First, greetings - and how is everyone? How is the Car4play community?
I've not looked in for a couple of years, but something very weird has just happened to me, and I thought I would ask for advice.
In September, I was involved in an accident. Sitting at a roundabout, with just one car between me and the roundabout, and eager to make progress, I did something stupid. I saw a gap in the traffic, assumed the car in front would move off, and put my foot on the accelerator, then realised the car in front had not moved off - and so I braked hard. Alas, I was not quite fast at braking to avoid bumping him. We both got out, and I had a look at his car - a neat, clean Ford Focus about 10 years old. There was slight marking on the rear bumper (which, I believe in plastic). There wasn't a mark on my car.
We pulled off in a lay-by a couple of hundred yards away, and exchanged email addresses and mobile numbers. He was probably in his 30s, and seemed a bit anxious about the whole thing. Having done that, I drove to my destination a few miles away, and, since I had a spare moment, I texted him just to confirm my email number. I then spent the rest of the day kicking myself for being such a complete idiot as to start moving without checking that the car in front had moved. However, I have accidentally bumped other cars over the years, and most owners have never bothered doing anything about, and I thought that this might be the case this time - though the guy had seemed remarkably concerned about his vehicle.
I expected him to get back to me and tell me what the garage said - hoping that the garage would have just shrugged and said that it wasn't worthy doing anything about it.
And I didn't bother informing my insurance company, since it seemed pretty minor.
Well, this morning, my insurance company telephoned me, and told me that the guy was apparently injured in the incident, and has not worked since, and has put in a big claim for lst earnings.
And I'm thinking. "Hold on. If you are sitting in a 2008 Ford Focus, wearing a seat belt, and someone bumps you from behind at about 10 miles an hour, how can you be injured - so seriously as not to be able to work?"
It wasn't as if there was any sign that he was hurt at all when it happened - just seemed remarkably concerned about the bumper of his car.
Anyway, I'm responsible for the incident. I just wait to see what the insurance company comes back with. But I just don't know what to make of it all - or if there is anything else I should do.
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Alas there is probably not much you can do now. Clearly the bloke has decided to cream a fake compo claim, and you are over a barrel for not reporting it to your insurance company. Unless you have dash cam evidence, or witnesses, its his word against yours.
Let the insurance company deal with it, and hope they don't refuse to insure you at renewal time.
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Hi Tyro, welcome back!!
With hindsight it was probably a mistake not to advise insurer at time of accident. Somebody over on Honest John is getting serious runaround from Admiral over an accident she supposedly failed to report. Issue there is alleged mistake by witness with registration number so very different to yours but hopefully you'll not be penalised for it.
Whether he's just a chancer taken in by 'blame & clame' call or a professional cash for crash operator you don't know. If you think it's fraudulent then you need to let insurer know that in clear and unequivocal terms so that they can handle it appropriately. Insurers do seem to have got some backbone recently. Cases have gone to court with claims struck out and the normal cost sharing rules set aside leaving somebody, either the claimant or his lawyers with a massive legal bill.
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Thanks for responses so far.
A few comments.
1) While it was definitely a mistake not to tell my insurance company about the acccident at the time, I got the impression from the person from the insurance company that it probably would not have made much difference to this claim if I had.
2) I gather that the other driver has some sort of documentation from the hospital he apparently attended, which strikes me as interesting - and very puzzling.
3) I did make it pretty clear to the person from the insurance company that I found it extremely difficult to believe that the other person had been hurt from such a minor bump. She told me that she had seen some presentation about how she had been at a presentation at which a medical person explained how serious injury could occur from low speed impacts. I remain somewhat sceptical.
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Hi Tyro, sorry to hear about your problem of course, but it is good to see you back on the forum. Hope you decide to pop in from time to time again. Are you still living in the north of Scotland?
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Yes, still in the north of Scotland. I have moved, and not quite as far north, but still north of Inverness.
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>> Thanks for responses so far.
>>
>> A few comments.
>>
>> 1). ....I got the impression from the person from the insurance company
>> that it probably would not have made much difference to this claim if I had.
Probably true, a large proportion of "rear ended shunted" end up in an attempted compo claim, justified or not
>> 2) I gather that the other driver has some sort of documentation from the hospital
>> he apparently attended, which strikes me as interesting - and very puzzling.
Pretty easy to attend A&E after the event with fake neck injuries. Hospital cant prove you dont have pain, short or long term. Which is why whiplash claims are so popular,
>> 3)
>> could occur from low speed impacts. I remain somewhat sceptical.
Its possible, it can happen, but not as often as the claim culture has taken it.
If your claimant keeps his claim reasonable, it will probably be paid. If he gets greedy it could all unravel for him.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 6 Nov 18 at 13:05
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Nothing to add to Zero's advice really.
Two comments though;
Always advise your insurer (hindsight and all that). BUT, pay attention and if nothing happens then make sure it is *not* taken into account in your next renewal premium.
In this case if, as appears likely, he gets away with a claim, this may well hurt your renewal premium, perhaps significantly. Make sure you document your concerns to your insurer in writing immediately and make sure your version is on their records. When you get to renewal be prepared to have the fight that says "you decided to pay a fraudulent claim to save yourself money, do not increase my renewal premium just to recover some of your expenses".
If it gets to that, then it will be a fight, but it's one you want to win. Because shopping around with a fault injury claim on your record isn't much fun.
Sorry, the guy is a scumbag, clearly. Perhaps you will be fortunate and your Insurer will be sensible, though I wouldn't count on it. If it comes to it I am always up for a fight with an insurer if you need support.
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Thanks Mark. I'll get my side of the story in writing, and contact my insurer.
My insurance company is NFU Mutual, who I have always found excellent, and who have a very good reputation. They may not deal with this matter the way I would like, but I doubt if anyone else would do a better job, so I'll be wanting to stick with them.
I remain perplexed and curious about the medical side of this. I don't know a thing about neck and whiplash injuries, and I guess it is possible that the pain only starts a few hours after the incident. But he seemed fine at the time, and as I say, concerned about his rear bumper, rather than his own physical condition.
I obviously wasn't looking at the speedo when I hit him, and so have no idea exactly how fast I was going when I hit him, but it can't have been more than a few miles an hour. Especially as the mark on his rear bumper wasn't too bad.
There is one other thing which may or may not be worth mentioning. In the telephone call this morning, I was told the name of the other vehicle's owner. I didn't note it, but it was a lady's name, and I am pretty sure the chap driving it was alone in the car. Probably means nothing, but . . .
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OK, I've now googled, in an attempt to educate myself. Came upon this as one of the top links:
"A low-speed collision or car accident is a collision that takes places at speeds below ten miles per hour. Often times there is little or no visible property damage done to the bumpers of either vehicle. However, minimal or nonexistent damage to the vehicles involved does not mean that you haven’t sustained a physical injury.
Rear-end accidents are the most common low-speed collision. At low speeds, particularly where the impacting vehicle is already at a stop, the forces involve transfer to your unrestrained body parts within the vehicle. Pain from an injury may be negligible or unnoticeable in the immediate wake of the accident. It does not surface until well after the collision."
So I guess that perhaps the other driver may not be lying, but that he really did suffer serious injury.
Edit: And the following, from Wikipedia: " It is one of the most frequently claimed injuries on vehicle insurance policies in certain countries; for example, in the United Kingdom 430,000 people made an insurance claim for whiplash in 2007, accounting for 14% of every driver's premium."
Last edited by: tyro on Tue 6 Nov 18 at 15:59
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I've only been in one car accident when the car was rear-ended and that was by a tanker (don't know if it was milk or oil as I was knocked out). The car roof crumpled and made contact with the back of my head and cut it open....
... But I did not suffer from whiplash.
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Well, this is fascinating.
Found this in the Guardian: tinyurl.com/n95z4nd
Dr Stuart Matthews, consultant surgeon in major orthopaedic trauma at the Leeds Teaching Hospitals. : “There is not a single test that shows abnormality directly attributable to this condition. Diagnoses are purely on the say-so of the person involved. Many orthopaedic surgeons do not believe it is a genuine condition.â€
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Put it behind you, move on and accept you were at fault.
BUT, learn never to move at any junction until the vehicle in front of you has moved.
That may sound silly, but I won't even look for a gap in the traffic until I have seen the vehicle in front of me move off and it has kept me safe for many a year.
Pat
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>> Well, this is fascinating.
>>
>> Found this in the Guardian: tinyurl.com/n95z4nd
>>
>> Dr Stuart Matthews, consultant surgeon in major orthopaedic trauma at the Leeds Teaching Hospitals. :
>> “There is not a single test that shows abnormality directly attributable to this condition. Diagnoses
>> are purely on the say-so of the person involved. Many orthopaedic surgeons do not believe
>> it is a genuine condition.â€
>>
I’ve had someone run into the back of me, at speed, on the Milford sliproad off the A3 southbound. I was in a then new shape (and indeed almost brand new) Megane with active headrests and while I didn’t get whiplash I was pretty sore across the shoulders the day after, and had pain in my lower back.
I still get the odd twinge in the lower back even now, more than 10 years later. Now the closing speed between me and the Volvo that collided with me was more than 10 mph, but I can quite believe that with poorer head protection some form of short, medium or even long term effects could result from a relatively low speed collision.
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At speed, maybe.
It proves nothing, but my wife and I, and 2 children, were in a Ford Orion that was rear ended in 1987/8. The roof was bent and the back doors wouldn't close, so it was not a trivial bump. No whiplash.
The same wife ran into a car at a roundabout (same accident as tyro) in 2014. GPS speed was 10mph (from the dashcam). The Popemobile need a new bumper, bonnet, lights, grille, wing etc. No whiplash.
430,000 cases? It's virtually all fraud.
In the 70s and 80s head restraints were far from universal. I don't recall anybody getting whiplash. Dead maybe, but no whiplash!
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If you didn't cry it was probably oil (you know what they say about spilt milk)
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>> I obviously wasn't looking at the speedo when I hit him, and so have no
>> idea exactly how fast I was going when I hit him, but it can't have
>> been more than a few miles an hour. Especially as the mark on his rear
>> bumper wasn't too bad.
I have been on both sides of this, having done it and having it done to me. When done to me, it was enough to ripple the boot floor, when I did it I caused significant damage to both cars. Modern bumpers dont reveal the truth of the forces involved. Its funny how much energy you can get up in three yards when you are trying to nip out sharpish into a traffic stream. Dont discount the potential.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 6 Nov 18 at 16:54
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> I remain perplexed and curious about the medical side of this. I don't know a
>> thing about neck and whiplash injuries, and I guess it is possible that the pain
>> only starts a few hours after the incident. But he seemed fine at the time,
>> and as I say, concerned about his rear bumper, rather than his own physical condition.
I was hit from behind* about 3 years ago. I didn't feel any discomfort that day, none at all, but come the morning i could hardly move. The pain and stiffness in my neck and back was like nothing I've felt before or since. Very painful and very limited mobility, i just about got to the docs a few days/week off got some pills and it was fine.
* sudden standing line of traffic on the A1. I stopped in time, guy behind didn't.
I had a new bumper, other car was a write off.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Tue 6 Nov 18 at 17:55
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The littlest things can cause back injuries.
Many years ago I was at a client looking through some files and a lever arch file was on the floor, I lent over to pick it up from my chair, without getting up and felt my back twinge.
Over the next ten minutes the pain got progressively worse and I called the office to say I was going home.
I went to get up from the chair but really couldn't move, my breathing was very strained and the client was on the phone to 999.
We were right next to the air-ambulance HQ and a doctor turned up in his Land Rover, took a quick look and administered some morphine. Ended up in hospital for a few days, transported by ambulance, not helicopter.
I am sympathetic with back pain as it can clearly arise from the silly little thing.
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>> I am sympathetic with back pain as it can clearly arise from the silly little
>> thing.
Me too.
Around 22 years ago I changed the battery in our Citroen BX. Awkward lift as battery tray was on left side of engine compartment and I was up against the wall of the house. Slight twinge in back but no more. An hour or so later I bent down to put a bed time video on for kids. Whole of my back from rib cage to pelvis went into a spasm. Took about 10 minutes to straighten myself.
Nurofen and codeine provided some relief but not as much a 30mg prescription codeine I got from GP.
Occasionally effect returns.
Last Christmas Mrs B and I took caravan to Grand over Sands in South Lakes. Pegging out the awning I got back twinge - applied hot water bottle and took Nurofen Plus - all seemed OK. Next morning while undressing in campsite shower I got the full spasm thing again. Honestly thought I was going to have to shout for help - abandoned idea of shower but couldn't stand up and put my underpants on. After 20 minutes I loosened up enough to dress but was in periodic pain for remainder of break until I saw GP at home and got prescribed codeine.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 6 Nov 18 at 19:21
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UPDATE: Almost 15 months later . . .
Well, I heard nothing from the insurance company until I got a telephone call in August 2019 - about a year after the accident. (OK, I got the renewal letter at the end of January 2019, but it was normal.)
Then, in August, there was a telephone call out of the blue. Someone from the insurance company wanting to come and take pictures of my car because of this strange claim. So I said, fine, and in due course, a gent appeared, and took photos, and we chatted.
That struck me as really weird, since a picture taken a year later proves absolutely nothing, and I told him as much. He agreed, of course.
I have heard nothing since - at least, until today, when the renewal letter from the insurance company came through. It's a few pounds cheaper than last year.
I wonder how long this one will drag out . . .
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Can't remember if I told the tale on here about our Great Oil Heating Disaster - anyway, the claim on the household insurance started first week in September and rumbled on until late November when the work finished. So that was it. The claim would have been a couple of thousand no doubt, installation of temporary oil line then the fix, two men for two days staying in a local hotel, hire of a skip, disposal of contaminated waste, dig trench lay new oil supply line and make good. Up until yesterday, phone call from the very nice man at the loss adjusters - apologising for the delay and that the excess should have been collected by the contractors when they finished..told to wait for an e-mailed invoice and then settle. ..the whole process from claim to completion was done in a timely and very efficient way though
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>> I have heard nothing since - at least, until today, when the renewal letter from
>> the insurance company came through. It's a few pounds cheaper than last year.
>>
Have you got protected NCB? Normally they take a couple of years NCB away if a claim is outstanding at renewal.
I will say we had (divorced now) a family member who was allegedly badly affected by whiplash after her car was little more than nudged in the side and it apparently cricked her neck - I'm thinking the person you hit would likely have had their head turned to looking for a gap in the traffic.
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Yes, I do have protected NCD (I take it that by NCB, you mean No Claim Discount) on that vehicle.
The renewal documents say that I have 8 or more years NCD protected, on that one, but on our other car, we have 5 years NCD not protected. I can't remember why that is - so I guess I'll have to think about getting that protected.
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Sounds like the insurance company are not taking it too seriously, in either processing the claim or prosecuting the scammer.
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Traditionally NCD was given according to the number of years claim free. Anything up to 5 years and up to 65%.
When moving company then the new company ignored the percentage discount you had previously been given and simply took your number of years provable claim free and attributed their own scale to that.
It was almost universal that it would be reduced by two years for one accident and reduced to zero for two accidents.
Then along came 'protected' NCD. What that really meant is that your existing company would maintain your current discount percentage in the event of claim. It didn't matter much to them, the punters remained happy and the insurance company just bumped up the gross premium and then applied the current discount.
However, if you changed companies then they would not preserve the percentage, they would apply the reduced number of years claim free to their scale.
These days the whole approach of NCD is a bit raggedy with introductory discounts, special treatments for only one claim, differing and changing rules on bonus transfer, discounts on [now common] second cars etc. etc.
It's all boll**ks, smoke and mirrors really. All that matters is what you pay. And they manipulate that with the gross premium, not the net.
So I wouldn't stress the "protected" bit if I were you.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Wed 29 Jan 20 at 12:42
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I can remember the days of the Motor Insurance Tariff. Difficult to believe now that most Insurers subscribed to a fixed set of minimum rates. Terms and conditions were also laid down by the Tariff body.
NCB as it then was was strictly adhered to. We would not recognise any NCB granted by a non- tariff company!
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Bring back Vehicle & General.
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>> Bring back Vehicle & General.
Fire Marine and Auto was a good un.
MY old man got fleeced by both of them
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>> Bring back Vehicle & General.
>>
I was working in a garage when they went belly up (1971 ish?). The owner had just insured his three trucks with them.
Last edited by: Robin O'Reliant on Thu 30 Jan 20 at 15:34
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I've been hit up the back a few times over the years and not felt much at all, just heard a bang and felt a bump similar to dropping of a kerb or suchlike. I do not see how anyone could be injured by the kind of bump that is only cosmetic springy bumper-cover/trim damage.
I did once get a sore neck going through a bad pothole at 5-10mph, the difference here was my head was fully turned to the right and I guess the tendens in my neck were already at full stretch and twist. I did make a claim for the broken spring and othe suspension parts deemed potentially damaged by the mechanic, but did not pursue the injury as it was minor and temporary.
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"my head was fully turned to the right"
Nice cleavage or short skirt?
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Strange story about accident and insurance claim - Zero
