| Motoring Discussion > Seized wheel bolt | Miscellaneous |
| Thread Author: Rudedog | Replies: 32 |
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New Sat 17 Nov 18 16:20
Seized wheel bolt - Rudedog
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I decided today was a good day (weather wise) to change the front disks and pads (ATE) on my son's Polo GTi, bought all the bits online from a German company which still worked out cheaper than buying in the UK. All was going well, first side done and they definitely needing doing, pads down to just a few mill and the disks where covered in flaking rust, had to drill out the small retaining screw on the disk though (very satisfying doing it yourself and taking your time). Moved to the second side and one of the wheel bolts is completely seized!! Tried a long pole for leverage but nothing, I then had to stop, looking at the bolt it didn't seem right part of it was rounded, I don't think this was me.. I have a feeling that the brakes haven't been done in the past because of this and that's why they have been left so long. Now my potential solution...** I also noted that car needs a new set of front tyres as they are not far off the wear limit. Son says that there is a friendly tyre shop near where he works so hopefully we might be able to kill two birds with one stone. If he buys two new tyres (Michelin Pilot 2's) the shop should (I hope) be setup for issues like seized bolts even if it has to be sacrificed, he then gets two new tyres and I can then finish the brake work. Has anybody had a seized wheel bolt? would a tyre shop be able to remove it? ** Yes I know this is not ideal with only one side being replaced. |
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New Sat 17 Nov 18 17:08
Seized wheel bolt - No FM2R
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>>Has anybody had a seized wheel bolt? Yes, a very badly seized and rounded bolt at that. Ultimately the melting point of the bolt is much lower than the melting point of the hub. So if they have an acetylene torch they can resolve it. As was proved to me late one night just before Christmas in Cambridge a few years ago. I had to sign a release though. Of course, there are many less dramatic steps they can take first. So I'd say your plan was a good one. |
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New Sat 17 Nov 18 17:16
Seized wheel bolt - Zero
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>> Son says that there is a friendly tyre shop near where he works so hopefully >> we might be able to kill two birds with one stone. >> >> If he buys two new tyres (Michelin Pilot 2's) the shop should (I hope) be >> setup for issues like seized bolts even if it has to be sacrificed, he then >> gets two new tyres and I can then finish the brake work. The garage shop has an impact wheel gun, and an accetylene torch to heat up the wheel bolt or hub. They will get it off. You can help them by spraying some penetrating oil into it to work its way in till Monday. |
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New Sat 17 Nov 18 17:52
Seized wheel bolt - Dog
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| I've found this stuff worx wonders, : www.plusgas.co.uk/about-plusgas/ |
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New Sat 17 Nov 18 19:34
Seized wheel bolt - Rudedog
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Thanks all, only think I have a can of the 'dreaded' WD40 or GT85 but I guess some thing is better than nothing? Must think about buying a can of Plusgas in case of emergencies. |
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New Sat 17 Nov 18 19:38
Seized wheel bolt - bathtub tom
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>> Thanks all, only think I have a can of the 'dreaded' WD40 or GT85 but >> I guess some thing is better than nothing? >> Must think about buying a can of Plusgas in case of emergencies. I understand a mixture of acetone (nail varnish remover) and ATF (Automatic Transmission Fluid) to be about the best penetrating fluid, although I do have a can of Plusgas in the garage. |
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New Sat 17 Nov 18 21:45
Seized wheel bolt - Dog
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>>I understand a mixture of acetone (nail varnish remover) and ATF (Automatic Transmission Fluid) to be about the best penetrating fluid =>forums.mg-rover.org/other-motoring-chat-54/wd40-plusgas-372521/index2.html |
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New Sat 17 Nov 18 19:12
Seized wheel bolt - sooty123
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| Yes I've had one seized on, in the end the garage welded a piece of bar to the bolt and just twisted it until the bolt came out. |
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New Sat 17 Nov 18 23:14
Seized wheel bolt - Rudedog
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Mixing various 'brews' seem ok if you have a shed to experiment in. Might pop to Halfords (only place open on a Sunday) to see what they have, looking on their website they don't stock Plusgas but are really into the big brand lines. They have two own brands, one called 'Shock and Unlock' which penetrates but also has freezing element that I guess contracts the part you are trying to free and then the oil gets between the surfaces, and then they have a 'Release spray' but I can't see what the ingredients are, both £3.99 for 500mls so worth a punt. |
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New Thu 22 Nov 18 21:05
Seized wheel bolt - Rudedog
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Just as an update. Son took car to the tyre shop next to where he works on Wednesday, wheel bolt removed using great force that distorted the head, luckily the shop had the correct replacement bolt in stock (replaced FoC), new tyres ordered and fitted today. I warned him about running new tyres until they were scrubbed in. Now I can finish the remaining side for the brakes. Plus I've received my new torque wrench so all of the wheel bolts will be removed and refitted to the correct torque (120 Nm). One additional question which I'm sure was discussed many moons ago.... Do I use a smear of anti-seize paste on the bolt threads (I have an aluminium type) or will that interfere with the torque setting or go au naturel? |
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New Thu 22 Nov 18 21:28
Seized wheel bolt - henry k
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>>Do I use a smear of anti-seize paste on the bolt threads (I have an aluminium type) >> or will that interfere with the torque setting or go au naturel? >> I have always understood that published torque settings are for dry threads. If any form or grease is used then 20% ........IIRC less torque is required. I will try to find the reference. |
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New Thu 22 Nov 18 21:37
Seized wheel bolt - henry k
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My reference was from The well known forum poster ..."Number_Cruncher" Quote. Wheel bolts should (generally) be installed dry. The design intent of bolted fasteners is that they should develop clamping force. This means that the bolt is in tension, and the joint is placed in corresponding compression. When you apply torque to a fastener, most of this effort is spent in overcoming the friction beneath the rotating head of the fastener, and the friction in the sliding threads. Only a little effort is actually expended in tensioning the fastener. The relationship between the torque you apply and the tension you achieve is, therefore, strongly influenced by the condition of these sliding surfaces, and by greasing them, you will obtain much more tension in the fastener than was designed for. This extra tension can be enough to strip the threads, to damage the fastener, or to damage the component being secured. If the joint has been well designed, the shank of the fastener will snap first, before thread stripping or component damage, but, not all bolted joints are well designed. This dependence on friction to determine how torque tightening produces fastener tension is why torque tightening is quite a poor method of installing fasteners. Torque tightening is popular because it's quick and easy. Even with the best torque tools and highly trained fitters, the scatter in bolt tension between a population of bolts is quite wide. For more critical fasteners on cars, a torque plus angle specification is usually given which gives much more accurate tensioning, and which usually makes much more efficient use of the fastener material. Incidentally, the joint face between the wheel and hub should also remain dry - this face is, effectively, a clutch face transmitting drive and braking torque between the hub and wheel. This torque should be transmitted by the friction, and not by shearing the bolts. The bottom line is that all safety critical fasteners should be tightened by following the manufacturer's specification, with no ad-hoc modification. |
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New Thu 22 Nov 18 22:36
Seized wheel bolt - bathtub tom
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>>Incidentally, the joint face between the wheel and hub should also remain dry - this face is, effectively, a clutch face transmitting drive and braking torque between the hub and wheel. This torque should be transmitted by the friction, and not by shearing the bolts. I remember putting this to NC many years ago and he calculated the proportion of torque carried by the friction between wheel and hub. It doesn't explain why you often find a substance much like 'copperslip' twixt ally wheels and steel hubs used I presume to prevent them sticking. |
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New Thu 22 Nov 18 22:47
Seized wheel bolt - henry k
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>>...you often find a substance much like 'copperslip' twixt ally wheels and steel hubs used I presume to prevent them sticking. I have always understood that the likes of Copaslip is to prevent the two dissimilar metals in contact causing the corrosion/ sticking. |
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New Thu 22 Nov 18 23:08
Seized wheel bolt - Lygonos
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>> have always understood that the likes of Copaslip is to prevent the two dissimilar metals in contact causing the corrosion/ sticking. Which makes no sense to me as copper aids the transfer of electrons - as well to put a circle of paper between them to act as a gasket if you don't have the beef to knock a wheel off a hub. |
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New Thu 22 Nov 18 23:20
Seized wheel bolt - Zero
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>> Which makes no sense to me as copper aids the transfer of electrons - Galvanic corrosion, caused by a voltage differential between surfaces. Copaslip shorts them out so there is no differential. I copaslipped the hub/wheel circumference surface, but not the flat face between hub and wheel. |
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New Fri 23 Nov 18 00:24
Seized wheel bolt - Lygonos
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>>Copaslip shorts them out so there is no differential. Isn't the copaslip acting as an electrolyte in that case? The potential between the metals is still there, facilitated by conductive goo between them. Maybe it works by starving the interface of oxygen and the copper does bog all? Edit - it seems copaslip is actually a crap conductor so presumably acts as an insulator preventing electrical charge transfer. Last edited by: Lygonos on Fri 23 Nov 18 at 00:28
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New Fri 23 Nov 18 00:41
Seized wheel bolt - Lygonos
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>>Isn't the copaslip acting as an electrolyte in that case? I guess not as it doesn't enable ion transfer, so it would be a conductor at best. Meh - never felt the need to use it anyway! I use Ceratec for brakes. |
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New Fri 23 Nov 18 04:37
Seized wheel bolt - sooty123
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| textar-professional.com/textar-training-center/the-use-of-copper-grease-on-modern-brakes/ |
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New Fri 23 Nov 18 08:17
Seized wheel bolt - Cliff Pope
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>> > if >> you don't have the beef to knock a wheel off a hub. >> Some beef! I once had an alloy wheel that was so firmly attached that it resisted all efforts to free it. Having even tried loosening the nuts slightly and doing some vigorous cornering I resorted to a 10 foot scaffolding pole and a block of wood wedged against the chassis. It still look full effort lying with my legs braced against the garage wall. |
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New Fri 23 Nov 18 09:45
Seized wheel bolt - Rudedog
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So this could be opening a whole can of worms and leaving me in a bit of a quandary as the advice still seems to be a bit woolly. On the side that have completed I put the anti-seize paste (it’s a ceramic/aluminium type made by a small UK company) between the back of the disk-hub and the wheel-hub (I had to whack the old one off with a club hammer), following the advice given this was probably wrong(?) and the fact that it was difficult to get off could have been a good thing (indication of no slipping between surfaces). The advice for the bolts still seems unclear as I don’t know what caused the issue in the first place, it could have been either massively over tightened or a reaction between the steel bolt and steel hub/alloy wheel? If it was just because it was over tightened then torqueing to the correct value should be ok and no paste is needed, but if there was a reaction then surely the only way to stop this happening again would be to use a substance between the surfaces? (or I guess I could regularly i.e. twice a year, undo and retighten them all to break any bond formed). I watched numerous YouTube videos on replacing brakes and they all did it differently, even the big brake companies put out their own videos and they weren’t consistent. Of course the last thing I want is to get a call to saying that son is stuck at the side of the road unable to undo a wheel bolt. I think I’d rather add a bit of paste (lowering the final torque setting as per NC) and then check the bolt tightness as part of a regular maintenance regime. |
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New Fri 23 Nov 18 11:09
Seized wheel bolt - VxFan
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I can't imagine putting lubricant on the threads making any difference to the torque value. The main frictional part is the taper between the wheel and bolt. Just keep that away from any lubricant. |
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New Fri 23 Nov 18 11:45
Seized wheel bolt - Manatee
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>> I can't imagine putting lubricant on the threads making any difference to the torque value. >> >> >> The main frictional part is the taper between the wheel and bolt. Just keep that >> away from any lubricant. It won't make any difference to the torque value, as that is governed by the setting of your torque wrench or by how hard you lean on the spanner. But if greasing the threads means you can get an extra turn, or part of a turn, on the nut or screw (which seems inevitable as you have removed some friction), then the tension in the stud or screw is going to be higher. If you want to put a bit of grease on the threads, then you could make allowance by setting the torque to the lower end of the range e.g. for 108-147 Nm use the 108. You then know you have more tension than 108Nm with dry threads, and with luck no more than you would have with dry threads at 147Nm. That's guesswork of course and sounds unscientific, but that's what using torque gets you - a not precisely known tension. |
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New Sun 25 Nov 18 16:50
Seized wheel bolt - Bromptonaut
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>> you don't have the beef to knock a wheel off a hub. I have not. The Roomster's o/s rear has needed occasional pumping up since the summer. Meant to do something when I got around to it but work and leisure kept getting in way. Away in Scarborough last weekend. Stopped for a pee at Trowell services on Sunday to find it visibly deflated. Pump attached an inflated to 3bar and re-checked @ LFE. Down again on Monday morning and when I got back to it 10 hours later after work. Tuesday morning loosed off bolts and jacked up but could not separate wheel from hub. No soft mallet to hand but hard one and a baulk had no visible result. Was worried about how much 'welly' I could use for fear of knocking it off the jack. Called Britannia rescue and it took their guy several swings with a proper tool to shift it. Last off to my knowledge approx a year ago when new rear pads fitted. Currently running in full size spare but steel rather than alloy. Needs and MoT (another thing that fell down slats between work and leisure). Am I right in thinking it will be OK as wheel is right size, not a space saver, and steel/alloy mix is not an issue. |
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New Mon 26 Nov 18 15:38
Seized wheel bolt - RichardW
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| Yes, as long as size and rating are the same then it will pass. |
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New Fri 23 Nov 18 09:47
Seized wheel bolt - No FM2R
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>>The well known forum poster ..."Number_Cruncher" and very much missed. He knew "stuff". |
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New Fri 23 Nov 18 11:48
Seized wheel bolt - Fullchat
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I wouldn't have grease anywhere near my wheel nuts. Having ripped out chassis threads when fitting a towbar having administered some waxoil before fitment I discovered the hard way how lubrication interferes with attainable torque figures. Fortunately I realised what had happened and was able to Helicoil the threads I had butchered. Just torque wheelbolts to specification and if it concerns you undo and re-torque every 6 months. Interesting comment about not greasing between the mating face of wheel and hub. However I have always done so and had no issues. Facilitates the removing of wheels. |
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New Fri 23 Nov 18 11:57
Seized wheel bolt - Fenlander
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As others have hinted Copaslip has not been advised in the area of brakes for many years now... very different from the old days when any decent mechanic would spend his time with one finger in the Copaslip for much of a brake/steering/suspension job. A dab on the back of brake pads was always good advice for stopping squeal but now most pads have a bonded material on the back to stop this anyway. Personally I think the downsides of Copaslip are somewhat over-stated but hey I want to feel I'm keeping up with the trends so Ceratec www.carparts4less.co.uk/cp4l/p/-/-/-/-/?526770250&0&cc5_150&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIwuaqgK7q3gIVzpPtCh3DNQSsEAQYAiABEgIf3PD_BwE is the way to go now... as stated by Lygonos and seeming what Rudedog has used. As long as threads/components are clean and rust free in truth using nothing is fine... well in the case of wheels/bolts that's only true if the wheels are being removed yearly at services so they won't stick. But take a new car where for example the rear wheels might not come off until it's four or more years old then sticking is more likely. I never use anything on a new replacement disc to hub interface... just make sure the hub is taken back to shiny metal and then wipe with a rag sprayed in WD40 to remove any dust/particles. Disc runout... or rather lack of... is so important you don't want anything on the hub/disc face that could cause this. For wheels I wire brush the hub and/or back of the wheel as needed... the bolts I wire brush clean and spray with WD40 a couple of mins before fitting so they are virtually dry by the time they go on... an insignificant effect on torque I reckon and they are never any trouble to remove next time. NC was big on dogmatic adherence to scientific principles... but if you want to skew these with understanding of why you're doing so and know the balance of benefit vs consequences then why not. Last edited by: Fenlander on Fri 23 Nov 18 at 11:59
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New Sun 25 Nov 18 23:21
Seized wheel bolt - slowdown avenue
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vauxhall don't grease wheel nuts. if fitting alloy wheels then copperslip the wheel |
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New Fri 23 Nov 18 21:40
Seized wheel bolt - Kevin
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Electrical connection with copper will actually make aluminium corrosion worse. Boat owners have been plagued by galvanic corrosion for years. www.boatus.com/boattech/articles/marine-corrosion.asp |
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New Sun 25 Nov 18 16:00
Seized wheel bolt - Rudedog
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Just as a last post. Finished the brake job on the remaining side (horrible weather but just about dodged the drizzle). Same as the first side with everything caked in old crud and brake dust but managed to get all bolts eventually undone (small screw on disk had to be drilled out though, luckily a new one came with the new disk). One big thing was that the replacement bolt the tyre shop used when they destroyed the seized one was not the right type, the thread was ok but the conical angle at the top was too steep, again luckily I had ordered a new one as soon as this all started. Decided to leave the bolts and hub faces clean and dry, used my newly acquired torque wrench and long socket to torque everything back up to spec (120 Nm for wheel bolt), even took the other side off and redid those. Thanks all. |
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New Sun 25 Nov 18 16:14
Seized wheel bolt - R.P.
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| You need a sacrificial anode for that ! (never, ever thought I could use that on this site) |
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New Mon 26 Nov 18 00:23
Seized wheel bolt - Kevin
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| If you think that you are diving under my stern to check my sacrificial anode then you have another think coming! |
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