If a property is Registered in England, are the deeds needed for anything other than the interest
of the owner?
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hmlandregistry.blog.gov.uk/2018/02/19/title-deeds/
Blog by an LR staff member says no.
Mine were held by the original mortgagee from purchase in 1998 until I remortgaged several years later at which point they were returned to me.
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Mine have been invaluable in proving who owns the resposibility for boundary fences. One neighbour on a corner plot refused to accept they had two fences.
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"Mine have been invaluable in proving who owns the responsibility for boundary fences."
We moved to our present (then) new-built house in 1998. The building society (mortgage) held the deeds and then we asked that they hang on to them for safe keeping once the mortgage was paid off. Then, ten years or so ago, they returned the deeds saying that 'everything' was now held electronically with the land-registry. We now have the hard-copy of the deeds in the filing cabinet and, as Btt says, they can be extremely useful for checking boundary fences, measurements etc. I don't know, but I imagine that if you want to make such an enquiry of the Land Registry, there will be a fee involved.
Last year, we sold our late father's house - an ex-council semi that I think he bought in about 1980. I'm not sure if details of that house were held by the Land Registry as my sister dealt with the solicitor and the handover of the house but I do know that the new purchasers were very keen to see the hard copy of the deeds so that they could check ownership of boundary fences and the measurements of the boundaries.
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Very true
I do a few boundary dispute cases each year. Original deed plans from say the 1950s or earlier are very helpful in determining precisely where a boundary lies, especially if the plan is both to scale and dimensioned. Courts like that.
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In Scotland we have various specific standards that are required before any information relating to boundaries is inserted in the Title Deeds.
Mostly, measurements need to refer to a centre/mid point or front face of a fixed object like a wall/ gable/ fence etc.
Otherwise the boundaries are not inserted into the Register. However they will still obviously be accessible on original Deeds if solicitors want to fight it.
Last week I registered a property that had all rights to “mature manure” on the subjects.
Some of the Title Conditions/Burdens are quite funny to see now and of course, in 90% of the time, although they are on the Title, they are broadly ignored in reality.
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>> I do a few boundary dispute cases each year.
>> Original deed plans from say the 1950s or earlier are very helpful in determining precisely where a boundary lies,
>> especially if the plan is both to scale and dimensioned. Courts like that.
>>
Inlaws bought a 1930s bungalow and when they came to replace the fence at the bottom of the garden on the same alignment the neighbour complained.
( The garden was just a few feet longer on one side.)
Neighbour was a surveyer bla bla etc.
Inlaws had the deeds and they showed the original fence line.
The other bungalow was built in the 60s so I guess their claim was doomed.
Inlaws did not want to fight so the garden fence was realigned.
I doubt any future owners would identify the wrong alignment.
We sold the bungalow and no longer care.
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>> Mine have been invaluable in proving who owns the resposibility for boundary fences. One neighbour
>> on a corner plot refused to accept they had two fences.
>>
Without sounding stupid (ftb here) how does the map of the property indicate who looks after which fence? Ie the black and red line indicating the property boundary, how does that indicate responsibility of the fence?
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>> Without sounding stupid (ftb here) how does the map of the property indicate who looks
>> after which fence? Ie the black and red line indicating the property boundary, how does
>> that indicate responsibility of the fence?
AFAIK some plans have ‘T’ shaped marking along the boundary, indicating ownership. These are sometimes reflected on the Land Registry plan as well, though if they’re not referred to in the deeds themselves they have no legal standing I don’t think, and so aren’t on the LR.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 10 May 21 at 11:08
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"AFAIK some plans have 'T' shaped marking along the boundary, indicating ownership."
These marks were certainly present on the deeds for my late father's house and on the deeds for our house.
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>> "AFAIK some plans have 'T' shaped marking along the boundary, indicating ownership."
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>> These marks were certainly present on the deeds for my late father's house and on
>> the deeds for our house.
On my mothers deeds, the notation was "boundary ownership is indicated by a red line"
There was of course, only a black and white xerox copy available at the land registry.
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> AFAIK some plans have ‘T’ shaped marking along the boundary, indicating ownership. These are sometimes
>> reflected on the Land Registry plan as well, though if they’re not referred to in
>> the deeds themselves they have no legal standing I don’t think, and so aren’t on
>> the LR.
I've had a look at the electronic land registry map, there's no T marked anywhere. The previous owner stated we had responsibility for the left and the other two were 'don't know'. I'm guessing the solicitors would know, although I'm not sure where it would be originally stated?
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>> Without sounding stupid (ftb here) how does the map of the property indicate who looks after which fence?
I have always understood that no-one is actually legally responsible for maintaining a fence, regardless of who's boundary it may be on.
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Didn't they used to say that a good indicator is that the fence owner has the "ugly" side of the fence? The side with the bars and stuff? I might of course have that the wrong way round...
Last edited by: smokie on Mon 10 May 21 at 09:56
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"Didn't they used to say that a good indicator is that the fence owner has the "ugly" side of the fence? The side with the bars and stuff? I might of course have that the wrong way round..."
Yes - but I don't know how legally binding that is; maybe it's a gentleman's* agreement. When our (good) neighbour re-did his fence, we said that we didn't mind the 'ugly' side facing us because it was behind our shed and bins, and we didn't look out on it anyway. That's what was done, though I don't know how any future occupants of either house might view that arrangement.
* other sexes are available
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>> Didn't they used to say that a good indicator is that the fence owner has
>> the "ugly" side of the fence? The side with the bars and stuff? I might
>> of course have that the wrong way round...
That's just an unwritten law or a matter of courtesy as far as I'm aware. But I hope
you're right, because there quarters of the fencing around the house that we moved to not long ago has no 'ugly side' on our side.
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It’s partly as you say Clk Sec. However I understood that the other factor is that the fence sits on the responsible party’s land. This means that in a fence with posts, rails and boarding if you gave yourself the pretty side you should have posts up to the boundary. When you then board your side you lose the ground to the width of the posts to the neighbour.
In practice most boundaries are not that accurate but our son’s semi detached house has his boundary fence with the pretty side facing him and where the fence meets the house it is all inside his boundary. Posts and all.
Its a piddling amount but you do see tiny boundary disputes getting heated in the press from time to time.
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We put an L shaped extension on our semi detached. So down one side and across the back of the house right to the boundary. We obviously had to take the boundary fence down.
My next door neighbour complained that my builders had gone over the boundary. I was able to prove him wrong by showing the photos of when he had (accidentally) set my house on fire and exposed all the brickwork.
He shuffled away quietly and 11 years later, still hasn’t spoken to me.
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How did he manage to set your house on fire?
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Things have a tendency to "go on fire" in Scotland!
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>> Things have a tendency to "go on fire" in Scotland!
Aye Bobbie Burns.
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Deeds Needed? - Bromptonaut
