Non-motoring > Fake psychiatrist Miscellaneous
Thread Author: CGNorwich Replies: 17
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New Tue 20 Nov 18 11:03 
 Fake psychiatrist - CGNorwich
www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-46258687

This case raises all sorts of questions.

The inadequacy of the checking procedures for qualifications.

How come her colleagues never questioned her abilities.

Why did nobody check her qualifications even after she was arrested.

How come it was only the diligence of a local newspaper not the NHS, nor the police that uncovered her lack of qualifications.

I also wonder is psychiatry is a real science and medicine if someone with no qualifications can pretend to be a psychiatrist for 20 odd years with nobody noticing or apparently suffering any harm.
Last edited by: smokie on Tue 20 Nov 18 at 11:07
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New Tue 20 Nov 18 11:49 
 Fake psychiatrist - Bromptonaut
Clearly the original checks back in 1995 were inadequate. BBC report suggests there was an exemption from standard process for some Commonwealth countries. The loophole has since been closed. She used a fake degree and reference to gain registration with the General Medical Council. I guess once she was registered she was treated as though she were what she claimed to be.

The report is silent on what her colleagues thought but it seems she had been appointed to post of Consultant. The report also doesn't tell us what she did in NZ between dropping out of medical school and leaving for UK. Did she work in some other field like psychiatric nursing? Did she do a course of self study?

The Medical Practitioners Tribunal suspended her registration over proven dishonesty in an application for renewal of her Approved Clinician status under Section 12(2) Mental Health Act 1983. They did not look behind her qualifications:

www.mpts-uk.org/-/media/mpts-rod-files/dr_zholia_alemi_17_august_2018.pdf

She had some previous run in with GMC over a driving conviction that went to the High Court (though I cannot find any judgement). If it wasn't for attempted fraud over a will she'd might never have been 'rumbled'.

The interesting question is what it was that led the local paper to think her background worth investigating? Did her conviction get a mention in NZ media that piqued the interest of somebody who knew she'd not completed her degree?
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 20 Nov 18 at 11:52
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New Tue 20 Nov 18 12:10 
 Fake psychiatrist - No FM2R
To be honest I can't get that excited about it nor do I think it really raises many questions.

Well, questions beyond the NHS/BMC internally asking themselves:

1) Could this happen today?
2) Do we need to review any existing people in this position?

How many doctors in the NHS over the last 25 years? And we've got a duff one? Meh, that's a better average than we get from our politicians.
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New Tue 20 Nov 18 12:25 
 Fake psychiatrist - Bromptonaut
>> To be honest I can't get that excited about it nor do I think it
>> really raises many questions.

More or less my thought.

Might expect police investigating fraud allegation against a Doctor to check he/she was registered with GMC. In this case that would have checked out. Wouldn't expect them to look behind that registration unless/until something highlighted specific concerns. Doing so as matter of routine would be a pointless waste of time and money.
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New Tue 20 Nov 18 17:06 
 Fake psychiatrist - Haywain
"To be honest I can't get that excited about it"

No, neither can I - but then she didn't get to make a quack diagnosis on any of my nearest and dearest.

Let's face it, psychiatrists and their ilk don't do a lot of good/can't do a lot of harm; couldn't most of us on here blag our way into it?

I would, however, like to think that the gentleman who was fiddling about with my offal six months ago, knew what he was doing.
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New Tue 20 Nov 18 17:16 
 Fake psychiatrist - CGNorwich
I guess thats rather my view. Is Psychiatry a real thing? Is it actually based on real science? As far as I know there is no real test for Schizophrenia or Depression or Bi Polar disease, its all just a matter of opinion. There's no way of proving a diagnosis right or wrong other than asking another Psychiatrist.
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Tue 20 Nov 18 at 17:16
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New Tue 20 Nov 18 17:34 
 Fake psychiatrist - Bromptonaut
>> I guess thats rather my view. Is Psychiatry a real thing? Is it actually based
>> on real science? As far as I know there is no real test for Schizophrenia
>> or Depression or Bi Polar disease, its all just a matter of opinion. There's no
>> way of proving a diagnosis right or wrong other than asking another Psychiatrist.

It's balance of probability stuff. So are a lot of other diagnoses, particularly if invasive and risky tests are to be avoided.

Some people will get more than one diagnosis over the course of their illness. Mrs B's sister's diagnosis was usually Bi-Polar but one medic suggested there might be an element of Schizophrenia.

When I worked for the Court of Protection Medical Evidence for older people was often along lines of 'dementia, probably of the Alzheimer's type'. It could have been something else eg Vascular but for reasons x, y or z the certifying Doctor thought Alzheimer's more likely. At end of day cause was secondary - presenting issue was lack of capacity.

At time (IIRC) Alzheimer's could only be definitively defined post mortem.
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New Tue 20 Nov 18 18:05 
 Fake psychiatrist - CGNorwich
"It's balance of probability stuff. So are a lot of other diagnoses, particularly if invasive and risky tests are to be avoided."

Yes but for nearly all physical conditions you can confrim the disease by observation or test if only post mortem.

If you take Schizophrenia for example its only a word applied to a certain set of behaviours. Its diagnosis is effectively one person's opinion. Others may or may not agree. Indeed there is no real scientifically acceptable proof that the illness exists at all
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New Tue 20 Nov 18 17:41 
 Fake psychiatrist - henry k
>> 1) Could this happen today?

IMO very unlikely.
Every doctor and consultant post my daughter has applied there is a demand for all original certificates for all qualification, degrees, papers published and any other relevant proof .
Some documents also have a security number on the reverse side.
All this lot adds up to many pages not the " All on a single A4 sheet of paper please"

>> 2) Do we need to review any existing people in this position?
The public would expect the rest of the 3000 to be checked against the present standards and maybe some peer review.
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New Tue 20 Nov 18 17:48 
 Fake psychiatrist - No FM2R
>>The public would expect ..

The public needs to stop trying to be an expert and pass opinion on everything that everybody else does.
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New Tue 20 Nov 18 18:03 
 Fake psychiatrist - Haywain
"Could this happen today?"

I recall seeing figures a couple of years ago which stated that 'of those struck off, 70% had been trained overseas'. I think the data referred to GPs, but perhaps Lygo can give us the current statistics.
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New Tue 20 Nov 18 12:36 
 Fake psychiatrist - Cliff Pope
>>with nobody noticing or
>> apparently suffering any harm.
>>

It would be more interesting if people reported benefiting from her treatments. :)
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New Tue 20 Nov 18 13:06 
 Fake psychiatrist - Mapmaker
>> It would be more interesting if people reported benefiting from her treatments. :)

If all her clients are dementia patients then sadly there is nothing that can be done for them. There must be something more pointless than a dementia consultant interviewing a new patient, but I've no idea what. (I've experienced this; it was half an hour of pointlessness - quite hilarious in parts but completely unproductive.)

So claiming to be able to deal with such patients is largely a pretty benign issue; indeed it has left real doctors to be able to focus on patients who are treatable. More to the point, it seems likely that somebody who has nicked cash from one patient has a good chance of having nicked it from others.
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New Tue 20 Nov 18 14:58 
 Fake psychiatrist - Lygonos
>>it seems likely that somebody who has nicked cash from one patient has a good chance of having nicked it from others.

This.


>>There must be something more pointless than a dementia consultant interviewing a new patient

Once in a blue moon a patient has a reversible cause of a dementia presentation (eg normal pressure hydrocephalus or a vitamin deficiency, though many GPs would discover that prior to referral..), or a non-dementia cause such as a brain tumour.

But yeah it's mostly one-way traffic.
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New Tue 20 Nov 18 16:15 
 Fake psychiatrist - Zero

>> Once in a blue moon a patient has a reversible cause of a dementia presentation
>> (eg normal pressure hydrocephalus or a vitamin deficiency, though many GPs would discover that prior
>> to referral..), or a non-dementia cause such as a brain tumour.
>>
>> But yeah it's mostly one-way traffic.

But you always invariably need that diagnosis from a consultant to get the support process kicked off.
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New Tue 20 Nov 18 16:57 
 Fake psychiatrist - Lygonos
>>But you always invariably need that diagnosis from a consultant to get the support process kicked off

Indeed. In Scotland everyone diagnosed gets one year's post diagnostic support from Alzheimer's Scotland (all dementias, not just the eponymous one) and having a diagnosis helps with attracting social work input.

I presume the other nations have similar support.

Back in the day neurosyphilis was a fairly common cause of cognitive decline but I've never seen a case and routine syphilis testing hasn't been done since before the millenium.
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New Tue 20 Nov 18 16:16 
 Fake psychiatrist - Zero
>> Once in a blue moon a patient has a reversible cause of a dementia presentation
>> (eg normal pressure hydrocephalus or a vitamin deficiency, though many GPs would discover that prior
>> to referral..), or a non-dementia cause such as a brain tumour.
>>
>> But yeah it's mostly one-way traffic.

But you always invariably need that diagnosis from a consultant to get the support process kicked off.

Mind you when you try to tell the parent they are officially so diagnosed, they tell you its a load of bollo, and who the hell are you anyway.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 20 Nov 18 at 16:17
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New Tue 20 Nov 18 16:48 
 Fake psychiatrist - Cliff Pope
I hadn't picked up that she just did dementia cases - I'd pictured endless sessions with people paying to lie on a couch and indulging all their ancient memories and weird fantasies.

I remember taking my mother to a NHS doctor who did the usual remembering three things said at the start of the interview. I couldn't recall them either, which might have been a bit worrying. :)
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