in. It was much overgrown but now has been restored.
Would do for me but there isn't a suitable hilltop round here !
friendsofthemonteathmausoleum.org.uk/gallery.html
Ted
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Sadly I had to attend a funeral last Friday....the usual depressing church affair. Stumbling through hymns, readings, a poem and just generally unpleasant.
Yesterday , my usual Thursday walk with chums, we followed the Ribble Way...11 miles from Hellifield back to Settle ( sunny Talbot beer garden) passing close to Brocklands Woodland Burial site at Rathmell which affords glorious views up Ribblesdale.
Several years ago I decided thats where I want planting....my pals can walk there, mini buses back, lots of pies and sausage rolls from the local butcher, and hopefully someone can arrange for a few barrels of beer to be suitably conditioned on site beforehand. Way to go.
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>> Yesterday , my usual Thursday walk with chums, we followed the Ribble Way...11 miles from
>> Hellifield back to Settle ( sunny Talbot beer garden) passing close to Brocklands Woodland Burial
>> site at Rathmell which affords glorious views up Ribblesdale.
>> Several years ago I decided thats where I want planting....my pals can walk there, mini
>> buses back, lots of pies and sausage rolls from the local butcher, and hopefully someone
>> can arrange for a few barrels of beer to be suitably conditioned on site beforehand.
>> Way to go.
Possibly so, but when I have looked at these places in the past, they ain't cheap!
www.brocklands.co.uk/index.html
Can't find a price on there.
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>> Possibly so, but when I have looked at these places in the past, they ain't
>> cheap!
>>
>> www.brocklands.co.uk/index.html
>>
>> Can't find a price on there.
Here is yours Duncan
www.clandonwood.com/pricing/
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>> No. Here is mine.
>>
>> www.swmcrematorium.gov.uk/fees/
Midweek, to save money no doubt.
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...Thursday; and then on to Curry Night at Wetherspoons for the wake.....
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>> ...Thursday; and then on to Curry Night at Wetherspoons for the wake.....
The Moon on the Square Feltham, next to the pound shop.
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>> >> ...Thursday; and then on to Curry Night at Wetherspoons for the wake.....
>>
>> The Moon on the Square Feltham, next to the pound shop.
Some of you seem to have the idea that I have no class.
tinyurl.com/ykmwwbz4
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>> >> >> ...Thursday; and then on to Curry Night at Wetherspoons for the wake.....
>> >>
>> >> The Moon on the Square Feltham, next to the pound shop.
>>
>> Some of you seem to have the idea that I have no class.
>>
>> tinyurl.com/ykmwwbz4
Then you'd need to be dealt with here
www.dignityfunerals.co.uk/crematoria-and-cemeteries/crematoria/find-a-crematorium/randalls-park-crematorium/
Not sure my ole man would want you bringing the neighbourhood down tho.
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>>
>> Can't find a price on there.
>>
About Brocklands > Prices.
£1250.
Includes single plot (£480) burial fee (£590) biodegradable shroud (£180). Inc use of hat arm for booze up, tree or wood flower planting and future maintenance.
Don’t think putting me into an old rucsac would be acceptable?
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>> As I live next to a graveyard I should have no problem in approval for
>> being buried in the back garden.
When the Quango was being run down c2012 we were one of the few MoJ bodies that had a public phone number on our website. We also had a name suggesting we were involved in the administration of justice.
Consequently we got a regular set of inquiries which were nothing to do with us. However as we had little real work to do, computers etc on our desk and a 'help the public' ethos we did our best to 'signpost' people to somebody who could help them. Doing that, and a colleague's complement that I was good at it was one of the things that led me to CAB world.
The weirdest one fell to a colleague. One of the Lord Chancellor's more esoteric duties is (or was) the authorisation of exhumations. Our inquirer's Mother was buried in his back garden and he wanted to work out the practicalities of moving her when he downsized.
We were able to locate somebody at HQ who had this stuff as a peripheral responsibility.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 10 Aug 22 at 16:28
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I've buried pets in my back garden, but I had no idea that it was legal to bury a human there, even with special dispensation. Not that I want to - your inquirer evidently realised that there are hidden (buried, even) drawbacks. What on earth (in earth?) would you do if you bought a property unaware of a human burial in it? Would you be allowed to remove it? Would you have any legal come-back against the vendor?
The mind boggles.
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"What on earth (in earth?) would you do if you bought a property unaware of a human burial in it
Well if you were unaware it wouldn't be a problem unless you inadvertently dug it up
Assuming that the body had been properly buried and the grave marked and was not somewhere that I wanted to build on I don't think I'd be too fussed.
I used have an allotement that adjoined the site of an ancient churchyard. One of the allotment holders showed me an obviously human femur he kept in his shed. Dug it up when planting rhubarb apparently.
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Wed 10 Aug 22 at 17:37
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>> I used have an allotement that adjoined the site of an ancient churchyard. One of
>> the allotment holders showed me an obviously human femur he kept in his shed. Dug
>> it up when planting rhubarb apparently.
I hope he was digging his allotment at the weekend. That would make it a Saturday Night Femur.
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>> Well if you were unaware it wouldn't be a problem unless you inadvertently dug it
>> up
>>
...I find the best way of avoiding this issue is to build a patio on top..... ;-)
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>> I want a huge pyramid
Changed my mind. I wish to be placed in a boat, to be set fire and sailed down the Thames. If it sinks before Odin and Valhalla, I hope it makes Richmond half lock.
The Co-op said it would be a few quid extra.
(Yes the 1958 film "The Vikings" is on the tele)
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The Thames has dried up. It'll have to be Basingstoke Canal.
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I guess so. Its blocked at the Greywell Tunnel tho.
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Howls about a sky burial, you've eaten enough birds (feathered ones) in your lifetime after all.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sky_burial
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Now you’re talking. I’ve often talked about that being my ideal send off. On top of a local hill looking up Ribblesdale…we scattered a friends ashes from a whisky bottle in just such a spot a few years ago. I always have a short chat with him when I walk over that spot.
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I remember watching a program about a sky burial, all that was left was the skeleton. Quite interesting really :)
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>> On several occasions I heard her call it a 'state sanctioned execution'... where on earth
>> did that come from?
She has had advice from the sane source as the Alfie Evans case. Similar theories were advanced there to the point of attempted private prosecution.
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Yep, they are going to try and pin blame for his death on the medical teams at the inquest
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A little while back there was a video circulating of a similar UK case where ultimately the Police were involved in moving parents away from a child whilst basically the Drs made some final preparations. It had all been through the courts. Not a task to be relished by any means but it was apparent that every avenue had been explored. Of course the media and commentators turned it into an anti Police thing.
Very harrowing to watch as they tried to persuade.
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>>very harrowing…
I think it’s fair to say that there are no winners here.
A very sad situation for all involved.
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....I think this and similar events are to a large extent down to a life spent on and for social media.
People who frequent SM seem to want to post all the details of their life, trivial, non-trivial and harrowing.
Where there is something in the latter category, content gets shared and re-shared, and the world and his wife seem to think that they need to get involved and comment, much of the latter being rather less than helpful (largely, I think, by the nature of the people that get involved in such sharing).
You only have to read a few of the comments on the millions (almost literally) of share locations on this subject to understand how the subject has "got legs", and the original personnel get "influenced".
And, it is patently obvious that old-fashioned journalism is on its way out, with large numbers of stories in the red-tops and the plethora of local press simply being based on regurgitated social media postings.
(You may be able to tell I'm not a great fan of much of the impact of social media).
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>> (You may be able to tell I'm not a great fan of much of the
>> impact of social media).
>>
He says on social media;)
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...indeed, the irony hadn't escaped me - which is why I phrased my last sentence such.
(though I doubt much of the world knows about me falling off a bike simply because I posted on Car4Play ;-) )
Last edited by: tyrednemotional on Thu 4 Aug 22 at 12:10
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I doubt you'd only post it on the one place you know you wouldn't get any sympathy
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...doubt away, but you're wrong (on both counts ;-) )
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With you 100% on that Tyred.
The other issue is that opinions become fact (in some peoples tiny minds).
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I see it's being reported that Archie's mother says she will do mouth-to-mouth resuscitation if "palliative oxygen" is not provided.
Another sad sign that common sense has gone out the window.
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The irony is of course, had they accepted withdrawal of life support a month or two back, he could have gone to a hospice to die peacefully. Now they have dragged it on for so long and he has deteriorated badly, they, the parents, have denied him this possibility. Archies dignity in death has been destroyed by the mother and those advising her.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 5 Aug 22 at 13:18
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The move to a hospice likely has hee-haw to do with dignity in death: I suspect it's yet another roll of the dice by the family to put off the time of treatment cessation.
Much like each piece of legal work with zero prospect of changing the final outcome.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Fri 5 Aug 22 at 13:31
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I'm afraid any sympathy I had for the parents is rapidly evaporating. This is becoming embarrassing (And needlessly expensive).
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There is, apparently, much unrevealed about Hollie Dance, - the mother at the centre of this. It is suggested her real name is Lisa Pittaway, part of a notorious family and she has convictions for GBH and ABH.
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There seems to be quite a bit of internet gossip, including this if it is the same person -
www.gazette-news.co.uk/news/5434597.southend-road-rage-woman-spared-prison/
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He's finally been allowed to pass.
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Now the litigation starts.........against everyone involved, doctors, lawyers, nurses, tiktok, the press. And the fight starts to be the paper to publish mother's story !
cynical....moi ?
Ted
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I have refrained from commenting so far today, but it seems his body ceased to function around 12:15.
In the end I ran out of any lingering sympathy I might have had.
The overwhelming impression I now have, taking into account the latest statements by the mother and others, is that the whole circus for some months has been about her and not the boy. She says she is proud that she did everything she could for him, but is obviously unable or unwilling to recognise that she prolonged the awfulness of the situation and did him no favours - though (thank goodness) he wouldn't have been aware of that.
I assume she got some satisfaction out of being a PITA to those in authority. That would fit with what has emerged about her past.
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Look forward to her inevitable “true story” in the Daily Mail.
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Surprised the tabloids haven't picked up on the mother's previous history. It's a shame she has to deal with a death of a child, but I wonder how much her behaviour had an effect on the child's condition?
Last edited by: bathtub tom on Sat 6 Aug 22 at 22:49
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>> Surprised the tabloids haven't picked up on the mother's previous history. It's a shame she
>> has to deal with a death of a child, but I wonder how much her
>> behaviour had an effect on the child's condition?
Even the UK tabloids have some standards. One will do a favourable piece only for another to do a reveal once the lad has been decently buried.
Or she'll be offered the 'opportunity' for a sympathetic tell all.
The inquest will look closely at the events leading to how Archie acquired his injury including the role of any so called tictoc challenge.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 7 Aug 22 at 07:26
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>> The inquest will look closely at the events leading to how Archie acquired his injury
>> including the role of any so called tictoc challenge.
I can see how that is going to go now.
Any attempt to discuss possible suicide will be shouted down by the family in the press. Any attempt to steer the inquest away from "murdering archie in Hospital" ditto by the family, any verdict that doesn't pin the blame on someone or some body of people (other than the family) will be decried by the family.
Gawd knows what will happen if suicide is the verdict.
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... and so it begins...
"The family of Archie Battersbee have said nobody should go through what they had to and have called for an inquiry into the legal battle surrounding the withdrawal of his life support."
...
""No parent or family must go through this again.
"We have been forced to fight a relentless legal battle by the hospital trust while faced with an unimaginable tragedy.
"We were backed into a corner by the system, stripped of all our rights, and have had to fight for Archie's real 'best interests' and right to live with everything stacked against us.
"This has now happened too often to parents who do not want their critically-ill children to have life-support removed.
"There must be an investigation and inquiry through the proper channels on what has happened to Archie, and we will be calling for change.""
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-62455467
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>> Fuds gotta be fuds.
>>
What is/are fuds ?
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>> What is/are fuds ?
Scottish term of non-endearment.
Suspect the angry woman is using anger to hide something, either from her self or others.
Would be interested in her ex-partner's story more than her unreliable viewpoint.
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"We have been forced to fight a relentless legal battle..." No, she hasn't. She had a choice. But of course she wants to paint herself as the victim.
What this boils down to is that she thinks the parents (in this case, the mother) should have everything their way and the hospitals, legal system etc. should just do what the parents want.
Never mind the enormous expense of running the life-support systems, never mind the possible suffering inflicted on the patient.
She needs to learn that children are not the property of their parents and there are plenty of situations where the child's interests are not served by the parents, even when they think they know better (and I'm not sure what this woman's real motives are).
She may call for an investigation and and enquiry, but I doubt she'll get one. (The "proper channels" she refers to have already played their part and it has been a pretty thorough process.)
Last edited by: James Loveless on Sun 7 Aug 22 at 14:14
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>> legal system etc.
I doubt the courts were "box ticking2 and it would seem that some kudos needs to be given to the them, both in this country and the ECHR who clearly put in a lot of work to familiarise themselves with the case and bring about very speedy judgements.
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>> ... and so it begins...
Yup sadly so predictable.
You'd have thought really grieving parents would want to be left alone for a while.
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The child is not a chattel of their parents.
If the parents and the treating professionals disagree about what is appropriate then it has to be resolved by a higher authority.
As the expert commentary in that BBC report points out that authority is the High Court and its involvement inevitably becomes adversarial. Perhaps we could try a court process which is more inquisitorial or some form of conciliation or mediation.
Another case of brain dead offspring here although this was young adult:
www.theguardian.com/society/2022/aug/07/when-i-see-kids-vaping-i-warn-them-thats-what-killed-my-daughter
Young woman approaching 19 suffered double lung collapse, possibly due to her vaping habit. Pronounced brain dead a few days after. Parents followed medical advice, no apparent court involvement and allowed ventilation to be shut off.
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Had a brief chat re this case with Miss Z the other day and she said that she was involved with a case when she was at a huge south coast hospital / trauma centre and they do so many tests that it is very difficult to get the diagnosis of brain death wrong. As a policy the trust got a second opinion, not from anyone in the trust (no connected hospitals) but from a specialist at a nearby trust so a totally independent assessment can be made - and importantly not in the same chain of command so that there is no peer pressure.
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It almost makes you wonder if the mother had some involvement in the tragedy and is trying to divert attention away by criticising any and everyone else. I haven't read all of the 250 pages of internet content, but one thing I did pick up on, is her story has changed so many times there's no way you can believe her timeline of events.
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Unless there is evidence to show otherwise the unfortunate lad appears to have committed suicide. It does happen, we had one in Mrs O'Reliant's family two years ago, young girl with everything to seemingly live for.
The mother refuses to even consider that because it could reflect on his family life.
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>>This all went a bit....
Would never have wanted to deal with anything like that FC. Kudos to you for having to deal with this sort of thing throughout your career.
A very good friend (I'm godfather to one of their kids) joined up in their early 40s. First week my friend arrived single crewed to a domestic and found a young mother stabbed to death. I think it has changed my friend's outlook on life and they absolutely love the job (not the pay - took a sizable cut to be a police officer).
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Somehow Zippy I only ever dealt with a couple of suicides throughout my career so maybe I was fortunate.
The one I alluded to above went pear shaped due to how the mother perceived proceedings and I'll park it there.
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IK seemed to be the one who was sent to sudden deaths on the shift I was on. It meant I was taken off normal policing as I effectively became a Coroners officer. All suicides were awfully sad affairs, from the overdose in bed to the jumpers on the railway.
One lucky one I recall was when a local butcher rang to say he'd not seen his lady friend ( mistress ) for a while. She had the flat above the shop. I rushed round and was met by a colleague. We broke in and found her, lifeless in the kitchen, having gassed herself after a lover's tiff.
We did CPR on the pavement and brought her back, thank God. Suicides were sordid, grubby scenes to attend. My paramedic daughter handled one on the railway. The cop who attended got counselling and a day off. The ambulance crew got no such thing...it was off to the next job, a gassing death !
Ted
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Was your nickname 'Albatross' Ted? :)
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Sheesh Ted! I'm sure you and FC could each write a book re your experiences.
Glad you managed to save at least one.
Re the train suicides. It's outrageous to ruin a train driver's phycology at the same time. Though I guess they have other things on their mind.
Last edited by: zippy on Mon 8 Aug 22 at 00:15
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>> Re the train suicides.
Almost never reported due to the risk of copycats and almost 100% effectiveness. Same goes for people jumping off the Forth Road Bridge - on average one suicide per fortnight from the FRB - "success" rate well over 99%
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forth_Road_Bridge#Suicides
My understanding is the survivors landed very close to boats beneath them.
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>> Re the train suicides. It's outrageous to ruin a train driver's phycology at the same
>> time. Though I guess they have other things on their mind.
1 in 20 suicides are on railways - universally in the rail world they are known as "one unders" or "guzunders".
There is a myth that if you as a driver have 3 you are pensioned off, All Train Operating Companies have or have access to a care /support program for drivers who have a one under, with variable time off on full average pay.
In 26 years my ole man never had a guzunder, but he had a 10 year old boy who leaned too far over the platform and wiped himself down the side of a Britannia and 10 mk1s at 95mph. Never knew till he got to Norwich where he was informed by the Station Master, who then told him what time he was due back on the footplate for the return Fensman. They didnt even clean the coaching stock, but it was 1958.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 8 Aug 22 at 08:01
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I recall a young man who chained himself to the track and threw the padlock key into the bushes.
I saw a documentary where a driver described being off work after one under. He took months to recover and on his first week back, a man jumped out of the bushes near Milton Keynes and splattered himself across the windscreen of his class 87. Destroyed the driver...awful way of ending it all...selfish !
One of our local vets, a young, gifted guy with lots of promise, helped himself to a syringe full of whatever they use for euthanasia. Takes all sorts !
Ted
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>> I saw a documentary where a driver described being off work after one under. He
>> took months to recover and on his first week back, a man jumped out of
>> the bushes near Milton Keynes and splattered himself across the windscreen of his class 87.
>> Destroyed the driver...awful way of ending it all...selfish !
Between 1999 and 2004 I commuted via Milton Keynes rather than Northampton. Virgin Trains had dropped all the tedious pick up/set down only stuff at MK and went full tonto for a share of the season ticket revenue.
A few people got dropped off on the A5 immediately west of the station and used an engineers access down to track level immediately north of the then down fast platform. One of them lost his footing on the steps and was taken out by a northbound Class 87 + Mk3 rake.
A lot of the Thames Valley Police's finest standing around in the sunshine waiting for RAIB, coroner's officer etc to attend.
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...must be something about the Class 86/87 (though of course, they were the absolute mainstay of the WCML in those days).
When I worked for BR, I regularly travelled from Reading to Crewe for a day/night (or more, sleeping on the visiting programmer's room floor - happy days :-( ) at the computer centre.
I was there in the 70's on a day that a class 86/87 heading a passenger train pulled in to Crewe station with the remains of an unfortunate stuck on the front drawbar. Whilst I didn't witness the event myself, I did get caught up in the subsequent disruption, with BT Police all over, delays/cancellations, and the station being closed for some time. Working in railway premises, it didn't take long for the story to filter through.
Apparently, the driver was completely unaware, and was only alerted to any problem by the reaction of the people on the platform as the train pulled in.
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Trains in India have very flat fronts. Its a form of population control.
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It looks as though the inquest will take place in February 2023.
In preparation the Coroner has been going through the evidence and giving directions.
So far it seems there's no evidence that Archie looked at any Tik Tok challenge about blackouts etc:
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/nov/08/no-evidence-archie-battersbee-engaged-in-online-blackout-game-coroner-says
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Here's my five pounds - spit slap - that says his mother will kick off about that not being considered a primary or contributory factor
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 9 Nov 22 at 10:20
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I don't know whether I've linked to this before but it ran on for a long time.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-humber-17791654
I recall that locally there was a directive that no on should suggest that someone had taken their own life until such time as it was officially confirmed.
Last edited by: Fullchat on Wed 9 Nov 22 at 10:34
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>> I recall that locally there was a directive that no on should suggest that someone
>> had taken their own life until such time as it was officially confirmed.
That's presumably why the formulation 'no suspicious circumstances' is used.
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Archie Battersbee - Duncan
