E5 grade unleaded petrol is soon to be being phased out, and is being replaced with E10.
E10 petrol contains up to 10% renewable ethanol, which will help to reduce carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions associated with petrol vehicles and tackle climate change. Petrol in the UK currently contains up to 5% renewable ethanol (known as E5).
Can your petrol vehicle use E10 fuel? Stats suggest that 95% of cars can run on it.
However, that's not the only thing to consider. E10 only has a shelf life of up to 3 months. So, if you don't use your vehicle very often, e.g. it is a 2nd vehicle, such as a motorbike, motorhome, classic car, etc, then you're going to have to fork out extra money for super unleaded which is going to remain E5 (well for now anyway), or an additive.
And then there's your petrol lawnmower, strimmer, hedge cutter, etc. E10 petrol will be no good for these unless you use them regularly and also drain out the E10 petrol over winter.
www.gov.uk/guidance/e10-petrol-explained
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 5 Jul 21 at 13:19
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>>drain out the E10 petrol over winter
Which ewe should do n e way, although I've never dunnit and never had any probs.
Gorn all cordless now - including the lawn mow eh.
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>> >>drain out the E10 petrol over winter
>>
>> Which ewe should do n e way, although I've never dunnit and never had any
>> probs.
What are we supposed to do with it when we have drained it out? It's obviously no good just putting it back in in the Spring.
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According to Shell one should not assume that garden equipment and the like will necessarily be ok on E10.
As I understand it, like incompatible cars, they will run but it can/will cause damage over time.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 5 Jul 21 at 14:18
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It seems a little like the fuss over removal of lead from fuel which could have rendered cars without hardened valve seats vulnerable to increased valve seat recession.
Through a mix of additives and machining new valve seats there is now no problem. I expect similar solutions for E10 issues.
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US cars run on different standards - 85 octane rings a bell, as does E10. I'm no mechanic but I thought modern cars can automatically adjust their timing to suit.
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E10 is not a matter of engine timing, it is a matter of rotting seals. Also the reference to octane is only relevant because E10 will not be applied to 97 octane fuels.
The US octane system is the average of RON & MON where as the UK uses simply RON. US 91 is more or less equivalent to UK 97
Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 5 Jul 21 at 16:39
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I said I was no mechanic :-)
More of a concern to me is that it doesn't last long. I quite often don't use my engine for months in a row as we tend to use SWMBOs car for the longer distance trips. I probably only put fuel in it three times last year.
The car does warn me if I need to run the engine, and automatically does a maintenance mode if I ignore it. But that's not to use the fuel, it's (presumably) to keep the engine lubricated. It does less than 10 miles of it.
I guess I'll have to keep less in it - that should help fuel economy I suppose :-)
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As NoFM2R alludes to above, superunleaded will not be E10 and can thus be used where E10 may be an issue.
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>> I quite often don't use my engine for months in a row
That is a very good point, and a problem for most hybrids I assume.
I guess you could put 97 octane in it, but at an irritatingly higher price.
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According to the Govt website my 52 reg 1.2 Polo will run on E10, Mrs O'Reliants 54 plate 1.4 won't. There is no information on bikes and the Lexmoto importers "Think" their bikes will be ok on it.
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According to this What Car test from 2014, using E10 will unsurprisingly increase your fuel bill over petrol with no ethanol at all, and also says that CO2 overall will probably decrease through planting, but increase at the exhaust.
www.whatcar.com/news/what-car-e10-fuel-tests/n11430
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Esso Synergy 99 is mostly E0 even though mandatorily badged as E5...
"Esso super unleaded petrol (Synergy Supreme+ Unleaded 97 and Synergy Supreme+ 99 ) is ethanol free (Except in Devon, Cornwall, North Wales, North England and Scotland)." -
I try and get this for my garden equipment along with the extra Nectar points via the app and shop around. it varies 131p - 145p /litre. The ethanol tends to absorb water from the air and then 2 stroke oil seperates out.
The E10 is not very good for things like standby generators.
Last edited by: Shiny on Tue 6 Jul 21 at 18:14
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Morrisons in Havefordwest are now exclusively E10, with a warning on the pumps to check if your vehicle can use it.
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Most are e10 round here, warning notices on pumps are tiny.
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I wonder how many "White goods" motorists look at the notice, or even have a clue what it means?
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I assume that my car, like all cars built after 2010 and most between 2000 & 2010 is set up and built to use E10. Its a non issue isnt it?
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>> Morrisons in Havefordwest are now exclusively E10
Don't they sell super unleaded? I understood that was remaining E5.
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>>
>>
>> Don't they sell super unleaded? I understood that was remaining E5.
>>
I'm pretty certain that was labelled E10 as well.
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*If* they sell super unleaded it will be E5. But not all petrol stations will necessarily sell super unleaded.
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Shell V Power is and will remain E5
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On another forum, it is being alleged that "legions" of motorists are complaining of poorer running with E10 fuel. I have seen nothing.
I'm not even convinced it's been introduced widely yet although I've seen the new pump stickers.
Anybody used it and noticed any change?
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Second fill, one today towing the CCV. No difference in feel , performance or MPG.
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The Fabia's going to need a fill this week. Will report afterwards.
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>>I'm not even convinced it's been introduced widely yet
>> Anybody used it and noticed any change?
I thought I had a couple of days ago, when my 19 years old modest limousine felt like it was towing a caravan. Did I fill up with E10 a few weeks earlier? Apparently not according to the manager of my local filling station, as they have not yet received supplies of the new fuel and do not know when it's coming.
Car booked in with my excellent mechanic tomorrow to investigate.
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As I understand it alcohol is hygroscopic. The more % in fuel, the more potential to absorb water. A couple of years ago I wanted to start a petrol genny which used to stand unused for months with fuel in it; a few pulls with the choke (remember them?) on and it would fire up. Its first fill with E5 and first long stand rendered it useless with the carb float bowl half full of unspeakable gunge. I cleaned it out, ran it and, ever one for a bit of snake oil, put a Spitfire Fuel Diamond in the tank. I haven't tested it yet ...
www.spitfirefuelcatalyst.co.uk
What are my chances, eh?
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>> As I understand it alcohol is hygroscopic. The more % in fuel, the more potential
>> to absorb water.
I'm sure I read somewhere that ethanol in petrol is an issue for those flying light planes on 'Mogas'. Not just the effect of ethanol on components but also it being hygroscopic and potentially a cause of vapour locking.
After some considerable work E5 was eventually allowed provided the components were approved with it. Extra precautions were advised to deal with water contamination.
Googling suggests that E10 will present far more problems and that folks may have to return to aviation specific fuels.
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I understood avgas in the UK is ethanol free. There's an aviation museum near me that also has several old vehicles, they run them on avgas. It's fine as long as they're not used on the public highway (tax laws).
There's methods on t'interweb for seing how much ethanol is in petrol. You put some in a container with an amount of water, give it a good shake and after a while the petrol sits on top of the water with the water in the ethanol being added to the water you put in. So I understand the water is in the ethanol.
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>> I understood avgas in the UK is ethanol free. There's an aviation museum near me
>> that also has several old vehicles, they run them on avgas. It's fine as long
>> as they're not used on the public highway (tax laws).
I'm pretty sure Avgas is ethanol free. The issue is for those flying on cheaper Mogas.
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>> There's methods on t'interweb for seing how much ethanol is in petrol. You put some
>> in a container with an amount of water, give it a good shake and after
>> a while the petrol sits on top of the water with the water in the
>> ethanol being added to the water you put in. So I understand the water is
>> in the ethanol.
You know, I think I would stick to the specs & description provided by the supplier. If my pump sys E10 or E5, I'll go with that.
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E10 is not petrol containing 10% ethanol. It is petrol containing not less than 5.5% ethanol.
The old regs allowed up to 5% bioethanol - i.e. a maximum. It has been fairly well publicised that some of it didn't contain any, but it was labelled as regulation required it to be with 'E5' to show it did not contain more than 5%.
The amended regulations specify that premium petrol i.e. petrol with 95<=RON<=97, must have not less than 5.5% and not more than 10% bioethanol.
How much it contains will presumably depend on what is most convenient and or cheapest for the supplier. Recently ethanol has been more expensive than petrol so my guess is that unless the oil price rises significantly than the average ethanol content of premium will be nearer 5.5% than 10%.
I believe September is also the usual month for the switch from summer to winter petrol. The difference is that winter petrol has a higher vapour pressure and lower energy content. It's also typically cheaper. So oil companies may well be combining the switch to E10 with the move to winter fuel. It just so happens that adding ethanol increases the vapour pressure. But you can also increase VP with butane, which as far as I can make pout is cheaper than ethanol.
I expect there will be all sorts of blends around as there normally are. Some suppliers will be 'converting' summer petrol, some will be buying winter petrol, all will have to contrive >=5.5% ethanol by 1 November at the latest. So you might not even be getting 5.5% ethanol from 1 September.
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/986376/draft-em-the-motor-fuel-composition-and-content-and-the-biofuel-labelling-amendment-no-2-regulations-2021.pdf
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>>The amended regulations specify that premium petrol i.e. petrol with 95<=RON<=97, must have not less than 5.5% and not more than 10% bioethanol.
That's interesting to know and scuppered my plans. Since the start of the pandemic my average mileage has dropped to less than 2K PA. I was intending to use only super unleaded in the hope that at least some of it would be ethanol free.
I'm wondering if it would be better to keep the tank nearly full, or nearly empty to reduce the possibilty of problems with water in the fuel.
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I've heard that ESSO super is supposed to be ethanol free (or very low).
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>>I was intending to use only super unleaded in the hope that at least some of it would be ethanol free.
Your plan is good.
"Premium" is the description for 95RON standard unleaded, which will be E10. V-Power/Ultimate/Supreme/Momentum are not Premium.
Also - it isn't just a question of water. Ethanol oxidises (goes off) faster in storage, including in a sealed tank with air excluded, than petrol. This is why people with a deep interest in garden machinery are very concerned about ethanol.
Last edited by: Manatee on Tue 10 Aug 21 at 09:50
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>> E10 is not petrol containing 10% ethanol. It is petrol containing not less than 5.5% ethanol.
>> Also - it isn't just a question of water. Ethanol oxidises (goes off) faster in
>> storage, including in a sealed tank with air excluded, than petrol. This is why people
>> with a deep interest in garden machinery are very concerned about ethanol.
Both of which I mentioned right at the start of this thread, or at least words to that effect ;)
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>> I'm wondering if it would be better to keep the tank nearly full, or nearly
>> empty to reduce the possibilty of problems with water in the fuel.
Unless your car requires E5 or less to work properly, you are making mountains out of molehills worrying about water in the fuel.
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>> Unless your car requires E5 or less to work properly, you are making mountains out
>> of molehills worrying about water in the fuel.
Probably. And that's sort of my point. In practice, not much is going to change and in the foreseeable future there probably won't be as much as 10% ethanol in it anyway.
I use V Power/Ultimate/Supreme or whatever in the MX-5 and the Popemobile because they are DI and I tell myself they can use all the cleaning additives they can get, but it's a bit like throwing salt (and money) over one's shoulder, as much in hope as expectation.
I also use Costco "super" petrol when I can get it, but I don't actually know what it is...It seems to work.
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Mine is a DI, and yes I do one fill in 4 with Shell Vmax because it has the highest concentration of cleaning agents. But alas with any form of EGR at work I fear the crap is occurring upstream of the injector
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Our cars have been run almost exclusively on a diet of Sainsburys or Morrisons boggo standard fuels for the past twenty years or, let's see, about 900,000 miles combined without any problems.
We don't have a "proper" petrol station in our town.
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>> Mine is a DI, and yes I do one fill in 4 with Shell Vmax
>> because it has the highest concentration of cleaning agents. But alas with any form of
>> EGR at work I fear the crap is occurring upstream of the injector
Indeed, the fuel isn't passing through the inlet ports or over the back of the inlet valves.
All you can wish blindly for is a cleaner more complete burn from "better" fuel which might put a bit less crud into the exhaust that gets recirculated.
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Filled up with Shell regular Unleaded yesterday (26/8) on Portland. Still E5, so it hasn't yet reached everywhere.
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I thought it wasn't coming in until 1st September. I filled up with super unleaded yesterday I think that had an E5 label on it although I noticed an E10 label on the lower octane stuff. I suppose they've put the labels on early because all they denote is it MAY contain UP TO 10% ethanol.
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>> I filled up with super unleaded yesterday I think that had an E5 label on it although I noticed an E10 label on the lower octane stuff.
Super unleaded is remaining at E5, it's only normal unleaded that's changing to E10. That's why they're suggesting if your vehicle isn't suitable for E10, then to use super unleaded instead. Unfortunately some aren't suitable for super unleaded either.
Not very well thought out IMHO.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 27 Aug 21 at 12:45
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Why is a car not suitable for a high octane fuel?
I get that some will receive no advantage from it but I didn't know that there was a reason that some couldn't use it.
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>> Why is a car not suitable for a high octane fuel?
Perhaps when I said "vehicle", it was the wrong word to use. I meant that some petrol engines in general aren't suitable for super unleaded. Garden tools for example, as previously mentioned. i.e. small petrol engines.
That said though, I'm struggling to get a definitive answer as to whether I can run my 1985 Honda motorbike on super unleaded, as E10 petrol is unsuitable for it. i.e. damage to rubber parts inside the carburettor, and fuel lines for example, and also being stored for long periods without being used. Owners of classic vehicles I guess are also in a similar position.
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As far as I am aware there is no engine that cannot use super unleaded fuel, it is just that many of them will not be able to take advantage of its higher octane.
I have never heard of any negative impact from using a higher octane, it just may well be wasted money.
A 1998 Landcruiser which I bought new and gave to my M-i-law after a year is supposed to get 91 octane. It's been getting 97 octane its whole life because my M-i-law thinks it must be better.
It's still going strong and showing no bad effects. Though the body work is beaten to s***, she's an impact parker.
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>>As far as I am aware there is no engine that cannot use super unleaded fuel, it is just that many of them will not be able to take advantage of its higher octane.
+1
I used to use higher octane in my 'R' burning two stroke in my teenage years, under the mistaken belief it would make it go faster. The extra lead may have been responsible for the whiskered plugs.
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>> As far as I am aware there is no engine that cannot use super unleaded fuel,
>>it is just that many of them will not be able to take advantage of its higher octane.
But a really good old engine may not last long.
>>
>> I have never heard of any negative impact from using a higher octane,
I refer you to my post re:
Very extensive info below:
www.fbhvc.co.uk/fuels#E10
Operating problems and supplementary information
Troubleshooting hints and tips - two stroke engines
Also
Problems with incompatibility of petrol containing ethanol with fibreglass fuel tanks
The following is a statement about fibreglass fuel tanks from the Construction and Use ReEgulations:
• Regulation 39(2)(c) of The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations requires all petrol tanks on vehicles first used after 1 July 1973 to be metal. This applies to all vehicle types.
>> it just may well be wasted money.
On an ordinary modern car it might be true.
Many consider the added detergents worth the extra cost
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I am confused. Or you are.
Are you saying that super unleaded fuel has more ethanol than the current E5 Standard unleaded fuel and that thus there are already engines which should never have higher octane fuels because it will damage them?
I think you are confusing super/standard unleaded with E5/E10 fuel.
Current Standard Unleaded, 95 Octane, is E5 and will become E10 (more ethanol)
Current Super Unleaded, 97 Octane, is E5 and will remain E5 (no change in ethanol content)
Consequently, any engine which is currently running on Standard Unleaded, 95 Octane, E5 will be able to run on Super Unleaded, 97 Octane, E5 without detriment to anything other than your pocket because of its greater cost.
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"New eco-petrol baffles a quarter of motorists"
www.bbc.com/news/business-58398606
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>> "New eco-petrol baffles a quarter of motorists"
>>
>> www.bbc.com/news/business-58398606
>>
On checking with various cohorts over the past month or so, I'm the only one who has even heard of it.
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Info from the Jaguar Enthusiast Club
"To check compatibility of vehicles produced since 2000,
use the new online E10 compatibility checker:
www.gov.uk/check-vehicle-e10-petrol
Additional information on vehicle compatibility issues is available on the FBHVC website fbhvc.co.uk/fuels.
Very extensive info below:
www.fbhvc.co.uk/fuels#E10
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Now around 140p/litre.
I'll stick with E.
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About time you gave us an update on your E cars?
You binned the 225XE for an MG didn’t you?
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The 225xe was a cheap rate lease we had for 2 years (£230/mth, no deposit) and the buy-out price was 4 grand higher at 24mths than it was at 18mths so back it went!
Still have the 59-plate FRV which is the gaffer's daily driver (it wasn't used much while we had the BMW).
The MG replaced the B250e I had and is now ~21 months and 23k miles old. Still got some life in the front tyres (will probably change in time for winter at ~26k miles).
No mechanical or trim issues yet, though there was a software update last autumn that stopped the battery balancing and gradually reduced the battery capacity - a further software fix in January has sorted this and range is back as it was (c. 120 miles winter, 160 miles summer mixed driving).
Aerodynamics of a brick means fast motorway eats range - in summer I see about 4.7mpkWh at constant 50mph(~188miles), 3.9 at 60mph(~156), and 3.0 at 70mph (~120) give or take. Lowest I have seen was 1.9 over 20 miles at naughty mph during lockdown 1.0 on empty motorways, and 6.1 crawling from Edinburgh to North Berwick on a scorching day.
Performance is typical for a FWD EV - rapid off the mark (watch for wheelspin in wet or when turning from a T-junction) and unlike the early 110bhp Zoe/LEAF/Golf EVs keeps pulling well to Vmax (limiter at 96mph/10000rpm) as it has ~145bhp - along with no gearchanges means it skins most FWD ICE cars to 40-50mph without the accompaniment of revving the nuts off the engine.
Not as well built, fast, or comfy as the Merc was but the combination of MB/Tesla mechanicals and 75 winter/100 summer range, along with no rapid charging has consigned the B250e to the annals of EV history.
Plenty of hard plastics, but the tactile quality of handles/switches/steering wheel is all pretty good - think Suzuki/Subaru rather than Dacia/cheap Vauxhall. Boot is a decent shape and capacity - certainly no issues with typical family crapola.
Have started using the home charger more now that Central Scotland and East Lothian public chargers cost money but it's still trivial compared to petrol.
Tempted by the (even less pretty) MG5 estate which can be bought new from £20.6k (inc metallic) for the 214 mile version, or £22.6k for the 250 mile one with added 'safety' kit plus ACC/autopilot (which drops the insurance group about 5 levels).
Starting to see plenty of the ZS out and about, though I'm surprised the MG5 hasn't yet taken off as a minicab - I'm sure it will happen though just as the Octavia was the all-conquering cab back in the 90/00's.
Just checked the WBAC value - I paid £20,250 for the car new - WBAC say £16,500
Last edited by: Lygonos on Sat 28 Aug 21 at 10:25
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If you started from scratch tomorrow, what would you get? Full EV, or a hybrid?
And which one?
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Single car for the family? EV - probably a Tesla M3 long range (£46k...) for access to the supercharger network and easy travel around the UK (and Europe).
Two cars - cheap EV for me and plug-in hybrid for the gaffer so she can EV commute without long range compromise while leaving us the option to drive as far as we liked (I CBA using the current public chargers by necessity - I will use them for convenience though).
If the FRV died I would likely look at a PHEV replacement, perhaps the MG HS (30-35 EV miles, 260bhp, pretty well built and not butt-ugly!) for around £25k.
Porsche Taycan looks fantastic but it's 70+ grand :-)
Last edited by: Lygonos on Sat 28 Aug 21 at 10:43
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BBC estimated that 600.000 older vehicles are affected.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-58415587
I suspect that a lot of "super" has been sold to the lemmings during the panic.
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Am in France at the moment, and E10 is very well marked on all pumps. No impact on my car of course, and as usual on long French trips the mpg is considerably better than when at home. 522 miles from Chichester to Beaune completed on one tank of fuel at 41.5mpg according to the car. Broadly adhering to speed limits at home and here…more speed cameras and traps in France than last year though so not worth the risk.
A first for me, but petrol is, I think, cheaper here than at home. 95RON is €1.494 a litre, which at €1.16 is £1.288 a litre, 10p less than my local cheapest source (Sainsburys)
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Confusingly I filled up the GTi with Shell V-Power after work and they have put an E10 label on all of the petrol hand-pumps....
I think the new labels are a general note to try and inform drivers of the change when they pick up the hand-pump... I had to check what came up on the little price window to know it was definitely super unleaded.
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I regularly check my MPG when I fill up and I'm getting 2-3 more miles from a gallon since using E10.
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The ole woman reckons she's getting less to the gallon since E10 till I pointed out the dashboard display showing *43.6 MPG which is ruffly what it always woz.
*Not bad for a 2 ltr auto boxer.
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>> I regularly check my MPG when I fill up and I'm getting 2-3 more miles
>> from a gallon since using E10.
Mine is always appalling,the only thing that will change it is to cut off my right foot, and disable the cruise control
For example after driving gently and getting 21 mpg with a tow, I decide I had a decent reserve, and towed the CCV at a highly illegal 70 mph round the M25
21mpg disappeared from the display pretty.quickly
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Reminds me of when I used to tug a shed around, probably a lot more loaded and weighty (family bikes, cookers, domestic fridge and microwave, awning and all luggage) than yours, on the back of my 3.0l Omega. It always was happier in third or fourth, which over a journey would only get single figure mpg.
Probably helped by a company fuel card :-)
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E10 fuel - Dog
