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Ongoing debate.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 13 Jul 21 at 12:52
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Seems rumours are the last set of restrictions are likely to be kicked back for a month.
I wonder if anyone has compared the various likely cases/hospitalisation from all the government committees vs what happened, I wonder how accurate they were?
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There is an obvious difference between those being infected now than in January and that is age. Very few people aged 60+ with the virus and consequently most people in hospital are much younger, less serverly affected and fewer dying. But the Delta strain can bypass the vaccine more easily so they need more people doubly jabbed.
As much as it pains me to say it, the delay in re-opening, not drive down numbers but to get 80% of adults twice vaccinated, is probably sensible. I wonder if they will do a staged opening, by requiring people still to work from home but permitting increased numbers at outdoors events. Just to give us something as a benefit of the vaccination programme.
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Netsur. Selfishly I hope you are right re outdoor events as our son’s outdoor “large tent” wedding is set for 10 July. This was arranged six months before the first lockdown and we stand to lose a lot of money if it’s curtailed. Bizarrely we could all go into a pub garden along with a hundred or more strangers or fly on a plane, or attend a football match, but a family outdoor wedding for 90 where most people are vaccinated, and many already mix at the rule of six level, is illegal.
In the unlikely event of a subsequent Covid case from the wedding we could give “track and trace” a full list of email and phone numbers on demand.
I am not holding my breath on a carve out for weddings as, if the key figures are getting worse with existing restrictions, I can’t see how politically it’s available to Boris to relax any restrictions now.
Maybe he will surprise us.
PS the swear filter wouldn’t allow the usual word for a large tent so I have had to edit!
Last edited by: martin aston on Sun 13 Jun 21 at 20:26
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What a m******?
Well well! Not as I didn't believe you please understand :)
Last edited by: Fullchat on Sun 13 Jun 21 at 21:57
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The M word it seems is an HTML term and is caught by the filter. I am not technical so I don't understand why this is. Nor do I need to.
FM2 must have found a way round it.......
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Followed by an outrageous accusation without foundation....
www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?v=t&t=28691&m=623399
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Let us not forget Mark RLBS was a moderator once (yes, some of us do have long memories) and probably has a 'back door'.
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Best looking moderator ever.
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>> Best looking moderator ever.
That's quite a bald statement.
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I didn't claim to be the hairiest.
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>>Selfishly I hope you are right re outdoor events as our son’s outdoor “large tent” wedding is set
>> for 10 July. This was arranged six months before the first lockdown and we stand to lose a lot
>>of money if it’s curtailed. Bizarrely we could all go into a pub garden along with a hundred or
>>more strangers or fly on a plane, or attend a football match, but a family outdoor wedding for
>>90 where most people are vaccinated, and many already mix at the rule of six level, is illegal.
Lucky man.
www.bbc.com/news/uk-57476776
"The limit on wedding guest numbers will be removed but venues will still have to adhere to other rules."
Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 14 Jun 21 at 20:08
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Yes we are very lucky in the rules of the new normal. The precise rules will be clarified later today but I hope common sense will prevail. I do know there will have to be a formal written risk assessment. This for something in a private garden with friends and relations but if it helps keep us and others safe we will comply.
And dancing outside will not be illegal but advised against.
Somebody must have seen my moves.
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I'm sure such annoyances will fade away in amongst a lovely day. My best to the soon-to-be-married couple.
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Early AM train yesterday to Bingley. Everyone wore masks. Bus to Keighley. Everyone wore masks apart from the group of young Asian males. Train to Skipton late afternoon to meet friends for drinks canalside in The Boathouse. Same scenario. Everyone wearing masks apart from groups (plural) of young Asian males.
Obviously I said something but they didn’t give a flying F.
The bus driver at Keighley bus station told me they can only request passengers to wear a mask when boarding. I cba contacting Metro re non mask wearing on the train.
I suspect it’s like a badge of honour, similar to not wearing seatbelts and getting an ASBO.
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There is no point in rules unless they are sensibly enforced.
Mask wearing exists mainly to protect others (I am lead to believe), not particularly the wearer.
Businesses - shops, public transport, restaurants etc - have the ability to enforce compliance by restricting entry. Many are wholly deficient in meeting their obligations.
If some with limited brain functionality want to put themselves at risk by ignoring guidance, they can enjoy the consequences. Fortunately those who are fully vaccinated are now largely immune from the stupidity of a few, provided they behave with reasonable caution.
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When considering the value of wearing a mask I choose to believe that it is helpful in reducing my own risk, although less so now I am double-jabbed. The fact that a virus, being more than microscopically small, can get through a fabric mask as easily as I can walk through an 8' gateway doesn't mean a mask won't substantially reduce the amount of virus I am likely to pick up if I encounter an infective person.
By my thought process, the non-wearers are increasing their own risk as well as being selfish.
Unfortunately, the government almost certainly went out of its way to play down the effectiveness of mask-wearing early on in the pandemic, knowing that there was a desperate shortage of PPE for medical staff who were re-using disposable masks and wearing bin bags. The damage was done and can't be undone.
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Was there any real world information on how effective masks are?
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My Spanish pals are still obliged to wear masks outdoors in ‘urban areas’....that includes beaches. They were on a beach litter pick last week and everyone was wearing a mask...only when you put your towel down, or go for a swim, can you take it off.
Whether or not it is enforced is another matter, but you don’t argue with the Guardia Civil.
Late last year when walking through almost deserted mountain villages we put our masks on...I fail to see the logic of wearing them outdoors.
Even though I’ve been a little blasé about restrictions I’m still avoiding sitting inside pubs apart from when they are quiet and have adequate social distancing. Which varies a lot pub to pub.
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>> Was there any real world information on how effective masks are?
There's plenty of results on Google to suggest they're effective at catching exhaled droplets which is the purpose for which they're intended. Assuming they're worn properly of course. Observation of people not wearing them properly makes one realise why contraception can be unreliable!!
Less so at protecting the user as you're quite likely to pick up virus touching something and then transferring it by touch to your face. I don't think anybody has managed to avoid touching their face. Certainly all five participants in the Zoom meeting I was in this morning were touching their faces whether to scratch or cover up a guffaw of laughter.
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Further to my earlier news on my son’s wedding I have just spent an hour or so going through the Govt revised rules on weddings. As previously discussed ours is a Big Tent wedding. The documents are hard to follow with lots of cross references and several places where the requirements are laid out for commercial or indoor venues but then suggest these don’t apply to outdoor private venues but don’t lay out what does apply there. The govt hasn’t heard of flow charts or tables.
From what I can see all that the law requires is a risk assessment of the capacity of the Big Tent with one metre social distancing. It then goes on to say words to the effect that this is so that attendees can socially distance if they want to. Not that they must socially distance. The rest of the assessment is mainly on stuff like hygiene, congestion avoidance and signage
Quite a lot is simply “advice”. Table service for example is not a must. Dancing is not encouraged but they can’t touch you for it. I think drinking standing up is still forbidden for some reason but I will need to check. Also the exact position on mask wearing when moving about now eludes me.
I am still pleased that we can go ahead and sitting in a draughty tent seems as safe as we can make it while others are still subject to other restrictions. Roll on the 10th July. It will be a great day whatever hoops we have to jump through.
Last edited by: martin aston on Tue 15 Jun 21 at 15:34
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My Hilleberg Akto is a hooped tent. There’s not much room for dancing in it.
I’m sure you’ll all have a marvellous day. Best wishes.
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The government appears close to announcing that Social Care staff working with older people will be required to be vaccinated. It's also consulting on a similar requirement in the NHS:
www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/15/covid-jabs-to-become-mandatory-for-care-home-staff-in-england
There are some understandable anxieties about disincentive to stay in an already understaffed field and a number of ethical issues around Human Rights and Equalities Legislation. Other areas where vaccination is mandatory like MMR on children's medicine and Hepatitis in surgical theatres are mentioned as comparators but these seem to be more of a 'duty of care' thing for the employee and are mattes of choice for those entering the field.
What does the panel think?
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I think that those that don't want it will probably leave the care sector and get a job elsewhere. Seems to be plenty of jobs about at the moment.
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I think it's a necessary precaution and expect that there will be exemptions for employees with valid medical reasons for not being vaccinated. That won't stop the media stirring up a s*** storm of indignation and sections of the legal profession from crawling out from under their rocks though.
What won't get much coverage is the fact that many other folks will require a covid jab or lose their income. Continental lorry drivers, airline and travel employees, sales and techies for international companies etc. etc. In fact anyone who travels internationally will need the jab.
But let's concentrate on care home staff eh? That makes better news.
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>> What won't get much coverage is the fact that many other folks will require a
>> covid jab or lose their income. Continental lorry drivers, airline and travel employees, sales and
>> techies for international companies etc. etc. In fact anyone who travels internationally will need the
>> jab.
>> But let's concentrate on care home staff eh? That makes better news.
Precisely.
The HR department at my employer is asking everyone to update them with their vaccination status, although they aren't mandating anything (yet).
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>> The HR department at my employer is asking everyone to update them with their vaccination
>> status, although they aren't mandating anything (yet).
>>
Will they be able to distinguish between those who are telling the truth and those who are lying?
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>>
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>> Will they be able to distinguish between those who are telling the truth and those
>> who are lying?
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Well, they couldn't on their employee's CVs.
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What won't get much coverage is the fact that many other folks will require a
>> covid jab or lose their income. Continental lorry drivers, airline and travel employees, sales and
>> techies for international companies etc. etc. In fact anyone who travels internationally will need the
>> jab.
>> But let's concentrate on care home staff eh? That makes better news.
>>
Anything to suggest those groups will be forced to have a jab if they don't want to or be fired?
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>> Anything to suggest those groups will be forced to have a jab if they don't
>> want to or be fired?
I spoke to somebody in employed in Social Care a couple of months ago where the employer required a Covid vaccination shortly after her start date. Not my field, suggested she speak to ACAS. I've not seen anything to suggest eg lorry drivers or sales people need vaccine - unless of course the country travelled to demands it.
There's a process etc difference between an employer changing one's terms and conditions to require vaccination and a Statutory requirement in primary or secondary legislation or perhaps a Ministerial Direction. It will be interesting to see how the Department proceeds.
A medical exemption is likely to be tightly drawn.
For all Kevin's scepticism of lawyers etc there will be some hard cases and both Human Rights Law and Equality legislation are engaged.
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>For all Kevin's scepticism of lawyers etc.
I did not say that I was sceptical of lawyers. I said "sections of the legal profession".
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>> I did not say that I was sceptical of lawyers. I said "sections of the
>> legal profession".
Sections of the Legal Profession like Leigh Day or Duncan Lewis at solicitor level and various sets at The Bar are lined up to act for people who feel they're discriminated against. Both the Solicitors and the Barristers ar commercial ventures; they don't take cases with no hope, just those with a >50% (and probably quite a bit greater) chance of success.
Is this case a bad thing?:
www.leighday.co.uk/latest-updates/news/2021-news/disabled-student-given-permission-to-legally-challenge-new-regulations-preventing-him-claiming-universal-credit/
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 16 Jun 21 at 21:14
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>Anything to suggest those groups will be forced to have a jab if they don't want to or be fired?
Anything to suggest that Care Home workers will be forced to or fired other than media speculation and scare mongering?
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>> Anything to suggest that Care Home workers will be forced to or fired other than
>> media speculation and scare mongering?
If the government will 'require' vaccinations and compel Employers and Individuals to comply and with a timetable of how long will be allowed to sort it being briefed, how is that scare mongering?
What do you think will really happen?
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Because a report on ITV Meridian this evening quoted someone from an organisation of Care Home owners saying that those who refused the vaccine would probably be transferred to non-frontline roles not dismissed.
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>> Because a report on ITV Meridian this evening quoted someone from an organisation of Care
>> Home owners saying that those who refused the vaccine would probably be transferred to non-frontline
>> roles not dismissed.
If that particular employer can offer the flexibility AND the staff members have the skills for a 'non frontline' role then that's good stuff.
Not all will have the willingness or the staff skills to make redeployment work.
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>> Anything to suggest that Care Home workers will be forced to or fired other than
>> media speculation and scare mongering?
So you made it up/it's just your opinion. Okay.
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 17 Jun 21 at 02:39
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I pointed out that other workers are in a similar position but won't get any coverage whatsoever. If you didn't understand that I promise I'll make allowances next time.
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>> I pointed out that other workers are in a similar position but won't get any
>> coverage whatsoever. If you didn't understand that I promise I'll make allowances next time.
As I pointed out there's a difference between (say) Ryanair or Jet 2 requiring their employees to be vaccinated with contracts amended, albeit unilaterally by the employer, and requiring certain categories to be vaccinated by law. A western democracy legislating to infringe the autonomy of adults over what's injected into their bodies, at risk of losing their livelihood, is a big step. Not surprising if it hits the headlines.
If an airline requires it and BALPA or the Cabin Crew's Union kick up then they'll get coverage too
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 16 Jun 21 at 21:53
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Please do make allowances, making sense rather than making up would be a good place to start.
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>> Please do make allowances, making sense rather than making up would be a good place
>> to start.
I'm a little confused. Who is making what stuff up and who is making which allowances?
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It's only you who is having problems understanding what I posted. Everyone else seems to have coped remarkably well. Perhaps it's my accent?
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Correction.
That's two people I've confused.
Last edited by: Kevin on Wed 16 Jun 21 at 23:01
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>>What does the panel think?
The context is that it has proved very difficult to keep COVID out of care homes. Hancock said that a protective ring was thrown around care homes "from the start" but IIRC 27,000 residents died with COVID in the first wave (counted where COVID was mentioned as a cause of death) and nearly as many in the second wave (as measured by deaths within 28 days of a positive test). The first wave figure is presumed to be a substantial underestimate because there was far less testing then.
Whilst it certainly appears that Hancock's protective ring either didn't exist or didn't work, stats from around the world suggest that no country has succeeded in keeping COVID out of car homes and it is therefore very difficult to do.
So, to answer your question, I think nobody should be forced to accept vaccination but if they choose not to, it's reasonable to consider seriously whether they should be allowed in a care home in any capacity.
Yes, I have just listened to the latest edition of 'More or Less'.
www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000wz3z
Last edited by: Manatee on Wed 16 Jun 21 at 21:26
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If quotes by the scientists at the last two press briefings are to be believed, the bulk of infection in care homes was through staff not patients ex hospitals.
Intuitively this seems entirely credible - care home staff mix in other settings in the community, at home with other family members and socialise.
Any care home which allows unvaccinated staff to work with the elderly is taking the very real risk that if granny succumbs they may be seen as failing to take appropriate care.
So if you are a care home manager would you rather (a) take a risk on a claim for unfair dismissal, or (b) being held negligent for the death of a person for whose care you were entrusted.
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I wrote about this a week or so ago. The good UK news is that
"Following a satisfactory review, MHRA extends authorisation of NHS Test and Trace lateral flow devices"
www.gov.uk/government/news/following-a-satisfactory-review-mhra-extends-authorisation-of-nhs-test-and-trace-lateral-flow-devices
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From The Times today....
A study by Public Health England found that a single dose of the Pfizer vaccine gave 94 per cent protection against a person being admitted to hospital after catching the Indian strain. This was similar to the 85 per cent protection it gave against the Kent variant.
For the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine, a single dose gave 71 per cent protection against the Indian strain, compared with 76 per cent against the Kent strain, according to the analysis.
After a second dose, Pfizer’s protection against the Indian variant rose to 96 per cent and AstraZeneca’s to 92 per cent, similar to the 95 per cent and 86 per cent offered by each jab against the Kent strain.
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coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/cases
But this may well be due to more effective testing or a whole host of other factors. Government figures though so presumably trustworthy.
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Younger, fitter people are ill longer before dying/getting better. An old person is job done within 2 weeks, one way or another.
Number of cases is not a very good measure in any case.
Hospitalisations is all that matters.
Don't forget, even now total deaths is only 4 million out of 7.65 billion. Totally irrelevant, unless you or yours happen to be one of them.
The only danger is, and always has been, the health system getting overloaded. And the NHS is a very long way from that at the moment.
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>> coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/cases
>>
>> But this may well be due to more effective testing or a whole host of
>> other factors. Government figures though so presumably trustworthy.
This time last year we were about 8 weeks on from the Health Secretary's frigged result of 100k tests a day. We've now got Lateral Flow tests available on demand in unlimited numbers.
Not clear that positive tests compared over that time span are a reliable metric.
There are however emerging rises in the number on ventilators which is the final pinch point. before deaths escalate.
At the moment its a 40% weekly rise but from a very small number. If numbers on ventilators go on escalating by 40%/week then we'll be in trouble well before the schools go back.
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There is a view that lateral flow tests are completely screwing the statistics as well as track and trace, because they miss so many positives either because of low viral load in largely asymptomatic people or because the users don't stick them up their noses properly.
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Chatting to people at work with kids in secondary school, lots of kids aren't bothering registering tests that come back negative. They only go online and record it if it's positive.
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>> Chatting to people at work with kids in secondary school, lots of kids aren't bothering
>> registering tests that come back negative. They only go online and record it if it's
>> positive.
Fell into exactly that trap with tests before we went to the Hebrides. Didn't read the destructions carefully enough and failed to record the first two negatives.
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The consensus in Miss Z's work is that the COVID tests are too inaccurate.
They have people that show all the symptoms and have had a few tests come back clear, then on later tests a positive result.
Of course the symptoms may have been something else but it happens so regularly that they don't trust them.
The problem is that they put the patient in isolation but the hospital says no the patient needs to be in general population. Consultants have to put their foot down to stop the patient being moved and infecting others.
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>>he problem is that they put the patient in isolation but the hospital says no the patient needs to be in general population.
>> Consultants have to put their foot down to stop the patient being moved and infecting others.
SWMBO was admitted to A & E essentially to have xrays etc after a sort of stumble.
Several days after arriving I am now today ( Wed) informed she was in contact with a Covid person in AAU and is going to be isolated in hospital for 14 days.
We have both had our two jabs a while back so I am not concerned.
It is very strange me having to adapt to the new environment afer so long being in isolation at home. All the normals re Covid that most folks do automatically I have to try to adhere to.
Plus I now have two weeks on my own to go wherever I wish.
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>>Plus I now have two weeks on my own to go wherever I wish.
Not wishing in anyway to be unkind, but I imagine that will be a very pleasant, relaxing and, may I say, well-deserved time.
I hope you enjoy yourself thoroughly.
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>> Not wishing in anyway to be unkind, but I imagine that will be a very
>> pleasant, relaxing and, may I say, well-deserved time.
>>
>> I hope you enjoy yourself thoroughly.
>>
Thanks - not unkind. I can miss out some daily hospital visits, even though I am the only accredited ( cannot be changed) visitor and not cause aggro.
It is a quite unexpected sort of bonus to improve my health.
First, mudane but important trips to my dentist and optician.
Then two trips ( 200 miles each round trip ) that I though I would never make due to the cost of care etc for SWMBO while I was away. Both trips to great friends of ours who cannot come to us.
I will able to visit other more local friends too.
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and just relax a bit, I imagine.
Have a great time. I'd buy you a beer if we were actually in the same country / continent / hemisphere.
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As Henry lives near a spoons* I think its Duncans job.
*In fact its Duncs nearest spoons.
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>> As Henry lives near a spoons* I think its Duncans job.
>>
>> *In fact its Duncs nearest spoons.
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Love to go!
What a good idea!
However - a word to the wise. Having completed a series of radiotherapy sessions on my face a few days ago, the visit should be carried out after dark, and people other than me would be wise to wear dark glasses. I am not a pretty sight!
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>>I am not a pretty sight!
But presumably fairly easy to find in the dark. I used to have a Timex watch like that.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 24 Jun 21 at 16:20
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...inside with the obligatory mask, then...
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>> ...inside with the obligatory mask, then...
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You can have more details if you want. Even I don't think scabs, pus and crusting is attractive.
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Isnt it a bit late for cosmetic surgery? Sheez the lengths some people will go to to get out of buying a round.
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>> You can have more details if you want. Even I don't think scabs, pus and
>> crusting is attractive.
>>
...I can see why radiotherapy on top of that could be a bit of a challenge...
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>> Plus I now have two weeks on my own to go wherever I wish.
Leptis Magna is well worth a visit, if you missed it last time around.
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-57580118
Probably due to the football - the article suggests people watching the games in groups.
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I wonder if I can find those here. I need to find out because the ones we have are a bit s***.
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God this annoys me....
Yeah, no s*** Sherlock!
This is something I highlighted from day one, of course the 'full-fat' FFP3 mask will provide the best protection but as I've said the normal surgical mask has a very limited time scale where they are effective, once they become moist with vapour then they stop being a good filter, at work we usually give them a ten minute life span.
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A moist mask is more effective at filtering aerosols than a dry one, thus has some role for stopping you spreading your own infection.
Patients/staff are generally at more risk from other hospital staff than from other patients.
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>> Patients/staff are generally at more risk from other hospital staff than from other patients.
>>
I have a photo of Miss Z dressed top to toe in "hazmat" gear whist working on resus at the height of the pandemic. She still caught CV19.
At the moment Mrs Z has a persistent cough and though we have all been vaccinated we are self isolating until the results of the PCR test comes through. Right pain in the a***!
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I’ve tickets for this year’s Goodwood in just over a weeks’ time.
Unfortunately I’ve just looked at the entry requirements for this event which they are prompting as a ‘Covid test event’, for over ten years I’ve gone with my Dad and is something we’ve looked forward to but I think we might have a problem this year.
It seems they will only let you in if you can meet the following criteria.
Double vaccinated.
Negative LFT in the last 48 hours.
Natural immunity by being infected over 180 days ago.
Both myself and my 83 year old Dad have had both jabs but it seems that they will ONLY accept proof of this via the NHS smartphone app which my Dad doesn’t own.
In their T&C they have expressly stated they will NOT accept the card with both jab dates on that you are given as proof.
Even if I could persuade him to take a LFT then surely the result would have to be registered and proof provided via a smartphone??
Not sure what to do now?
This is contrast to two big agricultural shows I’ve already been to where they made allowances for people without smartphones.
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Le Mans 24h has been rescheduled this year to August and is restricted open door, and they are allowing camping.
But most of my mates have decided not to go as it isn't really clear about what will be required, and we're not even sure if we will be allowed into France, or back into the UK by that time.
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>> Not sure what to do now?
Contact Goodwood for advice I would have thought. Not everyone has smartphones, especially the elderly. They should have a plan B for this.
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Chris Witty has been accosted by louts with cameras.
Absolutely appalling behaviour which seems to be acceptable to some. And then you red some of the comments that run alongside the report on social media reinforcing its toxicity.
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9734947/Thugs-GRAB-Chris-Whitty-headlock-harass-worried-looking-Chief-Medical-Office.html
Last edited by: Fullchat on Tue 29 Jun 21 at 13:24
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Agreed FC, totally unwarranted.
Considering the number of anti-covid nut-jobs about I am surprised that he hasn't been given proper protection.
This isn't the first time that the experts have been treated like this, wasn't one harangued by an anti-lockdown nut near Parliament Square a couple of weeks back?
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>> This isn't the first time that the experts have been treated like this, wasn't one
>> harangued by an anti-lockdown nut near Parliament Square a couple of weeks back?
I think that may have been a BBC reporter. This is not the first time Chris Whitty has been picked on, he was harangued while queueing for a lunchtime sarnie last year. Jonathan Van-Tam has also been picked on.
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57675176
A report about the two men, harassing Chris whitty. Both apologise.
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Apparently schoolkids are faking tests to get a positive result with lemon juice so they get time off school.
I read it first on Twitter and I'm not sure I believe it but there is an article which seems to confirm it might work.
www.leaderlive.co.uk/news/wrexham/19399723.warning-viral-videos-show-fruit-juice-used-create-false-positive-covid-tests/
Also all over TikTok I hear.
Really?
Last edited by: smokie on Thu 1 Jul 21 at 12:52
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>> I read it first on Twitter and I'm not sure I believe it but there is an article which seems to confirm it might work.
If you Google lemon juice covid test there are quite a few articles that also confirm it.
One article said, “If you completely ignore the manufacturer’s instructions or in fact use the test for something completely different, then you shouldn’t really be surprised if you get a silly result.”
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Yes, but deliberate use to avoid school? Sheesh
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Didn't you ever play hookie? I can't believe teachers honestly believed all those 'dentist appointments'.
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Nah, tricky to do at a boarding school, in fact undesirable as you could end up in sickers which was not pleasant!! :-)
I've heard the phrase though :-)
Joking aside, I read that whole classes are being laid off as a result of a positive test.
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>> Nah, tricky to do at a boarding school
Nah, dragged up on a council estate - comprehensive education!
Last edited by: bathtub tom on Thu 1 Jul 21 at 17:55
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I'd have given my eye teeth for Covid when I was at school, and so would all of my mates. Hours of football over the park and many more hanging out making a nuisance of ourselves.
What's not to like?
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.>> I'd have given my eye teeth for Covid when I was at school,
You and me both. I thrashed the life out of such things as stomach ache, cold, and the generic "I felt a bit sick".
Imagine the joy of a valid excuse and being too young to care about consequences.
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>> Yes, but deliberate use to avoid school? Sheesh
>>
Yeah imagine that.
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And don’t forget that adults can get paid to self isolate if they are in low paid jobs. Another incentive to fake a result.
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>> And don’t forget that adults can get paid to self isolate if they are in
>> low paid jobs. Another incentive to fake a result.
>>
>>
I think you have to take a lab test for that, not sure that works on the lab test ones?
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>> And don’t forget that adults can get paid to self isolate if they are in
>> low paid jobs. Another incentive to fake a result.
It's mostly people who've been instructed to self isolate after contact from test and trace. You need a T&T reference number to claim. There are also reports of a high rejection rate and as it's managed by individual councils there's not likely to be much consistency.
The flip side is people cannot afford to self isolate and either fail to report a result or fail to comply with test/trace's instructions.
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Looks like, as planned, all restrictions on social distancing and the such like is to be removed. New rules to be brought out for schools and care homes as well.
Legal restrictions removed on wearing masks on public transport, however it seems companies can still keep the restrictions as part of their t&cs?
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Masks are fundamentally to protect other people rather than the wearer, right?
Assuming so, most people won't wear them and some will feel clever about it.
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>> Legal restrictions removed on wearing masks on public transport,
>> however it seems companies can still keep the restrictions as part of their t&cs?
>>
Two well known companies requirements
www.ryanair.com/ie/en/useful-info/healthy-flying
www.easyjet.com/en/covid-19-travel-hub/safety-measures-wellbeing-and-mask-policy
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Masks will be recommended, thought not compulsory.
FFS, either we need them or we don't, if we do it is hardly a big inconvenience to wear one.
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>>if we do it is hardly a big inconvenience to wear one.
You wouldn't think so, but various riots around the world would tend to suggest otherwise.
>>either we need them or we don't
I'm actually ok with it. The masks won't do any harm, the Government would rather you wore them, but not enough to go to war over it.
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Its not going away, ever. We cant be restricted for ever.
There comes a time where we need to learn to live with it. Where personal responsibility based on your circumstances come to the fore.
Now is that time.
Me I'll wear a mask, and maintain personal space where & when I feel uncomfortable.
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This is really worth reading, though I imagine it's behind the firewall.
By all means email me if you want the text.
Delta variant and the third wave: Covid keeps changing but we can deal with it
As cases rise but admissions stay low, experts are daring to ask if this is as bad as it is going to get, writes Tom Whipple
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/delta-variant-and-the-third-wave-covid-keeps-changing-but-we-can-deal-with-it-5j2pcq693
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The first time i had to put a mask on was when I visited our doctor.We don't have the same doctors now the whole practice has changed.
I sat opposite her and I felt uncomfortable to speak and took the mask off.The doctor run out for assistance and demanded I put my mask back on.
I have been close to people and never felt uncomfortable without a mask.The more you look into this the more revealing it is becoming.I wish I had never gone done the rabbit hole because the trust from authorities in my case has gone.
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>> The first time i had to put a mask on was when I visited our
>> doctor.We don't have the same doctors now the whole practice has changed.
>>
>> I sat opposite her and I felt uncomfortable to speak and took the mask off.The
>> doctor run out for assistance and demanded I put my mask back on.
It's perfectly straightforward. You wear a mask to protect others from your own exhalations
If the mask is off that protection is lost.
I've had a couple of colleagues without masks get <2m from me sorting out IT problems. I'm double jabbed and the exposure was short so I lived with it. Personally, if I think I can help a colleague with an on screen problem (we had issues following a 'reset' of all desktops) then I'll don my mask.
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>>Took the mask off.
I think Bromp's comments are very balanced.
IMHO, if you took your mask off in a doctor's surgery, in a small consulting room without the doctors permission then you are evil scum. Considering the contents of the posts here, which you have read, I cannot put it down to idiocy any more. It is just pure selfish evilness.
That doctor could be the life line to any number of patients and putting her at risk puts her other patients at risk.
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>> I'm double jabbed and the exposure was short so I lived with it.
I'm double jabbed and I don't live with it at all. Not for a second.
To be honest I've always had a personal space thing and to an extent this is simply legitimising what I've always preferred anyway.
But I will not live with someone in my 2m space without a mask. Actually, preferably not at all, but certainly not without a mask.
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>> I sat opposite her and I felt uncomfortable to speak and took the mask off.The
>> doctor run out for assistance and demanded I put my mask back on.
Blimey, you must be REALLY ugly
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>> I sat opposite her and I felt uncomfortable to speak and took the mask off. The doctor run out for assistance and demanded I put my mask back on.
You are a bull*hitting fantasist like those whose drivel you espouse.
The above scenario played out only in your mind as doctors will see some patients without masks anyway as some patients (very few) have a genuine reason for not wearing one (in my experience usually patients who have very significant histories of traumatic abuse by a parent/ex-partner).
However, zippy's comments are also valid because for all you know the doctor's next patient might have been someone needing blood taken before their next round of chemo (not as unusual as you may think) who would really rather not catch Covid from a neurotic simplemind who doesn't know which of a spectrum of paranoias to focus upon.
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>> The first time i had to put a mask on was when I visited our
>> doctor.We don't have the same doctors now the whole practice has changed.
>>
>> I sat opposite her and I felt uncomfortable to speak and took the mask off.The
>> doctor run out for assistance and demanded I put my mask back on.
>>
>> I have been close to people and never felt uncomfortable without a mask.The more you
>> look into this the more revealing it is becoming.I wish I had never gone done
>> the rabbit hole because the trust from authorities in my case has gone.
You are a liar of very low IQ.
You make things up, but are so dense that you are unable to work out none of it makes sense.
In reality, one might say that you were speaking double dutch.
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A client ships essential but low cost products from the Far East. Looking through their details COGS I noticed a significant increase to inward shipping costs.
On asking (and these are approximate figures) a container used to cost £1,200 to ship to the UK. Now it's nearer £15,000.
Considering they can fill a container for £20,000 it's going to put a great deal of inflation in to the product's pricing.
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It's got some potentially interesting side effects though, hasn't it?
It'll change the business model for many different activities in many different companies.
Fundamentally I have always believed, and frequently been proven right, that change brings opportunity.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 5 Jul 21 at 21:49
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>> On asking (and these are approximate figures) a container used to cost £1,200 to ship
>> to the UK. Now it's nearer £15,000.
When was the cost £1,200?
What's the average over the years 2014-19?
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Just out of interest, at this moment a 20ft Container by sea between Chile & the UK is £1,200 assuming FCL and £267 per cbm assuming LCL.
Now that's 9,400nm which is a pretty damn long trip.
£15,000 seems like a ton of money. Though I also notice the the UK Chile route is resold by agents around the £8,000 mark.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 5 Jul 21 at 22:21
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For a minute there I thought you were saying that I was mildly interesting. After more than 20 years of abuse from you I came over all emotional.
Briefly.
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>> For a minute there I thought you were saying that I was mildly interesting. After
>> more than 20 years of abuse from you I came over all emotional.
>>
Oh dear god, I hope I didn't cause you any mental trauma, I came over all empathetic
Less than briefly
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>>When was the cost £1,200?
October to December 2020 (approx)
>>What's the average over the years 2014-19?
Depends very much on the US $ exchange rate and I am told, from several sources, between £1k and £2k - over the last 5 years.
>> Fundamentally I have always believed, and frequently been proven right, that change brings
>>opportunity.
Yes. It does. The supply chain has moved to Turkey and North Africa where a full container delivered is now £25k as opposed to the £35k from the Far East. The client doesn't think Turkey is viable long term though and they may need to go back to the Far East for much of their supply, hence the inflationary aspect, though who knows what the future holds re transport or any other pricing structure.
There are no raw material manufacturers of sufficient volume in the UK, though if the situation persists then someone may invest in the plant and growing the raw materials.
I had checked with other clients who ship from the Far East as well as colleagues and they have very similar experiences.
Last edited by: zippy on Mon 5 Jul 21 at 22:44
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It may just be supply and demand which has been knocked out of balance by Covid. Demand aand supply would have plumetted from April to December 2020, but rapidly increased in the last few months as developed (EU and US) economies have opened up.
This will have impacted supplies of almost everything coming from China - electricals, car components, white goods, cookware, industrial machinery etc etc. Many are still in demonstrably short supply.
It is entirely possible that major importers have long term shiping contracts in place which may run for 1-3 years. This being the case the increased demands on capacity are being made upon shipping which may already be ~80% committed.
I suspect the shipping cost issue will sort itsself out over the next 6 months!
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>>>but rapidly increased in the last few months as developed (EU and US) economies have opened up.<<<<<
Good to see you do not include the UK :)
........in developed economies..........
Last edited by: sherlock47 on Tue 6 Jul 21 at 11:44
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The owners of the Ever Given have paid some money and handed over a box of cigarettes, so their boat is being released tomorrow (Wednesday), that should bring the cost of shipping down a bit!
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-57719551
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I see the rules around children at school are changing, when you see that 98% of kids are negative you can see why.
The rules around double vaccined close contact are also changing, although I think you should be able to have a test after a couple of days, if you're negative then you can go about normally for everyone now. I'm not sure why you can't come out of self isolation early with a test. Unless the rules have changed?
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although I think you should
>> be able to have a test after a couple of days, if you're negative then
>> you can go about normally for everyone now. I'm not sure why you can't come
>> out of self isolation early with a test. Unless the rules have changed?
The length of isolation is is presumably set with some regard to the potential incubation period.
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>> The length of isolation is is presumably set with some regard to the potential incubation
>> period.
That will undoubtedly be the case but cheap and simple testing may change the game.
As I understand it, the incubation period is the time from exposure to becoming symptomatic. From my childhood it would be the time between the birthday party where an asymptomatic kid was hatching Chicken Pox and the appearance of my first spot.
The incubation for Covid leads to the cough, loss of taste and so on as symptoms after 7+ days.
An immune reaction may be present well before symptoms. If there's no immune response, as verified by a test, at the point one would be expected then the subject is not infected.
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I used the term incubation loosely. There's clearly a period before there is enough virus present to trigger a positive test.
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Yes I get that, just wondering why you couldn't take one at (for example) day 3.
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I would imagine that whatever it is that's causing the symptoms such as runny nose or sore throat will be clearly present in those areas. At 3 days they may not be unless your nose or throat is displaying the start of those symptoms. That's my take on it.
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Leeds Teaching Hospital Trust leaked mail (from the Independent)
"In an email to senior doctors on Wednesday morning, the trust’s clinical directors said: “Four patients with cancer are about to be cancelled today with very difficult and upsetting conversations. In critical care we’ve had six extra admissions, from four to 10 just yesterday.”
"The Leeds Hospital message, leaked to The Independent by concerned staff, said two of the hospital’s Covid wards were now full, adding: “It’s highly likely that we’ll need to open another Covid ward this week.
“We’ve got too many inpatients to manage this increase within [emergency specialty medicine] and the outlier numbers are very high – it’s affecting all our wards everywhere.”
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While in the Grauniad there is an article headed
"New Zealand not willing to risk UK-style ‘live with Covid’ policy, says Jacinda Ardern"
www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/07/new-zealand-not-willing-to-risk-uk-style-live-with-covid-policy-says-jacinda-ardern
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Key bit from that article, 'Different countries are taking different choices.' NZ and the UK are different places, no great surprise different choices are made.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Wed 7 Jul 21 at 15:58
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>> While in the Grauniad there is an article headed
>>
>> "New Zealand not willing to risk UK-style ‘live with Covid’ policy, says Jacinda Ardern"
replace "not willing" with "unable to because of the awful buck up we and Australia have made, and continue to make, over vaccinations". "Severe restrictions is our only defence and we are sheet scared Delta variant is going to get in"
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 7 Jul 21 at 17:00
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Approx 7% of the popuation in Oz and 12% in NZ have been fully vaccinated.
They have been very successful thus far in limiting covid spread, and hugely deficient and/or complacent in organising a vaccine rollout.
They cannot adopt the same policies as they UK - if the Delta variant (which is already there) gets into general circulation the consequences would be horrendous due to the speed of transmission.
So they have no choice but to have continued restrictions in place - and this may last for several more months until they rollout sufficient vaccines.
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>> may last for several more months
Into next year, probably the middle of next year for Australia.
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>> While in the Grauniad there is an article headed
>>
>> "New Zealand not willing to risk UK-style ‘live with Covid’ policy, says Jacinda Ardern"
"Not able to follow the same approach due to their previously isolationist approach coupled with no coherent vaccination approach, meaning that NZ will rely on isolation until they work out how to progress vaccinations significantly"
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I have just read an online article on the Daily Telegraph about what to do if you are about to go on a foruegn holiday and are contacted by trace and trace to isolate. There are 43 readers comments. Each of them is a variation on not to use the App, lie, not answer the phone, if you feel OK just go etc etc.
Am I naive in my surprise that this (albeit self selected) group are 100% prepared to undermine the system?
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We'll see more of it, of course it's always happened through out but I think more will dodge the system as people become more fatigued, tired with the rules and want to do their normal stuff.
All the isolation, form filling etc people will only do it for so long.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Wed 7 Jul 21 at 21:09
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Compliance with laws in this country relies upon general public support.
A law which is easily avoided (switch off the app) and not enforced effectively is truly pointless.
Those with a sense of social responsibility will comply.
Those who regard it a futile or stupid will simply ignore it with almost total impunity
IMHO it is becoming increasingly pointless!
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I've just applied for and received one of these. It's it's a QR, valid until midday 10/7/21 - two days!
I've also received it to my email with a note that says it's valid for thirty days but the QR still says two days??!
There was someone on R4 Today this morning saying the problem with the NHS was a lack of co-ordination and 'joined up thinking'.
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Its best to have a reason to apply for the covid pass. Like Mrs Z obtained her pass Tuesday for a day out at the Hampton Court Flower show on Wednesday.
The idea is that you check if your plans require one, and get it just b4 you need it.
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I see the Govt are moving away from the Inova test, which as reported here was rejected by the Americans.
www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/pm-under-fire-for-empty-promises-made-to-uk-biotech-firms-over-covid-tests_uk_60e553f5e4b099d899a1d4da?bea
Includes "Lateral flow tests made by Zhejiang Orient Gene Biotech, based near Shanghai, have been bought up at undisclosed cost by the Department of Health and Social Care."
I also hear that there may be a bit more dirt on Boris and Matt published tomorrow...no idea of the content though
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From next Thursday people who have been vaccinated are allowed to go to cinemas and gyms, and may be served inside restaurants and bars.
The unvaccinated cannot go to cinemas and gyms and may not be served inside restaurants and bars.
That'll be a further rush to be vaccinated by the young people then, who represent most of the current issue.
A sound move, I think.
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Just an anecdotal observation from Miss Z; there seems to be a lot of younger patients in ICU within her trust at the moment with Covid.
Last edited by: zippy on Sat 10 Jul 21 at 12:06
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Expected I would think, they are the biggest group with none/one jab.
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This week's newsletter from Wokingham council, which is not renowned for being sensationalist, had the headline "Cases staggeringly high in 20-29 year olds". In the article it also states the obvious "Those infected will likely be people who aren’t fully vaccinated." but they considered it newsworthy, and will make some wonder whether the decision to end all restrictions in a couple of weeks is a bit premature.
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>> "Cases staggeringly high in 20-29 year olds". In the article it also states the
>> obvious "Those infected will likely be people who aren’t fully vaccinated." but they considered it
>> newsworthy, and will make some wonder whether the decision to end all restrictions in a
>> couple of weeks is a bit premature.
As well as being unvaccinated or at least not fully vaccinated they're the age group most likely to be mixing and also taking risks as they're convinced it's a mild illness for their cohort.
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they're convinced it's a mild
>> illness for their cohort.
>>
In fairness, for the majority of them, they aren't wrong
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>As well as being unvaccinated or at least not fully vaccinated they're the age group most
>likely to be mixing and also taking risks as they're convinced it's a mild illness for their
>cohort.
Well, no-one can accuse the good folks of Basingstoke of taking risks. Even our flashers wear masks!
www.basingstokegazette.co.uk/news/19432457.police-search-highclere-woodlands-naked-man/
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The Dutch started lifted all restrictions about 2 weeks ago. Yesterday they have re-imposed some, as their figures hit 10k new cases today. Mostly the young and at the moment hospitalisations haven't gone up but there is always some lag.
www.government.nl/latest/news/2021/07/09/no-choice-but-to-take-summertime-measures-in-face-of-rapid-increase-in-infections
Their R rate is stated as 1.37 but that's 2 weeks old, it is estimated it's nearer 3.
Last edited by: smokie on Sat 10 Jul 21 at 17:08
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ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations
Here's a comparison between the countries vaccine role out.
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>>Mostly the young and at the moment hospitalisations haven't gone up but there is always some lag.
That is rather the point, surely? People catching COVID is inevitable, unimportant and uninteresting.
People being hospitalised at a greater rather than the health systems can cope with is a different matter.
If there is not the same strength of link between case and hospital, then opening p is the correct thing to do.
Latest positive test figure in the UK is 32,367. Latest hospitalisation is 563, What's that, like 1.7%?. At it's height daily hospitalisations were at 4,309.
Patients in hospital is 2,731 against a height in January of 39,254. Patients on ventilation is 417 down from a height of 4,077.
In the UK the significant increases are in the younger age groups, which are people who tend not to die so much.
It is a fact that COVID has not and will never go away. For as long as the health system can cope then it is of no particular importance. We need to learn how to live with it and not try to run away and hide in fear.
The world needs to learn how to grow some and cope.
AN interesting quote from the ONS.
"Almost all (96%) adults reported that they have now received or would be likely to accept a COVID-19 vaccine if offered. Of those aged 16 to 29 years, 90% reported positive vaccine sentiment, compared with 63% at the start of the vaccination programme in December 2020."
www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19roundup/2020-03-26
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"People being hospitalised at a greater rather than the health systems can cope with..."
Seems to me that allowing hospitals to fill up with covid cases that do not technically overwhelm them is a very bad idea.
What about the people who need surgery but have already been waiting months, or in some cases, years for treatment, but still can't get it? What about the cancer monitoring/diagnosis/treatment that will be delayed?
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What about the people who need surgery but have already been waiting months, or in
>> some cases, years for treatment, but still can't get it? What about the cancer monitoring/diagnosis/treatment
>> that will be delayed?
I think this is where the living with it comes in, we pick the least worse option. No course isn't going to bring pain.
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The NHS is no different to us - in a crisis it does what seems most urgent, not what is most sensible or thoughtful long term.
This means - treat someone who needs immediate treatment to avoid probable imminent death, leave those who may survive a few weeks, months, years to be dealt with later.
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>>
>> What about the cancer monitoring/diagnosis/treatment
>> that will be delayed?
I had my second cancer diagnosis in April 2020 - at the start of the covid thing. I have been having treatment and checkups, on time and on schedule ever since. Even when the S really hit the fan hospital wise.
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>> >> What about the cancer monitoring/diagnosis/treatment
>> >> that will be delayed?
>>
>> I had my second cancer diagnosis in April 2020 - at the start of the
>> covid thing. I have been having treatment and checkups, on time and on schedule ever
>> since. Even when the S really hit the fan hospital wise.
>>
I had a carcinoma removed in March 2020 and another one treated with radiotherapy in June this year. All the various consultations and appointments have been on time - no delays.
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Restrictions continued? - sooty123
