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Ongoing debate.
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 8 Apr 21 at 10:47
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"Covid vaccine: UK supply hit by India delivery delay"
www.bbc.com/news/uk-56438629
I hope the media don't try to make too much out of this. Though I don't have much hope.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 18 Mar 21 at 17:53
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Its possible the government are making too much of this to cloud the issues with the EU about their potentially restricting exports. Anything that shows we have supply problems can be used to take the heat off. Childish but possible.
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>> "Covid vaccine: UK supply hit by India delivery delay"
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>> www.bbc.com/news/uk-56438629
>>
>> I hope the media don't try to make too much out of this. Though I
>> don't have much hope.
i was more or less planned for I think, and one of the reasons they went for the 12 week spread up front, we are now meeting the second vacinatees. The high risk slice is covered and we are still on target for 100% coverage by end june
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...I think the delay was unexpected; up to yesterday the Government were fully expecting to get ahead of their target, rather than take a hit but still achieve it.
Nonetheless, whilst there is an awful lot of smoke and mirrors around the various arrangements for procurement and manufacture of the vaccine, there is some evidence to support that there are valid reasons behind the delay (and notably, the UK is not throwing its toys out of the pram - which is interesting given rather a lack of diplomacy in other areas).
What is more worrying is the games the EU is playing. It is difficult to reconcile these as anything but a diversionary and blame-shifting tactic by an embattled EU administration (and some individual countries).
In any circumstances, it was almost nailed on that the review bodies would come out with the conclusions about the AZ vaccine as they did, so why put a hold on vaccine roll-out? (I know that, in some cases, this was the individual countries' initiative, but all against a backdrop set by the EU).
BTW, I don't, like many, make an assumption that this is deliberately targeted at the UK, but, as a European country now outside the EU, with a rather better record to date, the narrative rather fits the EU's purposes - it could be anybody.
It would appear that the next phase of the vaccine wars will be an attack on AZ for not delivering some of the EU demand from UK sources. This is a rather odd tack to take, since they don't appear to be using much of the stockpile they've already had delivered, and, as I've posted when this first raised its head, I don't believe the EU/AZ contract (as made public, albeit redacted) plays well against their stance.
My original view as posted is admirably summarised recently here:
www.druces.com/astrazeneca-eu-contract-what-it-really-says/
...with much the same conclusion. I would only add that, though he might be right about avoiding a Brexit bargaining chip, my own view is that, at a late stage they realised that, as drafted, the hundreds of millions of Euros being invested up-front could well build (new) production facilities in the UK (whereas they would obviously want new-build in the EU). In addition, AZ had at that time already committed all its early (UK) production to the UK. Hence it made sense for both parties to have all the initial EU doses manufactured in new plants, built in the EU. It looks very much like a cheap and nasty late amendment was made that met AZ's requirements, but might well not have been what the EU wanted (and is certainly not what they say it is).
If it went to law, I suspect the EU would be hung out to dry (there are other clauses in the agreement that tend to support the summarised interpretation). Of course, it won't, because I suspect AZ won't have big enough balls to take on a supranational trading bloc, (and the EU legal advisors must surely see what others plainly can) but the reality is, one can only interpret this as yet another diversionary tactic.
It will be interesting to see how it plays out, but it doesn't put the EU in a good light at all.
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>>I don't, like many, make an assumption that this is deliberately targeted at the UK
It is targetted at anybody making them look bad by comparison and any feasible scapegoat. That is obviously the UK but not because they're the UK , if you see what I mean.
There are supply problems here also, but rather than witch-hunting when there are insufficient supplies each new delivery is trumpeted as a triumph.
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>> "Covid vaccine: UK supply hit by India delivery delay"
>>
Meanwhile another supply that is being ramped up.
The Indian factory making 6,000 syringes a minute
www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-asia-india-56456232
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Chile is about to resume vaccinating people by age without any special reason to be vaccinated.
So on Wednesday they start at 59 years and then do a year a day.
It has also vaccinated all teachers, all those with pre-existing conditions and by Tuesday will have finished all those in Basic Services (everything from bus drivers to trash collection).
Interestingly, but I suppose logically, my perfectly fit and healthy 19year old daughter will be vaccinated next week since we have elections coming up and she is one of those chosen to assist. (Here assisting an election is done a bit like jury service selection in the UK. It's not optional).
There's a couple of things screwing up the Chileans though;
The most badly affected age group are the 25 - 45s and they are a) thick and b) believe that Coronavirus doesn't apply to them.
Reading between the lines I think Sinovac (the Chinese vaccine) doesn't give protection very quickly and even then really needs the second dose though it does eventually reach a good level of protection. Infection rates are not falling (unsurprising) and hospitalisation rates are not falling (that is surprising).
I have no evidence, that's just my judgement. Consequently despite the impressive numbers I think vaccine protection is lagging the infection rate by about 3 weeks. T Which means we've got at least another 2 weeks of escalating s*** here.
The civil unrest is still here. It keeps erupting but is either suppressed by our military curfew (10pm) or tear gassed and water cannon'd. It is smaller than before, and doesn't seem to be reaching international news. But it is there, growing and a source of infections.
Life in the Third World is considerably bug'ring up my attempts to watch the 6 Nations in the pub with my friends. FYI, we were in the pub the other night and our group of 7 have all been vaccinated and are all strict followers of the precautions.
On which point, it is interesting that the strictest followers of the precautions are the hospitality trades and the worst are the average office workers and shoppers. (My perception).
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The high hospitalisation rates are a surprise, I would have thought that with people under 45 making up the bulk of those infected, it'd much less of a strain on the hospitals.
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It is a surprise and it's a bit difficult to work out.
If it was just hospital then I'd put it down to Chilean hypochondria (which is a thing). However, so many are in ICU that it can't be just that.
One piece of information not given here is the percentage of eligible people that have not been vaccinated. Either because they're refusniks or for some other reason.
Also, of course, there is the time delay between infection, hospitalisation, ICU and death. That is usually assumed to be around 28 days.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 21 Mar 21 at 14:27
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"It is a surprise and it's a bit difficult to work out."
Has anything been said about a possible change in the mix of variants?
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>> "It is a surprise and it's a bit difficult to work out."
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>> Has anything been said about a possible change in the mix of variants?
Yes, but nothing very authoritative. No variants are being reported on beyond the vague statement that there are some.
Chile has no land border with Brazil but it does with Peru. And Peru is not much better off than Brazil.
Also Chile has not closed the air border between Chile and Brazil though it did bring in restrictions about 10 days ago (PCR test on arrival, held in quarantine until the result).
Clearly though a major worry has got to be the strains in Brazil. And for as long as the virus is rampant over there then more and more variants will occur. In my opinion the situation in Brazil is a World health issue. Brazil should be totally locked off from the outside world until they get a grip.
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>>Has anything been said about a possible change in the mix of variants?
www.emol.com/noticias/Nacional/2021/03/24/1015894/Paris-seis-contagios-variante-brasilena.html
[The Health Minister Enrique Paris] said, "We do not advise going to Brazil at this minute because when returning the measures are very strict. We have several cases of people infected with the Brazilian strain, six, and it appears 14 or 15 infected with the British strain."
Doesn't seem like many but I guess the implication is that they'll spread fast. Track & Trace isn't really a thing here. They can just about find and test the members of the same household and that's about it.
14m currently quarantined (out of 19m pop). More to come I think. Infection rates have dropped over the last few days but the hospitals are screwed, and I guess there'll be a three or four week lag until the hospital situation improves even if the infection rate continues to decline.
The belief is that we should start to see impact from vaccinations about now.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 25 Mar 21 at 15:33
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Has there been a period of bad weather?
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Not really.
It is autumn here and so the weather is cooling off. This week has also been unusually cold for this time of year - but that means 23 / 24 degrees, not actually cold.
I'm pretty sure it will be down to the difference between two months of outdoor living at the beach and taking few precautions followed by return to a crowded city and indoor living.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 21 Mar 21 at 14:52
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Also whatever the science says, I think I would feel emotionally better if there was some sign of a vaccine induced reduction in the trends.
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I think this link will give you an English translation of the latest news report from a credible source.
You'll see the rates are down, but they always count less at the weekend. It would take a few days to know if that mattered or was significant.
translate.google.com/translate?sl=es&tl=en&u=https://www.emol.com/noticias/Nacional/2021/03/21/1015516/minsal-balance-casos-covid19.html
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Sounds like chile are roughly at the same place as us with vaccine role out. In the UK it seems to have flattened out the rate of infection, although in some places ( mainly in the midlands and the M62 corridor) it's increasing. I've not seen anything about increasing numbers in hospital, yet.
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Interesting. Any idea what it's doing to the hospitalisation or ICU rates?
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Uk rates are updated virtually daily here, if that helps.
coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare
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Thanks Crankcase, very useful
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Last time I looked they were on a steady decrease, although I don't think the lockdown in chile and the UK are similar at all.
Schools have only been back about 2 weeks, only handful of shops open, pubs haven't been open since god knows when. Not likely to open for a couple more months yet etc.
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Beaten to it by Crankcase, the daily stats are pretty good. Doesn't tell you how full the hospitals are nationally but many councils do cover the hospitals in their area, ours does anyway.
840k doses today across the UK.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Sun 21 Mar 21 at 16:35
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OH has just received her date for second jab through work.... only Easter Sunday at 7pm!
Oh well maybe the roads will be clear for the 30 mile round trip.
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A friend of a friend is having problems getting a vaccination. She is 59 so should have been called up to have it. However, when she tried to log into the NHS website to book a date for the first jab, as all over 50s are being exhorted to do, she is told she is not yet eligible for her second jab.
Investigation with her GP reveals that records show she had her first jab on 8 January in Oxford (about 60 miles away). Unfortunately, she didn't.
It appears that someone else's jab has been recorded against her NHS number.
GP says we can't do anything about it, you'll have to ring 119.
119 says we can't do anything about it, ring your GP.
Nobody will take responsibility for this and she can't book a jab because she has had it, according to "the system".
Any suggestions?
I have suggested a tweet to Matt Hancock to get publicity but for some reason she is reluctant.
Presumably she will soon get her appointment for the second jab but how does she sort it out?
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Sounds to me more like a problem within '119' than for her GP.
Escalate to Manager with her MP as the nuclear option?
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>> Sounds to me more like a problem within '119' than for her GP.
Isn't 119 the Test & Trace number?
You may well be right, but I'd have thought the GP was the place to go. They're right there, they have to treat you, and it's their responsibility to vaccinate you.
How they do that is their problem.
And also a local surgery is surely going to be more sensitive and thus reactive to local bad press?
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>> Isn't 119 the Test & Trace number?
It might have been originally but it seems to be used now for vaccination bookings as a back up to the website.
The way vaccination works seems to have gone through several versions. Initial stages were based on data from GP service but since the current on line booking service came in a month ago it seems to be driven by the user.
The problem here seems to be with centrally held data.
TBH it probably doesn't matter who does it, it just needs somebody to take ownership of the problem.
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I've just received a text message from my local surgery, telling me that a AZ second dose vaccine has been reserved for me and I will be invited to attend 11 weeks from my first vaccine. That should be in about 4 weeks.
What a service.
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I doubt that would happen with my local medical centre. They seem to have been doing their utmost to avoid COVID for the past year!!
I do occasionally still keep hearing of "newly eligible" people waiting to hear from their GP for their appointments, whereas I don't believe that's the way it happens any more for most. The NHS has been blinding over the vaccinaio9tn program but maybe some of the messages could be improved.
711000 plus in ONE day.
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The logistical achievement is quite impressive if other countries; performance is anything to go by.
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>> 711000 plus in ONE day.
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752,308 on March 20th.
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had a text from my surgery along the lines "due to a shipment, anyone over 50 who wants a vaccination in the next two days please contact"
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Yes, the delightfully named NHS Surrey Heartlands has drop in vaccination centres open all this week for over 50s or anyone else eligible. Not all open every day but Chertsey, Woking, Egham, Guildford and a couple of others.
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I unexpectedly got my jab yesterday afternoon. I was tipped off that after 3.30 pm the (not very to me) local community centre gives away its surplus shots to anybody who turns up. Astonishingly there was no queue and I was in and out within five minutes.
If anybody else who posts here is young enough not to be entitled to it, might be worth a try. They said they're open only the days when they have supplies, one or two days a week.
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Wed 24 Mar 21 at 16:45
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The daughter of a friend is a St John Ambulance volunteer..helping to steward this Saturday’s vaccination programme at a small local venue.
Apparently healthy 20+ yo are being jabbed. I’ve no reason to disbelieve him as he is up to speed with local volunteering organisations.
If correct, then that’s pretty amazing...one of the benefits of living in a rural low density population area.
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They're walking a fine line. As I understand it the European factories get the raw material from UK production sites. If it did come to a 'war', which it won't, they'd lose whereas the UK would only be slowed.
They're politicians trying to manage the media and cover their own a***s.
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I think so, it looks like they aren't in control of the situation and are looking for any issues to try and show that they are in control of something/anything, an easy PR win as it were.
Yes I believe the lupids used in the Pf/Btech jab are sole sourced from a plant in S Yorkshire.
Interesting that the gov has kept pretty much quiet about the whole and not said a great deal in public, probably the right way to go about things at the moment. I can't see how gobbing off would help.
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>>Interesting that the gov has kept pretty much quiet about the whole and not said a great deal in public<<
However earlier in the week Boris (on the the 17.00 Boris show) was his usual ebullient-self explaining how the UK had done 800k jabs in the previous 24hrs. That was followed by a comment on how well the UK were doing.
If that did not wind up the temperature on the EU frustrations on vaccine, I am not sure what would.
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Of course he'd talk about that, but that wasn't what I meant. I was talking about the vaccine export issue.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 26 Mar 21 at 22:11
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CNBC:
"Pfizer, whose vaccine has been used the most across the EU so far, reportedly said the region should not block the export of Covid shots because the company needs raw materials from the U.K. Imposing restrictions on the vaccines could lead the U.K. to retaliate by preventing ingredients from getting to EU plants."
I thought Boris had said a similar thing but now I can't find it.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 26 Mar 21 at 18:17
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It is the lipid (fat) which is used to coat the antigen particles or whatever the vaccine is. Export restrictions limiting supply to producing countries which do not restrict exports would cause fury in the EU Commission.
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>> I've just received a text message from my local surgery, telling me that a AZ
>> second dose vaccine has been reserved for me and I will be invited to attend
>> 11 weeks from my first vaccine. That should be in about 4 weeks.
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>> What a service.
>>
Having it later this week. Just nine weeks after my first jab.
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"Coronavirus: France accuses UK of 'blackmail' over vaccine exports"
www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56540149
Standard BBC incomplete reporting designed to attract their target audience - Daily Mail readers.
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Can anybody point me somewhere which reports on the various vaccines?
How many jabs, effectiveness, time scales, impact on new variants etc. etc.
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It's not quite what you asked for and it's US centric but here is a page with a lot of info about the vaccinations. You may need to sign up (free) to access it.
www.bloomberg.com/graphics/covid-vaccine-tracker-global-distribution/
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That's pretty good thanks.
I guess I can build on it by looking up each vaccine individually.
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#1 Daughter had her vaccination yesterday, and got the Pfizer jab.
They said she may get a headache or possibly aching joints and perhaps the arm would hurt.
She didn't get a headache or a hurting arm but has just spent a very unhappy and weepy night with very painful joints. She had the jab at 9:00am yesterday, the pain started around 9pm yesterday evening. It's now Saturday lunch time and it has mostly faded.
I'm sure it won't happen to everybody, perhaps not even many, but probably best to be aware.
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Jab best taken with Ibuprofen/Paracetamol.
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Got that now, thanks. Is it a fairly common effect then?
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Pretty common with AZ jag - less so with Pfizer.
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I knew I'd had the Pfizer jab - it made my arm stiff....
I'll get my coat
8o)
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Don't get it. Am I being dumb?
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>> Don't get it. Am I being dumb?
Allusion to another Pfizer product that makes something stiff.....
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Ohhhhh.
I *was* being dumb. Cheers.
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Zero after effects when I had my Pfizer jab 5 weeks ago. Administered 6pm and the following day I was out early to recce a long walk I’m leading next month.
A 70 yo acquaintance had his second jab today...this lunchtime they were queuing outside the Settle surgery for vaccinations. Less than 1/2 mile away they were queuing outside the Methodist church hall for vaccinations, and still being jabbed when I walked past at 17:30.
They must have a lot of stuff to use...no shortage here.
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>> Ohhhhh.
>>
>> I *was* being dumb. Cheers.
Not really, why would I even need to know.....
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Both my wife and I had a fairly grim reaction to the AZ vaccine. Sore arms and feeling more than a bit rubbish for 3-4 days after.
Sort of hangover feelings. Three weeks later, still not back on top form. Very tired every day. And worse really, gone off alcohol and food...
I hadn't been to the doctors or for any other interference for about two decades, and never felt ill, so this has just confirmed my suspicions about them and their like.
;-))
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I thought it was a reference to its country of origin.
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Wednesday for 2nd Jab - 1st Pfizer jab was fine apart from an area around the jab which ached for 3/4 days - otherwise fine.
So not expecting anything different come 10 am on Wednesday
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Another late call from the local vaccination centre. "2 no shows how quick can you get here?"
So that's myself and Mrs FC done done. Junior FC (shielded) had her 2nd scheduled done 15 minutes earlier and the other Junior FC on Saturday (Pharmacy Advisor).
I like Runfer felt a little 'fizzy' for quite a few days so well see how this one goes.
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1st Pfizer Dec 21st.
2nd Pfizer March 4th.
No effects.
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I think No FM has got it now, but a hint might have been that the "other Pfizer product" is sometimes called the "Pfizer riser".
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I'm an NHS vaccinator in my spare time and had the AZ vaccine last week. Worst fever ever that night, but mostly back to normal by lunchtime the next day. Still not feeling 100% though.
If this is the vaccine I'd hate to get Covid-19.
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"Ethnic jab gap 'not due to area or education'"
www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56564817
Interesting.
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Any anti-vaxxers like to give a reasoned explanation why they won't have the jab? Medical reasons excepted, of course.
No throw away one liners please. Just a reasoned explanation why you are/or will refuse the vaccination.
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I don't think you'll find many here, my feeling is that it is the 20 - 40 age group which are more likely to be anti-vax and it's because they don't see the need as (till recently anyway) they appear to not been at much risk - if they caught it it generally seemed to not be so serious, and why would they risk an unknown and untested drug against something that really barely affects them.
I think that's the way it went. And I think in a way they have a point. And also, although I am strongly pro the vaccine (and I can see nothing wrong with passports) I can't really think of a strong argument against the one above.
Though saying that, the handful in that age group I know are all likely to have it.
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I’m not even sure that age group (20 to 40) is actually more anti vax, they just (rightly) see the risk to them as so low that it’s not high on their agenda. You could call it apathy I guess, but not anti vax.
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Yes, Peter has better expressed what I meant - not really anti, more why should I bother?
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As you say, understandably so. I never ever used to bother with a flu vaccine for much the same reason.
However, if one did get flu, and it's happened to me perhaps twice, one knew to keep the hell away from everybody. Not that getting out of bed was really an option.
The difference this time is that it is new and has happened to the whole world in one go and an unprepared world at that.
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i believe that most people who don't want to be vaccinated don't have a well defined reason, they just dont like the prospect of someone sticking a needle in their arm. Illogical it might be but I guess they are entitled to thier opinion and after all vaccination is not compulsory.
People hold illogical views in all sorts of ways. I know people who won't fly or go in lifts or travel on escalators for example. There are penty of people who won't donate blood for no coherant reason.
At the end of the day if they don't want it it is up to them. They don't have to explain. Incidentally I don't think calling all those who dont want to be vaccinated "anti-vaxxers" is particularly helpful. It impplies that they are against the anti-vaccination program in general. Undoubtedly there are a few who want to make it some sort of political issue but most simply don't want to be vaccinated themselves and dont care what others do
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A previous and close colleague of mine, though many incarnations, has recently come out of the closet as anti-vaxxer, conspiracy theorist, Trump and Farage supporter and EU hater.
All new as far as I can see. He has no coherent reasons but does recycle all the internet fallacies; mercury in vaccines, unnecessary if you live healthily, big Pharma conspiracy, Government subjugation of the people, DNA altering, etc. etc.
I struggle with it quite a bit but decided that I'll deal with it one way or the other the next time we're face to face over a beer. He is [was perhaps] a valued and long term friend.
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>> A previous and close colleague of mine, though many incarnations, has recently come out of
>> the closet as anti-vaxxer, conspiracy theorist, Trump and Farage supporter and EU hater.
Perplexing isn't it.
One I know, not a high flyer but once a perfectly down to earth individual, is now regurgitating anything and everything as "proof" there's something big going on and they are all in on it.
The latest is a press picture of a police car, vandalised in the recent "kill the bill" commotion, that is on record as having an expired MoT. Police cars are exempt from MoT's so this, the story goes, isn't a real police car just a prop and the whole thing is staged to justify oppressive state action.
A quick look at the MoT status on gov.uk explains it - the car, coming up 4 years old, has almost certainly never been MoT'd (the mileage is "unavailable") but was issued with a certificate a few days before its third birthday last July which expired 6 months later. Presumably a system-generated 'Covid' extension which has now run out, since real MoT's last 12 months.
He didn't come up with this 'proof' himself, just shared it with his comments. It took me 2 minutes to debunk, not that I would have believed it anyway.
He says people (like me) should be more sceptical and not simply accept the Covid myth, the vaccine, the restrictions etc, yet he is totally unsceptical about these incredible explanations, requiring the complicity of scores of unconnected people, for events that aren't really hard to account for.
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>>He says people (like me) should be more sceptical and not simply accept the Covid myth, the vaccine, the restrictions etc,
That particularly annoys me. The idea that they put forward that anybody who doesn't blindly agree with them is simply a willing slave to the Government.
The ridiculousness of that statement infuriates me. Especially when they are blindly following crackpots themselves.
A certain amount of anti-vaxxers are driven by ignorance or instability, but my friend is most certainly not that. Not uneducated, not stupid (or at least he wasn't) but it's like he's suddenly found a cult that he's happy with and wants to live within.
I find it very similar to the attitude possessed by a Jehovah's Witness friend of mine - anything can be explained and that explanation, however ridiculous or illogical, will be accepted in defence of their belief in God. And he smiles sympathetically as he gently explains to me why I am wrong.
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>> I find it very similar to the attitude possessed by a Jehovah's Witness friend of
>> mine - anything can be explained and that explanation, however ridiculous or illogical, will be
>> accepted in defence of their belief in God. And he smiles sympathetically as he gently
>> explains to me why I am wrong.
>>
Just tell him that god is an alien, and as a believer the aliens will harvest his organs first.
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Over the very many years we've been friends I've tried everything, from the ridiculous to the insane, I've never got past his smiling faith.
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Going through something similar, FM. I've just discovered that 2 family members are advocates of this "news" source - www.ukcolumn.org/
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>> Going through something similar, FM. I've just discovered that 2 family members are advocates of
>> this "news" source - www.ukcolumn.org/
Oh my dear Lord. How on earth does something like that get to exist? What a pile of ridiculous dross.
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They read it because they "don't trust the BBC".
Last edited by: John Boy on Tue 30 Mar 21 at 18:08
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I don't know whether that makes me want to laugh or cry.
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>> They read it because they "don't trust the BBC".
which is the propaganda machine of the government. Except when it exhibits extreme left wing bias.
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>> >> They read it because they "don't trust the BBC".
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>> which is the propaganda machine of the government. Except when it exhibits extreme left wing
>> bias.
As the Labour Party and the Tory party both claim it is biased against them, and the rest of the parties claim they are not represented, I am quite happy with its editorial direction.
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"As the Labour Party and the Tory party both claim it is biased against them, and the rest of the parties claim they are not represented, I am quite happy with its editorial direction."
Yet, bizarrely, even the BBC itself recognises that it has a left-wing bias.
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>>Yet, bizarrely, even the BBC itself recognises that it has a left-wing bias.
Does it say so? Who is the BBC in this context?
Of course it has bias, it is a composite of the people who work there. I concluded years ago that it has its own bias, a generally liberal BBC one. It's always been the case that both Labour and the Tories and their respective supporters have each complained that it was biased against them and more or less with equal weight.
I'm a fan of public service broadcasting and by implication of the licence fee or at least of tax funding. Commercial pressures have not improved the quality of the BBC's output but that's my subjective opinion.
Paraphrasing Churchill, it's the least reliable source of news except for nearly all the others.
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As the Labour Party and the Tory party both claim it is biased against them, and the rest of the parties claim they are not represented, I am quite happy with its editorial direction.
>>
That's pretty much what I think too.
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There is a theory among certain epidemiologists, that giving millions of people a single dose of a two-dose vaccine, who are still able to contract Covid-19, leaves open the possibility for the virus to 'learn' from the hosts weak (compared to a full vaccine) immune response and thereby mutate into something far deadlier.
I've not been jabbed (I don't do vaccines) but my wife has. She could still contract the virus which could mutate as per the above, and end up killing me.
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>> I've not been jabbed (I don't do vaccines) but my wife has. She could still
>> contract the virus which could mutate as per the above, and end up killing me.
I don't imagine it working quite like that. The mutations happen anyway, but the vaccine-resistant ones successfully infect a bigger proportion when the former prevalent ones die out/are suppressed by the vaccine.
The more cases there are, the more the virus reproduces and the more mutations there are. So if cases are reduced by the vaccine, then so is the number of mutations. It's not a cases of the virus trying to infect your wife, finding its prospects limited by her newly made anti-bodies, and deciding to mutate.
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>>It's not a cases of the virus trying to infect your wife, finding its prospects limited by her newly made anti-bodies, and deciding to mutate.
Sure, I get that, but the idea is that the weak/er immune response in people given just the one dose of the (as I say) a two-dose vaccine, could actually help the virus - facing its demise due to the lockdown plus the vaccine, to mutate.
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I've not seen that version before Dog, is is documented or is it your own idea?
Last edited by: smokie on Tue 30 Mar 21 at 11:54
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It's a theory discussed by a number of qualified medicos etc, they equate Covid-19 to WW3, which it is if you think about it.
The whole world is involved in a war against the virus. Quite scary really, or perhaps I've been watching too many sci-fi films.
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"Sure, I get that, but the idea is that the weak/er immune response in people given just the one dose of the (as I say) a two-dose vaccine, could actually help the virus - facing its demise due to the lockdown plus the vaccine, to mutate."
There is nothing wrong with what you are saying, Dog. As JVT might put it, more viruses will be able to jump over a 2ft hurdle than a 3 ft one - and go on to potentially mutate.
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I see the BAME community are being told they took the risk by coming to this country, so now they should take the risk of having the vaccine.
Reckon that could put more off than encourage to have it by calling it a risk?
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>> Who is saying that?
I've not heard it said but it's a standard response to even third generation BAME Brits.
David Lammy fielded a caller on LBC who told him he was not English;
www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/29/david-lammy-praised-for-response-to-lbc-caller-who-said-he-was-not-english
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Just listened to David Lammy MP on LBC, fielding lots of calls from black and mixed race callers, who say they won't take the vaccine because of racism.
They say that racism is a much bigger problem than covid, therefore they won't have the jab because they won't trust the government to tell the truth until they are more vigorous in the fight against racism.
I am sorry if I don't understand. Why is racism and the Covid jab linked?
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>> I am sorry if I don't understand. Why is racism and the Covid jab linked?
Structural/Institutional Racism = lack of trust of authority?
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>> They say that racism is a much bigger problem than covid, therefore they won't have
>> the jab because they won't trust the government to tell the truth until they are
>> more vigorous in the fight against racism.
Well if they wish to ostracise and marginalise themselves further than they are now thats exactly the right way to go about it.
Surely they should embrace the fact that everyone will be offered the vaccine purely on medical need and not race?
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 30 Mar 21 at 13:49
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>>They say that racism is a much bigger problem than covid, therefore they won't have the jab because they won't trust the government to tell the truth until they are more vigorous in the fight against racism.
What stuff and nonsense. Do they also apply to that to the conspiracy that is zebra crossings? How about hospitals in general?
Some people are not having the vaccine for whatever reason but as they feel that 'reason' wouldn't stand up to scrutiny they are then making up a trendy excuse.
Is the whole idea that you cannot deal with any danger until the biggest danger is gone? Ridiculous.
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>> What stuff and nonsense. Do they also apply to that to the conspiracy that is
>> zebra crossings? How about hospitals in general?
I don't think any of us here, as a pretty much exclusively white, male and older, group are going to throw much light on the racial disparity. Certainly not from the start point above or that voiced by @Zero.
The particular issue seems to be older people from Africa and the Caribbean; the Windrush Generation.
What we need are their answers and people, perhaps from their own community, to address those in a sympathetic way. Hopefully somebody in Government is on that task,
And, before anybody cites it in support, no the report from the Commission on Race and Ethnic Disparities doesn't help. In spite of today's headlines fed by a Press Release from Number 10, it's not published for another 40 minutes or so. It's already controversial and I expect 'discredited' to be added very soon.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 31 Mar 21 at 11:10
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>> And, before anybody cites it in support, no the report from the Commission on Race
>> and Ethnic Disparities doesn't help. In spite of today's headlines fed by a Press Release
>> from Number 10, it's not published for another 40 minutes or so. It's already controversial
>> and I expect 'discredited' to be added very soon.
>>
>>
I can't say I know much about it, but why would it be discredited before it's even been published?
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>> I can't say I know much about it, but why would it be discredited before
>> it's even been published?
The way in which publication was handled is, to my mind, unusual.
Normally if an official Commission is to publish a report it'll be scheduled for release at a particular time. Depending on the report's origin/status timing might be tied to it being 'tabled' in Parliament.
Before publication embargoed copies will be issued together with a fairly neutral press release. The media will produce some 'informed speculation'.
In this case it looks as if those points Number10 wanted to lead in todays news were fully detailed in advance. The Commission's Chair was in the coveted 08:10 slot on the Today programme.
While that methodology may have suited No 10's agenda (see headlines in Mail, Telegraph) it also meant that reputable organisations, eg The Runnymede Trust, as well as Unions and Opposition had more than a whiff too.
Given that the report denies stuff that was given in evidence to it it's not difficult to see why it's being potentially discredited was easy to foresee.
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>> The way in which publication was handled is, to my mind, unusual.
OK, it's Grauniad analysis so folks might want to apply scepticism but:
www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/31/brazen-government-media-strategy-muddies-detail-race-report
And Steve Bell's take:
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2021/mar/31/steve-bell-commission-race-ethnic-disparities-report-cartoon
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 31 Mar 21 at 23:07
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I think criticism of the timings of how the report was released is pretty thin, at best, on which to base criticism of this report.
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>> I think criticism of the timings of how the report was released is pretty thin,
>> at best, on which to base criticism of this report.
The question, I think, was how it might be possible to see it as discredited before publication.
The method of its release explains why it was possible.
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Of course it's possible, but there's nothing to say the crisitism is valid or reasonable. If people want to find faults they will.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 2 Apr 21 at 02:51
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>> Of course it's possible, but there's nothing to say the crisitism is valid or reasonable.
>> If people want to find faults they will.
Yes but there are ways to introduce things. This government, in their desire to control how stuff appears, have the worse PR team in history.
For example. Knowing the contents of the report, and the likely reaction of some, the findings could have been (pre)revealed with consultation/support of the various race groups/parties.
Instead we get the spin first, then the report. The Spin kills the legitimacy of the report.
Same thing with the report into policing of the vigil.
Tory PR department needs a kick up constituency
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>> For example. Knowing the contents of the report, and the likely reaction of some, the
>> findings could have been (pre)revealed with consultation/support of the various race groups/parties.
I wonder whether that avenue was explored but support was not forthcoming.
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Knowing the way this government works, I doubt it was even considered.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 2 Apr 21 at 02:51
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Maybe it's just me then, oh well.
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>> Maybe it's just me then, oh well.
If your current role doesn't work out, there is a place for you at Tory PR department. ;)
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>> >> Maybe it's just me then, oh well.
>>
>> If your current role doesn't work out, there is a place for you at Tory
>> PR department. ;)
>>
Do they offer WFH?
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No you need to be immersed in the tory swamp part of the collaborative process in house.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 2 Apr 21 at 02:51
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>> Knowing the way this government works, I doubt it was even considered.
Guardian is reporting that the No 10 Race Adviser who nearly resigned in February has jumped for real now:
www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/apr/01/no-10-race-adviser-resigns-day-after-uk-structural-racism-report-published
(other news sources are also available)
Not clear whether it relates directly to yesterday's report. He is apparently staying on until April as he's involved in work to improve vaccine take up in BAME groups.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 1 Apr 21 at 10:14
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>> Just fyi BAME is no longer an acceptable term.
>>
>> www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/mar/29/boris-johnsons-race-commission-to-scrap-use-of-bame-label
Of no great import in the overall scheme of things but neither that article nor the Commission suggest BAME is unnacceptable, just that it's not useful. As the Guardian article makes clear that's been a contention in some places and some minority groups for many years.
Others will say it's still useful as a shorthand for all ethnic minorities but that it covers a group which are actually far more diverse than the White majority.
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It may not be of import to you, but my daughter was recently brought to tears because she got picked up over her use of it in a work-related conversation with a black person who took offence. She is one of the least racist people you would meet.
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>> It may not be of import to you, but my daughter was recently brought to
>> tears because she got picked up over her use of it in a work-related conversation
>> with a black person who took offence. She is one of the least racist people
>> you would meet.
I meant it was of no import in this conversation. Goodness knows why anyone would take offence at a term that, even if it's now challenged, has been in use for around 10 years.
Might actually be longer. I think I first heard it in diversity training following the Macpherson report which was delivered to us just after 9/11. Overflights of London, visible from the building on Millbank used for the session were just restarting.
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I think it is considered too broad or lazy a term. It certainly seems to be on the banned list where she worked. I'm not sure if it has a direct replacement.
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"I think it is considered too broad or lazy a term"
Difficult to keep up, isn't it.
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It's certainly a broad term and one that needs unpacking and I guess if used carelessly it can cover for assumptions. On the other hand if its meaning is clear and agreed then subject to those who are 'BAME' being comfortable it remains a useful piece of professional shorthand.
My employer, or rather the national federation of which it is part, retains a BAME network. At least for now. One of my ex-managers in the Civil Service was a spokesperson and poster person for their group although I've an idea they used some other term.
I'm not sure what alternatives exist and a 'balkanised' set up of lots of minority groups and sub groups doesn't seem viable.
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I'm sure another term/phrase etc will evolve out of this one, which itself came from another phrase, which came from etc etc.
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My family is not entirely white. Several of my uncles/aunts/cousins are either from the Windrush Generation themselves or are children of them.
I know a great deal about their experiences and thoughts. So best you stop making assumptions.
They have no more trouble with the health system and hospitals in general than I do. They do suffer from racism though much less than there used to be. Actually they say a lot less inadvertent racism but increased deliberate racism from a few. In any case they don't associate it with a harmful vaccine.
They don't deliberately seek offence, don't believe in conspiracies and with the exception of one either have had or will have the vaccine. The one who will not I am not sure about the reasons, it seems to be related to his Mother [white] and her religious beliefs not his Father [not white].
You seem to speak a great deal about what various ethnic minorities think, experience or feel, and you seem to do it with feelings of authority on the subject.
My experiences within my family suggest that you are mostly wrong.
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>>My family is not entirely white...
I did one of those DNA ethnicity test thingies a few years back.
All I can say is that my ancestors must have been great travellers and extremely gregarious while doing so...
;-)
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I think I'll just ignore the personal gibe.
>> My experiences within my family suggest that you are mostly wrong.
I don't think you've mentioned your Windrush relatives before but if you did then I apologise for my oversight.
The fact however remains that, whatever the experiences of the relatives you mention there is a disparity by race for vaccine take up. I stick by my observation that, irrespective of individual exceptions, the make up of this forum does not lend itself to fruitful answers to that problem.
Neither your response or Zero's advances the issue. As I said before hopefully somebody in authority is on the case otherwise pools of infectivity will remain.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 31 Mar 21 at 14:31
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>>I think I'll just ignore the personal gibe.
I don't really think writing about how you'll ignore something is the same as actually ignoring it.
>> there is a disparity by race for vaccine take up
Yes, but I did not believe that is related to the claim that because it is perceived that the Government has not acted strongly enough on racism then they cannot be trusted on the vaccination. That is too direct a link and too simplistic. Not to mention to convenient for some.
It is interesting that the obvious parameters of wealth and location do not seem to be particularly significant.
>> the make up of this forum does not lend itself to fruitful answers to that problem.
You are attributing your life experiences to everybody. You have lived a life of Civil Service shielded comfort and and isolated security. Many have not.
>>Neither your response or Zero's advances the issue.
I'd say that both are opinions on a subject and the more opinions the better. Your habit of discarding the ones that don't suit you is irrelevant. You very much prefer those opinions which show a nice simplistic link of failure within the Establishment to action or occurrence within a minority.
It is mostly not that simple.
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>> I don't think any of us here, as a pretty much exclusively white, male and
>> older, group are going to throw much light on the racial disparity. Certainly not from
>> the start point above or that voiced by @Zero.
My brother in law is Windrush generation, and I have more experience of the NHS than you do, so I have you beaten on both scores and provides my argument with validity
At no point did I say that Racial discrimination does not exist - it does, However the UK NHS is probably the most least example of institutional racism in the world, and the Vaccine programe its the most visible example of that.
The Vaccine programme is a invalid argument to hijack about racism, and anyone who says anything else is talking ba lls regardless of race creed or colour.
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 31 Mar 21 at 17:42
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>> My brother in law is Windrush generation, and I have more experience of the NHS
>> than you do, so I have you beaten on both scores and provides my argument
>> with validity
I'm not sure why, other than 'a bit of sport', you and NoFM2R feel the need to be so combative about this.
You didn't say Racial discrimination doesn't exist. On the other hand neither your post at 13:49 yesterday nor this one suggest you're open minded about the possibility that racism (real or perceived - it doesn't make any difference) might be influencing take up in the Caribbean and African ethnic minority groups.
It's surely axiomatic that whatever those concerns the best way to address them is by a research/campaign initiative in those communities.
It might also be the case that such an initiative would be one of those cases where the exemptions in equalities legislation could be used so that the research/campaign team has a better chance of achieving engagement.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 31 Mar 21 at 18:08
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>
>> You didn't say Racial discrimination doesn't exist.
My comment was very on point about vaccination specifically
>> or perceived - it doesn't make any difference) might be influencing take up in the
>> Caribbean and African ethnic minority groups.
If it does it exists only in the mind of those who are looking to link it racism* Anti vaccination is however linked to anti establishment, anti anything, fake social media, apathy and religious dogma (despite being told by their religious leaders its safe)
Doing so does damage to the cause of eliminating racism. It dilutes the real problem and turns the message into "noise"
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 31 Mar 21 at 18:19
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>> If it does it exists only in the mind of those who are looking to
>> link it racism* Anti vaccination is however linked to anti establishment, anti anything, fake social
>> media, apathy and religious dogma (despite being told by their religious leaders its safe)
We need to find out what 'it' is and deal with it.
Is there a religious dogma at large in the Windrush Generation?
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The windrush generation* is not the problem either in numbers or attitude.
African, Asian or Far Eastern is really anti by Tradition or Religion. And the biggest issue for transmission due to environment.
*They are generational, with widely varying attitude by generation.
Specifically keeping this on subject about vaccination attitudes. Just in case you wish to widen this to everything else which you have a tendency to do,
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>> The windrush generation* is not the problem either in numbers or attitude.
Focussing on vaccine attitudes using percentages of over seventies vaccinated as a proxy for attitude.
I *think* this sub thread started with NoFM2R's post at 15:26 on Monday which linked to a BBC news item:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56564817
On those numbers the lowest uptake for vaccination is Black African 59% and Black Caribbean 69%.
While Africans with a huge variety of cultural traditions are the most reluctant (or hardest to reach) those numbers don't exactly exonerate the Windrush Generation.
But the only way to find out is in the communities concerned.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 31 Mar 21 at 21:50
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>>As JVT might put it
Interesting, I'll check him out later: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Van-Tam
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"As JVT might put it"
JVT is the much-respected medic who, in the tv bulletins, frequently made sporting and other analogies.
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>>JVT is the much-respected medic who, in the tv bulletins, frequently made sporting and other analogies.
As my wife just pointed out to me ... Everybody knows who J Van-Tam is, except me :o)
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JVT went to the same school as me, albeit not in the same time frame.
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>>There is nothing wrong with what you are saying, Dog. As JVT might put it, more viruses will be able to jump over a 2ft hurdle than a 3 ft one - and go on to potentially mutate.
As opposed to how many might jump over no hurdle at all?
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>>Sure, I get that, but the idea is that the weak/er immune response in people given just the one dose of the (as I say) a two-dose vaccine, could actually help the virus - facing its demise due to the lockdown plus the vaccine, to mutate.
Bucket science, exactly what antivaxxers love. PoS, as is expected from that world.
So, given that the flu vaccine is less effective than even one dose of a covid-19 vaccine, I presume that we should stop giving it, because we're making it stronger and more able to kill people?
Or is it that if only 50% of people have the virus then it will be more able to mutate? Surely the more people who have it then the more it will mutate? Look at Brazil.
Or is there some belief that if you intentionally leave weaker versions in place then they will prevent the stronger one appearing? Which is of course exactly the opposite of what happens. In any case, any idea how they do that bearing in mind that immunity levels from a vaccine are higher than from surviving a dose.
Or that the vaccine will fight harder once it realises there's nt much of it left?
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>> Or that the vaccine will fight harder once it realises there's nt much of it
>> left?
The only mechanism I can think of that might fit in to Dog's scenario is that a "weak" vaccine might not kill the virus, but might somehow mess up its reproductive abilities so that its children are more likely to be mutants IYKWIM.
But vaccines don't poison viruses. They stimulate the body to fight the infection. We're talking T-cells and antibodies here, not drugs. But I'm out of my depth of course.
Maybe there's some sort of parallel with people taking half a course of antibiotics, which allows the strongest strains of bacteria to out-compete the weaker ones, resulting in greater antibiotic resistance. But viruses aren't bacteria. Viruses aren't even alive by the normal definition. They have no cells, they don't respire, they can't reproduce on their own.
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I'm out of my depth too but the stuff I've been looking at says that interferons are suppressed by the virus and they are the things which infected cells message uninfected cells to tell them to up their defences.
So some of the therapies are looking at preventing this suppression by some means. Specifically in the one I am most interested by inhaling from a nebuliser so it gets straight to the lungs.
It'd be fascinating if only I understood it.
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"I'm out of my depth too"
I wouldn't get too bogged down in the detail and mechanisms involved because these mechanisms have a tendency to interact and are difficult to predict. At the heart of what is happening, is the beautiful and basic truth of Darwinian biology - variation (mutation) followed by a process of natural selection; the fittest will survive and go on to reproduce. Darwinian principles apply just as much to us, and to our survival, as they do to the virus and its survival.
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No one knows for sure how this Covid thing is going to pan out. Will we experience a 3rd wave fairly soon, it will certainly be back later this year. But what strain, UK/SA/Brazil, etc.
One thing is for sure, a lot of people are going to suffer, what with the high unemployment to come after the furlough scheme ends, the high incidence of anxiety and depression due to the lockdown, and the £billions Mr. Sunak has doled out in the last 12 months.
My OP was just a theory discussed by professional people in the ethernet somewhere. I neither believe nor disbelieve it but, it makes me think ... what if?
I'm not an anti-vaxxer as such, it's just that I've been fortunate in not having had to visit a GP since 1992, and I ain't gonna start now :)
I/we do lead a healthy lifestyle and tend to rely on traditional remedies where possible. I had a shingles outbreak a few years ago and managed to stop it in its tracks by using a combination of 'erbs, amino acids, and natural antivirals.
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>>No one knows for sure how this Covid thing is going to pan out
I'll stack a decent chunk of bitcoin how it will pan out.
Few more waves, none as big as spring 2020 and Jan/Feb 21 as far as blocking hospitals go, followed by endemic infection where SARS-CoV-2 remains in circulation pretty much forever nailing old farts who aren't vaccinated (unless they manage to avoid it via social distancing/hand washing)
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>> SARS-CoV-2 remains in circulation pretty much forever nailing old farts who aren't vaccinated
Similar to seasonal flu then, which nails many an old fart like me (68) The last time I contracted flu was back in '68.
All 4 of us came down with it, but I dare say my immune system was a tad stronger when I was 16 :)
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>>Similar to seasonal flu
Not really. Flu doesn't kill >100k during a period of population lockdowns and social isolating.
Flu vaccine is also a but crap compared to the Covid ones by virtue of Flu's much greater mutability.
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Are flu vaccines traditional attenuated vaccines, or similar to the DNA/RNA vaccines?
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Thank you, Googie. Very interesting :)
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>>(I don't do vaccines)
Oh dear God. I don't do vaccines. WTF does that mean?
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I wonder how Smallpox and polio have been virtually eliminated?
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"|I wonder how Smallpox and polio have been virtually eliminated?"
There's some information here .....
polioeradication.org/news-post/poliovirus-vs-smallpox-containment-an-interview-with-david-heymann/
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A chimp observing hospitalisations and deaths following vaccine roll out in the UK would come to the conclusion that even a single dose is having a major impact.
A simple comparision of the UK with a "control group" (basically the rest of the EU) would reinforce the conclusions.
Viruses continually mutate. Most are harmless and fail to reproduce. Some reproduce and do no harm. A very few may reproduce, be harmful, and be resistant to the vaccine.
Viruses are not great intellects! There is no virus materplan! If it mutates in dangerous way and is resistant to the vaccine, it will get you whether or not you have been vaccinated.
Early analysis suggests the vaccine materially reduces the extent to which those vaccinated can transmit the virus.
"Don't do vax" are predominantly a risk to themselves rather than anyone else. They are to be pitied, not ridiculed!
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More importantly, anyone else get a sunburnt nose & forehead today ? And a Eurofighter singed my hair. Bloomin RAF.
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Brazil seems to be climbing steadily.
www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/brazil/
3,668 deaths yesterday!
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Brazil is a basket case. It always has been, but now it is dealing with the virus and a nutter in control.
News reports about the Government in Brazil are always difficult to interpret because there is so much corruption, bias, and inner dealings that one can't always be sure why something has happened.
Still, why ever it has happened, the Home Minister, Foreign Minister and the heads of the Army, Navy and Airforce have all either quit or been ousted one way or another. They're on their fifth Health Minister since they keep falling out with Bolsonaro
Bolsonaro is such a complete nightmare that I am only surprised Farage hasn't popped up there giving a speech in support of him.
Aside from maintaining that the entire COVID thing is made up, is no worse than a cold, and that Brazilians should stop whining about it and get on with their lives he is very much into praising the previous dictatorship.
A couple of years ago he organised a National Day of celebrations of the original coup in the mid sixties.
Even more worrying Gen Walter Braga Netto, the new Minister of Defense, said that the coup had pacified the country at a time of threat to peace and democracy and should be celebrated.
Bolsonaro's popularity has fallen a lot, even his Trump/Farage populist statements aren't getting the support they used to. I do worry about how far he is prepared to go. Will he try to use the military to extend his Presidency? He'd almost certainly fail, there's a lot of Brazilians and they're well-armed and very stroppy. But he might try.
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I see brazil have started to exhume graves in sao paulo as they are running out of space, they had to deal with 400 burials in one day in the city.
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>> I see brazil have started to exhume graves in sao paulo as they are running
>> out of space, they had to deal with 400 burials in one day in the
>> city.
Italy had problems dealing with the dead during phase one early last year, so did New York. Had we not got a grip with lockdowns the same might have happened here.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Fri 2 Apr 21 at 12:46
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>> Italy had problems dealing with the dead during phase one early last year, so did
>> New York. Had we not got a grip with lockdowns the same might have happened
>> here.
>>
Why don't they cremate?
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Cremation is not a favoured method in catholic society.
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>> Cremation is not a favoured method in catholic society.
>>
cremationinstitute.com/can-catholics-be-cremated/
You can be cremated, but you can't keep the ashes at home! What?
You can't divide the ashes up amongst members of the family! Eh?
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What a great sentence -
"Anyone familiar with the Catholic Church knows that over the years, they have changed their policies many times on numerous principles of morality and faith."
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You can be cremated, but you can't keep the ashes at home! What?
I've known Catholics keep ashes at home, not my thing but each to their own.
>
>> You can't divide the ashes up amongst members of the family! Eh?
>>
Never heard of that before.
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>> Never heard of that before.
Not sure I'd heard of it before but my Brother in Law (sister's husband) had half of his Mother's ashes with the rest going to his sibling.
We've got Mrs B's Mother's ashes at the moment. Intention is to scatter them in at least two places. My Sister is holding onto our Mother's on the same basis.
Mum's are due to be divided between Scarborough and a place in the Lakes where there's a memorial bench to my Father.
Dad's were spread in the area of the River Washburn, a major gathering ground for Yorkshire Water with three reservoirs. That was in 1996, I wonder now whether emptying stuff from a plastic box into the public water supply might cause a police investigation !!
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I don't think we were ever the sort of family to keep ashes other than for the shortest time to scatter or bury them. I remember whenever it came up, both parents thought it quite morbid to keep them for anything length of time, doubly so if they were kept on show.
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the River Washburn, a major gathering ground for
>> Yorkshire Water with three reservoirs.
>>
Lindley Wood, Fewston, Swinsty & Thrusscross which was ( I think) the last of the 4 reservoirs to be built.
I know them well...walked from Thrusscross earlier this year, a circular over Barden Fell to Simons Seat, the headwaters of the Washburn rising just to the NE. Views beyond Menwith Hill to York that particular day. Pal lives in Skipton, which is more local, so we drove in his car just in case plod were checking reg plates.
I recommend the Nidderdale Way if you’re in the area again. Most pleasant.
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>> Lindley Wood, Fewston, Swinsty & Thrusscross which was ( I think) the last of the
>> 4 reservoirs to be built.
Thruscross was certainly the most recent; within your and my lifetime. I remember learning about the flooded village of West End more or less contemporaneously with the event, at St Peter's School in Rawdon. A few years later I visited the sailing club there with my Uncle where a friend if his had some sort of role.
Dad spent hours tramping the Washburn's footpaths and (I think) authored a Rambler's Association guide to the area.
He was certainly very active in the Lower Wharfedale group during the seventies and eighties.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Fri 2 Apr 21 at 22:11
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Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 8 - No FM2R
