| Non-motoring > Afghanistan | Miscellaneous |
| Thread Author: sooty123 | Replies: 116 |
|
New Sat 14 Aug 21 20:40
Afghanistan - sooty123
|
|
Since we've not had a thread on this, sad in a way but probably inevitable. I can't help but think all that effort, money and blood it must have been worth it, but I don't know. I hope so. www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-58213848 |
|
New Sat 14 Aug 21 21:22
Afghanistan - legacylad
|
|
I’ve been discussing this with my American friends. Looks like the country is en route to the Dark Ages... |
|
New Sat 14 Aug 21 21:38
Afghanistan - Zero
|
|
>> Since we've not had a thread on this, sad in a way but probably inevitable. >> I can't help but think all that effort, money and blood it must have been >> worth it, but I don't know. I hope so. No, its never been worth it, Not in 1839–42; 1878–80, 1919, 2001 -2014 for the british, 2001 - 2021 for the yanks, 1979 to 1989 for the Russians, and greeks, mughls, Rashidun Caliphate, mongols, and Sikhs. See the pattern? No-one has learned a bludie thing from history. There was absolutely no just cause or reason to go bowling in there in 2001, the place is of no value, and if it causes trouble it should just be isolated rather than shed lives Last edited by: Zero on Sat 14 Aug 21 at 21:39
|
|
New Sat 14 Aug 21 22:42
Afghanistan - R.P.
|
| Chinese are next to have a go. They have itchy trigger fingers at the moment. |
|
New Sat 14 Aug 21 23:07
Afghanistan - Zero
|
|
>> Chinese are next to have a go. They have itchy trigger fingers at the moment. >> >> Fine, they can waste 10 years and throw a few thousand lives away for no good reason, |
|
New Sun 15 Aug 21 01:10
Afghanistan - Lygonos
|
|
The country is apparently hoaching with minerals. Never likely to be exploited without a stable government - China would likely love to help the Afghans build a decent road infrastructure for a slice of the goodies, but the Taliban are not likely to let the Chinese away with their Uighur camps. |
|
New Sun 15 Aug 21 01:15
Afghanistan - zippy
|
|
>> The country is but >> the Taliban are not likely to let the Chinese away with their Uighur camps. >> Show them enough money to turn a blind eye and be amazed at the diplomatic breakthrough. |
|
New Sun 15 Aug 21 01:42
Afghanistan - No FM2R
|
|
>>Show them enough money to turn a blind eye and be amazed at the diplomatic breakthrough. Nope. One group will take the money, agree to end hostilities, only to disappear and be replaced by a different yet identical group which had made no such agreement. And repeat. |
|
New Sun 15 Aug 21 06:14
Afghanistan - sooty123
|
|
> Nope. >> >> One group will take the money, agree to end hostilities, only to disappear and be >> replaced by a different yet identical group which had made no such agreement. >> >> And repeat. >> I wouldn't be so sure that it doesn't work, of course it won't work all of the time. But some governments were quite successful in keeping them quiet in return for money. |
|
New Sun 15 Aug 21 01:44
Afghanistan - No FM2R
|
|
>>I can't help but think all that effort, money and blood it must have been worth it I can't see how it could have been worth it. Other than for political statements and ego stroking ack in the source countries. There is no point in trying to force your own version of peace upon an area that has no interest in it. Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 15 Aug 21 at 01:44
|
|
New Sun 15 Aug 21 06:24
Afghanistan - sooty123
|
|
>> >>I can't help but think all that effort, money and blood it must have been >> worth it >> >> I can't see how it could have been worth it. Other than for political statements >> and ego stroking ack in the source countries. >> Maybe you're right, but it's been the background of my career, been there, known people go and not come back. I can't help but think it must have been for some good, but perhaps it's naive or even selfish way of thinking of it, I don't know. Any road, (apparently) the Iranians are up next. Let's see what they make of it all. Now and through history there's plenty of people that think involving themselves in afghan is worth it. |
|
New Sun 15 Aug 21 07:58
Afghanistan - Zero
|
|
>> Any road, (apparently) the Iranians are up next. Let's see what they make of it >> all. Now and through history there's plenty of people that think involving themselves in afghan >> is worth it. And all of them found out it isn't. Which at the end of the day, just makes the place more and more lawless, the more invasions, the more failures. just gives the tribes within more relevance to themselves. |
|
New Sun 15 Aug 21 08:17
Afghanistan - Zero
|
|
>> >> Maybe you're right, but it's been the background of my career, been there, known people >> go and not come back. I can't help but think it must have been for >> some good, but perhaps it's naive or even selfish way of thinking of it, I >> don't know. Sooty I hate to denigrate your career and efforts, I think I am not, but at the end of the day with the exception of WW2, there has been no satisfactory long term conclusion to any military intervention by western powers anywhere in the world in the last 100 years. The majority of cases chaos, deprivation, lawlessness and power vacuums and are all we - the west - have left behind. Long term strategic objectives have never been achieved. Mind you thats probably because there have never been any long term strategic objectives. America in particular seems to think that if you get rid of someone or something you dont want, a pro western democracy will automatically spring into place. I mean how can it not? Alas where the Yanks go we inevitably go in to assist |
|
New Sun 15 Aug 21 08:23
Afghanistan - legacylad
|
|
Somewhere I’ve a copy of ‘A short walk in the Hindu Kush’ by Eric Newby. About an amateur expedition to climb a peak in an Afghanistan mountain range back in the 50’s I think. Not read it for years. |
|
New Sun 15 Aug 21 08:57
Afghanistan - sooty123
|
|
I suppose defining 'satisfactory long term conclusion' is a good start. I'm not talking about afghan, but more generally. |
|
New Sun 15 Aug 21 13:05
Afghanistan - Terry
|
|
The intervention of the West (US,UK, NATO etc) into the Islamic world (Middle East, North Africa, etc) has been little short of disastrous. In no way could it be counted a success: - Iraq successfully removed from Kuwait, but the military stopped well before Baghdad - Iraq invaded for a second time on the basis of a dodgy dossier - Aghanistan effectively invaded to get Osama Bin Laden - Arab Spring encouraged - Libya and Syria become failed states - Taliban not successfully defeated, Islamic State quiescent now - but for how long This is not the fault of the military and the guys on the ground who I believe did their best. It is a complete political failure and evidences an absence of any real strategy. 20 years in Afghanistan - and much of the last 10-15 spent trying to set up a decent infrastructure (health, water, sewage, education), training and equipping an Afghan army, setting up political structures. The Taliban have within a couple of weeks taken back the entire country with scarcely a shot fired or any resistance. I can only come to two conclusions: - the efforts of the West were woeful and Afghanistan remained a failed state, or - imposing western values on those with very different cultural expectation was flawedor naive |
|
New Sun 15 Aug 21 13:36
Afghanistan - Duncan
|
|
I think my esteemed forum associate had it just about spot on on Saturday when he wrote:- "No, its never been worth it, Not in 1839–42; 1878–80, 1919, 2001 -2014 for the british, 2001 - 2021 for the yanks, 1979 to 1989 for the Russians, and greeks, mughls, Rashidun Caliphate, mongols, and Sikhs." When will we ever learn (in fact the man in the street has learnt, but governments haven't) that our standards are not necessarily the standards of the rest of the world, and we should keep our noses (generally speaking, not always, of course) out of other countries affairs. |
|
New Sun 15 Aug 21 14:18
Afghanistan - sooty123
|
|
and we should keep our noses (generally speaking, not always, of course) out of >> other countries affairs. >> Problem is you never *really* know until after the event. There's isn't some list of invade/don't invade, it's all very subjective. |
|
New Sun 15 Aug 21 15:08
Afghanistan - Zero
|
|
>> and we should keep our noses (generally speaking, not always, of course) out of >> >> other countries affairs. >> >> >> >> Problem is you never *really* know until after the event. There's isn't some list of >> invade/don't invade, it's all very subjective. Of course you do and of course there is a list. It is by and large Don't invade, keep your nose out, its nothing to do with us. Thats the list. |
|
New Sun 15 Aug 21 14:16
Afghanistan - sooty123
|
|
>> The intervention of the West (US,UK, NATO etc) into the Islamic world (Middle East, North >> Africa, etc) has been little short of disastrous. In no way could it be counted >> a success: >> >> - Iraq successfully removed from Kuwait, but the military stopped well before Baghdad >> - Iraq invaded for a second time on the basis of a dodgy dossier >> - Aghanistan effectively invaded to get Osama Bin Laden >> - Arab Spring encouraged - Libya and Syria become failed states >> - Taliban not successfully defeated, Islamic State quiescent now - but for how long There are of course, lesser known Operations that were successful or more so, Dhofar Campaign springs to mind as does Op vantage, the no fly zones. There were others of course that met their aim, but the above ones are only what I can remember off the top of my head, I'm not minded to trawl online. Although I'm sure others will disagree. |
|
New Sun 15 Aug 21 15:16
Afghanistan - Zero
|
|
>> There are of course, lesser known Operations that were successful or more so, Dhofar Campaign >> springs to mind Putting a despot in charge leading to a country with few human rights. Improving now of course - time will tell. The british vs communists in Malaysia, is probably the only military intervention abroad that has had a satisfactory long term solution, because a serious hearts and minds and stability long term strategy was sought. (Ok along with some very nasty Military tactics against a very nasty foe) |
|
New Sun 15 Aug 21 15:20
Afghanistan - martin aston
|
|
The BBC are reporting that the Taliban are preparing for a peaceful transfer of power. Peaceful? Yeah right. Lets hope our remaining people get out ASAP. |
|
New Sun 15 Aug 21 15:26
Afghanistan - sooty123
|
|
www.amazon.co.uk/Empire-Secrets-British-Intelligence-Twilight-ebook/dp/B009N7J5LG/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=british+empire+secret+service&qid=1629037514&s=books&sr=1-4 Here's a good read for those that want to learn more about that period. Many examples repeat in both more successful operations and less successful ones. It's quite a fine line. Last edited by: sooty123 on Sun 15 Aug 21 at 15:28
|
|
New Sun 15 Aug 21 15:35
Afghanistan - sooty123
|
| I believe SKY are reporting gunfire on the outskirts of Kabul right now. Repat flights are starting as soon as practically possible. |
|
New Sun 15 Aug 21 19:00
Afghanistan - zippy
|
|
>>Training the Afghan army. How? To be chocolate teapots? How can an irregular army defeat a properly constituted, well equipped army in a matter of days, unless they were neither well trained, well equipped or well selected? I'm truly sad and fearful for any person that remains there that is female, homosexual or just different to the norms expected by a group that will rule with an iron fist and will show no compassion. |
|
New Sun 15 Aug 21 19:12
Afghanistan - Zero
|
|
>> >>Training the Afghan army. >> >> How? To be chocolate teapots? >> >> How can an irregular army defeat a properly constituted, well equipped army in a matter >> of days, unless they were neither well trained, well equipped or well selected? They were male, and they were Afghani, and quite approve of the idea of subjugating women** so they just switched sides and joined the Taliban*. *who dont really exist as such, its just a label to enable the west to identify a common foe. The Warlords will end up fighting and squabbling with each other in 6 months or so, as they have always done. ** Strangely I dont think Incel will catch on out there as a terrorist movement. Last edited by: Zero on Sun 15 Aug 21 at 19:13
|
|
New Sun 15 Aug 21 19:34
Afghanistan - Netsur
|
|
For the West, the way we treat sections of society that do not conform to the norm, shows how advanced and caring we are. This has not always been the case, but in the last 50 years we have managed to start to treat women, LGBT, Blacks, Asians etc with the same level of respect that white men have treated each other. It is not perfect but unless you are part of an extreme Asian or Ultra-orthodox Jewish family, the women will generally marry when they want to marry and to whom they wish to marry (I include arranged introductions - not arranged marriages - in this definition of women having the right to decide who and when they marry. Many of my co-religionist acquaintances and friends were introduced to each other and in very few cases did they marry the first person they were introduced to). Applying the same standards to other parts of the world, especially those dominated by an Islam which is more cultural in observance that actually in conformity to the Koran, is fraught with difficulty. I know that we think that the way Afghan women will be treated by the Taliban is appalling (and it is), but in reality, the way to stop it, is not to invade yet again, but to work at the edges and try to get the slightly more moderate Islamic countries to change their society - just as we have had to change ours. Despite some rather awful acts by MBS in Saudi, at least women there are starting to have more freedom. That change will expand into the Gulf states and from there outwards. It will take decades at least. The countries that support the new regime in Kabul need to be shunned. Not only Iran, but Pakistan which always plays a three way game. And of course there is China.... |
|
New Tue 17 Aug 21 06:55
Afghanistan - sooty123
|
|
Looks like it's a matter of time until the repat flights stop, I'm not sure how much longer the taliban hold off on the airport. I saw an interview on LBC with Ben Wallace who was emotional about not being able to get everyone out and that some would be left behind. Not often you see someone in government like that in an interview. |
|
New Tue 17 Aug 21 07:00
Afghanistan - Duncan
|
| Didn't they see this coming as soon as the Yanks said they were pulling out? |
|
New Tue 17 Aug 21 07:05
Afghanistan - sooty123
|
| Planning would have done, probably of the speed government collapse caught people out. |
|
New Tue 17 Aug 21 07:18
Afghanistan - Duncan
|
|
TL:DR What was the logic behind the Americans going into Afghanistan? Surely it can't have been revenge for 119, because the largest single nationality among the perpetrators was Saudi - wasn't it? |
|
New Tue 17 Aug 21 07:53
Afghanistan - sherlock47
|
|
i believe that they thought that Bin Laden was there. American people were set on retribution - comments like 'lets nuke them' were apparently quite common even in educated ( and civilised?) circles. Direct action on the Saudis was not an option, and most Americans do not know the difference anyway. Logic questionable, politically motivated.
Last edited by: sherlock47 on Tue 17 Aug 21 at 07:54
|
|
New Tue 17 Aug 21 08:02
Afghanistan - Zero
|
|
thought to be a soft target, seen to be positive affirmative action with minimum fallout if you bomb the country back to the stone age and kill the savages, goes down well with the folks back home. I too am surprised we have been caught out, with folks left behind. Whats happened is no surprise to me, and it certainly shouldn't have been to those in power. If William Hill had been taking bets on the outcome I would have been a very rich hombre. |
|
New Tue 17 Aug 21 08:30
Afghanistan - Duncan
|
|
>> >> If William Hill had been taking bets on the outcome I would have been a >> very rich hombre. >> William Hill is no fool, you would have got very short odds. |
|
New Tue 17 Aug 21 08:34
Afghanistan - martin aston
|
| Never go to war in a country that your leaders cannot confidently identify on a map. |
|
New Tue 17 Aug 21 09:22
Afghanistan - Kevin
|
| And never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line. |
|
New Tue 17 Aug 21 10:49
Afghanistan - MD
|
| And who is arming them? |
|
New Tue 17 Aug 21 10:57
Afghanistan - Zero
|
| We did, the Afghan Army is now the Taliban. |
|
New Sat 21 Aug 21 09:15
Afghanistan - Duncan
|
|
Just heard a piece on BBC Radio 4 today programme about the British boss of an animal charity who can't get himself and his staff out of A'stan. I am thinking 'an animal charity'! This isn't Surbiton! He has female staff with children who can't get to the airport to get a flight out. What are they doing there? If they are British why did they go there with children? If they are Afghans why should they be flown out to the UK? I didn't hear all of the interview as I was performing my ablutions at the time, so if I have any details wrong, then sorry. I am probably in a minority of one. |
|
New Sat 21 Aug 21 09:45
Afghanistan - Bromptonaut
|
|
>> Just heard a piece on BBC Radio 4 today programme about the British boss of >> an animal charity who can't get himself and his staff out of A'stan. Ashough I listened to part of the programme I missed this segment. Presumably there were animal welfare concerns for beasts in Afghanistan? Not saying you don't have a point or that I'd happily have taken my family there but there is another viewpoint. Until last week the country was regarded as safe enough for Asylum claims to fail. People, including those who came to UK as children, were being deported there. Whilst there were Taliban rumblings in some more remote places it seems that all the 'intel' was that talks would continue and that Kabul would hold out. Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 21 Aug 21 at 09:47
|
|
New Sat 21 Aug 21 10:52
Afghanistan - Bromptonaut
|
|
Was it Pen Farthing of the charity Nowzad that @Duncan heard? www.facebook.com/nowzadrescue/ An ex Marine who returned to look after dogs. |
|
New Sat 21 Aug 21 11:05
Afghanistan - Zero
|
|
He shouldn't be there because animal welfare is the last problem to worry about in that country. I hope he wasn't shipping flea bitten mongrels back to the UK for rescue. For once I am in agreement with Mr Gruumpy, Miserable Mansion, Esher Last edited by: Zero on Sat 21 Aug 21 at 11:07
|
|
New Sat 21 Aug 21 11:14
Afghanistan - martin aston
|
|
Maybe because I spent my working life in assessing commercial risk I do think about “what could go wrong?” We can’t all live our lives as worry-guts but in this case I wouldn’t know where to start. |
|
New Sat 21 Aug 21 11:34
Afghanistan - sooty123
|
|
I am thinking 'an animal charity'! This isn't Surbiton! He has female staff with children >> who can't get to the airport to get a flight out. What are they doing >> there? If they are British why did they go there with children? If they are >> Afghans why should they be flown out to the UK? > www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58240838 |
|
New Sat 21 Aug 21 12:27
Afghanistan - Duncan
|
|
>> I am thinking 'an animal charity'! >> www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58240838 Yep. I think that's the one. He said according to sooty's link "Mr Farthing, who served with the Royal Marines as a commando in the Afghan province of Helmand in the mid-2000s, said the West "should hang our heads in shame for what we have just done to this country"." Thing is, we haven't "just done it". We have been "doing it" there and elsewhere for many decades. |
|
New Sat 21 Aug 21 12:54
Afghanistan - Manatee
|
|
>>Thing is, we haven't "just done it". We have been "doing it" there and elsewhere for many decades. He's talking about what we have just done i.e. left them to their fate. How could anyone believe the government would hold? The Taliban have had 18 months to plan their takeover. |
|
New Sat 21 Aug 21 18:09
Afghanistan - Terry
|
|
There are some very fundamental questions need answering. When Biden committed to the withdrawal did he know at the time how lacking in resolve the well trained and equipped Afghan army was. One assumes there would have been an assessment of the risks. He either got it very seriously wrong, or he had an expectation of the outcome and decided to go ahead anyway. Was Boris and his team aware of the realities of the Biden decision. If they were did they simply hope "it would be alright on the night". Did they have any input into the decision making process. Or is the UK treated as an inconsequential second division by the US military. What does this do to US/UK special relationship - or is it a product of a UK delusion. I can only come to a few conclusions: - intelligence on Taliban and Afghan army was completely flawed, or - politicians on both sides of the Atlantic withheld the truth and went ahead anyway - the UK cannot rely upon the US for its foreign policy and strategy - we (the public) cannot rely upon the integrity of our political leaders (what's new?) Biden can't be sacked - only impeached. Up to the US what happens. Johnson and Raab can be forced out - Johnson would lack support from any of the opposition, but more importantly many of his own MPs are disgusted by his actions in a way which far exceed any strong opinions held on Brexit or Covid management. |
|
New Sat 21 Aug 21 19:06
Afghanistan - No FM2R
|
|
>> When Biden committed to the withdrawal did he know at the time how lacking in >> resolve the well trained and equipped Afghan army was. Of course he did. As did everybody else. >> He either got it very seriously wrong, or he had an expectation of the outcome and decided >> to go ahead anyway. His choice was stay in Afghanistan forever or leave. And it would have been "forever". If Afghanistan could have been "fixed" it would already have happened. There was, is and never could be any clean or clever way of leaving. >> Was Boris and his team aware of the realities of the Biden decision. I'd expect that they were informed. >> If they were did they simply hope "it would be alright on the night". Did >> they have any input into the decision making process. You mean did the US say "Dear UK, we would like to leave Afghanistan but we need youyr approval to do so"? Why would they, or anyone else, seek permission or approval for such a thing? >>Or is the UK treated as an inconsequential second division by the US military. I expect the UK is treated under the banner of "friendly and important but not as important as the US". Why would it be any other way? >> What does this do to US/UK special relationship - or is it a product of >> a UK delusion. What "special relationship"? >> - intelligence on Taliban and Afghan army was completely flawed, or I doubt it. >> - politicians on both sides of the Atlantic withheld the truth and went ahead anyway Which truth did the US withhold? >> - the UK cannot rely upon the US for its foreign policy and strategy As I said, they do not need or want our authorisation for what they do with their own people or resources. Anymore than we need theirs. How could it be any other way? >> - we (the public) cannot rely upon the integrity of our political leaders (what's new?) One cannot rely on the integrity of any political leaders, shadow leaders, or associated people in any way on any subject ever. >> Biden can't be sacked - only impeached. Up to the US what happens. Why would he be impeached? I know the BBC is running a blatant campaign seemingly in the hope that if they say Biden is troubled at home often enough then it will become true, but impeached? Hardly. >> Johnson and Raab can be forced out - Johnson would lack support from any of >> the opposition, but more importantly many of his own MPs are disgusted by his actions >> in a way which far exceed any strong opinions held on Brexit or Covid management. Oh my a*** they are. MPs disgusted by anything other than consideration of their own position and a sprinkling of grandstanding? Not on this planet. What do you believe that the US would have achieved by remaining in Afghanistan other than the hope of approval from the British media? Except the British media would have switched tracks and found it outrageous at the loss of life because he kept the troops in. It's tough, it's hard, there will be loss of life. The Taliban will rule harshly and victimise and kill people. Innocent people will suffer an die because the Taliban are in charge. Not that the "Taliban" is actually a unit, it's just a bunch of entirely disjointed people who do wtf they like and only align when it suits them. And the alternative is what, exactly? |
|
New Sun 22 Aug 21 14:15
Afghanistan - BiggerBadderDave
|
|
'And the alternative is what, exactly?' Dirk Pitt. |
|
New Sun 22 Aug 21 14:59
Afghanistan - Zero
|
|
>> 'And the alternative is what, exactly?' >> >> Dirk Pitt. Nope. Reacher, Major, Jack no middle name. |
|
New Sat 21 Aug 21 19:14
Afghanistan - Manatee
|
|
The simple explanation is that Biden saw difficulties in reversing Trump's decision, which was no doubt made to bolster his popularity with his supporters. By treating it as a fait accompli perhaps he thought the blame would lay with Trump. Given the US's obsession with 'intelligence' I can't believe he was ignorant of the situation and indeed the CIA is expected to continue committing significant resources and the drones will continue to fly, given Afghanistan's record as a terrorist training facility. It's a disgrace and a further one that the UK meekly followed without either protesting more volubly (we don't know of course what diplomatic exchanges took place) and that NATO as a whole seems indifferent. The rest of NATO could presumably have provided support. The ramifications are many and serious.. China has already recognised the Taliban government and almost certainly plans to bring Afghanistan, with which it has a border, within its orbit and extend its control of the region. NATO looks pathetic. The Russians will also take what advantage they can. The message that the USA is now looking inwards and most NATO countries won't make the necessary commitment will embolden both of these increasingly authoritarian regimes. |
|
New Sat 21 Aug 21 20:52
Afghanistan - Zero
|
| Not sure what blame Bojo has to shoulder, British troops pulled out the place in 2014. Anyone seriously expect us to go rolling back in there to make up for the US withdrawal ? |
|
New Sat 21 Aug 21 21:49
Afghanistan - sooty123
|
|
>> Not sure what blame Bojo has to shoulder, British troops pulled out the place in >> 2014. Troops remained in kabul and other places until July this year. |
|
New Sat 21 Aug 21 21:08
Afghanistan - Terry
|
|
It will be interesting to watch the Chinese approach to "colonialisation". Russia thought that troops, fast jets, helicopters etc would give control. US/Nato thought much the same + they tried to civilise the natives in the belief they would think and behave like us. Both were abject failures. The Chinese approach may be more commercial - money, medicines, infrastructure etc in exchange for raw materials. It's worked in many other places. Does it matter - being pragmatic, if we are prepared to do nothing about it we can't influence the outcome. And the definition of stupidity is trying again what has already been proven to fail. We simply have to accept that our politicians are inherently lacking in integrity, that England used to rules the waves, and the US is rapidly being overtaken as the dominant world power. This is reality - I have less of a problem with this than the delusional belief we are still in control of any but our own actions. |
|
New Sat 21 Aug 21 20:59
Afghanistan - Robin O'Reliant
|
|
>> >> >> What does this do to US/UK special relationship - or is it a product of >> a UK delusion. >> >> I think the US probably regard us as useful fools. |
|
New Mon 23 Aug 21 08:20
Afghanistan - sooty123
|
| Appears he's got permission from the UK to bring his staff to the UK. A benefactor has paid for a charter flight to fly them and a cargo full of animals back to the UK. |
|
New Mon 23 Aug 21 09:36
Afghanistan - Zero
|
|
>> Appears he's got permission from the UK to bring his staff to the UK. A >> benefactor has paid for a charter flight to fly them and a cargo full of >> animals back to the UK. We dont want their b***** animals over here, we have a dumped covid puppy explosion of our own. What a criminal misuse. of scarce resource. |
|
New Tue 24 Aug 21 11:56
Afghanistan - bathtub tom
|
|
>> We dont want their b***** animals over here, we have a dumped covid puppy explosion >> of our own. What a criminal misuse. of scarce resource. I see that charter flight has been blocked: Ben Wallace insisted he will not 'prioritise pets over people'. Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 24 Aug 21 at 12:35
|
|
New Fri 27 Aug 21 22:39
Afghanistan - Duncan
|
|
Oh! This IS good news! www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-58360419 |
|
New Fri 27 Aug 21 22:50
Afghanistan - Zero
|
|
Oh fab, I wonder how many deserving people had to make room for his 140 mangy curs and 60 flea ridden cats,. Its a ruddy disgrace,. |
|
New Fri 27 Aug 21 23:51
Afghanistan - Kevin
|
| Surely they're going to need temporary homes for all those poor animals? With a chauffeur and beige estate car? |
|
New Sat 28 Aug 21 02:49
Afghanistan - zippy
|
|
>> Oh fab, I wonder how many deserving people had to make room for his 140 >> mangy curs and 60 flea ridden cats,. >> >> Its a ruddy disgrace,. >> I must admit that even as an animal lover, I would have preferred people to be on that plane and can't truly believe that his staff gave up their places for the animals? |
|
New Sat 28 Aug 21 06:44
Afghanistan - sooty123
|
|
Apparently he's had a plane charted for him and the animals are going in the hold, the donations are also paying for all the animals boarding when they arrive in the UK The amount of arm twisting in a short space of time he's managed to do, he must know a few people in the right places. |
|
New Sun 22 Aug 21 16:15
Afghanistan - No FM2R
|
|
These days everything that happens in the world contains a s***-ton of fake news. For some reason we seem to be assuming that everything that comes out of Afghanistan is 100% true unless it was said by The Taliban. I am beginning to wonder. One day the evacuation is chaos with dead people everywhere, the next day it's moving along fine. One day everybody is going to the airport, the next The Taliban have a "ring of steel" (thank you BBC). The only constant is the BBC desperate to persuade everybody that the US is upset with Biden and the UK is upset with Johnson. I don't think we have the slightest clue which, what or how much is true. I am reasonably sure that the world doesn't care as much as the media in general and the BBC n particular need it to. |
|
New Sun 22 Aug 21 18:40
Afghanistan - Zero
|
|
>> I am reasonably sure that the world doesn't care as much as the media in >> general and the BBC n particular need it to. I certainly dont, I am merely baffled why people seem bothered about the place. |
|
New Sun 22 Aug 21 19:09
Afghanistan - martin aston
|
| What gets me are the attempts to big up the situation with terms like warlords and strongholds. They seem like a rabble to me, albeit a dangerous one. |
|
New Sun 22 Aug 21 19:35
Afghanistan - No FM2R
|
|
Thee Talibam are less socially relevant than the Inner Ciy Crew. The only significant differences being that The Talibam had weapons that go bang and want to be worshipped and the ICC had largely non-explosive weapons and were prepared to suffer disdain and disgust for their cause. I give about as much of a s*** for either. |
|
New Sun 22 Aug 21 19:38
Afghanistan - Zero
|
|
>> Thee Talibam are less socially relevant than the Inner Ciy Crew. Whos them then? |
|
New Sun 22 Aug 21 19:39
Afghanistan - No FM2R
|
| Some West London crowd that doesn't like tea. |
|
New Sun 22 Aug 21 19:41
Afghanistan - Zero
|
| Never erd of em. |
|
New Sun 22 Aug 21 19:32
Afghanistan - Kevin
|
|
>..I am merely baffled why people seem bothered about the place. Because there's over $1T of minerals up for grabs, including Lithium. The biggest currently known reserves of Lithium are in some 3rd world South American place so they'd prefer a more stable source. |
|
New Sun 22 Aug 21 19:33
Afghanistan - Zero
|
|
>> >..I am merely baffled why people seem bothered about the place. >> >> Because there's over $1T of minerals up for grabs, including Lithium. The biggest currently known >> reserves of Lithium are in some 3rd world South American place so they'd prefer a >> more stable source. And how much of it has actually come out the earth there to date? Stable? The place has never been stable and never will be. Last edited by: Zero on Sun 22 Aug 21 at 19:34
|
|
New Sun 22 Aug 21 19:37
Afghanistan - No FM2R
|
|
There are two routes to stability: The Invading Force kill everything and every opinion already living there that argues. The locals pick their future. We've tried the first, now its time for the second. Afghanistan is not good versus bad. It is this colour of bad against that colour of bad. |
|
New Sun 22 Aug 21 19:44
Afghanistan - Zero
|
|
>> The locals pick their future. Not happened to date. They get to a point where a very few locals pick the future for the rest of them. The very few end up having a row with the other very few tho, so "future" keeps changing. |
|
New Sun 22 Aug 21 19:46
Afghanistan - No FM2R
|
| Because they have the ultimate in proportional representation: two blokes get together and bomb the wife and family of anybody who disagrees with them. |
|
New Sun 22 Aug 21 20:53
Afghanistan - zippy
|
|
Its crap. It's the people over there that just want to get on with their lives and enjoy some of the things we take for granted that will suffer. Despite the promise of no reprisals the Taliban are going street to street, house to house looking for those that worked for the Govt or the NATO forces. There are reports of ex police men and women already executed. And there are people here wishing them (the Taliban) well FFS and I wonder if they would like to see them here? |
|
New Sun 22 Aug 21 21:15
Afghanistan - Zero
|
|
>> And there are people here wishing them (the Taliban) well FFS Really? who? where? |
|
New Sun 22 Aug 21 21:26
Afghanistan - zippy
|
|
>> >> >> And there are people here wishing them (the Taliban) well FFS >> >> Really? who? where? >> >> www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9916147/We-chance-UK-Sharia-Council-scholar-insists-Taliban-grown-up.html www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9916539/Police-quiz-manager-Birmingham-mosque.html |
|
New Mon 23 Aug 21 01:50
Afghanistan - No FM2R
|
|
>> Its crap. It's the people over there that just want to get on with their >> lives and enjoy some of the things we take for granted that will suffer. When you say "people over there" I assume you mean the ones that the Daily Mail tell you that you that you agree with? Because the Taliban are "people over there" and they *absolutely* just want to get on with their lives. >> Despite the promise of no reprisals the Taliban are going street to street, house to >> house looking for those that worked for the Govt or the NATO forces. how do you know for whom they are looking? Or even if they are looking at all? Because you read it in the Daily Mail? FFS. >> There are reports of ex police men and women already executed. Ohhh, there are reports. I see. So, all sewn up and done then. >> And there are people here wishing them (the Taliban) well FFS and I wonder if >> they would like to see them here? I would imagine that the people wishing the Taliban well would love to see them here. Why wouldn't they? i haven't been in Afghanistan since I was a feckless youth, and even then I paid little attention since I was mostly following a cute Australian hippy and it has in any case changed. I do remember it being a strange company with much underlying conflict. If only I had known it was as simple as the Daily Mail have explained. All one has to do is revile and refuse to listen to anybody who says anything other than the Taliban should be shot. Afghanistan does not wish to live as the US told them to, as the Russians told them to or indeed as the British told them to. Why do you believe that they should? Of course, if a majority of the people wish something then that should be paid attention to. If there is mass genocide then that should be paid attention to. etc. etc. But right now the Taliban would seem to be mostly guilty of what the Daily Mail thinks that they are going to do and so far they haven't done it. Yet, if I am not mistaken, you don't like people being arrested on suspicion of what they might do. Now, please don't get me wrong, I am not justifying the Taliban. What I do know is that I don't know and that hell will freeze over before the Daily Mail is all the evidence I need. Afghanistan is not good vs. evil or black vs. white. It is some Afghanis against some other Afghanis with the BBC and the Daily Mail making money out of both as the various politicians of the world do the same. The world is a different place, and Afghanistan is a very different place, since the first time that some religious country bumpkins with Toyotas and Russian guns started tromping all over the place. Not saying it is going to be good, but lets see. Of course, if you disagree with what is going on then you could go off and join the righteous fight, but that hasn't worked out so well for Shamima Begum. |
|
New Mon 23 Aug 21 02:45
Afghanistan - zippy
|
|
>> When you say "people over there" I assume you mean the ones that the Daily >> Mail tell you that you that you agree with? Because the Taliban are "people over >> there" and they *absolutely* just want to get on with their lives. Actually, it's the videos of the people clamouring to leave the cesspit of a country that Afghanistan is likely to become. Not only at the airport, but at international borders as well. Unless you believe that they are leaving for purely economic reasons - mostly women do not hand over children and babies for economic gain. Can you imagine many of the educated women, public servants etc supporting the Taliban freely? And yes, the Taliban are people over there, but with a population of 30m, I guess that they are the minority, but with a violent streak and big guns. And yes, I do know a little about the subject. My mother was a translator for many years specialising in near eastern languages. She worked in London before we came along then from home, mainly for international companies, also for charities, NGOs and the Govt. For many years we were sent exiles from terror to stay with us for a few weeks whilst she translated various documents and there was a steady stream of visitors such as Govt. officials, the local MP and representatives from NGOs. I have seen the scars left by beatings and torture. >> >> how do you know for whom they are looking? Or even if they are looking >> at all? Because you read it in the Daily Mail? FFS. Based on reading the articles on the BBC, Aljazeera, the Guardian, the Telegraph who all reported a UNHCR report. >> >> >> There are reports of ex police men and women already executed. >> Ohhh, there are reports. I see. So, all sewn up and done then. >> Again, several sources reported. I guess they could have made up the same story. >> I would imagine that the people wishing the Taliban well would love to see them >> here. Why wouldn't they? >> Well obviously! >> Afghanistan does not wish to live as the US told them to, as the Russians >> told them to or indeed as the British told them to. Why do you believe >> that they should? I think there is a huge gulf between not wanting to live as the USA / Russia etc. and wanting to live without the fear of arbitrary religious rules, intolerance, stoning, torture and executions. >> >> Of course, if a majority of the people wish something then that should be paid >> attention to. If there is mass genocide then that should be paid attention to. etc. >> etc. But right now the Taliban would seem to be mostly guilty of what the >> Daily Mail thinks that they are going to do and so far they haven't done >> it. >> No. The Taliban are guilty of overthrowing a legitimately elected government, to impose their version of Islam and Sharia Law. >> Yet, if I am not mistaken, you don't like people being arrested on suspicion of >> what they might do. I would have though that would be a view that many people hold. >> >> Afghanistan is not good vs. evil or black vs. white. It is some Afghanis against >> some other Afghanis with the BBC and the Daily Mail making money out of both >> as the various politicians of the world do the same. I wonder if 200,000 heavily armed thugs rampaged through the UK and kicked out the Govt you would be saying its some UK citizens against other UK citizens? I can't believe the majority of Afghanis want what is happening in their country and I chose to believe that the majority are too b***** terrified to do much about it. >> >> The world is a different place, and Afghanistan is a very different place, since the >> first time that some religious country bumpkins with Toyotas and Russian guns started tromping all >> over the place. Yes and that part of the short-term view of the West's policies and why I suspect China will reap rewards by playing a very long game. >> >> Not saying it is going to be good, but lets see. Of course, if you >> disagree with what is going on then you could go off and join the righteous >> fight, but that hasn't worked out so well for Shamima Begum. >> Such an asinine remark. Last edited by: zippy on Mon 23 Aug 21 at 02:49
|
|
New Mon 23 Aug 21 03:46
Afghanistan - No FM2R
|
|
On the one hand you dislike being targeted by the security forces of the UK over what you might do, yet nonetheless apply that standard to others. Is the irony that invisible to you? >> >> Not saying it is going to be good, but lets see. Of course, if >> you >> >> disagree with what is going on then you could go off and join the >> righteous >> >> fight, but that hasn't worked out so well for Shamima Begum. >> >> >> Such an asinine remark. As opposed to "I saw a video what said..." "I read a report in the newspaper wot said..." and "therefore I know that....."? It's called confirmation bias. I'd have thought you'd have been aware of it. |
|
New Mon 23 Aug 21 04:09
Afghanistan - zippy
|
|
The asinine comment referred to your last paragraph - i.e. why don't you go and do something about it then - knowing that it totally not what this discussion is about and is oft used as a goading point by fishwives when they have no valid points to make in an discussion - "oh well, if you don't like it why don't you do something about it" (Why am I imagining Eric Idle in drag saying this?) Apply what standard to others. I have suggested that Afghans are being targeted by the Taliban. I am not condoning it. I also inferred that it is wrong that (a) tribe(s) of Taliban terrorists are overthrowing legitimate rule in the country. That is wrong. Whether we should be involved or not is moot point. Our leaders have decided that we are not going to be involved any further. We will leave it to the Chinese no doubt, who will extract copper from one of the biggest untapped copper mines in the world. >>On the one hand you dislike being targeted by the security forces of the UK over what you >>might do, yet nonetheless apply that standard to others. Is the irony that invisible to you? I don't think that I have mentioned it in this post. I have pointed out some newspaper reports that people are making odd comments re support of the Taliban which I think is legitimate, because the Taliban have been known for ages to be our enemy in that country. Anyway. I've been up for 20 hours so I'm off to bed. |
|
New Mon 23 Aug 21 04:29
Afghanistan - No FM2R
|
|
20 hours? You've more stamina than I. I'm not sure that the Talibam are our enemies, or at least not directly. I think they care little of what happens outside their own little sphere. A sphere which I think is shrinking. |
|
New Mon 23 Aug 21 07:18
Afghanistan - Kevin
|
|
>When you say "people over there" I assume you mean the ones that the Daily Mail tell you >that you that you agree with? What's the fact that the link was to a Daily Mail article got to do with the point of Zippy's post? Has the DM fabricated the whole story? They've added their own slant to it no doubt but hey, show me a news outlet that doesn't. Which sources do you approve of and prefer posters to link to? Somewhere you think you don't have to read between the lines perhaps? Maybe we can get the mods to add a sticky. |
|
New Mon 23 Aug 21 10:50
Afghanistan - Terry
|
|
Politicians have clearly demonstrated a very pragmatic lack of integrity. But it would be naive to assume most politicians behave otherwise - they do that which electorally secures their position. The media want stories to sell papers and advertising. A large part of their audience respond to the emotive, not objective balanced reporting (unless occassionally the two are actually aligned). But we know the media isn't generally worthy of our complete trust anyway. Apparently the Afghan army were both reasonably (basically) trained, equipped and outnumbered Tailban by a factor of 3 to 6. Yet these soldiers who no doubt have mothers, sisters, children, brothers simply turned and ran. They must be either untroubled by the Taliban, or actually sympathetic to them. The west have anyway been entirely ineffectual in their efforts to create stability. Final point - there may be things to be learned from history, but the crritical issue is what to do moving forward. Only a few generic options are open: 1. Invade Afghanistan again - not the slightest chance of this happening, complete lack of public support 2. Marginalise Afghanistan, sanctions, characterise Taliban as evil incarnate. Simply perpetuates conflict and lack of trust and possibly terrorist response. Makes situation worse not better for non-combatants. 3. Try to create a dialogue. Set up trade. Provide humaitarian aid. This is the only option which has a positive outcome, even if it is less than guaranteed. Compare the regime in Afghanistan with that in Saudi Arabia with whom we have had generally cordial relations for decades. It was and still largely is a state dominated by Islamic law - particularly with respect to women, religius freedom, rights of expats etc etc. Unpleasant though it may be for some locals, they need to decide their own future, we have proved the we are unable to force our views upon them. |
|
New Mon 23 Aug 21 10:57
Afghanistan - Zero
|
|
Yer That above.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 23 Aug 21 at 10:59
|
|
New Mon 23 Aug 21 14:50
Afghanistan - bathtub tom
|
|
>>3. Try to create a dialogue. Set up trade. Provide humaitarian aid. This is the only option which has a positive outcome, even if it is less than guaranteed. I was surprised that UK government are increasing aid to Afghanistan by 10% and the country is 80% dependant on foreign aid. I wonder what the covid situation is like there? |
|
New Mon 23 Aug 21 15:29
Afghanistan - No FM2R
|
|
As Terry said. Outrage and what are probably staged photographs and heavily elaborated stories is pointless. *Everybody* has failed to enforce their version of society upon Afghanistan, there is little point or value in continuing. Also, as I said, withdrawal was *never* going to be pretty, whatever the Daily Mail thinks was possible. When Afghanistan was invaded 20 years ago it was a very different place. Access to international media, communications and television being major influences. Pandora's box has most certainly been opened. I think the Taliban will struggle to close it again and will have to adapt. We need to be part of the effort to encourage that adaption which will need to happen with their involvement. But don't get excited about the Taliban being a club, it's not. It doesn't have the planning, discipline and cohesion of something like the IRA did in its day. Even its 'membership' is nebulous. By and large it's a bunch of disparate thugs who will follow a leader for as long as they are getting to do what they want. If the leadership tells them to do something that doesn't appeal then they'll just wander off and do what they want anyway. |
|
New Mon 23 Aug 21 15:34
Afghanistan - No FM2R
|
|
>>*Everybody* has failed to enforce their version of society upon Afghanistan, there is little point or value in continuing. p.s. I suspect that the Taliban will also fail, for very similar reasons. |
|
New Mon 23 Aug 21 21:09
Afghanistan - MD
|
| Good post Sir. |
|
New Mon 23 Aug 21 14:59
Afghanistan - No FM2R
|
|
>> What's the fact that the link was to a Daily Mail article got to do >> with the point of Zippy's post? Not a clue, I can only suggest that you ask him. |
|
New Mon 23 Aug 21 15:37
Afghanistan - Bromptonaut
|
|
>> Not a clue, I can only suggest that you ask him. I think it's for you to answer; your post early today involving the abbreviation FFS. It's difficult to find sources to link to when referencing the news. The Telegraph and Times are both paywalled. The Independent is not but requires registration. Other than The Guardian, the BBC or a few regional/Scots papers one is short of choices. |
|
New Mon 23 Aug 21 16:14
Afghanistan - sooty123
|
|
What about itv news or sky, if its a big enough story they'll be plenty of it on foreign news sites like France24. Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 23 Aug 21 at 20:42
|
|
New Mon 23 Aug 21 16:36
Afghanistan - Zero
|
|
To get an accurate picture on news, you have to embrace many sources, accept they are biased in different ways, see what they are saying and draw a conclusion yourself. Quote them only when you are happy it represents something approaching factual. |
|
New Mon 23 Aug 21 19:57
Afghanistan - No FM2R
|
|
>>It's difficult to find sources to link to when referencing the news You should never consider taking advantage of this link, that'd very bad form. And I genuinely never have beyond finding out if it actually worked a couple of months ago. github.com/iamadamdev/bypass-paywalls-chrome And it does work, but I have subscriptions for the very little that interests me. Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 23 Aug 21 at 19:58
|
|
New Mon 23 Aug 21 20:00
Afghanistan - No FM2R
|
|
>>I think it's for you to answer How would I know why anybody quoted the Daily Mail? (though I guess I do have an opinion). |
|
New Mon 23 Aug 21 19:45
Afghanistan - No FM2R
|
|
Today there is a "featured video" on the BBC entitled "BBC reports from the tarmac in Kabul". In its way it is most certainly a human disaster with 000s of people trying to leave. But ordinary people, with jewelry, luggage and children, are lining up for planes. The children seemingly not scared, no gun shots, a total lack of blood and death in evidence. Yet only 48 hours ago it was a war zone, apparently. Clearly we need to be aware of fake and engineered news, not blindly accept any old crap just because it's in a 'newspaper'. The media has revelled in the sensation of COVID, but that's drying up now. Our Government has got used to being all powerful and our media to having people hanging on it's every word. Neither are going to surrender that feeling willingly. |
|
New Mon 23 Aug 21 20:53
Afghanistan - Terry
|
|
And politicians are doing what politicians do. Biden and his press team are painting Afghanistan evacuation as a triumph for the US in processing nationals and Afghan support staff in advesity, against the odds. Johnson and Raab are head down hoping no-one actually asks them a question. It really is business as usual! The only ones who seem to be behaving with courtesy and decency in very difficult circumstances are actually the British troops on the ground. At least that seems to be the case. |
|
New Wed 25 Aug 21 23:55
Afghanistan - zippy
|
|
Just spent a few minutes browsing FlightRadar24.com. There were some large military aircraft heading for Afghanistan, including a USAF Galaxy, a Lockheed Martin Super Hercules (no country of origin listed) and a couple of Turkish Airbus A400s heading in to Northern Afghanistan from Pakistan and right now an RAF Airbus A400. What caught my eye though were two KC-135 Stratotankers over Afghanistan. A total guess here but would these be for fighters rather than freighters (which usually carry enough fuel for their journey)? Last edited by: zippy on Wed 25 Aug 21 at 23:56
|
|
New Thu 26 Aug 21 06:35
Afghanistan - sooty123
|
|
The transport aircraft will (generally) need aar in this particular operation for a couple of reasons, there's no fuel to be had at kabul airport, kabul is high up and therefore tight on take off weight and generally they are pretty full with people. Those factors mean they fly on much lower levels so to get back they need aar. They are usually based in minhad or Al udied. Both very large airbases in the middle East. |
|
New Thu 26 Aug 21 18:34
Afghanistan - zippy
|
|
An interesting video of different times... www.youtube.com/watch?v=naHWKSpjZGI |
|
New Thu 26 Aug 21 18:53
Afghanistan - Zero
|
| 1950? I think you'll find thats a colonial view of how our natives should be grateful. It certainly wasn't, even at that time, representative of most of the - still lawless - bandit country. |
|
New Thu 26 Aug 21 18:58
Afghanistan - zippy
|
|
It's a cine film made by an American engineer working in the country at the time with narrative from an exile. It's fairly apolitical but does mention the cold war. |
|
New Fri 27 Aug 21 07:53
Afghanistan - sooty123
|
|
www.bbc.com/news/uk-58353726 Looks like we're at the end point. |
|
New Fri 27 Aug 21 08:48
Afghanistan - Manatee
|
|
>>"It is with deep regret that not everyone has been able to be evacuated during this process," Defence Secretary Ben Wallace said. Tying himself in a knot with the passive voice. Politicians have a special way of talking when they have failed. Not "We are sorry that we are unable to evacuate everyone". Of course, I'm biased. |
|
New Fri 27 Aug 21 14:10
Afghanistan - No FM2R
|
|
At the beginning of January the UK announced that the ARAP plan would commence 1st April. At the beginning of April the US said they were going to leave by September. no matter what. A week later the UK said it would be doing the same. At the beginning of July the US said that less than half of those offered special visas to the US had been taken up but that the process would still conclude by 31st August.. At the beginning of August the UK said that people should already be leaving, there were still commercial flights at the time, that there were impending terrorist attacks and that people should not leave it to the last minute and then rely on the Foreign Office. Which all makes me wonder why so many of those who wanted or thought they needed to leave thought the second half of August was going to be a good time to give it a go. Not a mistake I would have made. And the whole thing will simply become a political baseball bat for politicians to hit each other with and the tabloids to wail about. Not much glory for anybody there, including the ones trying to leave. |
|
New Fri 27 Aug 21 14:56
Afghanistan - martin aston
|
| I agree FM. I still hope that there is a degree of disinformation re the remains flights and capacity. I have no evidence for this but surely we are not telling the enemy our every move. |
|
New Fri 27 Aug 21 15:59
Afghanistan - sooty123
|
|
Which all makes me wonder why so many of those who wanted or thought they >> needed to leave thought the second half of August was going to be a good >> time to give it a go. Not a mistake I would have made. I'd bet that must thought that Kabul would be fine and they'd risk it staying in Afghan, probably more of a back up plan than anything else. Most probably don't really want to leave. |
|
New Fri 27 Aug 21 16:57
Afghanistan - Lygonos
|
|
>>I'd bet that must thought that Kabul would be fine and they'd risk it staying in Afghan, probably more of a back up plan than anything else. Most probably don't really want to leave. Even we were pedalling the nonsense that despite the whole country collapsing within a couple of weeks Kabul would somehow hang on for another 3 months. |
|
New Sat 28 Aug 21 04:14
Afghanistan - zippy
|
|
Survivors of the bomb blast in Kabul are reporting many dead are from bullets fired by Foreign (NATO?) forces in the aftermath of the explosion (BBC news on TV not on the web yet). The BBC is just showing the interview and have asked US forces for comment but none received. Horrible if true. Poor people truly caught in the middle. |
|
New Sun 29 Aug 21 07:37
Afghanistan - sooty123
|
|
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58372437 And we're out. I think we got 90% of those eligible out in a fortnight, some 15k. Good going I'd say. |
|
New Sun 29 Aug 21 08:20
Afghanistan - legacylad
|
|
15k does seem a lot. Probably more than any other European country, unless they got them out earlier. How come we’ve taken more than other countries ? I’m not saying that’s a bad thing, but is it because we had a larger military involvement in Afghanistan so used more interpreters and its them and their families were helping ? |
|
New Sun 29 Aug 21 08:53
Afghanistan - sooty123
|
|
>> 15k does seem a lot. Probably more than any other European country, unless they got >> them out earlier. >> How come we’ve taken more than other countries ? I’m not saying that’s a bad >> thing, but is it because we had a larger military involvement in Afghanistan so used >> more interpreters and its them and their families were helping ? >> Yes that and we've a larger capacity to move people from a to b than other countries. We've also got out citizens from European countries. Last edited by: sooty123 on Sun 29 Aug 21 at 08:54
|
|
New Sun 29 Aug 21 10:04
Afghanistan - Duncan
|
|
About 5,000 British nationals and their families were airlifted, alongside more than 8,000 Afghan former UK staff and their families and those considered at risk from the Taliban. 8,000 Afghans. What could possibly go wrong? |
|
New Sun 29 Aug 21 10:11
Afghanistan - Bromptonaut
|
|
>> What could possibly go wrong? You tell us..... |
|
New Wed 1 Sep 21 01:07
Afghanistan - No FM2R
|
|
Just been watching stuff on the News. 9 months ago everybody was warned that the US would be leaving. 5 months ago they were told to get the hell out of Dodge 2 months ago they were told to leave "now". And the World is complaining? I think Biden is pretty awful, generally. He's really only got one thing going for him, he's not Trump. But does anybody really think the US should have stayed in Afghanistan (or even gone there in the first place)? And how could they have left differently? Obviously they misunderstood how quickly it would collapse, but does that really make a difference? A lot of armchair and media b******* with added hindsight, as far as I can see. |
|
New Wed 1 Sep 21 14:30
Afghanistan - Terry
|
|
Just started to watch Raab being cross examined by the select committee. Pure evasion - giving answers completely disconnected to the question asked. If pressed he post-rationalises the action taken. The sooner he goes, the better! |
Forum Version 3.0 - By Khoosys
Car4play Forum
