I was wondering what happened to the executive car market ?
I.E a the end of the 90's there was the Granada Scorpio, Vauxhall Senator / Carlton and now the nearest we can get to executive cars are the Galaxy and Zafira.
Why mpv cars ?
I know that BMW still have the 3 and 5 series so there must still be an executive market ?
However, If Ford and Vauxhall have stopped making their executive cars then they must know something.
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>> However, If Ford and Vauxhall have stopped making their executive cars then they must know something.
Yes - I think they know when to throw in the towel.....
Last edited by: Old Sock on Wed 22 Sep 10 at 09:30
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Isn't the Mondeo as big as a Scorpio?
Ford seem to have stretched the Mondeo model range as widely as they can in a bid to cover both family transport and executive markets.
Everything from a petrol 1.8 in what passes for basic spec today, to a fancy V6 with all the toys you could imagine.
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The Granada, Senator, Peugeot 604 and others belong to a time when certain organizations, whether commercial or public, bought their vehicles from a single source and wanted a large model for their top people. When user choice became the norm in the 90s, and company cars declined drastically in the 00s, the big makers realized the market had gone and pulled out.
The user who might once have been proud of his Granada now wants a BMW or Mercedes to reflect his status. Only the French government still buys enough big cars to make it worth the bother of building them.
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People now buy the "executive" 4x4;ie.Range Rover,Cayenne,BMW,Volvo.
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The Granada and Carlton simply weren't as good as the competition from BMW and Mercedes. Even loading them full of toys couldn't mask that. I drove a lot of mid sized cars in the early 90s and a BMW 5 Series was simply in a different class to drive than a Ford Scorpio, even though you had to wind the windows manually. So Ford now offers an alternative in the form of the highly attractive Galaxy/Smax and Vauxhall/Opel seems to have thrown in the towel.
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Were the Granada and Carlton "executive" cars? More senior rep. or grades below director, and in streamlinig their organisation structures companies have largely eliminated these positions.
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As well as the prestige / snob value reasons mentioned earlier, cars in this class without German badges were also subject to savage depreciation, making them ridiculously unattractive to new buyers, but very shrewd secondhand buys for someone wanting a lot of metal and toys for their money.
A previous employer used to buy their company vehicles "nearly new". There were a few Scorpio Ultimas on the fleet. ISTRC they could be easily secured at 6-9 months old with under 10k on the clock and in mint condition for about half the new list price.
Carltons, like many other Vauxhalls of the era, were very reliable, and capable of astronomical mileages with little more than routine maintenance. The GSI 24v was also a great laugh to drive.
Last edited by: DP on Wed 22 Sep 10 at 11:49
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>>The GSI 24v was also a great laugh to drive.
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Known as the 'Hooligan's Express'.
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>> The Granada and Carlton simply weren't as good as the competition from BMW and Mercedes.....
True but the Caltons and Senetors were very good cars in their own rights. I think the Carlton estates were popular because the Mk2 cavalier only came as a hatch or saloon. I wonder if that was a calculated move by Vauxhall to sell the Carlton?
A friend of mine covered 200k in his 1.8 carlton estate before the engine died. He replaced the engine and covered another 70k before he scrapped it.
I think what is being said is true. Manufacturers have had to sit in one market or the other. Non exec manufacturers making exec cars is a thing of the past.
Tremendous foresight by Toyota in bringing about the Lexus brand eh?
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>> Tremendous foresight by Toyota in bringing about the Lexus brand eh?
Yes until you see some of the dross they've starting peddling in the US under the Lexus badge. The ES is a Toyota Camry, the GX a pimped up Land Cruiser and the SC a Toyota Soarer.
Can't fault their mutton dressed as lamb business strategy if they earn more money though.
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Still alive in Russia. They are going to start making Zils again.
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Think leasing costs played a part. Because the ford / vx offerings depreciated so quickly the lease costs were high compared to a BMW / Mercedes with their higher retained value.
If you are in the market for an exec then the badge will play a part in most peoples decision, so even if the BM has a lower spec people will still plump for it if it costs the same.
I think ford have done the right thing by allowing the mondeo to cover two market segments, although I still fancy chucking in the C5 for a C6.....
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>> I still fancy chucking in the C5 for a C6.....
You'll be disappointed if you do, the C5 (I assume you mean Citroen) is nicer to drive and has a better interior.
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You mean Citroen has at least equipped the C6 with a better interior than the Sinclair C5, BP?
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>> >> I still fancy chucking in the C5 for a C6.....
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>> You'll be disappointed if you do, the C5 (I assume you mean Citroen) is nicer
>> to drive and has a better interior.
>>
.....perhaps then I should just leave well alone as a kind of poster pin up :-)
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Interesting discussion point. I think, well, in my experience anyway, that there has been a gradual shift in attitude to company cars in particular.
I can clearly remember when the size, make and even sub-model of car was of paramount importance to those who were fortunate enough to be issued with them. The guy with a Granada "GL" envied and aspired to a "Ghia" and so on.
I work in the world of premium high fashion. An environment and industry where you might imagine that image conciousness in its worst and most self indulgent forms would not only survive but thrive.
Contrarily, the car is fairly low down the list of the 21st century fashionistas list of priorities, particularly among the younger generation. They are, by and large, just not that impressed with them in the way their forebears were. They will often opt for larger salaries or lower tax bracket cars now rather than statement vehicles. I know plenty of very senior people who run around in Golf sized hatchbacks in basic trim forms with small diesel engines. The same type of people who would twenty or thirty years ago have been driving the aforementioned "executive" cars.
For my own part, I am a sales director of a well known high profile premium international fashion brand. When I accepted this job I was offered a BMW X5 with all the trimmings. I turned it down because of the brutal personal tax implications and took a top of the range Qashqai instead with a tax burden of less than half that of the BMW. I am very happy with that decision. In reality, the Nissan does pretty much everything the BMW would have done but I get more money each month as a result. OK, it's not as good a car, but it's not bad and in this camera regulated, overcrowded little dot on the map the compact car is actually more covenient at one level and more than fast enough at another.
Most of my contemporaries are thinking along the same lines interestingly enough. One guy I know has changed his 7 series for a Clio ! In that world at least, people no longer measure their success by their cars in the way they used to.
My wife though works in corporate banking. Her offices are populated by people who still labour under the delusion that a cheap suit is preferable and more appropriate to bank in than quality casual wear. Their car park is full of today's so-called executive cars. They seem unable to break out of the mindset so easily. Far less comfortable with the concept of individuality and clinging steadfastly to the little social status markers of their chosen peer group. The sort of environment where wearing brightly coloured socks is seen as risque.
Different fields of endeavour seem to attract and nurture different attitudes. We can all think of the stereotypical wealthy farmer with his beaten up Volvo estate for example, caring nothing for the image he projects and seeing his car as simply another piece of capital equipment.
The corporate world though has become divided in its opinion of such things. Some still hold on to the old values but many no longer feel quite so compelled to make automotive statements and are more likely to choose vehicles which suit their whole and real lives rather than just the company car park badge competition of the past.
Ultimately though, I suspect the primary reasons for the demise of executive cars are the tax implications for company car users, the increasing propensity for people to take larger salaries and perhaps run their own cars instead and not least the fact that large saloon cars are for the most part fairly deeply unfashionable now.
Last edited by: Humph D'bout on Wed 22 Sep 10 at 22:04
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"I am a sales director of a well known high profile premium international fashion brand"
Yes I've seen you wearing that sandwich board out side "Shoe Express" on Oxford Street.
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Ah rumbled again dash it !
:-)
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It wasn't your idea selling Burberry to the chavs was it Humph?.......
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Not guilty M'Lud ! Although this sort of thing can significantly undermine brands through no fault of their own if certain groups adopt them.
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>> For my own part, I am a sales director of a well known high profile
>> premium international fashion brand.
>> and took a top of the range Qashqai
Yes but that Primark logo on the side of the Squashy spoils it a bit.
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It's ok, I've gone over it with a felt pen, you can't really see it in most lights now.
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I think humph has just about summed it up.
Has the executive car market gone? No it hasn't. Its changed. There is no "single make" car policy in any car fleet these days, so no-one has to take the big barge Ford or Vauxhall to prove status
In the IT game the company car (or its allowance) is still considered a must. German (for the Girls Audi A3's, for the Boys BMW) is preferred. IT salesmen need to have premium sports cars, some of the guys with big balls (the term for the mega deal salesmen) try to out do each other with Astons, Lamborghini's, etc. Mercedes for managers.
The tax on expensive company cars is ruinous, most are in the 40% tax bracket so most prefer to take the allowance.
So the executive car market has just morphed into a real mix of premium cars, mostly German.
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>>
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>> I can clearly remember when the size, make and even sub-model of car was of
>> paramount importance to those who were fortunate enough to be issued with them. >>
>>
My memory goes back before those days, when having a company car was something people tried to keep quiet about.
I remember being very impressed by the Austin Westminster with walnut dashboard and door cappings driven by my friend's father. My mother said, but it's not his car, it only belongs to his firm. He was a sales director, but to people of our sort apparently company car = travelling salesman.
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>> >> I still fancy chucking in the C5 for a C6.....
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>> You'll be disappointed if you do, the C5 (I assume you mean Citroen) is nicer
>> to drive and has a better interior.
>>
But the C6 is a looker in my eyes...
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Both Humph and Zero have nailed it really.
In the old days ie mid 90s for me, companies contracted one company for cars. In our case it was Rover and dependent on grade you got a 200, 400, 600 or 800. Even options were grade dependent. Very senior management could opt out and lease a BMW 5 series or whatever.
I remember in about 2000 our lease company changed to both Peugeot and Vauxhall and there was outrage! Talk of "I'm not driving a Vauxhall Astra" etc.
When 'user chooser' and car allowances came in it really blew all this out the water. Folk just bought whatever they wanted with the allowance, plus top-up if need be or opted for the cheapest base model BMW
All this has done has devalue the prestige of the likes of BMW and Mercedes because they are now so prevalent on our roads whereas in the 1980s they were a rare site.
This has then brought about the shift in certain sectors towards hanging onto the car you've bought and paid for with your allowance or opting for the cheapest CO2 'cash back' co car eg BMW 3 series ED as it really doesn't matter what you drive and never has.
Last edited by: Marc on Wed 22 Sep 10 at 23:46
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I had Co cars for a number of years until I discovered the joy of car allowance and buying your own.
Last "working car" did 93,000 and between 2 companies (monthly allowance + good milegae rates) they paid for it twice and I got the Trade-in Value to boot @ sale time.
Buy outgoing model (bugs etc fixed by then) @ big discount, look after it for say 4/5 years, service it...........pocket the cash in your bank account.
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My company is "allowance only", but thankfully with no restrictions. They don't care what you drive as long as it works, and is legal.
I buy £2k bangers, pay for them outright with six and a bit months net car allowance, and the rest is mine to do with as I wish.
But if I was offered a company car, I'd probably take it. There's a lot to be said for calculating the monthly tax, taking it out of your monthly budget equation, and just driving a car for nothing with absolutely no worries. If it doesn't start in the morning, not your problem. If it needs a service, book it in and forget about it. If you prang it (within reason), they give you another one. It's worth the money IMHO.
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>>>if I was offered a company car, I'd probably take it. There's a lot to be said for calculating the monthly tax, taking it out of your monthly budget equation, and just driving a car for nothing with absolutely no worries.
100% agree from my experience a few years back but the tax implications can be a bit savage these days.
Back then though I did laugh at folks driving some right old dogs so they could *profit* about £50/month over taking a new company car.
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>> I remember in about 2000 our lease company changed to both Peugeot and Vauxhall and
>> there was outrage! Talk of "I'm not driving a Vauxhall Astra" etc.
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>> When 'user chooser' and car allowances came in it really blew all this out the
>> water. Folk just bought whatever they wanted with the allowance, plus top-up if need be
>> or opted for the cheapest base model BMW
>>
Interestingly in my last big corporate job, the middle managers had company 5 Series or A6's. When opting-out came along, they all grabbed the money (£750/mth gross) and went out and bought 2nd hand Astras and Peugeot 307s! Top managment went bonkers!!
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>> Can't fault their mutton dressed as lamb business strategy if they earn more money though.
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They'll never stop it. OOPS, sorry that is a Toyota joke!
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Ford 1988 (ish)
Fiesta - Escort - Sierra - Granada
Mid 1990s (BMW really start taking hold)
Ford buy Volvo to be their "executive" car (as GM did with Saab). Toyota however created Lexus.
Late 1990s Ford:
Ka - Fiesta - Focus - Mondeo - Galaxy - Volvo (S60, S80)
Ford (and perhaps GM>Saab more so) as a volume manufacturer confused where they were going with Volvo and tried to make them a smaller Ford - ie volume - whereas Toyota and Lexus didn't really go for volume.
Ford now:
Ka - Fiesta - Focus - SMax - Mondeo - CMax - Kuga
BUT - are the exterior dimensions of the Ka not the same as the mark 2 Fiesta? Is the interior dimensions of the Focus much smaller than the Sierra? The new niches have taken over - albeit the vehicles are on the same floor plans as their brethren.
Personally I think the "junior executive" market - Audi
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"whereas Toyota and Lexus didn't really go for volume."
So >500k Lexus a year are not volume.?
And Toyota are not the world's largest car maker?
:-)
Last edited by: madf on Thu 23 Sep 10 at 15:13
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>>"whereas Toyota and Lexus didn't really go for volume."
>> So >500k Lexus a year are not volume.?
>>And Toyota are not the world's largest car maker?
OK, let me be a bit clearer.
GM sell (or at one time sold), give or take, similar car numbers to Toyota.
GM pushed Saab into volume via the GM parts bin. Saab pushed 140k 9-3s out in 2006 which (figures not to hand) was perhaps ten times the 1996 sales figures of the old car?
Lexus has a good few cars in the range but Toyota kept the Toyota marque as the "volume" brand and Lexus as the "prestige" range. As such it has, in my eyes, "exclusivity" that comes with higher price and niche models. The Saab became a more expensive Vectra but the IS220 has stayed a more exclusive executive saloon - more so than the BMW 3 series.
I think Ford made the same mistake with Volvo, perhaps BMW did the reverse with Rover before Phoenix really fried them?
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>> Lexus has a good few cars in the range but Toyota kept the Toyota marque
>> as the "volume" brand and Lexus as the "prestige" range. As such it has, in
>> my eyes, "exclusivity" that comes with higher price and niche models. The Saab became a
>> more expensive Vectra but the IS220 has stayed a more exclusive executive saloon - more
>> so than the BMW 3 series.
>>
Are you sure you are not comparing "exclusivity" with "poor sales"?
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Any make producing 0.5million cars a year is NOT exclusive..
A Roller built to order IS exclusive. A Bugatti is fairly exclusive .
A SAAB is neither exclusive nor executive: just another failed manufacturer of me too unreliable cars...with expesnive spares ...
An IS is not exclusive : it's volume built .
Peter Sellar's Mini was exclusive as was John Lennon's Roller. and Lady Penelope's Roller :-)
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Good post, madf.
Dreadful word: "exclusive". An estate agents weasel word, like "prestigious".
Just reeks of snobbery and image-chasing.
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The Japanese manufacturers created their up-market brands when the US had import restrictions. They were limited in the number of vehicles they could import so it made sense to sell higher priced stuff.
American consumers would be reluctant to pay top dollar if there was still a Toyota, Nissan or Honda badge on the front so they needed to create new brands. Enter Lexis, Infiniti and Acura.
Kevin...
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What about Villiers then?
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>What about Villiers then?
Too draughty ;-) A Lexus LS or Acura TL is much more refined.
Kevin...
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Talking of up-market Japanese, have Nissan brought Infiniti to the UK yet, or has the state of the economy killed that idea?
In the 70s/80s, wasn't the principal feature of the "executive" car its size, e.g. must be bigger than lesser mortals' cars? Did BMW then create the market for a compact executive car with the 3-series, totally flummoxing the size hierarchy at Ford/GM, etc?
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>> Talking of up-market Japanese, have Nissan brought Infiniti to the UK yet, or has the
>> state of the economy killed that idea?
>>
Yes, but with 1 (?) dealer so far in Reading, I don't think they'll be selling that many!
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Who knows? Car buyers are a fickle bunch.
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Ford and Rover killed the executive market for big cars made by volume manufacturers..
The last Granada was a monument to gross bad taste and style blindness - probabably driven by cost saving measures.. That boot!
And Rover proved that a large executive car designed properly - can be screwed up if you do not have adequate quality control measures: the Rover 800.
I had three as company cars - no choice - and the window switches failed, the engines blew head gaskets, and for the first time ever in my life, the clutch failed - in my garage at 7am.. (centre of the clutch plate disintegrated).
After that, you had a volume choice of Vauxhall - which had all the allure of dog turd. Or BMW/Audi etc.
Anyone who bought a Rover 800 by choice was a braindead muppet.. and a Granada buyer made Jordan look a lady of refined and exquisite dress sense.
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"the Rover 800"
I always thought the Sterling saloon looked quite swish.
Remember that TV ad - Britische Arkitect...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJWZ22_ZZgA&p=A42D5D32AE458E79&playnext=1&index=4
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Where has the executive car market gone ? - Old Sock
