Not sure if this just motoring or if there is an on-going XR thread..
Looks like XR have turned their attention to the roads and today have hit various parts of the M25, where I am they've closed the Swanley and Godstone junctions..
Trying to get hold of my daughter who has been called into work at Dartford hospital and uses the M25 and comes off at J2.
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Their internal target is arrest numbers. Funding depends upon it. When there is additional funding then it is awarded to the branch with the most arrests.
Most of those that I know/encounter are merely jumping on a bandwagon and love the idea of being radical protestors and the actual problem of Climate Change isn't all that important.
No doubt some of them are genuine and dedicated, but my experience says that most are not.
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>> Most of those that I know/encounter are merely jumping on a bandwagon and love the
>> idea of being radical protestors and the actual problem of Climate Change isn't all that
>> important.
I'm led to believe quite a few are retired and quite like the social side of it all. Have a chat and a meet up, meet new people.getting arrested gives them bonus points in the creditablilty stakes.
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>I'm led to believe quite a few are retired and quite like the social side of it all.
Hey that's a good idea. What about a C4P chapter? Anyone got a mobile shed with a stove for making the tea? And some deckchairs?
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Anyone got a mobile shed
>> with a stove for making the tea? And some deckchairs?
>>
Zero and Brompt are shed draggers, they can make the brews and bacon butties. LL can sort the beers out, some sort of mobile pub would be ideal. Sorted, beats working in a charity shop I suppose.
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>> Hey that's a good idea. What about a C4P chapter? Anyone got a mobile shed
>> with a stove for making the tea? And some deckchairs?
Yup, bacon sarnies, tea, coffee, I'm up for it. cash only please.
Edit, and no you cant use my toilet.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 13 Sep 21 at 20:41
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>> Edit, and no you cant use my toilet.
If we could park near a Wetherspoons, that would be perfect.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 13 Sep 21 at 20:41
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>> If we could park near a Wetherspoons, that would be perfect.
It would have to be the one at Beaconsfield Services then. You go out and lay on the M40, we'll join you later.
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Press report here:
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9984953/Motorists-clash-Insulate-Britain-climate-activists-blocking-M25.html
Apparently a splinter group so not sure it's got the formal backing of XR.
It's the Mail so has their usual skew but presume, in absence of contrary evidence, that facts as to location etc are correct.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 13 Sep 21 at 10:47
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This group are apparently protesting at the lack of support and funding for house insulation - a significant component of the climate change agenda.
As it happens I agree with their climate concerns.
The government appear to do little or nothing to improve matters by strengthening buildng regulations etc. Subsidies to improve energy efficiency of existing housing is very limited - but it is questionable whether the taxpayer or the owner should foot the bill.
The only way to get noticed is to cause problems. Demonstrations which don't register with the public or media are pointless - they make zero difference to anything.
So we have a choice - police intrusive demonstrations with a light touch and limited punishment for protesters, or go down a "Chinese" route - tear gas, truncheons and prison sentences.
The former annoys those who are inconvenienced, but reflects current policy. The latter just isn't very "British". Which is right probably depends on personal circumstance.
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>> The former annoys those who are inconvenienced, but reflects current policy. The latter just isn't
>> very "British". Which is right probably depends on personal circumstance.
It does though represent the way the government is tacking with the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill now going to the Lords.
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Miss Z is / was on a RCofS medical course in the home counties today (Monday 13th) and tomorrow.
She was going to drive up this morning but came home from a 14 hour on-call session at the hospital totally exhausted, getting home at 21:40ish on Sunday. She would have had to get up at 4AM, leaving at 5AM ish to get to the course for an 8AM prompt start.
So I booked her a hotel for Sunday night and drove her there (rather than risk tired driving).
4 hour round trip (the benefit of no rush hour traffic) and home at 2AM. I moaned about the trip and cost of the hotel but glad I did that as the course was £750 and no refunds and they are as rare as hens teeth.
(I did tell her she has missed a trick by not booking one in the more exotic locations such as Singapore or Dubai. She said if Covid wasn't an issue she would have.)
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>> So I booked her a hotel for Sunday night and drove her there (rather than
>> risk tired driving).
>>
>> 4 hour round trip (the benefit of no rush hour traffic) and home at 2AM.
I've driven myself late at night from the NW to 'down South' for meetings only to find all sorts of overnight road closures!
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>> I've driven myself late at night from the NW to 'down South' for meetings only
>> to find all sorts of overnight road closures!
>>
Same here when choosing to drive to the northern cities for work, I usually travel by night and avoid traffic but get the cones.
But on this occasion I did check and there were no holdups identified (though traffic data isn't always 100%).
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The Evening Standard reports a four-car crash at blocked Junction 5.
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Sorry, that's junction 9.
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Traffic England says:-
Location The M25 anticlockwise between junctions J10 and J9
Reason Road traffic collision
Status Currently Active
Time To Clear The event is expected to clear between 16:30 and 16:45 on 15 September 2021
Return To Normal Normal traffic conditions are expected between 17:30 and 17:45 on 15 September 2021
Delay There are currently delays of 30 minutes against expected traffic
Previous Reason Following an earlier accident
Lanes Closed
Lane 1 ClosedLane 2 ClosedLane 3 RunningLane 4 Running
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Just found out that the J10 protest caused traffic to come to a halt, causing a multiple. Turns out a friend of Mrs Z ( A nurse) was injured in the accident, and is now in an induced come with bad neck and spine injuries.
I sincerely hope that some of the protestors get charged with causing GBH or similar.
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>> I sincerely hope that some of the protestors get charged with causing GBH or similar.
I seriously hope your wife's friend is able to recover without life changing consequences.
Question that needs to be asked though is would the outcome have been different if the traffic halt was for the usual M25 reasons; bottlenecks etc.
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>Question that needs to be asked though is would the outcome have been different if the traffic > halt was for the usual M25 reasons; bottlenecks etc.
But it wasn't - However if someone behaved in a dangerous manner with on a motorway causing serious injury they would be charged and jailed. So whats the question?
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>> But it wasn't - However if someone behaved in a dangerous manner with on a
>> motorway causing serious injury they would be charged and jailed. So whats the question?
The question is whether there was a direct and proximate link between the protestors actions and the accident?
In the previous protests they blocked a junction which then caused the motorway and/or the associated feeder road to grind to a halt. If somebody then drove into the back of the queue then it'll be difficult to pin it on the protestors; just another lack of observation/failure to maintain stopping distances.
If they were chucking stuff off overbridges then obviously it's different.
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The basic proposition in the article is that climate change is due to increased emissions from China which may now exceed those of all western nations aggregated.
Reality is that a large parge of Chinese carbon emissions provide the west with consumer products they no longer manufacture as China is cheaper.
It seems largely hypocritical to blame China for failing to engage in CO2 reduction to prevent climate change - the west needs to moderate its consumption.
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>> It seems largely hypocritical to blame China for failing to engage in CO2 reduction to
>> prevent climate change - the west needs to moderate its consumption.
>>
I don't think it's hypocritical to point out, we all could be doing more. The basis of the article seems to anyway, that certain groups are happy to look the other way when it comes to protesting. They also share a realpolitik with many govs around the world that they'd prefer to pretend doesn't exist.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 20 Sep 21 at 02:43
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This morning they have started to run out into moving traffic on the motorway at J10!!
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Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
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Of course I’m not suggesting that anyone does this deliberately but what would the consequences be to the driver if one was hit!?
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>> Of course I’m not suggesting that anyone does this deliberately but what would the consequences
>> be to the driver if one was hit!?
Depending on the level of injury there would inevitably be police inquiries. If the protestor was killed or suffered life changing (or even just 'serious' injuries) then those would be full scale with the possibility of questions under caution or arrest.
Essentially I think the police would treat it in the same way as any pedestrian fatality. Provided the driver was paying attention and did everything they could to avoid collision then I believe they'd not be charged.
Not on the qv, distracted by phone etc then charges might well follow.
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>>Provided the driver was paying attention and did everything they could to avoid collision then I believe they'd not be charged
Howls about if someone ploughed into the clowns and said he was distracted at the time by a wasp in the cab, or a sneezing fit.
Shirley that couldn't be proved one way or t'other
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Someone on the news today suggested that they were equivalent to the Suffragette movement.
Illegal at the time and since accepted to chance made a positive change to society.
I understand the concept but am too sleep deprived at the moment to analyse the notion on any depth.
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If energy costs continue increasing as they are the protests will be unnecessary.
We will all be motivated to reduce our own energy consumption either through changed behaviours or insuating our homes properly.
Amazing how the market can change attitudes far quicker than protest. I'm now looking at PV on the roof and battery back up which has suddenly become very viable. A lesson to be learned to hasten the transition to EVs?
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I had the opportunity to add batteries late last year when I had to have my PV invertor replaced. I didn't bother and am still not really regretting it, as the spend is not inconsiderable so it took quite a few years to recover your outlay. This may become more viable if electricity remains expensive on a permanent basis, but I somehow doubt it will.
I'm doing fine from PV but that is more to do with the government grants than using my generated power. I only have a modest array and the best I have ever seen in a day is below 20 kWh and this year (for example) I've only exceeded 10 on 102 days, which means less than 10 on 161 days. With (next to) no govt grant it would seem to not be a very efficient use of cash to me.
We are already at the point where you can use your EV as a battery to run your house or feed into the grid (if you have the right car/EVSE) which I suppose reduces the capital outlay if you were getting an EV anyway.
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Over the last 15 years the cost of PV has fallen hugely, along with government feed in tariffs. The net effect has always been a payback period of 12-20 years.
This always seemed a less than attractive option - the returns were relatively modest, capital outlay material, no certainty that I would stay in the same house long enough to get a payback, and no confidence that if the house were sold it would be perceived as a benefit to the buyer.
It now seems that PV systems could be installed for £5-7k - rather less than the £20k it may have cost a decade ago. Batteries now seems relatively affordable - possibly an additional £3-10k depending on capacity. It would not make sense (to me) to spend £25-30k on an EV just to use its battery as a back-up - although it would represent cheap charging!
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My generation runs at about 2800 units a year.
My FIT payment is currently about £1600 a year, tax free and index linked, for 25 years from date of installation (2012).
Additionally I get (currently) 3.59p for each unit I generate, which is a deemed 50% of overall generation, so my annual generation runs at about 2750 units a year (about £400 at today's costs?).
If I managed to use all of them that'd be good but I don't as I have no cunning devices to divert excess to a store when I am producing lots. Even if I did, the saving wouldn't be that great, as the the autumn/winter period can be a bit bleak, when you would really have more demand for electricity. I think batteries still take a bit of man-maths to cost-justify.
But we do quite well just judging the optimum time for dishwashers, washing machines etc without too much effort. A lot of money can be saved just by recognising where your energy is going and doing something about it.
The EV spend could not only give you a battery (in the not too distant future) but also considerably cheaper (and more climate friendly!) motoring - my neighbour went north in his new-ish eNiro the other week and said he reckoned his fuel cost, even at expensive services prices, was about 1/3rd the petrol cost. I could charge the recently-sold Ampera for my 40 summer electric miles for about 80p or less. Servicing costs are lower too. (MG are selling me a service plan for £12.xx a month). (Also the Ampera only cost me £1500 over 4 years - no heavy depreciation!!).
Once more Octopus story - their now massively expensive Agile tariff also has an export tariff and the other day they were paying you just over £2 for each unit exported. That was exceptional but when the import tariff was cheaper there were many times where people charging their batteries on the overnight cheap half hours and selling it back in the daytime at a profit. All automated of course.
The reason PV system costs fell so far was entirely the reductions in government grant. You can see it now, if you get a quote for a heat pump system the quote will conveniently soak up the whole government grant - and as and when that drops, so will the costs of a new system.
btw my payback time for the solar panels was just about 8 years, even with the replacement inverter cost -which was slightly better that the installers quoted.
Last edited by: smokie on Wed 22 Sep 21 at 09:36
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I wonder how the numbers would work if they weren't subsidied by the government? I can't say it leaves me with a warm fuzzy feeling that it's the best use of government money.
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>> I wonder how the numbers would work if they weren't subsidied by the government? I
>> can't say it leaves me with a warm fuzzy feeling that it's the best use
>> of government money.
AIUI it's not just government money but money that is, at least in part, raised by a 'green levy' on bills. In other words the tax free income from the feed in tariff is in part paid for by those struggling to keep their pre-pay meter fed.
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Yeah there's that as well, not the best of situations is it.
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The burden falls on those who pay tax - whether PAYE, NI, VAT, fuel duty, RFL or energy green surcharges.
If the government wants to promote behaviour changes beyond those which are influenced by simple market pressures it has limited choices - eg:
- legislation - eg: congestion charges, banning gas central heating, building regs
- subsidies - eg: electric cars, feed in tariffs, loft insulation
- taxes - eg: air passenger duty, no VAT on rail fares
Sometimes it is a mix of all three. That the government wanted to encourage installation of photo voltaic generation before it was economically viable was a policy choice. Without providing the stimulus of feed in tariffs the transition may never have started.
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Now they've hit the Port of Dover!
Climbing on HGV and causing the port to grind to a halt.
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>> Now they've hit the Port of Dover!
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>> Climbing on HGV and causing the port to grind to a halt.
>>
>>
>>
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-58676610
Seems they've been moved on.
Where to next? Another motorway or port?
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Just hitting the M4, gluing themselves to the road.
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Well if the weather there is anything like here they’ll be cold, wet and miserable in no time and be happy to get back into an inadequately insulated house ;)
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>> Just hitting the M4, gluing themselves to the road.
What the hell with? no glue is going to stick to wet greasy tarmac.
Except roadkill maybe.
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Apparently a shed load of superglue, the police now have a specialised 'de-bonding' team that are deployed.
Also now using D locks around their necks to chain themselves to each other.
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>> Also now using D locks around their necks to chain themselves to each other.
I wonder if the BIBs are tempted to put some superglue in those locks, after they've unstuck them from the road of course.
;>)
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>> Also now using D locks around their necks
Angle grinder will get them off.
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>> AIUI it's not just government money but money that is, at least in part, raised
>> by a 'green levy' on bills. In other words the tax free income from the
>> feed in tariff is in part paid for by those struggling to keep their pre-pay
>> meter fed.
Some sort of subsidy was no doubt necessary to establish the industry and take up, but the scheme could have been designed to transfer money from poor people to well-off ones.
None of this is very joined up. They choose a target and build an incentive around it, and people set up an industry to harvest incentives. Every time.
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There is a law of unintended consequences, but I don't think the feed in tariff is an example.
The proposition - encouraging green energy - is sound (IMHO).
Historically it was uneconomic to install solar and wind - neither industry nor the public would do it. Only other option is for government to invest. Both need taxpayer funds.
Expecting the economically marginal to invest in green energy directly is naive. They have far greater priorities than reduced energy bills with a payback period of 10-20 years.
To stimulate low carbon generation when it makes no financial sense needs a subsidy. The only question is how the costs are covered.
As all taxation (bar the BBC licence fee) goes into a big pot in the Treasury, the question is "what will best promote rapid and cost effective transition to green energy?"
Either a subsidy is needed or the government installs its own PV and wind turbines. Feed in tariffs have the benefit they very directly recognise the contribution made to generation from green sources. It is not some kind of conspiracy to transfer money from the less to the better off.
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Sit down protest in the road started on both sides of the Blackwall Tunnel.
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-58896047
One of the protestors is going to get seriously hurt very soon, and of course the rest will bleat more should have been done to protect them
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I'm sure it will happen at some point, especially as it seems to be the same few places they are protesting in. Wouldn't surprise me if there ends up being some sort of counter protest group that take it on themselves to move them on.
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>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-58896047
>>
>> One of the protestors is going to get seriously hurt very soon, and of course
>> the rest will bleat more should have been done to protect them
If they get knocked down then the usual investigations etc apply.
If road users turn nasty then that's straightforward assault or maybe dangerous driving.
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>>
>> If they get knocked down then the usual investigations etc apply.
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>> If road users turn nasty then that's straightforward assault or maybe dangerous driving.
>>
My fear is that one of the protesters steps out in front of a HGV, not realising that the stopping distance for these things is measured in 10s of meters and gets terminally squished, which would be devastating for everyone involved.
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Given that it can't be hard for the public to identify at least some of them, and to find where they live, I'm surprised they aren't discovering things like a transit parked across their driveways, people preventing access to their homes, bins, the street, being followed and stopping them getting into shops or generally interacting smoothly with the outside world. Nicely.
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>> Given that it can't be hard for the public to identify at least some of
>> them, and to find where they live, I'm surprised they aren't discovering things like a
>> transit parked across their driveways, people preventing access to their homes, bins, the street, being
>> followed and stopping them getting into shops or generally interacting smoothly with the outside world.
>> Nicely.
Isolate the Insulators?
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If those twarts sat down in front of my vehicle and seriously inconvenienced me, then should I find out where they lived, and if fairly local I would create all manner of inconvenience for them.
I’m surprised a motorist hasn’t beaten the living sheet out of one of them given some of the road rage episodes in our country.
Last edited by: legacylad on Thu 14 Oct 21 at 08:36
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We are getting into Moral Maze territory. What would the counter protestors say? “I support the principle of insulation/environmental protection but not your stopping people going about their business. So I will stop you going about yours.”
Hmm a bit like the protestors generating pollution from blocking roads.
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Moral question for our legal eagly.
If someone laid down in front of my car, superglueing themselves to the road and obstructing my lawful freedoms, and I removed them with minimum force unfortunately leaving the skin from their fingers on the road, would that be assault?
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It would be if you used a kukri and left their hand there
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>> It would be if you used a kukri and left their hand there
I'm not sure a Gurkha weapon fits the "minimum force" criteria.
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Dunno.
One swipe should do it
You can borrow it if you like..I inherited it from my uncle who fought in the ‘Forgotten Fourteenth’ under L-G William Slim and remained a member of the Burma Star Association until his sad demise from lung problems picked up in the jungles.
As an aside he always told me that the Japanese greatest fear was being captured by one of the African divisions. Big fearsome strong lads who didn’t pussyfoot around and for whom he had the utmost respect.
Last edited by: legacylad on Thu 14 Oct 21 at 09:24
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>> >> It would be if you used a kukri and left their hand there
>>
>> I'm not sure a Gurkha weapon fits the "minimum force" criteria.
Not sure about minimum force in this scenario.
Sure that applies if removing them from your own property but as a citizens response to obstructing the highway?
And then of course there's Mrs "I've got to get Jonny to School" and her Rangey:
www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/oct/19/video-shows-range-rover-pushing-insulate-britain-activist-at-sit-in
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That's a very dangerous game to play. One slip of the clutch or jerk on the accelerator and you could have a very badly injured or even dead protestor on your hands and a very long prison sentence to go with it.
I am surprised she hasn't been charged with dangerous driving.
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>> That's a very dangerous game to play. One slip of the clutch or jerk on
>> the accelerator and you could have a very badly injured or even dead protestor on
>> your hands and a very long prison sentence to go with it.
>>
>> I am surprised she hasn't been charged with dangerous driving.
If you deliberately put yourself in harms way, you shouldn't be surprised when you get harmed.
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>> If you deliberately put yourself in harms way, you shouldn't be surprised when you get
>> harmed.
That doesn't mean no offence is committed.
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>>
>> If you deliberately put yourself in harms way, you shouldn't be surprised when you get
>> harmed.
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I don't disagree with you Z. If you jump out in front of a car (play chicken) then expect to be knocked down.
If you are sitting there, and the car stops, the driver gets out to investigate, then gets back in and does that, then it's a different story, she drove on knowing someone was in the way.
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Inevitable, I'm sure it won't be the last time something similar happens.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 19 Oct 21 at 20:33
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>> We are getting into Moral Maze territory. What would the counter protestors say? “I support
>> the principle of insulation/environmental protection but not your stopping people going about their business. So
>> I will stop you going about yours.”
>> Hmm a bit like the protestors generating pollution from blocking roads.
>>
I don't think it's that complex, the people doing the dragging won't be thinking anything beyond, get out of the e***** road.
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I wonder how the protestors would feel if members of the public sat in front of their cars, preventing them getting to a protest?
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>> I wonder how the protestors would feel if members of the public sat in front
>> of their cars, preventing them getting to a protest?
>>
You mean they don't all travel there by public transport?
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Looks like they're moving North.... now on the M56.
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M25 - closed?? - No FM2R
