Earlier this year I moved, to a city location. I say city, I moved into Chichester rather than a village nearby. As a result I find myself using the cars much less on a day to day basis, though total mileage doesn’t seem to have dropped much. It occurs to me, in the current climate of inflated second hand car prices, that now might after all be a good time to change the MINI, which while a fantastic car is somewhat a waste of 192bhp when it’s pottering around town. The Merc I am keeping. A smallish EV on the other hand might make sense… I have off street parking and a charger, and so perhaps it’s time to take the plunge?
As we have a few early adopters of ev cars on the site, I thought I’d bounce my thoughts off the group as it’s not a sector of the market I’m up to speed on. Based on cars I see locally the e-Corsa and Peugeot equivalent are quite common, as is the MINI. There are also a few of the little Hondas, which look good but that I think, along with the MINI, has a low range. I know range isn’t the be all and end all for cars used locally, but I do think that as technology continues to improve a car with a very short range will soon seem outdated. The sweet spot range wise seems to be 200/250 miles for small cars. Larger cars do better, and the BMW i3 is still a good looking little car I think, and again pretty common. But it is an old design now. The Zoe is also an old design I think. Should I be bothered? The VW iD3 looks a bit odd, and the others in the segment are bigger and more SUV like than I want - MB EQA, Lexus UX-e, Ionique.
So, I think the shortlist is an e-Corsa/e-208/DS3 electric (which I assume are all the same car) or an i3. I’d really like a MINI, but a 140 mile range seems too low. They all seem to be available to lease for between £250 and £350 a month, though they cost between £25k and £40k depending on spec etc. But, the Clubman I paid £30ish K for 3.5 years ago is still worth £20k or so, so it’s cost £250ish a month in depreciation and the cost to change could be £5k to £20k. Obviously the ev will be cheaper to run, to start with, though cost saving is not the object, just having a car suitable for the job and trying out living with a full ev. Oh, and let’s be honest, a new car ;) Have I missed any obvious candidate?
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My thoughts, If you are keeping the Merc, do you really need EV range in excess of 150 miles? In other words are you limiting your model choice when you dont need to?
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>> My thoughts, If you are keeping the Merc, do you really need EV range in
>> excess of 150 miles? In other words are you limiting your model choice when you
>> dont need to?
>>
Your right, I don’t really. Just a niggling thought that when selling these things in 3/4 years time range will inevitably have moved on, and what seems a bit on the low side now will be laughable then. But perhaps people do far fewer miles than I think and it won’t be an issue. Id rather have a MINI!
Last edited by: PeterS on Sun 31 Oct 21 at 10:07
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Just a niggling thought that when selling these things in
>> 3/4 years time range will inevitably have moved on, and what seems a bit on
>> the low side now will be laughable then. But perhaps people do far fewer miles
>> than I think and it won’t be an issue. Id rather have a MINI!
>>
I wouldn't have thought it, even early Leafs are still decent money.
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I thought I read the other day that a new battery technology was cheaper etc but also a slightly lower range. So I'm not sure hyper ranges are in the near future anyway
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I can't offer much on the various models but I would say that if you are only looking at using the car for "pottering about" (and keeping the Merc) then I wouldn't have thought long range was that important. My Ampera only did between 30 - 40 electric miles before the ICE kicked in but that covered nearly all of my motoring. I only put petrol in every 3 months or so, and then rarely filled it completely.
EDIT: Z said the same quicker!
Last edited by: smokie on Sun 31 Oct 21 at 08:59
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Sister-in-law has an old Corsa that did fewer than 1K miles last year. She only uses it to go to the local supermarket a couple of times a week. It cost £100s last MOT for brakes. I suggested she got a mobility scooter and saved tax/insurance/MOT bills, she's still not talking to me. Dare I suggest a Citroen Ami?
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Why not suggest an Uber, or local taxi firm account?
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I didn’t even know such a thing existed…! So thanks for suggesting it…but it’s barely a car is it?!? I reckon on the journeys it’d be used for it would total maybe 5/6k a year, with the Merc doing 9 or 10k.
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Aren't they the ones you don't need a car license to drive, a quadricycle?
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>>she's still not talking to me
Not the wisest suggestion - Taxis might have been a better idea assuming the supermarket is nearby.
Neighbour takes the pensioner "free bus" in to the town & taxi back with the bags.
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I don't think taxis are a practical solution. Local news reports fares are increasing and doubling at night because the drivers are leaving for more lucrative driving jobs.
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An obvious point perhaps, but before we got the Zoe (best I ever got was 113 miles) I spent a month or so just logging mileage each day. At the end I think there was one trip that I guessed would have been out of range, and that would have had charging at the other end, so we went for it.
Then for a while we had both the Zoe and an ICE car, and never gave it a thought, just using the Zoe in preference where possible. That's a good combination.
As it was on PCP I didn't have to think about resale value anyway.
If I were in the market for something similar today, I'd be drawn to the Honda, but there's a Whole Bunch of EVs coming next yearish, including the new Renault Megane. And indeed a new electric Renault 5, which could be fun.
Last edited by: Crankcase on Sun 31 Oct 21 at 14:36
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Thanks Crankcase. Leasing, a MiNI is only just over £200 a month for a Level 2 which, at £2k more than the entry level car seems reasonable value. The next one up, Level 3 is another £4k and the only things of use are a panoramic roof, adaptive LED lights and a HUD. It also includes nice to have leather, but even then £4k seems too much!
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Our thought process was more like "ICE Volvo has all the toys and leather. Zoe needs no more than A to B, repeatedly, for buttons. Who cares about toys on a run to the garden centre".
So we had the most basic, and crucially for me ever to think about an EV at all anyway, the cheapest. But I'm tight like that.
Now they're not cheap, I've lost interest at the moment.
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Daughter has had the e-208 for about a year now. Main car for long distance is their 2017 Octavia Estate. She uses the 208 locally to the shops, in laws etc and now attending post natal classes and NCT Mother/Baby get togethers.
Pre maternity she was working at home most of the time but it's no problem between her home near Shotton and the office at Speke (Liverpool) when she went in for odd days.
Think she's used it longer distance once when they went to the Steam Punk bash in Lincoln. Bit of anxiety over finding a charging spot but no real drama.
Not been in it. Was offered a ride when we were there a fortnight ago but time etc and it being trapped behind the Octy meant in never happened. Nice looking car and it seems to have adapted well to being a baby wagon. Think they had a bit of shopping around and head scratching to find the right seat; so called universal fitting is apparently anything but.
Next door have an e-2008 which she also seems happy with. Fortunately it was out this morning when the 'mini tornado' hit.
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Range may not be so much of an issue for resale values in years to come.
Assuming recharging points continue to become more accessible, the question will increasingly be "is it capable of fast recharge".
If there are few journeys of over (say) 150 miles, then a 30-45 minute stop for coffee and facilities would just need to be factored into the occassional journey.
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Perhaps a little smaller than what PeterS is looking for (4 seat city car) but if anyone is in the market for a small EV I would look at this deal.
£170/mth for 3 years (no deposit) for 5k/yr, or £200/mth for 10k.
www.selectcarleasing.co.uk/car-leasing/volkswagen/e-up/hatchback/60kw-e-up-32kwh-5dr-auto?mileage=5000&term=36&initial_payment=1
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I like the Up! Andrew had one shortly after they came out - a 3 door 75PS High Up! But the three door looks much better than the 5 door I think, and the Vw looks better than the Skoda/Seat equivalent because of the up-kick of the rear window. iMO…! MINI 48 hour test drive booked for later this week…
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The E-Up sounds like the ideal vehicle for my fellow Yorkshiremen...
Will get my own coat.
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>> The E-Up sounds like the ideal vehicle for my fellow Yorkshiremen...
>>
.....yeah, but.......... 'Ow Much!?
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T’ ay can afford it......
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>>An obvious point perhaps, but before we got the Zoe (best I ever got was 113 miles) >>
A friend has the latest Zoe. It's comfortable, remarkably quick off the mark and does up to almost 300 miles on a charge.
The front of the house charger was supposed to be the standard output, with a higher charge version some £1,000 more. However, the installer said the only difference was that you moved an internal lever and it was set for the best charging rate...!
He refused to do it himself, but watch as my friend altered the lever's position.
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Range sounds great now, then. I bet it's more than £79 a month though...
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Zoe - Renaults claim of 239 miles (which they admit is theoretical) and real range of 150ish is not "nearly 300"
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 3 Nov 21 at 08:07
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ZOE 50kWh has a WLTP of 245 miles.
That means ~300 miles in summer at urban/suburban speeds, down to 140 miles in crappy winter conditions.
My ZS has a WLTP of 163 miles, so 200 in perfect conditions as limp-mode speeds, and 110 in awful winter (could go under 100 at 75mph+ in wet roads /freezing temps... so I don't)
Best I have seen for consumption was 6.1m/kWh (theroetical range ~240miles) crawling from Edinburgh to North Berwick. Worst was 1.9m/kWh (range ~80 miles) at 'hero' mph on a chilly morning along an empty motorway at the start of lockdown spring 2020.
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>> That means ~300 miles in summer at urban/suburban speeds,
Rubbish.
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Done 50k miles in an EV have we?
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Find me someone who has done 300 miles in NORMAL suburban use that Renault. I'm not holding my breath.
I know you are a EV convert, but the currents involved have fried the impartiality cortex of your brain.
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I guess brushing too many dogs prevented you reading my whole post and just jump on a soundbite.
Can a ZOE 50 manage 300 miles in suburban driving? Yes in the middle of summer.
Will it in reality? No unless you are a minicabber who never leaves town (and minicabbers in ZOE? Nah)
Couple of minicabbers on speakev.com ran 27kWh KIA Souls and were regularly managing 160+ miles between charges in summer as they never left the city.
Unless Stuartli's pal does similar driving I also doubt very much he goes 300 miles between charges, and at the moment 180-200 miles is more likely in mixed driving.
To qualify your original statement of Renault says 150 miles is realistic, they actually say 150 miles in winter and 233 miles in summer.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Wed 3 Nov 21 at 13:46
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>> To qualify your original statement of Renault says 150 miles is realistic, they actually say
>> 150 miles in winter and 233 miles in summer.
And neither is 300 miles. And the "real range" was not a Renault claim, but testers. Which was the point where you jumped in (talking of soundbite guilt)
As for me and sound bites, what the EV industry does not need is "WOW I COULD get this", when in fact you haven't. You may have done 50,000 EVmiles but you aint done 50,000 EV miles achieving maximum range.
So do us favour, boast about the real world range and not some airy fair theoretical maximum that assumes a car starts of at 100% maximum charge, uses no onboard systems other than propulsion and does not shut off before the battery is exhausted to save the systems.
Thank you.
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 3 Nov 21 at 14:20
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>> So do us favour.............
Yes, please do.
Put your willies away and stop arguing.
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 3 Nov 21 at 14:27
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Well tomorrow I pick up an electric MINI, which I think has a claimed range of 145 miles. I have it for 72 hours now, so I’ll let you all know how far I get :)
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>>Well tomorrow I pick up an electric MINI, which I think has a claimed range of 145 miles
100 miles tops if you are driving it as it should be driven
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>> >>Well tomorrow I pick up an electric MINI, which I think has a claimed range
>> of 145 miles
>>
>> 100 miles tops if you are driving it as it should be driven
>>
I intend on using it around the city (though Chichester is really a small market town…) and excursions as far away as Emsworth, Arundel and maybe even Petworth!! So urban and semi-urban flat-ish roads, and a trip up and over the Downs. It’s been frosty here the last couple of mornings as well. Let’s see how far it goes :)
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The "precondition" function on the Zoe is great now that the mornings are getting colder. As its used on an irregular basis we need to remember to switch it on rather than relying on the timer but getting into a warm car is a wonderful thing.
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>> >>Well tomorrow I pick up an electric MINI, which I think has a claimed range
>> of 145 miles
>>
>> 100 miles tops if you are driving it as it should be driven
>>
Well day 1 has gone pretty well. It felt like a MINI to drive, though the three door is considerably smaller than the clubman, and doesn’t have quite the same sort of quality feel to the interior. But, it’s got 184 bhp which is near identical to the Cooper S, and a claimed 0 to 60 of 7.3 seconds, a bit slower than the Cooper S Clubman. The demo is a ‘Level 3’ spec, in British Racing Green (it actually looks a bit brighter than a proper BRG, but no matter…) with some yellow bits of exterior trim and a black leather interior. Nice colour outside, not keen on the black interior. Well specc’ed and feels solid. Doesn’t feel particularly heavy to drive, though it must be heavier than a petrol MINI. The suspension is surprisingly compliant…I forgot to see if it’s on run-flats. Will take a look tomorrow. Not noticeably quieter than the Clubman but as I found with the e-tron, at lower speeds it’s tyre and road noise that is most noticeable, not a petrol engine. Maybe different for diesel. I didn’t go fast enough for wind noise to be an issue, and it was too chilly to think about opening the sunroof!
It was fully charged when I picked it up, and showed a somewhat disappointing range of 122 miles. Driving back from MINI (avoiding the A27 by going north and on semi rural roads) plus pottering around town to the gym, Waitrose and the Tinwood vineyards meant it covered 28 miles in somewhat chilly weather, with climate control. heated seats and heated steering wheel all used as I would normally. The range when I parked it this evening was down to 101 miles. I assume the remaining range is calculated as in a petrol car, using a rolling consumption over the previous ‘x’ miles and the level of charge? Tomorrow brings some hills, and possibly faster speeds. I don’t think I exceeded 50ish today, and most of the driving was sub 40 mph. I forgot to reset the OBC so don’t know what the car thinks it’s average speed and consumption was, but will try and remember tomorrow.
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I'm sure you'll have read here before that consumption can be quite adversely affected by driving style, turning on electrical stuff in the car, colder weather, wet roads etc etc.
I think the range is only expected to be about that much (120 miles) isn't it?
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The car went back this morning…so actually more than 72 hours - more like 90.
In that time I travelled 150 miles - so pretty normal day to day use. I managed 126 before I plugged it in…lower than I’d let it get if I had one, as I’d do what we did with the e-tron and plug it in every night anyway. The MINI said it had 10 miles of charge left when I did plug it in.
It’s a nice thing to blat around town / urban / semi rural roads on. No downside to the petrol one as far as I can see, other than the higher upfront cost. But, cheap as chips to run. The 30ish kWh used to recharge it cost a little over a fiver on my fixed rate tariff (with a proper company who won’t be going bust any time soon). I reckon that’s about 4p per mile. The Clubman averages 38 mpg - that’s about 17p per mile. The Merc nearer 22. MINIs also have very reasonable service costs, so is only ever going to need servicing every couple of years. The tyres are runflats, but you can ‘downgrade’ to 17” wheels when ordering which would improve the ride further I think, and I’d guess at 8/10k miles a year would only need replacing every couple of years too.
Not that I needed converting, but it’d definitely work as a second car… it’d probably work as a main car, bar the long European trips for which a hire car would be needed, as would be the case for longer trips in the U.K. really. Having said that, there’s one of those car club things that operates in Chichester, so actually one could use that and it’s rather dull Toyota Corolla (?) estates for anything needing more space / longer range. I’m really quite tempted to order one…
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How on earth did you manage to get such a long test drive? We're looking at a Mini Electric as a second car - max we can get is 24 hours...
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>> How on earth did you manage to get such a long test drive? We're looking
>> at a Mini Electric as a second car - max we can get is 24
>> hours...
>>
Well I’ve bought either for us/myself or work 4 cars from them over the last few years, which I’m sure helped. But they were offering a 48 hour test drive when I bought the clubman, and so I asked for the same this time which was fine with them. But rather than take it back Saturday afternoon I took it back Sunday morning instead (with their agreement obviously…!)
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Goes to show how a good relationship pays dividends!
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When I took the MG out I expected to be offered 30 mins drive round by the salesperson.
They asked how long I wanted it for. I said what's reasonable?
She said just ask and we'll see what we can do. So I took 2 hours, on my own.
I know someone else that went to them the following week for a drive and they could only book a 30 min drive for weeks away, as in the meantime the car had got some publicity somewhere which was causing queueing at the door for test drives.
So I suppose it also dependent on demand (= availability).
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My Local BMW palace didnt have a 540i touring.
So they gave me a 520d Touring for 24 hours, then a 540i saloon for 24 hours, and to "add the experience together"
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>> My Local BMW palace didnt have a 540i touring.
>>
>> So they gave me a 520d Touring for 24 hours, then a 540i saloon for
>> 24 hours, and to "add the experience together"
>>
Yeah. Desperate to get rid of those old Beemers.
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>>So do us favour, boast about the real world range and not some airy fair theoretical maximum that assumes a car starts of at 100% maximum charge, uses no onboard systems other than propulsion and does not shut off before the battery is exhausted to save the systems.
Re-reading my stuff I don't see any boasting - just describing the laws of Physics.
I said my car does between 80 and 240 miles theoretically, and 120-160miles in practice.
Stuartli's friend's assertion is as plausible as the chaps who say their car does 60/70/80mpg.
Well maybe it does, but so do the cars of the irate queue stuck behind them at 35mph on a boiling hot summer day.
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Be it petrol or Electric or [spit] diesel, I like to know the various figures - including maximum and likely, urban or motorway, hot or cold, etc etc.
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>> Unless Stuartli's pal does similar driving I also doubt very much he goes 300 miles between charges, and at the moment 180-200 miles is more likely in mixed driving.>>
Stuart's "pal" is a lady and she doesn't hang about - I know because I've joined her on one or two of the daily trips to Liverpool.
Perhaps if you read my original comment about the mileage the Zoe covers, you may change your mind. She knows pretty accurately how much "juice" she has left and how far she can travel on it and that includes fast dual carriageway and busy city streets traffic.
Important when you are doing approaching three figure mileages daily (two trips, each of around 21 miles each way).
Last edited by: Stuartli on Fri 12 Nov 21 at 14:10
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>> Find me someone who has done 300 miles in NORMAL suburban use that Renault. I'm not holding my breath.>>
The friend I mentioned does around 21miles each way to drop off and pick up her special needs child and that's twice a day on a mixture of dual carriageway and Liverpool roads.
I know she does at least three days on that schedule and uses high speed charging to top up for the last two days because I've been with her on the journey.
I was really quite amazed at the Zoe, a long way from the Peugoet 106 EV I drove in France in the early 1990s - I notice in a road test that the Zoe is regarded as one of the decade's trendsetters in its field.
Last edited by: Stuartli on Thu 4 Nov 21 at 00:11
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Our Zoe with the 50kWh battery was getting 400 km before I told my wife how to switch the eco mode off.
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Do you still need to “rent” Zoe batteries?
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>>Do you still need to "rent" Zoe batteries?
I think they stopped that a couple of years ago.
Anyone who buys a 2nd hand ZOE with a rental agreement on the battery can pay a chunk to the finance company to buy the battery outright which wasn't initially possible.
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I often wondered how private and second hand sales of Zoe’s worked with that battery arrangement.
Wonder how it was managed to ensure new owners took on the agreement legally?
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The new cars are "buy only", I think.
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Nissan did battery leasing or whatever it was with the Leaf too
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Have you made any decisions yet?
We struck a deal yesterday on a Mini Electric '2' in chilli red. January delivery apparently. Mrs DB liked it very much.
We will be an all electric household once it arrives. Will be interesting to see how we get on organising our charging - hopefully there won't be days we both get home and say "I need to charge"!
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Hopefully agreeing a deal on a MINI Electric ‘2’ in British Racing Green tomorrow…. ‘2’ seems like the best value version…the ‘3’ is £4k more, and while the panoramic roof and matrix LED lights (and to a lesser extent the leather) are worth something to me, I’m not interested in the upgraded NAV on a car just used locally, and the fancy parking stuff is also surely not really needed on a 3 door MINI! I’ve already got a charger, but a wander round over the weekend has rather opened my eyes…there are a further 12 public EV charging points within a 5 minute walk of home, should they be needed.
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With current second hand prices you should do ok with the Mini.
I was contemplating buying an old LHD car and leaving it in Spain…prices are silly…I know a tatty 3 door very old Ibiza with 300k kilometres on the clock recently sold for €2k.
I’ll continue renting
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Yes, second prices till remain crazily high. We bought the MINI Clubman new in August 2018 for a fraction under £30,000. The list price at the time was £34k ish. 39 months later the trade-in offer for the car, now with around 16,000 miles and a full service history (one service, an MOT and brake fluid change), is £22k. On a pence per mile basis that’s not brilliant, but it’s not done many miles. On a £ / month basis it’s not much more than £200. Which is very good I think. The list price of of the new one is £28.5k after the government incentives and including options. So even without a discount the cost to change for a new car is not much more than £6k. I’m hoping for nearer £5k… let’s see…
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I expect Spain is similar to Portugal - loads of 2nd home owners who want a car for quite a few months a year so renting becomes dear therefore there is no concept of a cheap runaround. I'm paying over £500 for a 7 week rental next autumn (unless prices drop in the meantime!!).
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I know that’s perhaps more than you’ve paid in the past, but in isolation £500 or so is only a little over a tenner a day inst it? Still seems remarkably cheap in the great scheme of things?
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smokie....hope you ticked the ‘free cancellation’ option if you used the broker DYS.
Often I’ve found that one or two weeks prior prices drop like a stone...as previously I doubt the days of €15/40 for a fortnights rental will be returning soon, although hire fleets are now restocking.
A tenner a day when you’ve two trips of 45 days adds up, and I need a car to get into the hills 5 days a week during the autumn/winter/spring walking seasons.
Last edited by: legacylad on Mon 15 Nov 21 at 20:13
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A tenner a day when you’ve two trips of 45 days adds up, and I
>> need a car to get into the hills 5 days a week during the autumn/winter/spring
>> walking seasons.
>>
>>
A tenner a day is still dirt cheap to hire a car.
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>> A tenner a day is still dirt cheap to hire a car.
>>
It probably is in the UK and places away from mass holiday destinations.
6 years, and at least 35 rental periods of between 13 and 21 days, tell me it isn’t.
Check out DoYouSpain...22 November until 5 December, just random dates from Alicante airport, gets me a 5 door Clio, with free cancellation in case prices drop, for €54.75. That’s €4.20 (£3.60) a day, with Firefly. Whom I’ve used many times without any problems.
Goldcar are even cheaper but I won’t use them.
Obviously you have the annual expense of a UK bought £45 CDW policy.
I know how to use the system, as do you now !
Hope that helps with any future rentals.
Last edited by: legacylad on Mon 15 Nov 21 at 21:12
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I'm afraid I've no likelihood of long sunny holidays to spain any time soon (or anywhere else) retirement is many years away yet.
A couple of quid a day seems weirdly cheap, but I guess there must be some logic behind it.
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Hope you get to that point at sometime in future....
Meanwhile, one weeks rental, for those still working, 21-28 November, paying extra for free cancellation and ‘full to full’ fuel which you should always book, would set you back €27.54 for an i10 with RecordGo. A company I’ve used on several occasions without any hassle.
The scare tactics on collection about taking out their insurance, breakdown cover etc, are always politely declined...but you need a decent balance on your credit card as anything between €700 & €1250 is blocked to cover the max excess.
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>> Hope you get to that point at sometime in future....
>>
Hopefully, I'll probably be more concerned about where and how much it costs to plug in and recharge by then.
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Sorry, been away for a couple of days - but LL said it - although it is cheap, it has regularly been much MUCH cheaper, and my last rental was 42 days (split, like LL does) so it does feel like quite an increase.
It's also a fact that I don't actually need a car much of the time while in Portugal, there are whole lumps of time when it just stands outside the house, but I like the convenience and we'd miss it if we didn't have it. Also it was so cheap as to not be significant, But if the prices continue to rise I may revert to just getting one for part of the holiday.
I gather US car hire has also gone up quite a bit.
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I think you're right that the '2' seems to be the sweet spot. We were very impressed with a short drive we had. To be honest, I don't think a longer drive was needed. We replicated the commute it'll do and it was just fine.
Advantage was taken of the current ridiculous used car prices. Part exchanged a 2018 Citroen C3 for £500 more than was paid 2 years and 14k miles ago.
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Small-ish EVs - Zero
