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A new thread rather than buried in the the existing thread ( Batley and Spen by-election )
I agree with Zero
"Johnson is toast. He will probably survive the no confidence motion, but even when they do, they never survive much longer afterwards. Either by the party or the electorate."
So who will be the next PM? Will Boris cling on until Starmer takes over?
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 8 Jul 22 at 11:02
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I don't think it will be Truss or Gove, the public is already fed up with them. Watch out for Zahawi who has said it would be a privilege to be PM. The bookies I believe have Hunt as favourite but it's just as likely IMO to be someone without much profile currently, who could position as a unifier.
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I think Truss or Javid. The other name mentioned seemed to be Hunt, but I don't think he's enough support in the HoC or in the wider party.
I don't think it'll be Sunak, I think his domicile status and the fine will catch up with him.
Outsiders, possibly Wallace.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Mon 6 Jun 22 at 11:18
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>>I think Truss
Be honest, can anybody take her seriously? Her delusion that she is another Margaret Thatcher parallels Johnson's Churchill fantasy.
She can't distinguish the Black Sea from the Baltic and the cheese/pork markets speech will follow her forever. I honestly can't understand how she could have been appointed to one of the great offices of state, Johnson must have been running out of sycophants.
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>> >>I think Truss
>>
>> Be honest, can anybody take her seriously?
Yes they can, i believe she is popular with Conservative party members.
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Q1 2022 popularity table:
yougov.co.uk/ratings/politics/popularity/conservative-politicians/all
Johnson is depressingly popular with the public as of a couple of months ago. Truss sits slightly below Pritti Patel. These are not party members of course. I do hope they pick her.
Last edited by: Manatee on Mon 6 Jun 22 at 13:16
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Paddy power has odds out, Hunt and Tugendhat joint favourites at 4/1.
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Priority in new leader selection will be the capacity to energise public support and win the next election. The Tory party will support whoever can deliver - probably one who has limited or (preferably) no recent negative baggage.
Right now ministers are actively supporting Boris - if he survives this evening they are reliant upon his goodwill for their jobs. How they actually vote is another matter.
Voters have very short memories - Covid and Brexit will likely be mostly an irrelevancy in 2024. The key to the next election will be unemployment, inflation, cost of living issues.
Sir Keir provides little threat - he may be decent, intelligent, fair etc etc - but has the media presence and personality of a potato. There is no sense he is in control of events - events will emerge which he may or may not be able to exploit.
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I read or heard somewhere earlier that it is practically a given that 'payroll' ministers will support Johnson. There are 180 of those, so 170 backbenchers. Therefore he will win. But if more than 100 vote against him, that will mean a clear majority of backbenchers want him gone and he's pretty well doomed.
Not I think that he will accept that. He will claim a win by one vote as a ringing endorsement and stay on.
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...it's pretty much a given that they will "openly" support him, since not to do so is patently job-threatening in the event he survives.
It is considerably less a given that he will get their endorsement in a secret ballot, however. The ones at the top all have their own ambitions for advancement, and those down the pecking order, on the numbers involved, have both their own agenda and a 1 in 2 chance of picking up another "payroll" role under new management.
Frankly, the Conservative Party is so f'ed up at the moment, it's almost impossible to predict anyone's voting intentions (except perhaps Boris' and Mad Nad's).
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When Teresa May had her confidence vote, Lord Snooty Ress-Mogg said she should resign if a third of MPs voted against her. I wonder if he thinks that applies to BoJo?
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I doubt it, he knows he'll be one of the first chucked back to the backbenches when the PMs replacement is in.
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WTF is Tegundhat?
If I were forced to choose I'd go for Hunt as the least worst of a bad bunch.
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Boris wants to be PM. If he wins by just 1 vote he will claim it a ringing endorsement. Resignation means no longer being PM, and probably no way back.
People have short memories. They may remember, they may even profess to care, but their actions are driven mainly by events of the last few months and assessment of their personal circumstances in the future.
His strategy will be to ignore the outcome of a vote (unless goodbye Boris), and hope that events unfold in his favour - inflation, cost of living, Brexit issues, NI, unemployment.
If ejected from Office he will not become a bitter backbencher a la Theresa May, Edward Heath etc. He will simply re-invent himself a bit like Tony Blair - go on the lecture circuit, be a roving advisor for something, etc.
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He stays!
Oh god tomorrow is going to be unbearable, especially if JRM gets on air... all of the cabinet are looking after themselves and so far up his backside they can't afford him to go else they all go!
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>> He stays!
Only like a zombie. walking dead. His confidence vote % was lower than Theresa May!
Death by a thousand cuts
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As long as he has a majority of one, the lying arrogant git will continue screwing the country.
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I reckon the whole, rotten lot (on both sides) should be reminded of the ritual of putting severed heads on the spikes of London bridge.
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If you wanted proof of BoJos attitude
Quote
"In all, 211 Tory MPs voted they had confidence in the PM's leadership while 148 voted against him.
Mr Johnson described his confidence vote win as "decisive".
Striking an upbeat tone, he said it was a "very good", "convincing" result"
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Bottom line, let's just hope everyone can finally move on from all of this, draw a line under it and they can be left to get on running the Country.
Partygate was so last year, as well as everything else that did or didn't occur.
But no doubt, BBC & Sky news will continue to milk it, as well as the tabloid press.
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Sorry still don't get the 'let's move on and start running the country line' from MPs, are we saying that the media can stop the business of government?
If MPs being 'asked' about 'partygate' can stop the important business then heaven help us!
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>> Partygate was so last year, as well as everything else that did or didn't occur.
MPs are reporting that the issue comes up on the doorstep and when out an about in their constituencies over the Jubilee weekend. Particularly so with those who had family deaths and funerals during the pandemic.
Constitutionally there's the issue that Johnson repeatedly lied to the house when this stuff started to come to light late last year.
Getting on with it seems to mean stuff like proposing a return to Imperial Measures.
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All of what Brompy says is - to a greater or lesser extent - true.
However.
Why can't the Labour party find someone who will catch their, and the public's imagination? Keir Starmer seems perfectly able, but, he doesn't ring the bell, does he?
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>> Why can't the Labour party find someone who will catch their, and the public's imagination?
>> Keir Starmer seems perfectly able, but, he doesn't ring the bell, does he?
I rate him as a politician, unfortunately he's hamstrung by the corbynistas and Angela Rayner.
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>> I rate him as a politician, unfortunately he's hamstrung by the corbynistas and Angela Rayner.
But they did the same with Michael Foot - didn't they? Remember him? They simply couldn't see that he was a liability, not an asset.
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 8 Jun 22 at 10:41
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Oh don't forget our ability to buy more powerful vacuum cleaners! ..apparently one of the top ten suggestions picked by the JRM 'think-tank'.
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I'm a little surprised that they held the vote before the 2 by elections later this month. 2 more by election loses may well have got even more votes for no confidence in the PM.
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...AIUI, once the 54 threshold was reached, Boris had to be told as soon as practically possible, and from that point, he held the reins as to when the no confidence vote is called; hence, now, not after the by-elections.
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>> I'm a little surprised that they held the vote before the 2 by elections later
>> this month. 2 more by election loses may well have got even more votes for
>> no confidence in the PM.
Once Brady had his 54 letters a vote was inevitable. It was then bound to be quick as that offered the least opportunity for those opposed to the Horny Honey Monster to organise. Same tactic used when May was challenged.
If a sufficient number had withdrawn their letters only to re-instate them after the inevitable defeat at Wakefield and probable one at Honiton then the outcome could have been different.
Although the current rules say no further challenge for a year they are, in the words of one commentator, malleable. With the right pressure in the right places he could be challenged again.
When Thatcher was at this point the 'men in grey suits' came along and told her the game was up. Idoubt the current cabinet have the skills or the balls to do that but maybe the less headbanging element (Javid, Zawhari, Gove and Wallace?) might.
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Perhaps I should have worded it better, yes wait until after the by elections or put them in dated the 24th July. Or with a caveat 'in the event of by elections lose' etc.
They may well have had a stronger hand in pushing for an immediate vote for a new leader.
Most seem to think it matter of time in the short term anyway before he's pushed out of the door.
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>> Bottom line, let's just hope everyone can finally move on from all of this, draw
>> a line under it and they can be left to get on running the Country.
Hang on...this is just Conservative MPs voting. They can't acquit him. He's still done what he has done and he needs to go. He can't excuse himself for breaking the ministerial code by winning a vote of confidence from his own side.
It should go away when he goes away. "What's important is to get on with the job of government" is just bluster.
>>
>> Partygate was so last year, as well as everything else that did or didn't occur.
He's dragged it out until people are so bored they will let him off? I suppose that could apply to crime generally? "This murder trial has gone on far too long, it's more important now that I get on with my job"?
>> But no doubt, BBC & Sky news will continue to milk it, as well as
>> the tabloid press.
I hope they continue to report the facts.
These people are bent. Watch the unbelievably thick Nadine Dorries's interview with Beth Rigby on Sky in which Dorries blithely admits that their clients are the party donors.
news.sky.com/video/dorries-blames-remainers-for-vote-12628899
2:40 etc - "Conservative party donors have said that they won't support the party if Boris Johnson is replaced...MPs in marginal seats need to hear that and need to understand what they're doing"..."it's those donors that have helped us to win the election and they need to hear that"..."the donors have spoken" etc. This is not a slip of the tongue
Beth Rigby should have nailed her to the wall for this but was too busy looking up the next question in her notes.
Johnson wanted to wait for the Met's investigations. He was fined for breaking the law. He wanted to wait for the Gray report - he was roundly blamed for a culture of law breaking. Yet he is still there.
I fear it will be the same when the men in grey suits tell him he has to go. The framework of ethics that we thought was always there has just gone. They have no honour, any more than the senior Republicans still siding with Trump over supposed election fraud.
Last edited by: Manatee on Tue 7 Jun 22 at 10:38
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Great post, 100% Manatee. And I'm basically a Tory.
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I was just thinking it was a bit ranty:)
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>> I was just thinking it was a bit ranty:)
Weeelll. It's not so much that it's a bit ranty. From my point of view you only have one song, and you never sing a different tune.
You are never go to support a Tory government, so why don't you number all your responses and then you can just type - number 3, or number 5, or whatever?
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>> You are never go to support a Tory government, so why don't you number all
>> your responses and then you can just type - number 3, or number 5, or
>> whatever?
Hmm. You never know. Nobody is all bad and they did announce a windfall tax. Sorry, a special tax on windfall profits. Although it was Labour who made them do it.
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 8 Jun 22 at 10:42
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>> >> But no doubt, BBC & Sky news will continue to milk it, as well as the tabloid press.
>> I hope they continue to report the facts.
First time for everything I suppose. From what I can see, they're all very biased, and Boris haters.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 7 Jun 22 at 13:03
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The press and news merely reflect what their target audience wants to hear. Currently very few people approve of Bojos actions and attitudes, so the press pander to it
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The Privileges Committee is due to report on whether Boris broke the Ministerial Code - expected in the autumn. Why it should take so long is beyond me - the facts seem clear and a judgement needs to be made. Boris will claim that he is innocent until judged guilty.
We can all form a conclusion based on facts we have. Personally I am unconcerned by Partygate although I understand why many are. But to claim he was unaware of what was going on in N0. 10 seems implausible.
Boris will not go until seriously pushed. By-elections are mid-term, loss unsurprising. Ministerial Code - Boris is the arbiter off the consequences if found to have abused it.
His behaviour (arrogant, erratic, thoughtless, etc) was known when he was elected PM and should come as no surprise. He believes he has done all that was necessary - apologised, acted contrite, accepted responsibility, etc. He has not resigned and clearly doesn't believe it necessary.
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"Personally I am unconcerned by Partygate although I understand why many are. But to claim he was unaware of what was going on in N0. 10 seems implausible."
But isn't that the problem? I was somewhat angry at Partygate but it's the lying, trying to change or ignore the rules and protocols of Parliament and general disdain for the electorate that I find unpalatable in a Prime Minister.
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>> The press and news merely reflect what their target audience wants to hear. Currently very
>> few people approve of Bojos actions and attitudes, so the press pander to it
The press reflect the views that their owners want them to reflect.
The Telegraph is so anti Boris, it's ridiculous. I don't believe for a second that the typical Telegraph reader is as anti Boris as the Telegraph paper is itself. Just have a look at the large, very crudely drawn cartoon that appears every day on page 6, or 8, is it? That cartoon is absolutely vitriolically anti Boris. I think they have lost sight of who their target readership is.
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>>I think they have lost sight of who their target readership is.
The Boris fanclub?
No doubt populated by Farage's goons who returned to the Tory fold.
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>> page 6, or 8, is it? That cartoon is absolutely vitriolically anti Boris. I think
>> they have lost sight of who their target readership is.
>
They print, or report, what sells. Its a Right wing free market economy principal. You should be proud of them. After all you seems to subscribe to that particular outlet.
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>> They print, or report, what sells. Its a Right wing free market economy principal. You
>> should be proud of them. After all you seems to subscribe to that particular outlet.
>>
I think I/we have done this before, but just for the record.
Lady Duncan wants the Telegraph, not me. Unless I wish to die of malnutrition, we - that is to say, this household will continue to take the Telegraph. If it were up to me I would cancel the Telegraph tomorrow.
Pedant mode.
I think you mean principle, not principal.
Principle vs. Principal
A principle is a rule, a law, a guideline, or a fact.
A principal is the headmaster of a school or a person who’s in charge of certain things in a company.
Words with shared roots often end up with similar meanings in modern use. Principle and principal are two such words. Both of them entered English through Old French. Both have Latin roots—principium, which means “source” is the root of principle, and principalis, Latin for “first,” is the root of principal. If we were to dig a little bit deeper, we would see that the Latin roots can be traced to the same word—princeps, princip, which means “first”, or “chief.” Principle and principal are also pronounced the same way (PRIN-suh-pul), but that only adds to the confusion because the two words have different meanings.
Last edited by: Duncan on Wed 8 Jun 22 at 07:37
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Why read it if you don't like it's viewpoint?
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>> Why read it if you don't like it's viewpoint?
>>
May I refer you to a paragraph in my earlier post?
Quote.
"Lady Duncan wants the Telegraph, not me. Unless I wish to die of malnutrition, we - that is to say, this household will continue to take the Telegraph. If it were up to me I would cancel the Telegraph tomorrow."
End quote.
The Telegraph comes through the letterbox every morining. It's already paid for by subscription, so I read parts of it.
For me the Telegraph is a curate's egg.
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>> Pedant mode.
Do you feel better now?.
Should put you in a better frame of mind for when Mrs D ties you to the chair, props your eyelids open with matchsticks and forces you read the newspaper you dislike so much.
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>> First time for everything I suppose. From what I can see, they're all very biased,
>> and Boris haters.
You can't expect an uncritical presentation of someone who constantly behaves badly;)
There was a period when 'balance' would have required finding somebody to stick up for Hitler in a programme about the Holocaust. Thankfully that time has come and gone.
I can assure you that they constantly say the opposite to you on Labour party forums where they nearly all think the BBC is the mouthpiece of the Conservatives, especially for some reason Laura Kuenssberg. I don't agree with them either.
FWIW I don't think the BBC does a bad job. I'll allow that they aren't quite as "unbiased" where Johnson is as the Daily Mail, although even they have been a bit critical recently.
Sky News really let Dorries off the hook on the Tory donor comments, although I think that was incompetence rather than bias.
Something I have seen very little comment on is the extent to which the Conservatives benefitted in a very unbalanced way from doing scores of party political broadcasts under the guise of Covid updates. I don't think they have much to complain about.
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 8 Jun 22 at 10:42
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>..Dorries blithely admits that their clients are the party donors.
Oh FFS, if this is shocking news we're all doomed. All the parties rely on donors. You think that Labour would last long without union cash? Does that make them "bent" as well or is it only 'everyone-except-Labour'?
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I'm also a bit pee'd off at being told by him it's time to move on.
Time for him to move on maybe...
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>> Oh FFS, if this is shocking news we're all doomed. All the parties rely on
>> donors. You think that Labour would last long without union cash? Does that make them
>> "bent" as well or is it only 'everyone-except-Labour'?
It's the suggestion that donations are Boris dependant that irks though the number of big donors rewarded with party office and seats in the Lords is a worry.
Labour is the political wing of the trade union movement so their money isn't that much of a shock horror thing even if it comes with some conditionality around policy as long as it's in the open.
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>>It's the suggestion that donations are Boris-dependent that irks
It's the implication that the donors want to choose the leader and by extension influence policy that irks me, or more precisely that Dorries seems think that's OK.
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> It's the implication that the donors want to choose the leader and by extension influence
>> policy that irks me, or more precisely that Dorries seems think that's OK.
>>
I'm not sure how it's different from any other party tbh.
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>
>> It's the suggestion that donations are Boris dependant that irks though the number of big
>> donors rewarded with party office and seats in the Lords is a worry.
>>
>> Labour is the political wing of the trade union movement so their money isn't that
>> much of a shock horror thing even if it comes with some conditionality around policy
>> as long as it's in the open.
>>
I struggle to make sense of these two paragraphs.
I'm not sure where to start.
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>> I struggle to make sense of these two paragraphs.
>>
>> I'm not sure where to start.
I think I can see the difference between union funding Labour, and those from Russian oligarchs to the Conservatives.
The ennoblement of Lord Lebedev of Hampton and Siberia, purveyor of holidays in Italy to Boris Johnson, raised a few eyebrows too including with the security services who had his dad pegged as a Russian agent.
In fairness Tony Blair got into a bit of bother over loans and peerages about 15 years ago. I believe Labour had to repay the money which I believe came mostly from British business. I'm sure the Conservatives will be returning their Russian contributions, or donating them to charity, soon.
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I think I can see the difference between union funding Labour, and those from Russian
>> oligarchs to the Conservatives.
>>
>>
One sends rubles, the other sends pounds.
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>> One sends rubles, the other sends pounds.
Indeed, its created plenty of ruble in Ukraine.
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>> One sends rubles, the other sends pounds.
The pounds are part of a relationship that's been open and visible for over one hundred years.
The roubles are not.
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>> The roubles are not.
>>
Of course the oligarchs shouldn't be donating to uk parties. But that's off topic, the original point that donations* = influence over party/leader is somehow an act that shouldn't ever occur. As you say its being going on for hundred years plus.
Personally i don't see any difference, union or wealthy businessman.
*excluding illegal etc etc.
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 8 Jun 22 at 10:41
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>> Personally i don't see any difference, union or wealthy businessman.
Its a global issue. Except in N Korea I guess.
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>Personally i don't see any difference, union or wealthy businessman.
The difference is that when it's mentioned by a Tory it's an admission. When it's Labour it's being 'open and visible'.
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>>
>> Personally i don't see any difference, union or wealthy businessman.
>>
I would suggest that a wealthy business man contributes for the benefit of himself - for favour, kudos (honours etc.), riches etc.
A union is there for the benefit of its members - workers. It contributes so it can influence the Govt on legislation to improve the workers lot.
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>> A union is there for the benefit of its members - workers. It contributes so
>> it can influence the Govt on legislation to improve the workers lot.
>>
Is anyone here old enough to remember when that was the case?
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>The roubles are not.
I thought all donations had to be recorded and publicly available. You must know something I don't.
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"Beth Rigby"
I've got the hots for her with that contralto voice she has. She reminds me of Miss Jones in Rising Damp. Perhaps it's her surname that triggered it.
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"Speaking to backbenchers in the 1922 Committee, Johnson reportedly defended his appearance at leaving dos that led some Downing Street staff to receive fines for breaking lockdown rules saying he would "do it again"."
Yet more contempt. So much for being humble.
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I was a lifelong Conservative voter. I’d describe my politics as “soft right” probably, which is where I felt the party mainly was until, well, let’s not go there again eh…
I’ve never really seen them as anything much more than the best of a bad bunch all my life mind you, but in all conscience, I simply couldn’t vote in any upcoming election for this shower of ne’er do wells.
It would be as disingenuous as continuing to support a football team where it turns out that the manager is a corrupt liar and the current crop of players are totally rubbish just because I’d “always” supported them.
I want Boris and his dozy, self serving bunch of cohorts gone.
Then I’ll move on.
Last edited by: Runfer D'Hills on Tue 7 Jun 22 at 17:03
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>> I was a lifelong Conservative voter. I’d describe my politics as “soft right” probably, which
>> is where I felt the party mainly was until, well, let’s not go there again
>> eh…
>> I’ve never really seen them as anything much more than the best of a bad
>> bunch all my life mind you, but in all conscience, I simply couldn’t vote in
>> any upcoming election for this shower of ne’er do wells.
>> It would be as disingenuous as continuing to support a football team where it turns
>> out that the manager is a corrupt liar and the current crop of players are
>> totally rubbish just because I’d “always” supported them.
>> I want Boris and his dozy, self serving bunch of cohorts gone.
>> Then I’ll move on.
>>
Pretty much the same here -I've mostly been conservative with a small c. This lot have gone toon far. To party when one shouldn't is one thing, but to then lie about it is too much for me. And then to say he would do the same again?!?! I can't vote for them again. And then there's the C4 privatisation joke, the return to imperial measures(?), oh and Brexit...
Similarly, I had supported Chelsea since the 1970s but couldn't when Abramovitch bought them, knowing it was just part of Putin's big scheme to launder ill-gotten gains from the Russian people.
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Well he'd hardly say otherwise would he, that'd be killing one of his golden geese...!
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Absolutely, just a bit of fun that's all :)
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>>
>> Seems someone is happy he won the confidence vote.
>>
...well, it's probably better than him being able to be effusive about the new PM, Liz Truss, authorising the delivery of tactical nukes.....
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>> Was the survey held back because it was faulty, or because it was too favourable?
>>
>> www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/poll-labour-yougov-2017-election-b2096555.html
YouGov was jointly founded by Nadhim Zahawi. Some conspiracy-minded Labour types question the integrity of 'unfavourable' YouGov polls, decrying it as a 'Tory' polling organisation.
I don't subscribe to this myself, the whole proposition of a polling organisation is accurate insight so it would be very bad business.
Suppressing or delaying the release of a poll might be more easily rationalised since it doesn't involve actually lying, but I'm not convinced. On the other hand I have withheld data myself when I didn't fully trust it - as might be the case when the results are unexpected. But the right thing to do when you've checked it is to release it with whatever qualification or comment is appropriate.
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My opinion?
The headline could just as well have been:
"Attention-seeking, Disgruntled Labour Supporter Throws his Career under Bus"
As always with today's media - It's not what they tell you, it's what they don't. In this case it's the 'ex-Manager' who just happens to be a member of SME4Labour and has co-authored articles promoting Labour.
And you don't need to read between the lines to see that YouGov thought his "Poll" was biased tripe.
Who's going to trust Opinium 'research' now that he's had his two seconds of fame?
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>> Was the survey held back because it was faulty, or because it was too favourable?
>>
>> www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/poll-labour-yougov-2017-election-b2096555.html
Chris Curtis has now retracted the allegation and apologised:
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/yougov-polling-blog/2022/jun/10/ex-worker-retracts-claim-yougov-suppressed-positive-jeremy-corbyn-poll
Several observers have pointed out that his statement has the fingerprints of the legal profession all over it.
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It has been suggested elsewhere that, whereas most of the oompa loompas who got multiple penalties, when interviewed, answered truthfully as to the parties they had attended and incriminated themselves, BJ will have taken advice and 'no commented' on all except the token offence where he was probably bang to rights.
However I agree the form of words he used in parliament was probably paraphrased from counsel's advice on the law.
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Possibly the most significant sentence in the statement.
" I briefly attended such gatherings to thank them for their service—which I believe is one of the essential duties of leadership, and is particularly important when people need to feel that their contributions have been appreciated—and to keep morale as high as possible."
I consider that to be not unreasonable.
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I tend not to believe what liars say about their wrongdoings.
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>> Possibly the most significant sentence in the statement.
>>
>> "
>>
>> I consider that to be not unreasonable.
How about
I briefly attended such gatherings to thank them for their service—which I believe is
>> one of the essential duties of leadership, and is particularly important when people need to
>> feel that their contributions have been appreciated—and to keep morale as high as possible, but reminded them we, in government, need to set an example about the draconian measures we have had to enforce on the people we represent, so asked them to please disperse with my thanks.
Me I would have said
Guys, I knows times are rubbish right now, and you have all been working your socks off for which I thank you. But seriously, can you imagine how much crap we would be in if this got out, so off you go to your homes, and we will all have a good party when things get back to normal
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 10 Jun 22 at 17:04
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>> Me I would have said
>>
>> Guys, I knows times are rubbish right now, and you have all been working your
>> socks off for which I thank you. But seriously, can you imagine how much crap
>> we would be in if this got out, so off you go to your homes,
>> and we will all have a good party when things get back to normal
>>
Which is exactly what my team at work did (with 2 x Christmas dinner pots added together).
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>>I consider that to be not unreasonable.
That's why his solicitor told him to say it verbatim.
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Twitter is enjoying this one. The Irish Teasock. At about 30 seconds in
www.indy100.com/politics/liz-truss-irish-word-tea-sock
Tbh I have no idea how it's pronounced and may have made hte same mistake, but then again I'm not Foreign Secretary...
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Plagiarised from elsewhere:
Johnson was in hospital this morning for surgery om his nose.
Rumour is they took about two feet off...
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This is the article that was published in Saturdays Times, It later was taken out of later (and online) editions. makes for interesting reading.
Another nail?
tinyurl.com/mtmt895k
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Nope. Boris has the comfort of the Mail and Times owners in his pocket, or vice versa.
Dacre being made a Lord in return for his services to Boris.
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Might be some frank conversations with the PM after last night. Two more very bad results.
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This is to be expected mid-term.
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Indeed but I suspect the 'red wall' areas and many more are coming round to the idea that voting for a 'personality' that fails to deliver on the guff he spouts to obtain your vote is not such a jolly jape that it first seemed.
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Looks like the Con party chairman has resigned.
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>>This is to be expected mid-term.
...you are Jacob Rees-Mogg in disguise, and I claim my £5... (now worth about 5p)
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>> This is to be expected mid-term.
Its possible, but not always a given, - its a matter of scale. This scale was BIG.
No-one can deny that the average general public now find Bojo unsuitable. The Tories won because of him, they will lose because of him. Hes a liability.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 24 Jun 22 at 09:09
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I suspect very much his time is up. Not a question of if but when.
If it were done when ’tis done, then ’twere well
It were done quickly
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He'll extend his middle finger and remind them off the recent confidence vote.
When he is replaced it needs to be someone outwith his cabal of useless yes men/women.
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This was a mid term by-election. It would be complacent to disregard the outcome, but it is more another nail in the coffin, than the funeral service.
Aside from old issues ( Partygate etc) there are some real problems on the immediate horizon - cost of living, inflation, Ukraine, Covid public enquiries, ethics advisor.
There is no doubt his time is probably up. Tory MPs need to decide whether he should limp on and carry any blame going for the problems above, or replaced and risk his successor being tainted.
The next election is likely in December 2024 - 30 months away. If they are going to remove him they certainly have another year to make up their minds, and put his successor in position.
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So we now have the stories of him wanting a £100k a year job for Carrie.
In return she was caught relieving him in his office.
MP walked in and caught them.
Wonder where that MP is now??? And what the price of his/her silence was?
And then the latest rumours involve a Canadian hairdresser.
But still his band of followers think he is great for the job.
Jeez.
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>> But still his band of followers think he is great for the job.
The alternative is?...................................................................
.........................
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>> >> But still his band of followers think he is great for the job.
>>
>> The alternative is?...................................................................
>> .........................
Getting rid of the entire lot. The whole tory party are currently either corrupt or perverts, certainly proven liars and certainly inept.
They are suffering from the 'too long in power" problem, that all parties get. They have a sense of permanence and privilege .
We need a change and frankly I dont care who.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 1 Jul 22 at 23:15
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That's pretty much where the Conservatives go to under John Major - with all that sleaze and as we found out later, even John Major had been a naughty boy with Edwina Curry (shivers)!
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It's often said "if you're in a hole, stop digging" not a proposition Boris seems familiar with.
Realistically the alternative is Labour, who may need a deal with LibDems or SNP. This would simply expose left/centre rifts that still exist.
Not all Tories should be tarred with the Boris amorality brush - if he goes the priority will be a safe pair of hands.
Both Tories and Labour will then be lead by the equally uninspiring. Politics will revert to the tedious, predictable and offend no one. Aspiration and ambition will be buzz words unencumbered by the reality of delivery.
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Boring is generally what's needed with politicians.
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...not for those that have grown up in the era of "reality TV"....
(Boris for "Love Island", anyone?)
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>> Not all Tories should be tarred with the Boris amorality brush - if he goes
>> the priority will be a safe pair of hands.
The electorate for the next leader are the Tory party rank and file. They are reported to favour LIZ Truss....
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One of the issues of the BJ attitude is that there have been so many instances of behaviour, lying etc that would have been resignation matter for previous PMs or even MPs in general.
But he has taken things to a gutter standard whereby he can lie constantly in Parliament and nothing is done.
This then sets the standards for the next leader.
Well BJ didn’t resign for his shagging, lying, bribing, corruption so why should I just because I have ( insert whichever misdemeanour comes to mind that is more serious than the above)
Standards have fallen dramatically thanks to him and his willing colleagues.
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I really hope they put Truss in.
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..can she count on your support?...
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Absolutely, she is a brilliant choice.
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Liz Truss as Justice Secretary was explicitly responsible for ensuring the independence of the judiciary from politics - a fundamental part of any democratic system.
In 2017 she completely failed to defend the judges in the Gina Miller challenge on Article 50 in the "battle for Brexit".
She later climbed down. I do not think democracy is safe in her hands - I can only assume her motives were political - as such she fails to clear the bar to win my support.
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We all make mistakes along the way - and hopefully learn through experience.
During my 14 years in mobile car engine tuning, I caught 3 vehicles alight (under bonnet)
As the years passed, and I gained from previous cock-ups, I caught fewer vehicles alight :o)
I even lost the top of a Biro in the combustion chamber of a mrk 3 Cortina once.
Boy did it make some din when I eventually started the engine!
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>> Liz Truss as Justice Secretary...
>>I do not think democracy is safe in her hands -
>> I can only assume her motives were political - as such she fails to clear
>> the bar to win my support.
It would be a mystery as to how she could possibly become Foreign Secretary, until you consider that a fundamentally dishonest malignant narcissist is PM and duds such as Dorries, Patel, Jenrick, Raab, Grayling, Williamson, Mogg et al have all been appointed to the cabinet.
I think it's entirely possible that Johnson, if he were to play a percentage game and stick to motherhoods for a while, could yet rehabilitate himself sufficiently to win another election but I'm hoping he's too arrogant to do that.
I have no confidence that Labour can deliver a killer blow without some assistance and if this stinking government is to be got rid of then Truss is quite possibly the person to do it. I can't believe the party would be electable with her as leader. She's certainly no Margaret Thatcher and has far less on-screen charisma than Keir Starmer which is quite an achievement.
I wish her the very best for her leadership campaign.
Last edited by: Manatee on Sun 3 Jul 22 at 11:12
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> I wish her the very best for her leadership campaign.
>>
You know what they say , you should be careful what you wish for.
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>> ..can she count on your support?...
At least one person appreciates your pun.
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So the line that we knew nuffink about Pincher's pinching has been blown out of the water...
www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jul/05/no-10-not-telling-truth-over-chris-pincher-says-former-top-civil-servant
Interviews with (a) Raab and (b) Lord McDonald on Today were fascinating.
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Its this constant endemic persistent "who cares what they have done, lets just a:ignore it, b: deny it c: defend them*" direction from the top that is annoying, and frankly offensive. This is just another example of numerous cases.
*c: is fatal, you know "throw them under the bus" quickly follows.
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The further get out attempt here will presumably turn on the word "specific" as in the PM "was not aware of any specific allegations" about Pincher.
The fact that Therese Coffey inserted that word was to me a give away that Johnson knew very well what Pincher was like and almost certainly knew that there had been some allegations and the general nature of them.
Just more of a very well established pattern of behaviour.
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>> So the line that we knew nuffink about Pincher's pinching has been blown out of
>> the water...
The line has been revised. He knew but forgot apparently.
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...should have pinched himself as a reminder...
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Javid has just resigned. A new PM may be closer.
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And Sunak too.
"Infamy, infamy, they've got it infamy"
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Seems not only was the PM aware, pincher was investigated whilst the PM was foreign secretary.
I would think the PM would be gone tonight or first thing in the morning.
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After all the bluster that people are fed up with hearing about sleaze, parties and lies, and what matters is getting on with Covid/making Brexit work/levelling up/running the country, Javid and Sunak resign. Is running the country not important now, or don't they care?
And now he'll make £5million a year with the clown act on speaking engagements.
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>>And now he'll make £5million a year with the clown act on speaking engagements.
And the rest.
Rather now though, than after another year of his crap.
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Truss and Patel, who occupy 2/3 of the so-called great offices of state, have said they're staying so he might try and brazen it out.
The division will presumably go on for as long as he succeeds with that, so I imagine quite a few Tories will be thinking "If it were done when 'tis done, then 'twere well it were done quickly".
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>> Truss and Patel, who occupy 2/3 of the so-called great offices of state, have said
>> they're staying
only while they get their leadership bids in place
or
Both realise they are toast if - sorry - when Bunter is forced out.
>> so he might try and brazen it out.
He will.
>> The division will presumably go on for as long as he succeeds with that,
Not in problem in the mind of Bunter
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Raab staying quiet is he?
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>> Raab staying quiet is he?
And by doing so proving himself unfitted for the office he holds.
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>>And by doing so proving himself unfitted for the office he holds.
Och, they all are.
But Raab has been made to look an a**e on TV this am - I suspect his ego/rage will be pretty close to giving Boris a kicking.
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The Guardian's take on positions of those declared for Blo Jo or still silent:
www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jul/05/leave-or-remain-the-ministers-quitting-the-cabinet-and-those-staying
Of the undeclared only Zahawi has any heft.
I find watching Dr Coffey's performances in front of her Select Committee so toe curling as to be near unwatchable. Last weeks performance over the cost of living and the Benefit Cap showed a lack of grasp that ought to have been picked up. Perhaps Stephen Timms was too polite..
A commentator on another forum noted her facial/physical likeness to Grandma in the Giles cartoons...
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>> Truss and Patel, who occupy 2/3 of the so-called great offices of state, have said
>> they're staying so he might try and brazen it out.
I think there are 4 Great Offices below the PM
Chancellor of the Exchequer;
Foreign Sec;
Home Sec; and
Lord Chancellor
The latter is, at least arguably, second only to the PM. Unfortunately that's never been clear and Labour's Constitutional Reforms, following a back of a fag packet get rid of Derry Irvine plot, did nothing to clarify the situation.
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Probably depends who you ask. Yours must be the Lord Chancellor's version:)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Offices_of_State
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...I always thought it was Rupert Murdoch, Viscount Rothermere and the Barclay Brother(s).
Not necessarily in that order.
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Or through another lens:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministerial_ranking
While the Lord Chancellor was in the Lords and peripherally political the order Manatee uses was right.
Once the SoS for Justice/LC moved to the Commons with Jack Straw in 2007 then the order changed. That's why the failures of Grayling, Truss and Raab stand out.
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Seems to be more a nominal title than any great office of power. I think that's why raab got given it, to keep him away from anything vaguely important.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Tue 5 Jul 22 at 20:59
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>> Seems to be more a nominal title than any great office of power. I think
>> that's why raab got given it, to keep him away from anything vaguely important.
Given the role vis a vis the Judiciary and issues around the Constitution I'd say different.
If one thinks responsibilities, shared with the Lord Chief Justice, around the whole Judicial system are a nominal title away from anything vaguely important then a period of reflection is needed.
And I mean by the PM rather than Sooty.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 5 Jul 22 at 21:20
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That's fine, the wiki reads as in charge of the courts and rubber stamps various appointments. I'd say health and defence, for example, sat above it in terms of importance and political pecking order especially amongst politicians.
Anyway, I'm a little surprised the PM hasn't gone tonight.
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Plenty more bitter chunks of uselessness to stir up from the dregs of the Tory party as Cabinet ministers.
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>> Anyway, I'm a little surprised the PM hasn't gone tonight.
I'm glad he's still there.
If nothing else it'll pee off the Boris haters even more.
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>> >> Anyway, I'm a little surprised the PM hasn't gone tonight.
>>
>> I'm glad he's still there.
>>
>> If nothing else it'll pee off the Boris haters even more.
I don't hate Johnson, who probably can't help being a malignant narcissist, as much as the people who put him there and continue to defend the indefensible.
My own feelings aside, for the benefit of the country's reputation he needs to go - but meanwhile his being there is probably reducing his stinking party's chances of winning the next election. As ever, nothing is all bad.
Meanwhile this, and Starmer's unfortunately timed launch of his Brexit plans, play into the hands of the SNP. With the prospect of rejoining the EU removed they will claim an absolute right to another plebiscite on independence, despite the fact that they already know the answer - Scottish opinion is divided roughly 50/50, half the population will hate the result, the Brexit experience has pretty well demonstrated what a cock-up independence will be if they commit without an full blueprint, and IMO any Scot with the country's interest at heart would not be wanting to impose the division and risk on their country in the global situation. But the SNP will do it.
Assuming they are denied a referendum by Westminster, they intend to make the next Scottish parliamentary election solely about independence, i.e. a one policy manifesto and if they get a majority they will take that as a mandate to leave the UK. I actually don't think it would work, and the electorate would punish them for it, but I'm not that close to Scottish opinion - I'd like to hear yours Bobby:)
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>> Meanwhile this, and Starmer's unfortunately timed launch of his Brexit plans, play into the hands
>> of the SNP. With the prospect of rejoining the EU removed they will claim an
>> absolute right to another plebiscite on independence, despite the fact that they already know the
>> answer -
Someone needs to point out to them that they will never, ever, technically qualify for EU membership, and even if they did Spain would veto it because of the Catalan issue.
Vote for independence by all means, but not on the back of an impossible benefit.
Starmer is right to abandon EU reentry. The country wont stand for it, we really dont want it now, it wont be good for us. And they wont have us,.
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 6 Jul 22 at 11:58
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>>Vote for independence by all means, but not on the back of an impossible benefit.
...what about Unicorns - can they promise those? (After all, they've got one on their Arms)
Last edited by: tyrednemotional on Wed 6 Jul 22 at 11:59
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>> ...what about Unicorns - can they promise those? (After all, they've got one on their
>> Arms)
Its just a Glasgow stag that lost an antler in a fight.
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 6 Jul 22 at 12:59
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Andrew Marr on LBC this evening was all over the place and predicted BJ would be gone in a couple of hours (this was at six).... come on he's come this far not even the men in grey suits are getting him out anytime soon, he does exactly the opposite of what is 'traditional' which is how he's been able to hang on... I mean, our PM saying he 'forgot' about the meetings seems to be OK for the Cabinet and I'm sure most will stand by him until the end... maybe he's ditched the ways of Churchill and is now following Nero!
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Javid and Rishi are trying to distance themselves from Boris - they can see the writing on the wall and want to keep their future political hopes alive.
The rest of the cabinet probably realise that, in the event of a leadership change, they will be out of a job. They are backing Boris because they have nowhere else to go.
The principal concern of Boris is Boris - he will not go without extreme pressure.
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The big point here is that it is Johnson who is the problem, and whilst to most I imagine that is a statement of the bleeding obvious, the one person who needs to see it clearly doesn't.
Javid and Sunak have taken one option, for which they get a bit of credit but not much as they clearly knew what Johnson was and stuck with him for 3 years.
Thinking about Zahawi's position this morning as I listened to him, I concluded that for a serving cabinet minister who genuinely wants to do their best for the country there is no obvious way of dealing with the situation if Johnson simply won't accept that he is so damaging. The fact is that we need a Chancellor - not to have one would immensely harmful to confidence and the economy.
Arguably Sunak (in this thought experiment) could have said to Johnson "look, you have to go. I won't work with you. But it's you who should suffer the consequences, not the country, and I shouldn't have to resign. So beggar off now, or else." Perhaps he did.
I wonder what passed between Zahawi and Johnson last night. Zahawi was just a bit too fulsome in his support for Johnson this morning, which if genuine would make Zahawi just another self-serving careerist, but I would prefer to think he has told Johnson a few home truths.
Amongst all the repetitive comments last night, Ed Vaizey made a good one, perhaps in jest. "Rishi is good leadership material - he's so rich he's incorruptible, and he's one of the few people in the cabinet who can do joined up writing".
I'm not so sure about incorruptibility - I have a feeling there are plenty of corrupt billionaires.
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Players/politicians need to show loyalty to, and support for, the team. In any walk of life (sport, politics, business etc) this will be tested by poor individual behaviours and performances.
Support for Boris, despite his obvious flaws, is part of playing for the team. Like a football manager - lose a couple of matches - get some stick, relegation looming - get fired.
Replacements - probably one perceived as largely independent of the Boris brand.
Of the current cabinet, Sunak and Javid may have done just enough to demonstrate their integrity by quitting their posts. Zahawi seems to have positive public perceptions. Outsider may be Ben Wallace who has avoided close links with Boris.
Raab, Patel, Gove, Truss - little or no chance - they supported Boris and have made material judgement errors as ministers.
Outside the cabinet there are a few who seem to be serious, balanced individuals - a few names - Tobias Ellwood, Andrew Bridgen, Jeremy Hunt. They need to be perceived by the public as honest, but capable of bringing the party together,
Just a view - but the very wealthy, of which there are several in the cabinet, do it to be of service to their country or community (may or may not be arrogant self belief). The average or poort are more easily "bought".
It is be more profitable to stay outside politics using wealth and influence to corrupt politicians, than to be corrupt under a constant media spotlight.
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Even the most avid of Boris lovers must surely by now equally hate being serially lied to by him?
If they don’t, that has to seem at least a bit weird doesn’t it? A bit like a serially abused spouse who continues to defend their abuser.
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Its quite simple, your actions now depend on your short term plans for the future.
If you plan to make a bid for leadership in the short term, you kick the currently unpopular one in the nuts, publicly distancing yourself from the smelly pile of poo, claiming to be a fresh smelling new daisy. You realise your chance is now, and you'l lnever get a second bite.
If your plans are longer term, then you stick with it, grab what promotions are going, then put the boot in when it all collapses claiming that all the time you had misgivings but displayed loyalty
That all looks super on your CV 5 years down the line. .
Anyone who has been anywhere on the corporate ladder recognises the scenario.
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>>
>> That all looks super on your CV 5 years down the line. .
>>
...What people claim on Linkedin they have done (and my knowledge of who really did it) is a regular source of amusement to me.
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>> The big point here is that it is Johnson who is the problem
...I have to disagree with this. Boris is most certainly a problem, but if the Tory party hadn't divested itself of almost everyone with integrity, capability and an ethical background, then he would by now have been an ex-problem.
Whilst he himself had a hand in this scorched-earth policy, he isn't the only one who carries blame.
The problem now is the whole of the Tory party, and virtually everyone (with few exceptions) that sails under that flag.
Can anyone think of an earlier Tory government where any of the current ministers (maybe the odd exception) would have got anywhere near such a job.
It won't be long, however, before Mad Nads is the last supported left - can she do all the ministerial jobs at the same time?
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>> >> The big point here is that it is Johnson who is the problem
>>
>> ...I have to disagree with this....
I don't think we disagree that much - Johnson is the keystone, and the first obstacle but if he went tomorrow they would not only need a leader, they would struggle to populate all those ministerial post with capable people who haven't been seen to prop up a charlatan.
I saw Dominic Grieve on the box this morning. I felt as if I was looking at an endangered species. Perhaps a few like him would come back.
Of equal concern is the damage done to the civil service, which I perceive to have been seriously undermined and knocked about by the demands of Brexit, cost cuts, and endless reorganisation.
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I hear the queen has returned to Windsor from Sandringham. Wonder if she's expecting a visit from someone?
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Looks like he'll be gone by News at 10.
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there are fears that he might dissolve Parliament and call a General Election.
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>> there are fears that he might dissolve Parliament and call a General Election.
>>
Is that technically possible with the Fixed Term Parliament Act?
I thought there had to be a vote and I am not sure that the Conservative MPs would be in a mood for that at present.
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Considering his disordered personality he'll see calling a GE as no more 'iffy' than proroguing parliament was.
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The fixed term parliament act was repealed on 24th March 2022. Dissolving Parliament is now the prerogative of the Queen acting on the advice of her the Prime Minister.
Perhaps Boris realised that having the ability to call an election at the time of HIS choosing was going to be useful. And in the circumstances would the Queen accept the advice of her Prime Minister.
To play safe, they need to get Boris out before he can get to see the Queen, and/or make sure that she is unavailable - health, travelling, other engagements etc etc
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That Act was repealed earlier this year.
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Latest Odds: Next Prime Minister
Penny Mordaunt 9/2 favourite
Rishi Sunak 5/1
Sajid David 7/1
Ben Wallace 8/1
Liz Truss 9/1
Jeremy Hunt 10/1
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>> there are fears that he might dissolve Parliament and call a General Election.
God - he still thinks his people love him. Deluded he am
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>> >> there are fears that he might dissolve Parliament and call a General Election.
>>
>> God - he still thinks his people love him. Deluded he am
>>
VxFan for one
There are others who think Keir Starmer is posher then Boris and will vote Boris for that reason when in fact it's the other way around.
Last edited by: zippy on Wed 6 Jul 22 at 18:25
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>> >> God - he still thinks his people love him. Deluded he am
>> VxFan for one
I'm not sure Bojo will be comforted by that.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 8 Jul 22 at 10:57
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Bojo refusing to go, Gove sacked - called a "snake" apparently.
You cant make this crap up can you.
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Would Power-sharing between Dorries and Rees-Mogg count as a coalition govt?
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Every time I hear the name Dorries I think of Dolores Claiborne!?
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Very close but Dorries is a horror story not a crime drama.
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Wonder if Carrie can push another baby out by tomorrow?
Failing that he will probably jump on a plane to Ukraine.
Remember, he is our Trump and similar to Trump, he is in denial.
He is not going to go down without a big fight. And he doesn’t care about collateral damage. He is probably on the phone to his pal Putin asking him to send some bombs this way.
Many people saw this coming and yet many others still thought, and still think, he is the bees knees.
The UK is well and truly screwed just now due to him, his Brexit and his lies and it’s going to take a long long time to recover.
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>>
>> The UK is well and truly screwed just now due to him, his Brexit and
>> his lies and it’s going to take a long long time to recover.
>>
If ever. I see businesses every day that used to have thriving exports to Europe that have all but dried up. Billions in revenue lost. One I am working on moved their entire operations to The Netherlands - over 200 jobs lost from the UK, not including UK suppliers (e.g. they had a dozen subcontracted trucks from a haulier).
Skills are being lost too. A CNC manufacturer is now training apprentices in Italy and Germany, not the UK, because they can no longer hop on a plane or Train to Brussels to fix a failed machine, in the same was someone from Essen or Turin can.
Why do business with us when they can trade seamlessly with the rest of Europe and their other favoured status nations.
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Who will be the next Prime Minister ? - Manatee
