I know we've done working hours before and various folks, Mark in particular, have expressed the view than managers who worry about people working fewer than their contracted hours are focusing in the most complex thing they understand (and by inference need to move on or be moved on).
Would you apply same principle where additional time is worked to 'get the job done'?
I'm not talking days here, working day extended by 6-7%. Going home at 17:40/18:00 instead of 17:15.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 1 Mar 20 at 13:58
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Are you asking about what should be the management attitude to people staying late?
I suppose it depends on context, is this a one off, what are they staying late to do, why can't they do it tomorrow, what if they did, if they stay behind do others have to? Etc .
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Your normal job should fit within your normal hours accepting that sometimes you'll finish a little earlier and sometimes a little later and that emergencies can happen. Flexibility should be two-way.
If your job habitually takes longer than your hours then there is an incompetent involved. You just have to work out if that is you or your manager.
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My standard reply to questions from job applicants who will be doing a professional job in my business is that if at 5pm it requires another 15 - 30 minutes to complete a piece of work, then stay.
Equally if they have finished something at 4.30pm, you might as well go home, as by the time you have opened another file and thought about it it will be 5pm anyway.
It's give and take. However if someone is habitually working till after 6pm then either they are inefficient or over worked.
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>>questions from job applicants who will be doing a professional job in my business
Whereas mine would be to cross them off the list. They want an independent and professional role and their question is about what time they are allowed to finish work? If they can;t work that out then I hope their initiative is not needed in any other area either.
Unlikely to be the sort of person that i was looking for. Ever.
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>> Whereas mine would be to cross them off the list. They want an independent and
>> professional role and their question is about what time they are allowed to finish work?
It depends on what underlies the question.
If it's 'how early can I finish' then I'd agree. If the intention is to understand what actually might be needed, because it affects childcare/family and needs a 'plan b' for when it happens then that's a bit different.
Role and responsibility are relevant too. Netsur's half hour, say sorting out timings etc for a survey, is one thing, if it's stay until the Commons rises after a late sitting then different kettle of fish.
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" However if someone is habitually working till after 6pm then either they are inefficient or over worked. "
I did this and more for 15+ years (inc weekends) running my own business. It didn't do me any harm.
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>> It didn't do me any harm.
Yes it did. If nothing else it took from your social life. Worth it to you, I'm sure, because it was your own company.
But unfair and ultimately unsuccessful treating employees that way for whom it is merely a job.
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>> I managers who worry about people working fewer than their contracted hours are....
I actually said timekeeping, I think. A small but not irrelevant difference.
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>> I actually said timekeeping, I think. A small but not irrelevant difference.
You're quite right.
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Many years ago - Friday morning a boss 2 up from me phoned at about 9.15ish - I was walking the last 200 yds to the office.
His opening gambit was that he had something important & I was late for work by say 20 minutes.
I listened and asked if I could call him back in 5 mins as the noise of traffic made the conversation even more difficult. In to the office I sent him a summary of the diary for the week
Mon - left house at 5.45am to go to HO for monthly meeting - returned home 8.30pm
Tues - Office 9.30 - 5.00
Wed - customer calls starting 60 miles from my house at 9 ish, finishing 5pm ish then drove 80 miles home
Thursday - left home 6 ish - drove to Aberdeen 1st Customer 9.00am - several calls finishing about 5 pm & driving 130 miles home
Roughly 46 hours + Friday - in office 9.20 - will leave around 4.30pm. =53 hours (37 .5 hour week)
He never acknowledged the above but asked a few questions which I answered.
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>>He never acknowledged the above
Oh I would have done. I can't see, from your brief tale, that you were managing the situation any better than he was. And certainly the two of you were not communicating.
Had you discussed with him how you would manage your week and your workload? Had he discussed his expectations with you?
There's always incompetence. It's just a matter of finding it and resolving it. I call it miscommunication sometimes to make people less defensive.
In this case it sounds like the incompetence lay with your direct manager, the one in between you and the guy who called you.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 2 Mar 20 at 16:43
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Exceptional week - Monday HO meeting - flying south, driving 90 mins & reverse journey meant a l o n g day but only once a month
Getting up & leaving early for Aberdeen was my choice - I always hated going the day before & having to stay in a hotel for the next day.
On the bright side - I was well paid in that job.
I normally made around £60K but in 2002 I made £84K! - that was what he was trying to cut back on in "the conversation"
He said the target was set too low & I had been paid too much.
I said the previous years were similar targets but I did not get an uplift when others failed to deliver what was ordered. We were paid on invoice value NOT contract value.
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If only real life fitted so neatly on a spreadsheet !
Some days I can seal a several £M deal with nothing more than a couple of emails. Other days it can take several hours and lots of effort to nail down a five grand order. Some days I can do everything I need to do in a couple of hours, other days can stretch to 18 hours of work.
Some weeks I can work 4 days a week, others I'm flat out for 7 days. The fashion industry has particular pinch points at certain times of year and has never been any different. Many have tried to resist it, all have failed. You have to go the extra miles when needed, often at very short or no notice, but have to learn to take the benefits of the less pressured moments when they are available.
What hours I work or expect others to, is entirely functional of the opportunities presented on the day coupled with the ones you can create.
If you were to ask me what I'm doing next Monday, or the day after that, or the week following, I can tell you what I reasonably expect those days to bring at the moment, but I may well have to completely change plans depending on what is happening in particular, at the retail "coalface" that week.
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That's a pretty graphic description of your working life, Runfer. I expect it also explains why your appearances on here can be quite spasmodic.
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This is an interesting question and a situation that I have recently been discussing with ex colleagues.
In my last job I was in a managerial postion. Regularly worked long hours, from around 8am till at least 6pm and then on laptop at home for an hour or so in evening. On call 24/7, email on phone etc etc.
I was made redundant as part of a costcutting move and from what I have heard, much of the detailed work, information, spreadsheets etc just isn't getting done now. For instance, I was selling a small selection of new goods in 18 shops. We booked the stock onto our system, barcoded, cost prices, RRP, full scanning etc. Now they just enter the price on the till and are going to base their stock valuations (for auditing purposes) on a stock take on 31 March. But no detail of where any stock loss is, which branch, which product, it will simply be total spent minus stock valuation. That is just one of many examples where they have decided that the work I spent a lot of time on is not relevant now (incidentally the finance director disagrees with this). Add in to that many other similar scenarios, performance reviews less regular, less regular audits etc etc.
I now work in a civil service position, less money for sure but what a different life I now have.
Flexitime - every minute I am at work I get the credit for it. I can work anytime between 7am and 9pm, whatever suits me. No customer contact, no email on phone. When I walk out the building my work is finished till I go back. It is absolute heaven and everyone I speak to says I am a total different person, so much more relaxed. In fact I am now needing a hobby or project as my wife says I have so much time on my hands in the evenings and weekends.
Yes, I understand its a different business etc but what I do see clearly now, is that many businesses out there could do so much for their staff with regards to flexible working. Too many are ingrained in "this is the way its always been" or " we are not changing it for you".
You simply cannot underestimate how much stress it removes from a person's life by having flexi working. Get up in the morning to find the kid / dog / boiler whatever isnt working properly, sort it out and then go to work. Dont panic about not being in for a fixed time. Train running later? So what? Need to leave work early as its a nice day / you need to deal with the dog / its the kids parents night etc, no problem. The culture is ingrained and everyone works to it.
And you know something, the staff are totally switched on and appreciate the benefit and appreciate getting treated in this way. So that buys other loyalty. And yes I know that many will say thats the civil service for you and you need to get a proper job etc, and I do get some of that, but I also do wonder how much of normal workplace stress is preventable with some simple changes to policies and adopting better attitudes to staff wellbeing.
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>> what I do see clearly now, is that many businesses out there could do so much for their staff with regards to flexible working. Too many are ingrained in "this is the way its always been" or " we are not changing it for you".
Agreed.
>>t I also do wonder how much of normal workplace stress is preventable with some simple changes to policies and adopting better attitudes to staff wellbeing.
Loads.
Improving polices and proceduires is not something within the skillset of your average timekeeping enforcement officer (or 'Manager', as some call them).
Though the specific approaches, possibilities and areas depend entirely on the needs of the business and it's customers.
Simple example; Imagine Flexi-time on a 999 call centre.
However, proper management is beyond must people, as is responsible working. That's who the policies and procedures are for.
Take your bar coding/stock control example. There is clearly incompetence involved. Now, I have no idea if it was your earlier approach or the approach that is being taken now. But they can't possibly both be the appropriate approach - so incompetence either is or was playing a role (I mean no offence, I have no knowledge or opinion about the real situation)
There was probably a middle road which would have made sense.
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Another Management Question. - sooty123
