I daresay many of you have noticed just how difficult it can be to get going at some roundabouts, the speed and unpredictability of non indicating vehicles isn't helping.
With a truck it's far far worse, not only do you have very limited acceleration but obviously a very long vehicle to clear, in some places it's highly dangerous, even with a car you have to give it the beans to get out safely.
It's exacerbated 3 or 4 fold by the ridiculous growing of small woods on many roundabouts, and indeed the preposterous deliberate blocking of line of sight by putting fences along the central reservation to prevent people seeing whats coming...why was this ever allowed.
Is there anyone worth writing to on this subject, i don't mean anyone in authority as they are responsible for the growing (pun) problem anyway.
Would Clarkson take it on for instance, or is there anyone else who might be worth badgering?
|
Its done for safety reasons. The thought being that drivers cant see, and wont be tempted to slip into the roundabout gaps at speed, rather, slowing down to an almost stop.
You have to say, it does work as intended.
|
>> You have to say, it does work as intended.
>>
Well it would if vehicles which were actually on the roundabout adopted the same measure of caution.
Surely the whole point of roundabouts is to keep traffic moving, rather than have vehicles stop because they cannot see far enough across the island to progress safely. Whilst I've no desire to zoom across roundabouts at speeds around the legal limit, as GB says it's downright dangerous in some places as you're effectively pulling out on a blind bend, and even if you get away smartly you inevitably get some berk blasting his horn at you because he thinks you've cut him up. Add to that the propensity of car drivers to attempt to pass HGV's on the inside (i.e. blind side) on roundabouts, and you're guaranteed an accident or at least a near miss every time
Those stupid hedges are an absolute menace. No doubt the idea was dreamed up by some boffin in a lab, who's never been in the cab of a lorry in his life.
|
I absolutely agree with harleyman and GB, but who to complain to is another matter.
Overuse of street furniture is being looked at by some local autorities at the moment but I think the usuals like Brake and Rospa will object to common sense on this one as usual.
It also goes completely against all that we're taught for progressive driving and looking ahead to assess the situation.
Pat
|
>> It also goes completely against all that we're taught for progressive driving and looking ahead
>> to assess the situation.
>>
>> Pat
>>
I think that sums it up well, Pat. Unfortunately the planners have to account for the less skilled drivers, and the idiots on the road. Of course we all make mistakes and that has to be taken into account as well.
|
|
So planting trees and erecting fences by motorway slip roads would be a similar safety measure, forcing people to slow down when joining?
|
|
Sorry cliff, I don't see the link between entering a roundabout and entering a motorway, speed matching is the priority entering a motorway as far as I am concerned.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 19 Sep 10 at 09:49
|
>> Sorry cliff, I don't see the link between entering a roundabout and entering a motorway,
>> speed matching is the priority entering a motorway as far as I am concerned.
>>
Sorry, I was being ironic. I was trying to show that blocking the line of vision on entering a roundabout is almost as daft as doing so on a motorway, where as you say speed-matching is of the essence.
Roundabouts were hailed originally as devices for speeding up traffic, removing the old delays caused by making traffic stop or slow at junctions. Now they seem to be being increasingly used as traffic-calming measures.
|
>> Now they seem to be being increasingly
>> used as traffic-calming measures.
>>
True, one near me recently sprouted enough traffic lights to illuminate Blackpool, result, disrupted traffic flow. I suppose the council have to spend the council tax on something, emptying the bins more often would be nice.
|
>>
>> >> You have to say, it does work as intended.
>> >>
>>
>> Well it would if vehicles which were actually on the roundabout adopted the same measure
>> of caution.
No, they dont have to, they have right of way.
Seems to me its mostly the lorry drivers complaining about this who are upset they cant barge in at speed.
|
|
No, its just that it *is* the big wheelers G, H&P that are complaining.
|
|
Have you tried getting on to a busy roundabout with a fully loaded artic? The ability to anticipate and maintain momentum can help the flow of traffic for everyone, ever been stopped behind one waiting for a suitable gap in roundabout traffic?
|
Yes I can imagine its a problem, and I appreciate whats involved, but they cant accelerate into a gap can they, and how many times have you been going round a roundabout to see some trucker pull out becuase he saw a fagpaper width glimmer of light between cars?
There is a rule on roundbouts, give way to traffic on them, not part them like moses with the red sea.
|
Could it be that we are the only ones who use progressive driving in a proper manner, along with a few car drivers who do a lot of mileage?
Why do certain words become synonymous in context?
Lorry = juggernaut
Progress = barging
any speed = thundering past
Could it be sensationalising posting:)
Pat
|
Have you ever seen me use the word Juggernaut, or thundering past?
oh and please, dont use the "if it wasnt for us you would starve and country would grind to a halt" rubbish again,
|
>> Could it be that we are the only ones who use progressive driving in a
>> proper manner, along with a few car drivers who do a lot of mileage?
Errr No. Why is it all truckers think they are the only proper drivers?
|
|
Usually because they have done more driver training, and have more miles to their credit.
|
and are under more pressure to meet deadlines, are tired,
Many undertake no driver training since passing a test, and driving skill is not taught, you cant make a purse out of a pigs ear,
|
|
The ones round here are low enough for an HGV diver to see over them, its only us car drivers that are affected... and as one who likes to keep moving I also find then a pain in the proverbial... I can see why they are there... but I suspect, like most "traffic calming", its a percieved rather than an actual problem...
|
Z why so aggressive, this isn't aimed at anything other than making the roads safer and more free flowing for all...if i cause a half hour hold up i earn another half hours pay so i suppose i should just put the handbrake on and sit there till peak time's over, would that be better?
I try my best to be a safe and courteous driver i like having a good record for my own stupid pride, most old school drivers are the same and i'm the first to condemn the increasing minority of incompetent fools in trucks (and buses and the majority in vans) who use the size and weight of the thing as a weapon.
Unfortunately drivers of good proven record are not rewarded unless they are lucky enough to land one of the few remaining 'dead mens shoes' jobs, conversely drivers who don't give a fig can go from job to job causing mayhem and no one not even the insurance companies keeps tally of them, this last point has always amazed me.
If i'm approaching a roundabout i can see over i can time my approach to keep momentum and by having a rolling start can be away and gone and inconvenience no one, everyone gains...there's not a proper truck driver around who feels different.
If i have to stop and then start rolling only to have to stop several times after moving a foot or so which is often the case as cars come tearing round and can only be seen when feet from you then i end up 6 feet into the roundabout causing an obstruction and everyone suffers, you really should try it sometime.
Any car driver who had to tow someone or something heavy a few miles will have been in the same boat.
|
"Z why so aggressive"
He's got sand in his v'gina again.
|
Not aggresive, its just that at the feintest sniff of anti truck, the same old "you dont know how hard it is" stuff keeps coming up. At the end of the day some truckers dont seem to realise that they have to share road space with cars, which by the way are in the majority, and without a bit of give from cars the trucks would get nowhere.
I agree its not helped by car drivers who are to stupid to realise or dont care they have to give a bit to enable trucks to function.
Anyway on the original point, as pointed out, most truckers can see over the majority of these obstructions, and they are there to make it safe (if only cars from other stupid cars).
How can make it safer ever be argued against? if it holds up a truck thats an acceptable trade off.
You will note however, I have not come down on the side of if it is safer or not to obstruct the view. I remain undecided, except to say it does slow me down on the entry to roundabouts.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 19 Sep 10 at 11:17
|
>> How can make it safer ever be argued against? if it holds up a truck
>> thats an acceptable trade off.
The whole point of this is that it isn't safer it's downright dangerous, the truck completely across the road from standing start will still only be moving at 10 or 15 mph when car comes hareing round, if the truck driver had better vision and had timed his approach proper like then there's every chance he'll be doing more like 20 to 25 mph when the same car appears.
Car driver will still be upset cos his road track day has been delayed by 0.3 seconds but everyone is safer for it and everyone keeps moving and we will have far less of the huge queues that build up behind.
How do the resident police officers feel about this problem i wonder, i know in work vehicles they won't innocently see quite the same tyre bending roundabout cornering as they would in their own cars, marked traffic cars do have a sobering effect.
|
...Car driver will still be upset cos his road track day has been delayed by 0.3 seconds...
Increased traffic volumes are partly to blame here.
No lorry - or car - entering a roundabout should, by rights, delay a vehicle already on the roundabout.
But the lorry driver has no option but to pull out in front of traffic already on the roundabout, otherwise he would be sat waiting all day.
|
|
The problem is that we live on an overcrowded little island, and the further south you get the worse it is.
|
...and the further south you get the worse it is...
Very true.
Still possible to do some proper A-road driving in North Yorkshire and County Durham.
|
I think the confusion arises from when a lorry driver passes an opinion some people seem to think it's just that........a lorry drivers opinion.
Perhaps it would help to remember we're all car drivers too and some of us bikers and cyclists into the bargain.
It is also possible for a lorry driver to be voicing the opinion of ALL good road users.
Pat
|
>> It is also possible for a lorry driver to be voicing the opinion of ALL
>> good road users.
And snide comment that all who disagree with you are not good road users?
|
>>
>> >> How can make it safer ever be argued against? if it holds up a
>> truck
>> >> thats an acceptable trade off.
>>
>> The whole point of this is that it isn't safer it's downright dangerous,
Is it? if it was wouldnt accident rates be going up as we block the line of sight at more and more roundabouts? I would hope that statistics proving its more dangerous would prompt the power to be to stop doing it* and clear the lines of site at those they blocked?
I personally dont think it makes it more dangerous, as I said up the thread - it slows me down and that can never be a bad thing.
*Tho I am fully prepared to conceed they wouldnt,.
|
>> I personally dont think it makes it more dangerous, as I said up the thread
>> - it slows me down and that can never be a bad thing.
It isn't you approaching the roundabout that's the problem it's the car already going round the blind bend (as HarleyM rightly pointed out) at 50mph that gives the likes of me barely a fraction of a second to get the thing moving and be out of the way, if the foliage wasn't there i wouldn't have pulled out or been biding my time to be under power as he passed, or indeed been able to enter said roundabout and out the way before he got there.
Incidentally i sometimes drive a DAF with automated manual gearbox that takes roughly 3 seconds from putting the clog down to the vehicle lurching away, that helps no end and quite how it got type approval is a mystery to me, but thats by the by and i avoid the things like the plague for that reason.
So far it appears only you that thinks the Russian roulette gamble of entering a blind roundabout is for the greater good.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Sun 19 Sep 10 at 13:30
|
|
And the people who put them there. Now are you saying they did it to make it more dangerous?
|
|
I think Z must be having a geriatric day on the sherry. :)
|
Why?
Lets look at this logically.
Firstly an experience. Where I had my my major accident (my fault) the road and environment has been significantly changed. The approach to the junction has been made one way, requiring a 3/4 mile detour to get to the same spot. The exact circumstances of my accident are now impossible to replicate.
Based on this I am prepared to accept that the council and/or highways agency are actively prepared to change road layouts and environment based on the accidents at that spot. I assume most people would agree with this assessment.
With this in mind, lets look at roundabout sight lines. You have to admit that if obscuring roundabout sight lines had increased the accident rate and made them more dangerous, then the practise would have been stopped and reversed.
Yes? Agree so far?
So we have to admit and assume that generally this is not statistically dangerous. Indeed if money has been spent to obscure the sight lines, there must have been a demonstrable benefit as per my example above.
Lets look at why you think its dangerous. Its because you (when driving your lorry) have to stop and then enter a roundabout in a less than optimal way, and indeed in your eyes may increase the risk of an accident. It may well do. Cars in the roundabout will be doing what, 20, 30,? 40 mph max on a big one. He hits you, bad damage - most survive.
Look at charlie boy racer doing 60 mph down the dual carriageway, he can see the roundabout, the traffic on it, he thinks he can make it through that delicious left right left chicane at that speed slipping into the gaps in the traffic on the roundabout. Misjudges it, carnage results.
Its slows me down on the approach, makes me cautious, even makes me think its dangerous, I am not unique. Yes the policy of obscuring roundabout sight lines feels right to me from a safety perspective.
Now, tell me, logically what’s wrong with that?
|
|
Poor lines of sight must be dangerous, one of our local supermarkets with many shrubs near junctions has recently cut them all down to about a metric three feet tall after complaints. I expect the MX5 drivers are still complaining.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 19 Sep 10 at 14:40
|
|
so you dispute all I said above?
|
>> so you dispute all I said above?
>>
Of course I do, seriously though, it obviously depends on the circumstances. I live on a newish small estate built with sinuating roads with poor lines of sight to restrict speed. It didn't stop the council putting in speed humps and a 20 limit though.
|
I wonder if reduced sight lines have the greatest impact on those that present the least risk - safe and careful drivers.
Mr Getaheadatanycost and Mrs Payingnoattention will approach the roundabout in their same different, but dangerous, ways, whatever the state of the foliage.
|
|
possibly little you can do to mitigate them in any respect.
|
>> I wonder if reduced sight lines have the greatest impact on those that present the
>> least risk - safe and careful drivers.
>>
>> Mr Getaheadatanycost and Mrs Payingnoattention will approach the roundabout in their same different, but dangerous,
>> ways, whatever the state of the foliage.
>>
>>
My son in law was heavily rear ended at a roundabout, He saw her coming and got full right lock on, this pushed him clear of the truck in front and slowed the other car before it went under the truck, which probably saved her life. If that roundabout entry had been clear she would have gone straight across it (it was a big one) if she hadn't hit someone on the roundabout. No line of sight can help in that case.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 19 Sep 10 at 15:09
|
...My son in law was heavily rear ended at a roundabout...
I read somewhere rear enders at roundabouts are the most common form of accident.
Usually at walking pace, though, when the second car pulls away because he wrongly assumes the first car will have already entered the roundabout.
When I'm second in line, I try to stare at the rear of the car in front, and not pay too much attention to what's going on on the roundabout until it's my turn.
|
>> When I'm second in line, I try to stare at the rear of the car
>> in front, and not pay too much attention to what's going on on the roundabout
>> until it's my turn.
>>
Me too. Golden rule, look in the direction you are moving in.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 19 Sep 10 at 15:18
|
|
When I'm second in line for a roundabout I see it as more of a sandwich eating opportunity.
Last edited by: Humph D'bout on Sun 19 Sep 10 at 15:20
|
>> When I'm second in line for a roundabout I see it as more of a
>> sandwich eating opportunity.
>>
Typical company car driver, also while lighting a fag, making a non hands free phone call and holding your coffee between your knees. :)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 19 Sep 10 at 15:24
|
|
Nah, I've got bluetooth now.....
|
|
Been eating the smarties again Humph?
|
>> Nah, I've got bluetooth now.....
>>
Thats caused by chilled sandwiches, a proper egg and bacon with daddies sauce would put some colour back in those cheeks..;)
|
|
Yeah I know, just when did they start selling and who's bright ruddy idea was chilled sandwiches ? Sandwiches should be room temperature. nothing worse than a cold BLT. It's the tomatoes. Who wants cold tomatoes eh ? To heck with the bacteria, you can zap them with the scalding coffee chaser !
|
>> Yeah I know, just when did they start selling and who's bright ruddy idea was
>> chilled sandwiches ?
A man after me own heart, you could be eating the wrapper for all the flavour in the things.
Bacteria? pah i say, didn't worry about all that hand washing before either, a plate of chips eaten from newspaper with fingers would soon see them clean again.
|
|
I thought newspaper ink was a condiment when I was a youngster.
|
Chips ? That's another thing, you're driving home late at night, you've still got a couple or three hours to go, you fancy fish and chips, you don't want to linger, you've already been on the road since some ungodly hour and would quite like to remind yourself what your house looks like.
So in Scotland you spot a chippy, you go in, you ask for fish and chips, they have them ready, they ask you if you want salt and sauce, you say you'd like salt and vinegar and off you go with a nice piece of haddock and enough chips to feed an army in about two minutes flat. Job done.
In England though, you spot a chippy, trying to filter out the ones which claim to do kebabs and chinese food too, you go in and despite it having a great big sign outside saying "Fish and Chips" they act surprised when you order some and then in a surly manner start to cook a trifling little cut of greasy frozen cod and and a portion of chips too small to satisfy a five year old. The whole process seems to take an eternity and then they give it to you in some hideous polystyrene tray which allows the vinegar to slop back and forth without absorbing it and always shoots of your passenger seat at the first corner depositing the wretched fare on your carpet.
Last edited by: Humph D'bout on Sun 19 Sep 10 at 16:55
|
|
Alas Humph you are right.
|
>> Alas Humph you are right.
>>
For once I must agree with you south of civilisation residents. When Mrs ON and I have been travelling and need food on return home we sometimes get a "Fish supper", This consists of two generous pieces of fish and the army sized portion of chips. As you say ready in minutes, piping hot, and delicious. Even better if bought in a fishing village.
|
What's the area of Britain with the highest incidence of heart problems?
Though I agree with the sentiment, I do like the Chippies in Scotland... and even Scotch Pies!
|
Unlike some, not our staple diet. :)
I never did aquire a taste for the mutton pies, look, and taste like ashtrays imo.
|
As stated above the bit I don't get with the ones round here in darkest Cheshire is the signage outside which claims that fish and chips is their main area of expertise, their primary field of endeavour, they even often sport plaques insisting they are of award winning standard and they still don't have any ruddy fish and chips ready when you go in.
And what the hell are "smacks" when they are at home ?
|
It is possible to get good fish and chips down here. We have one nearby, that refuses to do chicken, pies, sausages,, just fish and chips but you have to know where to look.
|
|
Isnt that the best chippy in the UK?
|
|
Yes, only a 30 minute drive from home for me, plenty of good local ones though.
|
|
I have done it in the past. so now like I others I make a determined effort to stare at the car in front till its gone. Its really tough on the eyes if its an X1
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 19 Sep 10 at 15:21
|
...Its really tough on the eyes if its an X1...
And very easy on the eyes if it's a CC3.
Go on, admit it, you like them really.
|
>> And very easy on the eyes if it's a CC3.
It never is, they are so slow and heavy I always get there in front of them.
|
...they are so slow and heavy...
There's a surprising number of cars I come across which seem to be much slower.
|
>> It never is, they are so slow and heavy I always get there in front
>> of them.
>>
In your obsolete dog kennel, you must be joking. :)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 19 Sep 10 at 15:34
|
>> In your obsolete dog kennel, you must be joking. :)
cheap dog keenl if you dont mind.
Anyway, its the base DNA of an Evo.
(it has the same side skirts I think)
|
|
Sorry, they must make it scary fast. :)
|
I quite often drive a fully loaded van and have a roundabout near us that has a built up side and trees and shrubs on top.As i sit at the junction you cannot see over the roundabout and only see the other cars coming round at the last minute.I set off as soon as there are no visible cars coming but due to the acceleration of the van invariably as i move into the flow there is a car coming round.By this time its too late for me to stop and more often than not i'll be beeped by the irate driver who thinks that i have pulled out carelessly.
If i could see over the roundabout there would be no problem.So my personal opinion is that they are a stupid idea and need to be sorted along with speed humps and traffic lights with no lights on the opposite side so if your sat waiting to turn you don't know when the lights have changed and again get beeped at for the stupid planners fault.
|
Right or wrong, statistically proven to reduce accidents or not, the fact is that the policy of deliberately obscuring lines of sight on roundabouts is inconsistent with the authorities' policy in other situations:
1) As I observed, they are deliberately kept clear on motor slip roads, so that approaching cars can speed up and fit into the existing traffic
2) There is a front garden fence rule restricting its height to 1 metre, specifically in order not to obscure lines of sight.
3) Corner properties often have their gardens cut away on the corner, with the wall set back from the corner, for the same reason.
4) Planning applications for new entrances have to address any potential sight limitations the proposal might entail.
5) Vegetation is often controlled on either side of major roads to provide a line of sight round corners.
It may as Zero argues be true that reducing speed and increasing uncertainty helps reduce accidents, but if so the policy ought at least to be consistent. As it is the policy does nothing to increase public confidence that the all-wise traffic authorities are acting in our best interests, rather it tends to confirm the suspicion that it might be part of the anti-car tendency of many local authorities.
|
>> rather it tends to confirm the suspicion that it might be
>> part of the anti-car tendency of many local authorities.
>>
No tendency about it in my area, they are definitely anti car. They have gone completely over the top with speed bumps, to the point that the ambulance service will not respond at emergency speed in certain areas due to damage to their vehicles. Also traffic calming to the point of blatent obstruction, and the clever use of parking restrictions to encourage parking where it will reduce road capacity.
|
Roundabouts are my biggest bug-bear.
On a day to day basis I experience drivers doing the below when I’m waiting to or entering a roundabout
Non indicating.
Incorrect indicating
Going so fast round a roundabout, not giving you sufficient time to execute your manoeuvre, then parping at you because your in there way*
Using the wrong lane, and then pushing in front.
Trying to overtake, and then pushing in front on a single exit lane.
Darlington, the drivers of, are the one of the worst offenders of this for some reason (maybe that’s because its where I live) but not a day goes by when I experience the above
* Er excuse me mate! Its not a race track my ability to for see the future is non existence at the moment so how am I supposed to know you are at the other side of roundabout that I cant see through where your doing 100mph (or near enough).
|
|
If you think Darlington is tough, try the south east. they have cornered the market for ignorant, aggressive, stressed out pushy drivers who's journey is far more important than anyone else's.
|
Roundabouts, foliage and line of sight. - Zero
