Rant, rant rant. Engine out to change the clutch every 150k; two days to remove the cylinder heads; pollen filters that aren't accessible; timing belts that cost a fortune every 60k. Several examples from threads in the last couple of days.
In the good old days the clutch was a 90 minute job; the cylinder head gasket changed at the roadside; no pollen filter; no timing belt.
But the estimated lifespan of the car was probably 50k - it wouldn't ever have REACHED its first new timing belt; the clutch would have lasted 40k, there wasn't a pollen filter at all.
And it would have rusted away, completely. Are things really so much worse?
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>> And it would have rusted away, completely. Are things really so much worse?
>>
No, I'm happy with modern cars that go on for a long time before they need fixing. I can't remember the last time I had a serious rust issue on a car (OK I can, it was SWMBO's Metro - Red Robbo limited edition), my 1996 Vectra is just starting to show some rust bubbling through on the door edges. Every car I've owned in the last few years has done 150K+, only big issue was the head gasket on the Omega at 126K.
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Real progress would be cars with the reliability of modern cars, and the ease of maintenance access of older ones.
I accept we need sophisticated, non user serviceable, £120 ph dealer diagnostic machine repairable fuel systems to meet modern demands for performance and low emissions, but to make a cambelt or headlamp bulb inaccessible, or a clutch take 9 hours to change is just urine-poor design. If it were unavoidable, all modern cars would be a swine to work on, and they aren't.
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I don't know why there's so much variation in time/mileage on cambelts.
I've just tested and serviced a 6 yr old Xsara 1400. Every year I think it might need a belt change and then refreah my memory from the book.
75K or 10 years..........sensible, it's only done 18K !
Ted
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Us post war baby boomers breathe a sigh of relief at todays reliable cars.
Highlights of failing areas in BMC products of the 60s & 70s ,before the vehicles were 3 year old (apart from frequent 5000 mile service intervals) :-
Radiator hoses, radiators, water pumps, wheel bearings, fuel tanks rotting through, sills , valances and boot floor rotting,body seams rotting, ball joints , shock absorbers, CV joints, new engine valves, carburettor jets/needles wearing, batteries on their slow way out, end float in crank shafts, luggage boot filling up with water, windscreen seals leaking- I can't go on so depressing.....
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Its one think I like about my FIRE engine it looks very simple. Even the main dealer only charges £140 including labour for a full cam belt kit.
Even if the cam belt does snap its a 'safe' engine.
My dads Fiesta is on 90,000 almost now, we have had lots of suspension issues and a bit of welding but engine wise the only thing to go in our ownership is the thermostat. Everything else is original apart from the user comsumables such as the battery and spark plugs. As far as I know even the HT leads the the originals.
Its a shame the suspension is made out of chocolate because it would be a dirt cheap car to run otherwise. Oh the CV joints also failed so I suppose that is engine related (e.g drive chain).
Not sure if it will hit 100k, I suspect the coil pack and HT leads will need doing before then.
The best thing about modern cars though is they always start first time in the morning. I am old enough to remember the 80's and early 90's when all you could hear on a cold morning on the way to school was the frustrating sound of people trying to start their MK2 Escorts.
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>> The best thing about modern cars though is they always start first time in the
>> morning. I am old enough to remember the 80's and early 90's when all you
>> could hear on a cold morning on the way to school was the frustrating sound
>> of people trying to start their MK2 Escorts.
Funny you should mention that, as we were having the same conversation in the car park earlier in the day. This cold, damp weather was always when the problems started.
That said, all my cars, including my 1976 Mini were pretty good starters, but it's not something you even think to question nowadays.
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>> I am old enough to remember the 80's and early 90's when all you
>> could hear on a cold morning on the way to school was the frustrating sound
>> of people trying to start their MK2 Escorts.
>>
That's not my memories of the 1960s. I remember the man opposite had an immaculate Wolseley 4/44 and it never failed to start instantly in the coldest weather.
It's cheap and nasty again versus quality. But I grant you one major change is that all cars are better built now, not just luxury ones.
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>>
>> But the estimated lifespan of the car was probably 50k - it wouldn't ever have
>> REACHED its first new timing belt; the clutch would have lasted 40k, >>
Which old days are you referring to? There were cars in the 60s capable of gigantic mileages - the Volvo Amazon set the pace for Volvo's subsequent longevity fame, but there were doubtless others.
Wasn't it really the case that it was well known how to make cars last decades and hundreds of thousands of miles, but the public preferred cheap and nasty things like Morris Minors?
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My "83 Plate" 160K Astra would start 1st time everytime on the dampest of mornings.
Ive never owned a car that DIDNT, I thought that problem was iradicated to the 60's and 70's by the time the 80's came round electonic ignition, and fuel injection was phasing in..
Certainly my "83 Plate" Astra had electroinc ingnition, albiet not fuel injection. - again started 1st time everytime no matter how damp it got and it was never garaged.
Last edited by: Redviper on Thu 23 Sep 10 at 13:32
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The key was body life. Volvo used masses of sealant and phospho something coating on the steel so that the paint stayed on. Once you have a body that can survive for years then you can replace mechanical parts as they fail. It doesn't work the other way around. You then start to notice that some mechanical parts don't last as long as you may wish so they improve and you're into a virtuous circle. Which, by some irony, currently ends in a Hyundai i10.
John
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>>The key was body life<<
The injuns were robustica as well John - OHV & OHC,
I don't think I ever came across a snapped cambelt in a 240 series.
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I once read that Henry Ford sent people around scrap yards. They were looking to see what parts in the scrapped cars were still serviceable so that the quality of manufacture could be reduced. The philosophy was that it should all fall apart at one time.
John
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>>The philosophy was that it should all fall apart at one time.<<
Reminds me of when I used to work for Hometune,
I preferred NGK plugs but they preferred Champion as they would fail much sooner!
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>> the public preferred cheap and nasty things like Morris Minors?
IMHO there were a number of factors at play when the 1000 was in its hay-day:
the public were patriotic
the public didn't have much spare cash in the 50's and early 60's (one wage coming in, Mrs at home bringing up the kids), at that time it was common to progress from push bike to motor bike, add a sidecar, and then aspire to a car. The 1000 was cheap, and by the standards of the day roomy and with nice accurate steering.
That said, the 1000 did rust quite badly (not much worse than many other mass market cars, and better than some - Vauxhall Victor?), but there was enough heavy gauge steel to weld to for repairs.
Also, the "A" series engine would start, given half a chance. And you could use the handle if the battery was a bit too flat.
Does anyone else remember the "Ford symphony" on a winters morning? - starter motors sawing away, getting slower and slower
But it must be said a typical modern car is a delight by comparison, in terms of comfort, reliability and economy.
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Does anyone else remember the "Ford symphony" on a winters morning? - starter motors sawing away, getting slower and slower
Oh yes (in Churchill voice) that will learn them to have flash new Cortinas every year.
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Just why was it that no Ford ever seemed to start on the first turn of the key?
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I think the problem was partly due to where the distributor was located on the Kent engines it seemed to attract damp. At least that is what I read. The problem of Fords not starting was cured when they went over to electronic ignition in the mid 80's.
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That was BMC / BLMH / whatever they were called that week. Distributor behind the radiator. When it rained they stopped.
John
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One guy on our street used to put the Cortina spark plugs in the oven.
No, he was not a master baker.
WD40 started to come on the market then and I used to spray everything on my Mini to ward off the dreaded damp starting problems.
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>> One guy on our street used to put the Cortina spark plugs in the oven.
>>
>> WD40 started to come on the market then and I used to spray everything on
>> my Mini to ward off the dreaded damp starting problems.
>>
All my Fords, 1600E, MkIV, MKIV , Sierra, Mondeo have all started without any problems from 1970 .....onwards and obviously my 1998 Mondeo is a bit more complicated.
Been a Ford man all these years with just a two year interruption with a Triumph 2000
I have had the coil pack fail on the Mondeo but it still started and ran ( lumpily).
I always ensured the old uns had good plugs, points and a good cap.
I always ensured the cap and plug leads were very clean using meths.
I have never ever used WD40 on any car engine.
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nope. my 1.6l 1990 Ford Escort was a regular bad starter in the colder mornings.
It would eventually fire into life and then ran on 3 cylinders for a while.
Changed numerous HT leads, Spark plugs which made little difference.
The funniest part of it was that on icy days, just trying to get into the car was a chore as the naff door locks froze solid.
Once unfrozen the central locking kept cycling (unlocking , locking) and some times had to climb into the car from the boot.
Sometimes the door rubber would freeze, so once the car door was open, you could not shut the door.
Then the real fun (listed above) of trying to start the car began.
A truly horrible car.
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>>Just why was it that no Ford ever seemed to start on the first turn of the key?<<
A fairly common fault that I often came across on Fords was with the cold start system which used a ballast resistor to lower the current to the coil but the 12v feed from the starter motor solonoid would often go TU denying sed coil from a full 12v upon start up hence a weak spark at the plugs.
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We had a succession of Cortinas and I don't recall starting problems with any of them.
Each was serviced regularly, garaged, and replaced at three years, so they should have been reliable.
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I was never a Ford man in my younger days, but do remember having the use of a Transit pick-up for an afternoon at some point around 1970.
ISTR making the mistake of touching the accelerator before it started, and that was apparently "a bad thing to do" - it didn't start.
Getting it going involved the owner in some jiggery-pokery, probably with pedal to the floor.
It wasn't like that with an SU.
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Years ago, I used to have a problem opening the doors on my Fords on icy mornings.
The rubber seal on the door used to freeze solid to the body.
In the end I (partly) solved the problem by using spray-on silicon lubricant.
Also, had a problem with the locks freezing. I bought a special heating gadget which consisted of a heated bar which you had to stick into the lock barrel. I was a bit dubious at first, but it seemed to actually work!
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The locks on my Escort used to freeze. I carried a lighter to warm the key. One day I was at a filling station, with a frozen filler cap. I got the lighter out and thought "not a good idea" and drove away. I eventually found a really good lubricant that kept them frost free. But even if the lock worked, as you say, the door often froze to the seals. I discovered that Pledge (has silicone in it) did the trick, though to begin with the easy answer was to try the passenger side door. It was often only frozen on one side.
John
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The other day I needed to change a sidelight bulb on the Discovery Series 2.
1) Remove lamp guards (genuine LR accessories)
2) Remove radiator grille (no, seriously!) I also had to flip the spot lights foward to get the grille out. I was just glad I hadn't fitted the A bar at that point!
3) Remove offending headlight unit - on the post 2002 discos there is one unit that houses everything.
4) Go into back of unit and change the bulb
5) Reassemble the whole lot again.
Honestly it looked like I was removing the whole front end of the car just to get at the bulb.
Before I bought this discovery I saw another of a similar age. When I told the driver that her car's offside headlight wasn't working, she replied that she had booked it into the garage to get it done. Then I thought she was just being lazy, now I know why!
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The handbook for my Qashqai informs me that I must not attempt to change a headlamp bulb and to refer it to the dealer. Something to do with them being xenons it says. That's handy then. I can change a headlamp bulb in my Mondeo in the time it takes to brew a cuppa.
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>> I can change a headlamp bulb in my Mondeo
>> in the time it takes to brew a cuppa.
Good 'ol Mondeo. You can't beat 'em.
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Starting my Y reg 1.6 Sierra was no more difficult than a modern car. Just turn the key and it would fire straight up on all four with no bother at all, in all weathers. What I do remember with carb fed engines was that they'd never quite pull right until warm and off choke. There was always a bit of hesitation and the odd gentle misfire, particularly up hills or when asked to accelerate briskly. Nothing major or breakdown threatening, just a totally different 'feel' when cold compared to when warm.
The same is true of most carb fed motorcycles I've ridden too.
Last edited by: DP on Thu 23 Sep 10 at 20:32
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Sierra, one of the best of the last of the simply designed cars or typical of it's time?
80's and 90's designs took some beating, they didn't have the clever brains of current models but generally they were durable safe reasonably economical reasonably fast and most important fairly simple to work on and didn't usually corrode as you looked at them which many 70's designs would.
Datsun/Nissan Bluebirds would cover 200K with reasonable (and simple) servicing just one example, it's not just the latest cars that can do this.
I think modern cars are superb in most cases spoiled by being designed to be manufactured with scarcely a thought to repair or major maintenance in the design stage, usual service items OK with some exceptions.
The cynic in me wonders whether they are designed to be increasingly expensive to repair as the years go by, do they really want trouble free Bluebirds again that can be fixed by any half competent mechanic anywhere?
My lads Seat Toledo was a typical example, 8 years old and needed radiator and heater matrix replacement. Rad required the whole front end to come off, heater matrix needed the entire dash assembly and half the rest of the interior stripping it must have been the first part fitted at manufacture stage, quite ridiculous.
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Heater?
We used to dream of having a heater.
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>> the entire dash assembly and half the rest of the interior stripping it must have
>> been the first part fitted at manufacture stage, quite ridiculous.
Of course it was the first part fitted. On an assembly line you cant have some greasy bloke climbing all over the seats with his head up behind the dashboard fitting the matrix while the line is trundling along at 2 mph.
They are considered fitted for life items.
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>> They are considered fitted for life items.
>>
Exactly, 8 or so years seems to be about the norm according to the lads searches.
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>> the entire dash assembly and half the rest of the interior stripping it must have
>> been the first part fitted at manufacture stage, quite ridiculous.
Actually, the dash and interior are usually the last parts to be fitted, because that's where there's the most variation in customer spec. Before this stage, the preassembled drivetrain including engine, gearbox, most of the cooling system and the front suspension is built into the car. The drivetrain is basically a single module supplied to the assembly line and built into the car from underneath. The whole thing has to be designed to be as easy and quick to assemble as possible in order to keep costs down in a very cut-throat market.
Really impressive is the robot assembly method used by Mercedes to mount the dash in the C-Class. The dash itself is a very substantial and heavy piece of moulded plastic and fits through the door opening with millimetres to spare. The robot picks up the dash moulding, fits it in place, adjusts it to within the required tolerance and secures it with 4 bolts - all in 8 seconds.
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The Mark 2 Escorts owned by me and family were always poor starters in the cold and damp. There used to be some stuff in a spray can you could buy to squirt into the air intake to assist the engine firing. The most reliable way though was to warm the spark plugs in the oven beforehad. I learned this ancient trick from my Dad who, after 3 problem free VW Beetles, went patriotic in the mid 70s with Escorts, Minis and Maxis and learned the true value of AA membership.
Old cars were also only theoretically easier to work on. Inevitably after 3 years or so, a lot of the screws and bolts had rusted themselves into their fixings and snapped off at the first sight of a spanner. Those weekends in the early 80s spent in the rain trying to ensure the useless piece of junk would make it through a working week really used to fly by. There were exceptions though. My early model Passat was incredibly reliable but there was a massive difference in the quality of components used by VW compared to those used by Ford and BL.
Late 80s cars were better, but, with a few exceptions (German and Japanese), I think the era of truly reliable, low(er) maintenance and longer lived cars probably started around the early 90s around the time of the original Mondeo.
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Someone told me a trick for cold starting which used to work with manual-choke Fords (I don't think it was in the handbook - that would have been too easy):
1 Push accelerator down to floor, then release.
2 Pull choke full out
3 Start engine without touching acelerator again.
With automatic chokes and then fuel injection you didn't touch the accelerator at all.
It didn't work with carburetted Vauxhalls - nothing did.
SU carburettors were far less fussy and unless their ignition was damp BL cars, whatever their other failings, were good starters hot or cold.
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Are you kidding? In 3 years my car has never failed to start within a second of turning the key. It's never broken down. It's never made funny noises. The worst thing that's happened was a water leak into the cabin which set the fire alarm off. It's a phenomenally complicated bit of kit, yet, incredibly reliable.
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>> SU carburettors were far less fussy and unless their ignition was damp BL cars, whatever
>> their other failings, were good starters hot or cold.
Well the Maxis my Dad owned were terrible starters in damp weather. Despite the unreliability of the first one, my Dad went on and bought a second as he was convinced the first one was just an exception. That patriotism thing again. Ok, the second had the added complexity of twin SUs as it was the high performance HL version with a staggering 90 bhp and refinements such as an electric screen washer and cloth seats. I learned to drive in that car, which is why I know how to double declutch.
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>> had the added complexity of twin SUs as it was the high performance HL version
You should have had a Maestro where they added electronics to the SU. Now that really screwed it up.
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>>The most reliable way though was to warm the spark plugs in the oven beforehand
Arrives at the office "Sorry I'm late, car was a pig to start this morning - just had to warm up the oven and stick the plugs in there to dry out - still, beats the bus" :-)
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I had a white MG Maestro for a while. Red seatbelts and it used to talk to you. I think that had fuel injection though. Went surprisingly well anyway. Didn't have it long.
It was a loaner while my Cortina was re-sprayed and had new windows fitted. It had got a bit close to an explosion and all the windows while unbroken were sort of sandblasted opaque. The paint was full of tiny particles of grit and the insurance decided to re-paint it. Don't know whether it maybe did it the power of good. I checked the reg plate recently and apparently it's still going about. Old "T" reg, whats that, '79 or '80 I guess ?
I was a bit closer to the bang which is why I'm a bit mutton on my left side. Handy enough if you have a nervous passenger in a right hand drive though.
Avant's right about the trick for starting old Fords by the way. Pretty reliable method actually. I remember a conference at the Imperial Hotel in Blackpool. Same place they used to have Conservative Party conferences. Anyway, ours was a company thing and everyone had Cortinas. Lined up like teeth in the car park for three days in January on the sea front in Blackpool. Most of them wouldn't start after that. I must have known the trick by then because mine did.
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>> I had a white MG Maestro for a while. Red seatbelts and it used to
>> talk to you. I think that had fuel injection though. Went surprisingly well anyway. Didn't
>> have it long.
Early ones had a twin carb set up. Later ones had Lucas Prince of Darkness injection.
I remember driving one and finding the voice entertaining. This was the early 80s. I remember my mates opening the doors while I was driving just to here the robotised female say "Door open". I'm sure it got very irritating after a while as the sensors started to fail.
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How did you get caught near an explosion Humph... not an everyday thing!
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Longish story Fenlander. Maybe I'll write a thread about it one day. Short version though involved a hotel, a leaking gas main and a spark. Nasty business.
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>>>a leaking gas main and a spark.
I sort of had a sixth sense it might be. Spent a good few years rushing out in the early hours during winter as 1st call to such situations.
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Not wishing to trivialise such matters my Missus blew up last week. BOOM! and off she went.
Nothing to do with Gas, but she mentioned something about a Pub! Can't remember what now. Never mind eh!
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>>In the good old days the clutch was a 90 minute job
Not on land-crabs.
Two of mine bore the marks of 4"x2" on the wings supporting the engine while I did the job. Usually over a week of evenings after work.
Now Maxis were a doddle.
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The biggest diference I have found in recent years is down to quality control during manufacture and assembly. Jump from one car today into another of the same make and model and you could not tell the difference between them. Going back to the days when I worked for a local authority every one of the fleet of Marina vans we had felt completely different to the others, speeds and economy varied wildly, some drunk oil and others didn't, the heaters all had different outputs and no two clutches were ever the same.
In a later life I experienced the same with Metros, Fiestas and Escorts on driving schools. You dreaded having to change cars because they were all so different the pupils might as well have gone from a Transit to a mini and initial lessons in the replacement car were a nightmare. One of the few things going for the Metros was the consistancy of breakdowns, with each new batch all the same things fell off each car (generally within the first week).
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>> >> I can change a headlamp bulb in my Mondeo in the time it takes to brew a cuppa.
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>> Good 'ol Mondeo. You can't beat 'em.
>>
Obviously not a Mk II. Mine requires the grill off, headlamp unit removed etc.
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Actually it's a Mk3. Likewise you have to remove the rad grille. Two clips, about 10 seconds. Then you pull two sliders out to release the headlamp unit. Another 10 seconds max. Change the bulb and reverse the process. Whole thing takes a a couple of minutes.
Last edited by: Humph D'bout on Fri 24 Sep 10 at 07:39
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Modern cars are superb. The just keep getting better and better ~ more reliable and more durable and requiring less maintenance. I can remember when the life of an engine was about 30,000 miles, there were 30 grease nipples which needed new grease every 3000 miles, spark plugs needed attention every 500 miles, and renewal at 1000 miles, engine starting was hit and miss, tbe bodywork seriously rusted in less then 3 years, cross-ply tyres had dangerously poor road holding, etc etc. As good as it is, I'm seriously wondering how much behind the times my 7 year old Focus is.
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Modern Cars are a disaster - spamcan61
