| Non-motoring > Masons & the Media | Car Deals |
| Thread Author: No FM2R | Replies: 159 |
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New Thu 8 Feb 18 16:15
Masons & the Media - No FM2R
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Clearly a quiet day for news... www.bbc.com/news/uk-42986319 I don't know who I think is more ridiculous, the Grand Lodge or the BBC. They'd both be better off not talking. |
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New Thu 8 Feb 18 17:04
Masons & the Media - sooty123
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Seems silly for them to call for less discrimination and yet have male only lodges. Noting that are a few female ones, still seems odd. As to the handshake he'd have been better off doing it and get it out of the way. |
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New Thu 8 Feb 18 17:19
Masons & the Media - No FM2R
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>>As to the handshake he'd have been better off doing it and get it out of the way. Perhaps, but he promised not to so he couldn't. Anybody who does, and there are quite a few, are breaking their promise. You can't selectively keep your word. You are a person of integrity or you are not. The whole thing was ridiculous. Discrimination? Ridiculous. The Grand Lodge has got it's panties in a knot for no reason and is doing nobody any favours. |
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New Thu 8 Feb 18 17:28
Masons & the Media - Pat
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>> has got it's panties in a knot for no reason and is doing nobody any favours.<< I agree, but so are so many others at the moment. I can't help thinking that there are so many women out there who are trying to promote equality and feminism at the moment, yet the way they are going about it is counter productive. All these revelations about their past 'indiscretions' while trying to make it big as celebrities isn't helping. I find it strange they have only found the courage to speak out once their career has been established. Emily Pankhurst must be turning in her grave.......but she would approve of the Masons. Pat |
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New Thu 8 Feb 18 17:42
Masons & the Media - sooty123
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> Perhaps, but he promised not to so he couldn't. Anybody who does, and there are >> quite a few, are breaking their promise. You can't selectively keep your word. You are >> a person of integrity or you are not. Collectively as an organisation they should have seen this coming and the opportunity to deal with was there, an open goal. And they skyed it into the stand. What was worse was the chap said it's not a secret but then refused to do it made it seem even sillier for them, especially on the back of a campaign to bring them out into the open that they've initiated. |
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New Thu 8 Feb 18 17:46
Masons & the Media - No FM2R
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>>What was worse was the chap said it's not a secret but then refused to do it He said it wasn't very secret [it isn't], that it was available on Google [it is], but that he woudln't share it because he promised not to [he did]. Pretty much the only honest and open answer he can give, surely? |
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New Thu 8 Feb 18 19:08
Masons & the Media - sooty123
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> He said it wasn't very secret [it isn't], that it was available on Google [it >> is], but that he woudln't share it because he promised not to [he did]. >> >> Pretty much the only honest and open answer he can give, surely? >> He was fine until the last bit, but by going into the interview bound in that manner and he and the FM knew that they would bring it up, he's done the exact opposite of what he is trying to do. It was a pr own goal. Last edited by: sooty123 on Thu 8 Feb 18 at 19:09
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New Thu 8 Feb 18 17:41
Masons & the Media - Bromptonaut
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>> I don't know who I think is more ridiculous, the Grand Lodge or the BBC. >> They'd both be better off not talking. Once the Grand Lodge have gone public with adverts it's news and I guess the BBC have to report it. Why the Grand Lodge is going so 'over the top' is another issue; cannot think how it can work out well for them. |
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New Thu 8 Feb 18 17:44
Masons & the Media - No FM2R
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>>Why the Grand Lodge is going so 'over the top' is another issue; cannot think how it can work out well for them. Me neither. They are are often ridiculous, but this is ridiculous in a new direction. |
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New Thu 8 Feb 18 18:29
Masons & the Media - R.P.
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| Dabbled with them in 07/08 - not for me. |
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New Thu 8 Feb 18 19:19
Masons & the Media - Bromptonaut
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>> Dabbled with them in 07/08 - not for me. We've recently had annual get togethers for old friends from the YHA group where I met Mrs B. One of them is an active Freemason and offered to introduce me. I hope my polite decline didn't offend. I've limited patience with formality and ritual when professionally required, certainly not something I'd do for recreation. |
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New Thu 8 Feb 18 20:25
Masons & the Media - No FM2R
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>>I hope my polite decline didn't offend. It wouldn't. Though I am a little surprised he offered without previously having worked out your views. |
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New Thu 8 Feb 18 21:04
Masons & the Media - Bromptonaut
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>> It wouldn't. Though I am a little surprised he offered without previously having worked out >> your views. He knew my early twenties self well enough; we were good friends at time. If he'd thought about it, and knew my views hadn't changed, then you're right. OTOH, and this is probably nearer truth, he maybe thought it an act of kindness that a recently redundant (fellow) Civil Servant would welcome. He's one of those genuinely generous people who will do stuff for friends. Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 8 Feb 18 at 21:08
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New Thu 8 Feb 18 20:28
Masons & the Media - No FM2R
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>> Dabbled with them in 07/08 - not for me. Not for many, in fact. All lodges are essentially the same structurally, procedurally and in charter, but their characters and personalities can vary dramatically. Depends on why it wasn't for you as to whether or not that matters. |
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New Thu 8 Feb 18 21:44
Masons & the Media - helicopter
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Well I am quite happy to admit that I am a Mason and have been an active member for over 40 years and I can say that I have never come across any evidence of corruption in that time . UGLE has been in existence for 300 years and is a huge fundraising organisation second only I believe to the National Lottery in contributing to good causes. Joining is one of the best decisions I have made and led to lifelong friendships with many fine upstanding charitable and genuine people with a strong moral compass who are simply fed up with the baseless weasel words and insinuations of such left wing rags as the Guardian questioning our intregrity If you want to find out more then here is the link to the United Grand Lodge of England. www.ugle.org.uk/ Last edited by: helicopter on Thu 8 Feb 18 at 21:45
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New Thu 8 Feb 18 21:59
Masons & the Media - Zero
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| Why were they formed all those centuries ago? Why were they secret?why is it an invite only membership, why do they exist? |
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New Thu 8 Feb 18 23:03
Masons & the Media - bathtub tom
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My late FIL used to get 'merry' every Christmas and invite me to join. I always refused on account of the 'plain brown envelopes' that used to fall on his doormat - he was a building administrator in the NHS. I was invited to a 'ladies evening' once with SWMBO. My MIL remarked 'what's he said' after seeing the face of guest sitting next to me. I'd said I worked for the Inland Revenue! |
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New Thu 8 Feb 18 23:34
Masons & the Media - Ted
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I never joined but I went to a couple or three 'dos' at 'the old blue lamp ' lodge locally 'cos a colleague was. There was a Burns night and a couple of ladies evenings . I didn't have dinner dress so I wore a lounge suit, as did many others. The highlight ?? was a male singer who looked like a thirties gigolo with a red bow tie on who came round singing 'Only a Rose, like Arthur Tracey on speed and giving red roses to the girls. I whispered to the wife ' I can't believe I'm doing this ! '. She giggled, the lady opposite giggled, I sniggered and was never invited again ! The grub wasn't that good either. The upshot was that my mason colleague used to take SWM to dos and I spent the evening sleeping with his wife...............sadly in separate armchairs in front of the telly. I did get to take her to a couple of obscure operas, however, which the other two weren't interested in ! |
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New Thu 8 Feb 18 23:24
Masons & the Media - helicopter
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Originally Zeddo , lodges were founded by operative stonemasons who worked on the building of cathedrals and other grand stone built buildings . They were very protective of their trade secrets and wanted to ensure that their workmanship was always to the highest standard and so needed to be able to recognise a genuine mason from an imposter and what level of skill he had when he came to join the workforce. The best way to do this was and still is by invitation or recommendation from another mason but it is not always necessary as you will find out if you read the link to UGLE. These days most lodges are not operative and it is more of a philanthropic organisation existing to make its members better men irrespective of colour creed race or religion. Hope that helps. |
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New Thu 8 Feb 18 23:35
Masons & the Media - smokie
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I spent quite some years in a service organisation (specifically Round Table) and that was My mason mate has said if I ever want to join he'd take me along, but having discussed at length what goes on, and watched that documentary last year, it's not for me, but I have no problem with it's existence or it's modus operandi. If they want to be a bot secretive then why not? No skin off my nose really. My mate's wife won't got to any Masonic events (we regularly go to Burns Night and have done Ladies Nights) as she thinks they are all corrupt and too ready to help each other out. She misses the point that if you are a member of a club or society which has a plumber as a member and you have a leaking tap, you ask him before calling round your local plumbers. There were undoubtedly times in the past when Masons were corrupt. And I'd be surprised if there were not people in Masonry who initially joined to gain an advantage, maybe in business. But it'd be a lot of hard work and effort to remain a Mason for probably not a lot of return. I would however say that my perception from him and elsewhere is that a lot of the fund raising is for the benefit of the members rather than the general public. |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 09:28
Masons & the Media - car4play
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>> I have no problem with it's existence or it's modus operandi. If they want to be a bot secretive then why not? No skin off my nose really. ... until you are sitting in a courtroom and you realise that your solicitor who is meant to be working for you is a mason, and the opposition law firm is also run by masons and for all you know the judge is probably in on it too. You know this from the way they are behaving (withholding key evidence, biasing arguments, incorrect calculations etc. all in favour of the other party) and a subsequent google search confirms your suspicions... The point of all this is they have sworn a primary duty to each other and this trumps everything including the law, fair behaviour and so on. Of course they would say this never goes on, but they would, wouldn't they. |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 09:47
Masons & the Media - helicopter
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So there you are merely proving the point made by Grand Lodge Stephen. You are maligning all solicitors judges police as corrupt and have no shred of evidence to back up your assertions. Witholding evidence and incorrect calculations seem to me to be more down to incompetence and overworked police than conspiracy and corruption. They have not sworn a primary duty to each other either.All offences contrary to the laws of the realm are specifically excluded. Please take the time to read the link to UGLE . |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 10:51
Masons & the Media - car4play
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>> more down to incompetence and overworked police than conspiracy and corruption You are also correct that it could be just down to gross incompetence, but when you are actually on multiple occasions shoving the evidence in front of the solicitor to present and he is deliberately pushing it to one side, one starts to alter one's feeling of the situation from unintentional incompetence to intentional sabotage. >>You are maligning all solicitors judges police as corrupt and have no shred of evidence to back up your assertions. You are correct again of course, but how would anyone one have any evidence given that it is a secret society and dealings are done on a 'handshake'. The point is that it doesn't mean that my assertion of inside collution wasn't correct either. I mean it works even at the 'mates' level where one 'mate' will sometimes prejudice themselves just to help another, or, for example wife will often cover for a husband's crime and so on. It isn't that big a leap to make to assume an organisation that exists for it's own members doesn't have some kind of particular allegiance to each other in outside activities. Having a secret membership, secret signs, secret rituals, secret levels of understanding to be attained which are hidden to lower levels, secret religious symbolism, I could go on... doesn't exactly help gain the TRUST of outsiders. I tell you what you freemasons could do for us all. Why not simply publish the names of all people on your grand lodge website that are freemasons and their level of attainment in the organisation? That way I can make informed choices. If I think there is no bias, then I don't bother consulting the list and so on. |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 11:41
Masons & the Media - Zero
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>> >> more down to incompetence and overworked police than conspiracy and corruption >> >> You are also correct that it could be just down to gross incompetence, In truth the root cause is likely to be the now criminal lack of funding and move of resources to internal security.Cant blame that on the Masons tho, the person responsible for that is a woman |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 11:36
Masons & the Media - Zero
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>> Please take the time to read the link to UGLE . >> It's no good keep saying that, it's rather like saying " watch North Korea TV news to find out what's good about the DPRK" That masons and Lodges have been corrupt for the benefit of members at the expense of outsiders is a given, certainly in my living memory. Modern life has seen them marginalised and losing influence which is why some grand poo bah is whining |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 13:01
Masons & the Media - helicopter
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You are also confirming precisly what Grand Lodge is complaining about Zeddo. It is not a ' given' '., it is an unsubstantiated and unproven statement from someone who should know better but who believes the twaddle perpetuated in particular by the left wing press who keep on repeating the lies . If I made a statement that all members of motoring internet forums were corrupt self serving crooks and it must be true because I read in the Guardian would you believe it? Of course not.... UGLE have decided that enough is enough and that they will set the record straight. That is why I refer you to the UGLE website. If you can not be bothered to get the other side of the argument and make a balanced judgement then perhaps I am wasting my time |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 09:54
Masons & the Media - Dog
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My present book-at-bedtime: www.amazon.co.uk/Inside-Brotherhood-Explosive-Secrets-Freemasons/dp/0007334141 (*_*) |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 10:43
Masons & the Media - Mapmaker
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>> ... until you are sitting in a courtroom and you realise that your solicitor who >> is meant to be working for you is a mason, and the opposition law firm >> is also run by masons and for all you know the judge is probably in >> on it too. Worse, the barrister representing you, the barrister representing the other side and the judge were all at school together. Were all at University together. Went to law school together. Dine together in the Inns of Court regularly. That they are all masons too is a side-show. Of course they all know each other just as people who write websites know a lot of other people who write websites. |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 10:52
Masons & the Media - car4play
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>> just as people who write websites know a lot of other people who write websites .. no they don't. We sit behind screens in dark lonely places... ;-) |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 11:03
Masons & the Media - No FM2R
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>>The point of all this is they have sworn a primary duty to each other and this trumps everything including the law, fair behaviour and so on. No they haven't, specifically to the contrary in fact. |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 11:25
Masons & the Media - car4play
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>>>>The point of all this is they have sworn a primary duty to each other and this trumps everything including the law, fair behaviour and so on. >> No they haven't, specifically to the contrary in fact. Ok, I shouldn't have put the word 'law' in there and by overstating the point I have probably lost you on the point I am making. More accurately : Masonic rules state that members must do all they can to support each other, to look after each other and to keep each others' lawful secrets. Years ago they used to have a load of sworn oaths about disembowelment to go with this, but I believe that these have now been dropped. However, the idea still stands. So you can see in the example I gave, the solicitor wasn't doing anything 'unlawful', but it did seem to be in accordance with the principle of supporting his fellow Brotherhood above his client. For me that is breaking what I would consider to be a 'moral' law even if it isn't the law of the land. My bad at not being accurate enough. |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 13:30
Masons & the Media - TheManWithNoName
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Perhaps the ads are needed because my perception of Masons are a bunch of old farts who wear suits, bow ties, strange pinnafores and white gloves and who are corrupt networkers who do a bit of fundraising on the side to make themselves feel good and give themselves a public persona. No doubt you'll tell me I'm wrong but that's my perception and whilst this seemingly archaic outfit continues to exist shrouded in mystery, my perceptions, rightly or wrongly, won't change. They seem to be the antithesis of the WI. Years ago a Masons lodge was our office overspill car park. One evening they held a meeting and someone blocked my car in with their dirty great Mercedes. I had to walk into the lobby surrounded by balding, fat old guys all wearing their gloves and ask if the owner could move their car. It was intimidating and I couldn't wait to get out! |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 13:51
Masons & the Media - helicopter
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Man with no name , I was at a meeting earlier this week when over 200 were dining and at least 6 members were called out to move their cars because the car park was rammed full and they were blocking other Masons. It is not a conspiracy against you. The members ranged in age from 21 to 90 plus and are no more intimidating than any other group of men. So why is your perception of them as corrupt networkers? It seems to me that you need to perhaps reflect on that question and decide whether your views are based on facts |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 13:59
Masons & the Media - TheManWithNoName
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www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/05/freemasons-masons Seems I'm not alone. |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 14:31
Masons & the Media - helicopter
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That particular article in the left wing rag The Guardian is precisely the sort of twaddle which caused the UGLE to make a complaint to the press governing body with a request for an apology and retraction . In particular the weasel completely unsubstantiated inference of corruption and collusion in Lodges meeting in Westminster is wrong in almost every respect . #Enough is enough. |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 14:55
Masons & the Media - Bromptonaut
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>> That particular article in the left wing rag The Guardian is precisely the sort of >> twaddle which caused the UGLE to make a complaint to the press governing body with >> a request for an apology and retraction . The piece does though contain a quote from Brian Paddick about the way fellow police officers responded with different body language as soon as they knew he was a Mason. I'm happy to accept the the UGLE itself is as clean as a whistle. But while there are branches of Freemasonry (or any other secretive society) at large in the Police or in Parliament there is scope for corruption and the doing of favours. Paddick is not the only person to relate personal experiences and there have been other books like that referenced by Dog above that appear to suggest at very least a cause for concern. What the outgoing Police Federation guy says also has an unfortunate ring of plausibility about it - the Met was the force labelled by a Judge as institutionally racist. Transparency is desperately needed. |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 15:21
Masons & the Media - helicopter
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Just to be clear Bromptonaut the specific statement made in that Guardian link that lodges containing MPs and lobby journalists meet in the Palace of Westminster is a complete fabrication deliberately phrased to imply there must be corruption . I accept that many police are Masons and I know many of them from constable to Commander level but that does not mean they are corrupt or affect the way they do their job. |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 15:32
Masons & the Media - car4play
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>> that does not mean they are corrupt or affect the way they do their job True, but I repeat my assertion that the only way you guys will start to alleviate people's concerns will be to publish a membership list. Rank, lodge would also be helpful. We are supposed to be living in a FREE western democracy... Oh wait. I've just seen a pig fly past my window ... Exactly. There IS something to hide. |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 15:55
Masons & the Media - Pat
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>>We are supposed to be living in a FREE western democracy...<< Exactly, free to participate in a mutually acceptable secret 'club' if we wish surely? Freedom works both ways you know. Pat |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 16:10
Masons & the Media - car4play
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>>Exactly, free to participate in a mutually acceptable secret 'club' if we wish surely? Only if that behaviour has no impact on others. By not publishing it reduces my ability to make informed choices. This forum and its members have no bearing on the society outside of it. Therefore there is no need for transparency of members. So we do not require that members agree to it. If, for example, you could only make decisions on road planning if you are a member of this site, then, in the interests of freedom and transparency it would be our duty to insist that any members are known to the wider public. I am positing that because Freemasons have an understanding of mutual self-interest, this has potential implications on those outside in certain situations, and which they need to know in a free and open society. |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 16:23
Masons & the Media - Pat
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I think, with the greatest of respect, that you are grossly over reacting. It's very easy to get fixated with what's wrong with something because of a personal experience and not focus on the wider picture. There are many times in our lives we have to rely on trust, friends and the ethics of both of those. That loyalty you question would not have been in question, had it been in your 'favour', as you saw it. I find I'm often critical of others and quite happy to say so but just now and again I realise what I'm critical of, is actually what I'm also guilty of. When that happens I try and take a step back, give myself a good talking to, and try and resolve not to be so narrow minded ever again. Druids, Bards and Ovates, Pagans all have their rituals, none of them particularly want to make them public but it doesn't make them bad. Pat |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 16:57
Masons & the Media - car4play
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With respect Pat you didn't answer any of my points. You just accused me of over reacting and basically said that I was reacting emotionally negatively towards this group because of a personal experience. This is highly presumptuous and incorrect. >> That loyalty you question would not have been in question... Yes, presumptuous and, dare I say, arrogant to assume you know me better than me. If it had been in my favour, given my concerns about corruption you are implying I am ok with that? I am not! As it happens I have held these views of openness and transparency for FM for a long time simply because it is a good idea for society as a whole. In fact before the case I asked the solicitor if he was a member and in hindsight I see he evaded the question. So no, I have wanted this openness regardless of the actual case. Conflating this idea with private membership of other groups like this forum, druids and the like implies that you did not do me the courtesy of actually reading and understanding my post. >> try and resolve not to be so narrow minded ever again ... did you not read my post to Zero on the EU post? In case you missed it "All truth claims are by definition exclusive". That's a fact. Narrow-mindedness is not the problem. Lack of an open mind is. Not even giving space to my point of view shows a lack of an open mind. >> Druids, Bards and Ovates, Pagans all have their rituals, none of them particularly want to make them public but it doesn't make them bad. Can you not see yourself adding words to my mouth? When did I say they were 'bad'. Did you miss the part where I said "they tend to want people of good character"? Or where you coming from a position where your mind was already made up about what I am saying? i.e. a closed mind? And I never implied anything bad about the use of rituals - I actually believe many are useful. I was merely saying that the particular rituals for entry into the higher levels could be problematic in mixed sex environments - something Helicopter himself has essentially agreed with but without the detail. I just happened to give the detail as it really shows why it could be problematic. |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 17:12
Masons & the Media - Pat
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I think your reaction confirms my previous post to be honest. Anything anyone says in defence of the Masons is going to annoy and infuriate you, so it is a complete waste of time. If I pass the point of being able to look at something objectively, I have to stop and ask myself if it may be me who has gone a bit OTT with it. You assume I wasn't aware of the details of the rituals and chose to give details? I was asking Helicopter if there any other more obscure reason I may not have been aware of. Both he and Mark have already answered that. I'm not here to defend my admiration for the Masons and what they do. I don't have to do that. Neither am I here to argue with your opinion of them, that also is your right to hold that opinion. However, allow me to have mine as well without having to justify it any more than I have done. Pat |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 17:28
Masons & the Media - car4play
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>>You assume I wasn't aware of the details of the rituals and chose to give details? >> I was asking Helicopter if there any other more obscure reason I may not have been aware of. Previously: >>That makes absolute sense as does Helicopters reply about the rituals and I can certainly see why now. Not an unreasonable assumption given that your word 'now' implies you didn't know then. I'm sorry Pat but I'm not going to reply any more to you because I don't think it is helping either of us. |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 17:32
Masons & the Media - Pat
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I was at that point 2 hours ago car4play, but still wanted to participate in the general discussion and ask questions. Unfortunately as often happens, you assumed it was all aimed at you personally and it certainly wasn't. Pat |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 15:57
Masons & the Media - helicopter
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Well C4P are you prepared to publish details of all the members on C4P, names , emails , addresses etc to prove to me that they are not corrupt manipulative networkers dedicated to the downfall of society as we know it? Of course you will not because we all have a right to privacy and data protection in any social network whether Freemasonry ( the original social network ) Facebook or C4P. |
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New Sat 10 Feb 18 11:36
Masons & the Media - madf
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SQ >> True, but I repeat my assertion that the only way you guys will start to >> alleviate people's concerns will be to publish a membership list. Rank, lodge would also be >> helpful. My local Beekeeping Association does not publish a list of members. Correspondence between committee members is conducted via a private broadcast email system. Our National Beekeeping Association does not publish a list of members. So Beekeeping is the refuge of people who want to join a secret society and wear funny clothes and wave smoke in the air. They should be banned. Some people obviously have no sense of proportion. PS I'm not a mason, never have been and never will be. Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 10 Feb 18 at 18:00
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New Sat 10 Feb 18 11:48
Masons & the Media - Bromptonaut
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>> So Beekeeping is the refuge of people who want to join a secret society and >> wear funny clothes and wave smoke in the air. They should be banned. >> Some people obviously have no sense of proportion. Bee keeping is an esoteric pastime/hobby presumably followed in same way as touring cycling or plane spotting. There's never been any suggestion that there are are cabals of beekeepers at the highest levels of government, the law etc. I did know a solicitor who was also a beekeeper but she died last year. |
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New Sat 10 Feb 18 11:59
Masons & the Media - Lygonos
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| Got a couple of patients who were keen beekeepers but gradually became increasingly allergic to the stings and had to give up. |
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New Sat 10 Feb 18 12:41
Masons & the Media - sooty123
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There's never been any suggestion that there are are cabals of beekeepers at >> the highest levels of government, the law etc. Ah that's what they want you to think ;-) |
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New Sat 10 Feb 18 12:52
Masons & the Media - Haywain
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"So Beekeeping is the refuge of people who want to join a secret society and wear funny clothes and wave smoke in the air. They should be banned." ...... and what proportion of bee-keepers are from ethnic minorities? |
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New Sat 10 Feb 18 13:20
Masons & the Media - madf
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>> "So Beekeeping is the refuge of people who want to join a secret society and >> wear funny clothes and wave smoke in the air. They should be banned." >> >> ...... and what proportion of bee-keepers are from ethnic minorities? >> I would guess in N Staffordshire where I am about 1%...Not many ethnics around here. Beekeeping is a hobby for the affluent or those able and willing to DIY (and it's on the edge of "difficult to very difficult" DIY due to tolerances required). It's also a hobby for the middle aged/retired although we are gradually moving into schools (and prisons where wanted).. Initial outlays if you buy everything new is c £750-£1000 for 2 hives. A keen DIYer (or bodger like me) can do it for half that - or less if lucky.. I started out in 2010 spending under £250 and with two hives. So if you are ethnic and poor, you are unlikely to live in an area suitable for beekeeping and have the skills /and/or money. It is also a hobby slightly esoteric with limited membership (c 25-30,000 in England) so actually meeting a beekeeper in real life is unlikely. Many parts of England are a desert for bees- particularly those with large scale agriculture. Bees do best in towns/cities and rural areas with woodland and gardens. |
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New Sat 10 Feb 18 13:53
Masons & the Media - Bromptonaut
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>> So if you are ethnic and poor, you are unlikely to live in an area >> suitable for beekeeping and have the skills /and/or money. Really it comes down to being poor. As well as the cost issue a poor person your more likely to live in an area where bees don't thrive and keeping them in small gardens risks conflict with neighbours. And people from ethnic minorities are far more likely to be poor or relatively poor. Pedants Footnote: Using the ethnics as shorthand for black/asian etc is incorrect usage. We all have ethnicity, mine and I suspect madf's too, is White British. It's also borderline offensive due to use of thee term 'effnics' by people who are just bright enough to realise that Ni**er and C**n are no longer acceptable. |
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New Sat 10 Feb 18 15:25
Masons & the Media - Pat
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>>Pedants Footnote: Using the ethnics as shorthand for black/asian etc is incorrect usage. We all have ethnicity, mine and I suspect madf's too, is White British. It's also borderline offensive due to use of thee term 'effnics' by people who are just bright enough to realise that Ni**er and C**n are no longer acceptable.<< You can dress that up and assuage your conscience as much as you like calling it pedantry but it isn't pedantry at all. It's an attempt to find a reason to be offended when none exists. It's reading a biased and angled view into something that isn't there. What's worse, it sows the seeds in others minds that it *may* be there, so they start to look for it too. It is, in a nutshell, what is inherently wrong with this world today. Pat Last edited by: Pat on Sat 10 Feb 18 at 15:26
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New Sat 10 Feb 18 15:58
Masons & the Media - Bromptonaut
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>> You can dress that up and assuage your conscience as much as you like calling >> it pedantry but it isn't pedantry at all. >> >> It's an attempt to find a reason to be offended when none exists. It's reading >> a biased and angled view into something that isn't there. I'm not offended, just making a (perhaps pedantic) point. Which bit do you disagree with?: (a) That the word is ethnic is wrongly used as synonymous with non white or not western (b) That the word can be, and is, used pejoratively and that as such it could be offensive |
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New Sat 10 Feb 18 16:06
Masons & the Media - Pat
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The fact you have to ask those questions Bromp, proves you are looking for that angle where it doesn't exist. Ethnic is used pretty much as a 'safe' word these days and there are precious few of those around. To try and make it even more difficult to describe a person from another country, with a different colour skin without being called a racist, is just making a problem where one doesn't exist. Surely you can see that by highlighting things like this you are perpetrating the agenda you are looking for? By making an issue out of it you are promoting the 'issue' that otherwise wouldn't exist. Pat |
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New Sat 10 Feb 18 16:15
Masons & the Media - Bromptonaut
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>> The fact you have to ask those questions Bromp, proves you are looking for that >> angle where it doesn't exist. So you cannot or will not answer them? As with Paki use of the word ethnics where I work would be a disciplinary issue as well as one that would lose me the respect of my non white colleagues. There are plenty of terms you can use; Black, Asian, African or just ethnic minority/minorities rather than ethnics. |
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New Sat 10 Feb 18 16:38
Masons & the Media - Pat
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>>use of the word ethnics where I work would be a disciplinary issue << And that is the root of the problem in a nutshell. Most of us now are scared to talk about any other person of non English origin because whatever was fashionable and acceptable yesterday, suddenly is racist and unacceptable today. It's a ridiculous situation where the use of words is changing overnight according to certain vocal people's definition. What they (and you) lack is to take this use of words in context. Ask yourself some questions before getting on your high moral horse. Whas there any intent to be derogatory? Whast there any intent to be discriminatory? Was there any superior intent in the statement? If you can't answer yes to all three of those then just jog on, and let the world rub along nicely the way it does in the the real world of people who live alongside each other very happilly with no animosity In the wider world you seem to never visit, this is how it works until you come along and hint at racism slurs. Pat |
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New Sat 10 Feb 18 18:12
Masons & the Media - Bromptonaut
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>> Whas there any intent to be derogatory? >> >> Whast there any intent to be discriminatory? >> >> Was there any superior intent in the statement? None of those things, which was why I commented from point of pedantry about use of language rather than reporting offence and flinging frownies around. Whether you like it or not the way words are used changes. It doesn't happen overnight; it's 20 years at least since I first saw others point out that 'ethnics' was used pejoratively and offensively. In fact, thinking more, a guy we met during ante-natal classes used it offensively in one of the sessions and was pulled up on it by the teacher. The daughter we were expecting at the time is now 25. Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 10 Feb 18 at 18:14
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New Sun 11 Feb 18 12:00
Masons & the Media - Pat
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>>None of those things, which was why I commented from point of pedantry about use of language rather than reporting offence and flinging frownies around. << In that case it would have been far better left unsaid. Pat |
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New Sun 11 Feb 18 10:41
Masons & the Media - madf
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>> >> There are plenty of terms you can use; Black, Asian, African or just ethnic minority/minorities >> rather than ethnics. >> Thank you for that lecture in Political Correctness. I tried to answer a question (which I suspected was frivolous) as fairly and evenly as possible. And in return I receive a lecture.. No wonder some people tend to react badly. I am too old and cynical to bother..but being lectured to (or at) is hardly going to change my views if I am racist. Indeed it might well have the opposite effect. |
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New Sun 11 Feb 18 10:51
Masons & the Media - Bromptonaut
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>> No wonder some people tend to react badly. I am too old and cynical to >> bother..but being lectured to (or at) is hardly going to change my views if I >> am racist. Indeed it might well have the opposite effect. I'm sorry, I didn't intend to imply that you were a racist, or to give a lecture. I was making a general point about a fairly common misuse of a word in our language. The point was expanded after Pat weighed in, I suspect without her usual thought before doing so. She has yet to explain why I am wrong about (a) the word's proper meaning and/or (b) the fact it can cause offence. Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 11 Feb 18 at 10:52
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New Sun 11 Feb 18 11:03
Masons & the Media - Haywain
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"I was making a general point about a fairly common misuse of a word in our language" Trouble is, Brompt, that unless you make a hobby of it, keeping up with the use of words and phrases can be quite difficult. 'Coloured person' is wrong nowadays, but 'person of colour' is OK; can you explain that for me, please? 'Black' was once considered derogatory (remember the problems with black coffee, black sheep etc?), but now it is, seemingly, the favoured word. How do you feel about 'brown'? |
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New Sun 11 Feb 18 11:21
Masons & the Media - Bromptonaut
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>> Trouble is, Brompt, that unless you make a hobby of it, keeping up with the >> use of words and phrases can be quite difficult. 'Coloured person' is wrong nowadays, but >> 'person of colour' is OK; can you explain that for me, please? Coloured/people of colour is mostly an American thing where the offence arises because the term harks back to the era of segregation. Probably same in SA. Article here explains: www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/30999175/warning-why-using-the-term-coloured-is-offensive As writer of that piece says this side of pond it's just a bit old fashioned, like referring to followers of Islam as Mohammedans >> 'Black' was once considered derogatory (remember the problems with black coffee, black sheep etc?), but >> now it is, seemingly, the favoured word. How do you feel about 'brown'? I think you're right in that there was a period, perhaps 30+ years ago where the term black man (or woman) was regarded as, at least, impolite. Probably for similar reasons to use of colored in US. In UK's case it was seen as harking back to empire and images of black savages. It became acceptable when West Indians and others started to use it as a badge of pride. Much of the black sheep/black coffee/chalkboard thing is either complete myth or examples of one individual going over the top. That doesn't though make the 'joke' about African men giving you black looks either acceptable or funny. |
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New Sat 10 Feb 18 20:48
Masons & the Media - Haywain
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"...... and what proportion of bee-keepers are from ethnic minorities?" A couple of friends are bee-keepers; it is a time-consuming and skilled tradition. I can work out that few from the ethnic minorities will have taken up bee-husbandry; indeed, some things are the way they are because of what they are, and because of their history - there is nothing particularly sinister in that. My remark was just a dig (alas, too subtle for some) at those souls who would try to make something of these situations. I have a tendency to mock today's sniffers and the permanently-offended ........ and it looks like someone bit. |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 14:32
Masons & the Media - Pat
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>>Seems I'm not alone.<< Not being a lone voice doesn't make it a right one though! Helicopter, would you take the time to explain something to me please? I have a couple of friends who are Masons and I've always had a favourable impression of what it's all about. I've sat and read your link with interest today but still have something puzzling me that neither of them (friends or link) have ever answered satisfactorily. I accept the origins of the Order and that primarily in years gone by it would be mainly male orientated, however there are now a few Female Lodges and quite right too. Why do they not have mixed lodges though, and why are they kept apart? TIA Pat |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 14:53
Masons & the Media - Cliff Pope
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>> >> Why do they not have mixed lodges though, and why are they kept apart? >> A bit like public toilets perhaps - slow change. And just as uninteresting a subject. |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 15:01
Masons & the Media - Pat
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>>A bit like public toilets perhaps - slow change. And just as uninteresting a subject.<< Well thanks Cliff but that's exactly the kind of explanation I've had in the past. Strange as it may seem, I do have the ability to understand a more detailed one. Pat |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 14:56
Masons & the Media - helicopter
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Well I quite simply do not know the full answer to that one Pat . I suspect that it may be because in some of the rituals we practice which are in fact a form of morality playacting then some symbolic interactions which are OK between men to men or woman to woman are not acceptable between men and woman . I cannot give you any better explanation. I am glad that you have taken the time to read the link and ask a sensible question ( unlike some on here).😊 |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 14:59
Masons & the Media - Bobby
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>>I suspect that it may be because in some of the rituals we practice which are in fact a form of morality playacting then some symbolic interactions which are OK between men to men go on, tell us what these are? |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 15:07
Masons & the Media - smokie
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| Has your own Google packed up Bobby? |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 15:14
Masons & the Media - Bobby
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| No, how? |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 15:17
Masons & the Media - car4play
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>> Why do they not have mixed lodges though, and why are they kept apart? So let's consider some scenario that could likely happen: Woman joins lodge. All seems straightforward and a good idea for all the reasons you might like it now. Then she enters the Third Degree she goes through some secret initiation ceremony that involves being blindfolded by a group of men and laid down in some kind of symbolic representation of a grave in a reenactment of the death and resurrection of Hiram Abiff ... (notice I said 'laid down' - not 'laid' so that some of the guys on here don't get the wrong idea) Maybe if that woman was an undercover reporter like the one at the Presidents Club, well you get the picture. Edit: I was writing this before I read helicopter's reply. I'm glad he basically confirms what I am saying. I notice he won't give any details and I understand why. Basically he has uttered, and enacted, a load of curses upon himself should he ever divulge the secrets. Last edited by: car4play on Fri 9 Feb 18 at 15:22
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 16:00
Masons & the Media - Pat
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>>Basically he has uttered, and enacted, a load of curses upon himself should he ever divulge the secrets.<< To turn your own argument back on yourself, that is your view! What he has actually done is used his freedom to do something he wants do do, something we should all be able to do without hindrance from anyone. Pat |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 16:13
Masons & the Media - car4play
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>> something we should all be able to do without hindrance from anyone I've not stopped him, so where is the hinderance? >> To turn your own argument back on yourself, that is your view It's not my view - it's just what they do. |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 16:18
Masons & the Media - smokie
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To be fair, of the Masons I know, most say that the secrecy and ritual is a considerable part of why they stay in the Masons. They absolutely don't want to know what happens further up the food chain till their turn comes. As far as I can tell it's nothing to do with curses or utterings, it's just that's a big bit of what the whole thing is about. I do know one who left a few years ago. He'd progressed a bit but not much. His heart clearly wasn't in it and it's conceivable (though he'd never admit it) that he joined for "business reasons" and realised that it wasn't for him. he did last a few years though. Oh, and he is still alive and kicking today, and hasn't been hung from Blackfriars Bridge, or had his heart wrenched from his body!! :-) I think it's a massive shame that everyone thinks they have the right to poke their nose into everyone else's business these days, and more so that they then publish their outrage and whip up a frenzy over nothing much at all While this is obviously sometimes justified, we are quickly moving towards being a society of droids controlled by the thought police. Orwell anyone? |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 16:35
Masons & the Media - No FM2R
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>> it's conceivable (though he'd never admit it) that he joined for "business reasons" and realised that it wasn't for him In my experience some people do join for what they expect to be 'advantage'. They almost always leave again. Especially true in London. Especially true in Lodges based in Gt. Queen St. This is always an issue when Lodge's are seeking members and seek too hard. Standards drop and insincere people join. They rarely, if ever, last. IMO. |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 16:39
Masons & the Media - No FM2R
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>>Why do they not have mixed lodges though, and why are they kept apart? Male only lodges for historical reasons. Female only lodges for modern reasons. Why not mixed? Well, in the beginning for historical and traditional reasons. These days though I think it is simpler than that. If one is going to an all male meeting then one cannot be either coerced into taking one's partner nor blamed for not doing so. If there are no females there, then there is no worry nor accusation as to what you might be getting up to. And for many people it is a pleasant interlude uninterrupted by day to day life. |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 16:50
Masons & the Media - Pat
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That makes absolute sense as does Helicopters reply about the rituals and I can certainly see why now. As a female I have no problem with that. Pat |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 18:42
Masons & the Media - BiggerBadderDave
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"Why not mixed?" Cos people like me would join. Or join in... |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 16:51
Masons & the Media - sooty123
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Why do they not have mixed lodges though, and why are they kept apart? Apparently there are a few not many at all but they are out there. |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 13:57
Masons & the Media - smokie
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I find myself defending them even though I'm not part of it. I understand why people do it, and I'm tolerant enough to let them get on with it, without sneering at them, even though it's not for me. I suspect much of the anecdotal evidence here is just "in theory" rather thane based on any (recent) fact. I accept that there certainly used to be a whiff around masonry which likley had some substance, but that'd be back in the 1960s or thereabouts. Or maybe someone can come up with some more recent evidence of unfair practices in Masonry? Did anyone see the documentary series on the Masons, last year I think? |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 13:27
Masons & the Media - sooty123
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>> ... until you are sitting in a courtroom and you realise that your solicitor who >> is meant to be working for you is a mason, and the opposition law firm >> is also run by masons and for all you know the judge is probably in >> on it too. You know this from the way they are behaving (withholding key evidence, >> biasing arguments, incorrect calculations etc. all in favour of the other party) and a subsequent >> google search confirms your suspicions... You sound as if you speak from experience? Did you complain about the conduct? |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 13:33
Masons & the Media - helicopter
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| I agree with Sooty that it does appear that you have had a bad experience C4P but I fail to see how it equates to a Masonic conspiracy...perhaps you would care to tell us more ..or is it a secret?😊 |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 14:48
Masons & the Media - car4play
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>> Did you complain about the conduct? We did but then once it got really messy and complicated decided to drop it and leave the battle to someone else with more resources to burn. However it has changed my perception of the justice system completely as the bias was apparent from the start and it was like watching a slow train crash as a result of deception and lies. At least it was only over dosh and nothing more significant. It could well be simply a case of gross incompetence as opposed to some grand conspiracy, but then, without going into the details, which shall remain 'secret' (sorry chopper), for me the shear number of unusual events that stacked up makes me tend to the latter. FYI I do have a number of clients and friends who are masons, even one from a previous church who is really high up in the organisation - even to the point of having his own priest! I also have friends who are ex third degree masons and have gone through several rounds of counselling to renounce the curses they have uttered over themselves. I have even been propositioned to become one and as they tend to want people of good character I took that as a complement. I declined. At the lower levels it just appears as a charitable, fun club where everyone is accepted regardless of background. However, my understanding is that at the higher levels it takes on more sinister religious undertones which for me would be detrimental to my faith. I repeat my assertion that membership and rank should be made public. If there is nothing really to hide, then this should not be a problem. |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 16:14
Masons & the Media - Ted
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I have no thoughts either way about Masons, I suppose I'm a bit anti-social anyway and the thought of a monkey suit or even a collar and tie horrifies me. On a slightly different tack, I have in front of me a neat leather wallet containing my late FiL's Masonic Apron. I don't suppose any of my kids would want it and their kids, still young, have no face to face knowledge of the guy. Where can I dispose of it ? Perhaps 'Copter could point me to somewhere or to the actual Lodge, which is 'Villiers Lodge No. 6684' I suspect it may be in the Stockport area. |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 16:28
Masons & the Media - smokie
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Ted - seems that Villiers Lodge merged with the Lodge of Affability No.317 in 2002 or 2004 freemasonrymatters.co.uk/latest-news-freemasonry/the-geneva-bible-cum-prievegio-and-the-lodge-of-affability-no-317/ and www.freemasonry.london.museum/tree/Chart_317.pdf which in turn was closed in 2013 or 2014. See www.freemasonrytoday.com/ugle-sgc/ugle/tag/Lodge%20of%20Affability%20with%20Villiers%20No%20317 Lodge of Affability was founded in 1799 www.dhi.ac.uk/lane/record.php?ID=1539 It says E Lancs in one of those. |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 17:59
Masons & the Media - helicopter
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Ted , you should contact East Lancs Provincial Office and offer it to them, it probably is worthless to anyone except another Mason in that province depending on your fathers rank. I believe that they are based on Rossendale but a quick Google will give you contact details Last edited by: helicopter on Fri 9 Feb 18 at 18:00
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 16:38
Masons & the Media - Haywain
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"I suppose I'm a bit anti-social anyway." Same here; I can't even be bothered with the U3A. "I have in front of me a neat leather wallet containing my late FiL's Masonic Apron. I don't suppose any of my kids would want it" Could you use it when you're doing the cooking? |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 19:53
Masons & the Media - bathtub tom
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>> I have in front of me a neat leather wallet containing my late FiL's Masonic Apron. I don't suppose any of my kids would want it and their kids, still young, have no face to face knowledge of the guy. Where can I dispose of it ? I suggest the last place you contact is a lodge. We did this with my late FILs regalia and a very plausible, seeming gent turned up and said they very much wanted the stuff and it would be put on display in a specially made case. Unfortunately we didn't ask for a receipt. They later denied any knowledge of receiving the regalia. I suppose we could have been conned by a rogue mason, but after my earlier experiences with them, you can probably imagine my feelings. |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 16:29
Masons & the Media - No FM2R
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So many different issues... Corruption/Criminal behaviour. Masons are people. To say that they are never corrupt would be as sensible as saying that they are always corrupt. Any club, of any type, which brings people together and builds relationships will encourage those people to talk and share. Golf club, social club, Masonry. And when people build bonds they start to know each other and perhaps trust each other more. A person is more likely to feel comfortable and confident in a plumber that they know from the golf club than they will a person grabbed from the Yellow Pages (Yes, I know). Ditto a fellow Mason. Club members are people who talk and thus can connive, plan and conspire to do naughty things. Again, to say all Masons do it makes no more sense than to say that none do it. There's so much emphasis on integrity that I'd hope it would be less, but who knows. Such promises as one makes put family and the law in front of all Masonic actions, rules or behaviour. There is little religion, at any level. Partly because it really has no religion and says little more than that members should have a belief system. It does not specific what that system should be or what form your God (or other being) should take. Why Single Sex Historically many traditional reasons. But in reality, these days, simply because the men prefer not to have to involve any women form their life in this activity. And if women simply are not allowed, then one cannot be in any trouble for excluding them personally. Neither can there be any suspicion from wives that you might be doing naughty stuff. Aside from all the formal stuff, its actually a nice and social place to go and have a drink and something to eat with people you feel comfortable with Especially if one spends time outside ones only geography and can find people to socialise with. Business / life / judicial advantage Not really. The advantage, such as it is, is that you may know someone, be able to get references for someone, be able to find a tradesman etc. etc. Again, not unlike the local golf club. Masonic rules prohibit corrupt behaviour. Secrets. Because it's always been that way. Because people are comfortable with it that way. Because people look at you with suspicion. Because people have a right to privacy. Rituals and handshakes and the like. Because Masons like it. Because it brings a formality and tradition to things. It brings a solemnity and strength to things. Because there is pride and merit in doing it well. Because that's how they choose and like to do it. Why should some club make its membership public because you want it that way? You want to join, join. You don't want to join, then don't join. But where does anyone get off telling other people in their club what they should or should not do? >> ex third degree masons and have gone through several rounds of counselling to renounce the curses they have uttered over themselves. I hope you don't do business with the man who told you that. Because he is a liar. >>even to the point of having his own priest! Do what? You have some strange friends. A Mason has promised to behave with integrity at all times. That would appear not to include your friend(s). Hence the 'ex' I assume. |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 16:38
Masons & the Media - car4play
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>>even to the point of having his own priest! Do what? You have some strange friends. Should have clarified - Anglican priest. |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 16:40
Masons & the Media - No FM2R
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Sorry, perhaps I'm being a bit slow here. You believe that this man was so senior in Masonry that he had his own Anglican Priest? Is that what you're saying? |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 17:05
Masons & the Media - sooty123
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| Your not the only one, I'm not sure what c4p means. Does he have his own priest because he's wealthy, he's own fm 'priest', a priest who is an FM in his pocket or something else? |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 17:14
Masons & the Media - Pat
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You're confused Sooty?:) Me too!! Pat |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 17:12
Masons & the Media - car4play
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So he said. There are lodges dedicated to the clergy so it isn't that far fetched. I don't like the word 'priest' anyway and prefer 'vicar'. It's just the word he used. I think I will shutdown now on any more info that I know as I don't want to tread over the disrespectful line. Helicopter will probably think I have already done this and I can only apologise to him if that is the case. I don't mean him bad. As I said, because they seek people of good character he is likely to be one. I do still believe that many of the things they say over themselves are paramount to curses, but that is because I am religious and see them in this way. Others here don't (like you Mark) and simply see them as quaint traditional practices. For that reason when I say that Helicopter has done this I don't mean to malign him for doing so, but it is simply my belief that that is what he has done and imho that is bad for him. It also means regardless that he is bound to keep the secrets and I respect that. |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 17:56
Masons & the Media - No FM2R
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>>I think I will shutdown now on any more info that I know I wouldn't worry too much. Your 'knowledge' is ridiculous. You'd know more and more accurately if you'd used Google. I think you need to reassess your 'friends'. And if that 'knowledge' is what you are basing your beliefs on, then you'd just 7/10s of nowhere. Truly, you clearly have no idea of what is involved. You seem to have listened to a pack of nonsense from people who have needed therapy after joining a Masonic Lodge, from people who have their own Anglican priest, and from people reciting curses. And on that foundation you feel able to state what should or should not be done by this club you know nothing about, are not part of, and believe nonsense about. p..s. you have no idea of how religious or not I am nor how religious any other Masons are or are not. Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 9 Feb 18 at 17:57
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 16:44
Masons & the Media - sooty123
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| I take it you were/are a FM? |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 16:44
Masons & the Media - No FM2R
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| Yes. |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 16:49
Masons & the Media - smokie
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| I'm not, and I "get" all of what he said. |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 16:57
Masons & the Media - sooty123
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> We did but then once it got really messy and complicated decided to drop it >> and leave the battle to someone else with more resources to burn. Thanks for taking the time to answer. It could well be simply a case of gross incompetence as opposed to some grand >> conspiracy, but then, without going into the details, which shall remain 'secret' (sorry chopper), for I'm not asking after details when I ask this but why would you feel the need to keep it secret? > I repeat my assertion that membership and rank should be made public. If there is >> nothing really to hide, then this should not be a problem. >> What about other groups, such as rotary? |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 17:16
Masons & the Media - car4play
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>> What about other groups, such as rotary? Do they swear to "do all they can to support each other, to look after each other and to keep each others' lawful secrets" ? I guess the answer is no. So no need. |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 17:57
Masons & the Media - sooty123
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Do they swear to "do all they can to support each other, to look after >> each other and to keep each others' lawful secrets" ? >> >> I guess the answer is no. So no need. >> Does that mean that can't be any corruption because they don't swear an oath? Or because a group does it must have corrupt practices? I guess the answer is no. |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 19:05
Masons & the Media - No FM2R
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Mmmm, well I don't know which particular church you belong to, but let's assume that it is one that has an issue with homosexuality. Or perhaps with divorce. And let's assume that you run a cake shop, or a Registrar's Office in the US. Would you see a conflict? would you see their religion and the beliefs and behaviour they swear to uphold conflicting with the law? Does not the church set itself as above man's law? Do you not swear to abide by the law of God? Should we then not have a list of all people and their religion and to what extent they will abide by what they say in Church? Do you mind if I tell you the way I think your church should be run and what information you should make public? Or will you simply insist that it's "quite different" and that to believe in and swear submission or whatever to what you think God might be makes far more sense than anything Mason's may or may not believe in? |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 20:16
Masons & the Media - zippy
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How can one trust any organisation that keeps its membership secret and meets in secret? How do I know there is a level playing field when I quote for a contract or apply for a job if the other parties are in a "lodge" or similar organisation? How do I know that policeman charging me and lawyer defending me aren't mates at the lodge? People that go to church, synagogue or mosque, well at least most do so overtly. I do smile at myself and think all believers are a little bit mad (variable on the extremeness of their faith) and think why would I lend money to a mad person? But then I'm a little religious too and work tells me that I mustn't discriminate. |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 20:26
Masons & the Media - sooty123
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How do I know there is a level playing field when I quote for a >> contract or apply for a job if the other parties are in a "lodge" or >> similar organisation? How do I know that policeman charging me and lawyer defending me aren't >> mates at the lodge? Thing i don't get is what if they are associates in someway anyway? Let's imagine that the FM don't exist as of tonight or that they never existed at all. Do you think it would make any difference in terms of nepotism? Last edited by: sooty123 on Fri 9 Feb 18 at 20:28
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 20:34
Masons & the Media - CGNorwich
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My problem with secret societies,mysterious rituals involving leather aprons and that like that they are, to my mind anyway, fundamentally silly and rather childish. Couldn’t take anyone seriously if I knew they belonged to something like that. Perhaps that’s why they keep membership a secret. Each to his own though I guess.
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Fri 9 Feb 18 at 20:35
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 20:46
Masons & the Media - sooty123
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Each to his own though I guess. >> Absolutely, if a load of middle aged men want to play dress up and make believe that's their business, but I don't buy into all this conspiracy/corruption stuff. Certainly no more than any other group of people. |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 21:35
Masons & the Media - smokie
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They weren't all middle aged in the documentary Sooty. The documentary series was on Sky 1 and was called Inside the Freemasons. www.freemasonrytoday.com/ugle-sgc/ugle/inside-the-freemasons-air-date-released-for-sky-1-documentary. Episode 5 still seems to be available to download, maybe only for Sky subscribers. |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 21:45
Masons & the Media - sooty123
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>> They weren't all middle aged in the documentary Sooty. I didn't say they all were but I bet they are heavily represented. |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 21:13
Masons & the Media - No FM2R
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I understand why you wouldn't be interested in joing what you consider to be a childish society, but why would its existence give you a problem? And as for silly costumes, I dress up to go to Comic-Con with my daughter mist years. Doing it again this year. Does that mean if we met professionally that you would not be able to take me seriously? |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 21:44
Masons & the Media - CGNorwich
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I didn’t say it’s existence gives me a problem. Just that I find the whole idea silly. It’s the concept of grown men taking the dressing up and rituals seriously that I find amusing. Comic-Con is not taken as deadly serious as Freemasonry is it? Would I be able to take you seriously in a professional role? Well I if I was looking for someone to act for me professionally and I knew they were a Freemason I think that would certainly weigh against them in my eyes. Wouldn’t trust their judgement I suppose. Last edited by: CGNorwich on Fri 9 Feb 18 at 21:46
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 21:52
Masons & the Media - No FM2R
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>> Comic-Con is not taken as deadly serious as Freemasonry is it? That would entirely depend on which group you asked, though I wouldn't describe Freemasonry as deadly serious either. >>Wouldn't trust their judgement I suppose. Because you don't trust people who do things you regard as silly? I can think of better indicators. A closed mind is one. p.s. Oh, and in case you missed the comment earlier, I am a Freemason. Proud of it, and love it. Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 9 Feb 18 at 21:54
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 22:33
Masons & the Media - CGNorwich
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No, as I said I don’t entirely trust the judgment of those who take seriously something that I find rather ludicrous. Just a factor and not necessarily a major one I but still I think valid. Much like being a creationist or vegan affects my view of people. Pleased you enjoy it though. |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 22:24
Masons & the Media - Bromptonaut
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>> ... until you are sitting in a courtroom and you realise that your solicitor who >> is meant to be working for you is a mason, and the opposition law firm >> is also run by masons and for all you know the judge is probably in >> on it too. If one side and the judge were Masons I'd be seriously bothered. Not sure I get the scenario where plaintiff, defendant and judge are all Masons but it's the plaintiff (or defendant) who get's stitched up. Who gains? |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 22:35
Masons & the Media - Bromptonaut
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As a former employee of the Court Service I've a distant recollection of, when working in an Outer London County Court an audibly explosive incident in the office of the Registrar (what we now call as District Judge). Somebody had turned up wearing a particular tie implying Membership of a Lodge or some other Society. He was more or less ejected from premises and adjourned to appear before another judge with costs of day against him. |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 22:39
Masons & the Media - No FM2R
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>>If one side and the judge were Masons I'd be seriously bothered. If they were friends, then perhaps. Though for the vast majority their integrity would triumph. If they were Masons and friends, then the friendship risk would remain, but the Masons would have promised to behave with integrity. So actually, the friends have only their integrity to keep them in the straight and narrow whereas the Masons have their integrity and their solemn word. Now one can argue as to how much additional 'safety' Freemasonry offers, but it is certainly no negative. Though, and this is where I disagree with the GL in this campaign, saying so has no value. People believe it or they do not. Belief is a very strong thing, be it in God or Conspiracy. And one cannot change a conspiracy thinker's mind on *any* subject simply by presenting arguments. In Masonry I have met people I admire, people I like, people I don't like, people I seek out and people I avoid. People I learn from and people I'd try to teach if they weren't such idiots. I have never met someone in all my time and all my varied involvement that I would describe as corrupt, dishonest or criminal. I am absolutely quite sure that they exist. But there can't be many of them or I would have met some. The 'rules', promises, oaths or whatever you would like to all them in Masonry ALL revolve around integrity, honesty and decency. Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 9 Feb 18 at 22:40
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 22:42
Masons & the Media - No FM2R
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Though I'll say one thing more. Most Lodges have a bar or a nearby pub. I have rarely had so much simple and hilarious fun as drinking with a bunch of Masons after a meeting. Mostly just a thoroughly decent group of quite ordinary people. |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 22:45
Masons & the Media - Bromptonaut
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>> In Masonry I have met people I admire, people I like, people I don't like, >> people I seek out and people I avoid. People I learn from and people I'd >> try to teach if they weren't such idiots. Pretty much like any other professional association then..... |
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 22:45
Masons & the Media - No FM2R
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Pretty much Bromp, pretty much. Teh difference, which I enjoy, is that it is not a single profession, trade or occupation. Not a single social position, level or geography. The variety is one of the things I very much value. Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 9 Feb 18 at 22:47
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New Fri 9 Feb 18 23:46
Masons & the Media - helicopter
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My experience is pretty much the same as NoFM2R. My Masonic friends are very convivial bunch from all walks of life . In lodges of which I am a member we have everyone from bricklayers to venture capitalists, electricians to property developers, accountants , firemen, doctors and yes , police and lawyers at all ranks and levels , ethnicity and creeds You never know who you are going to be sitting next to at a meeting and it makes for some very fun evenings. |
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New Sat 10 Feb 18 01:15
Masons & the Media - Lygonos
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I am not a Freemason. I have patients who are Freemasons and some in the Order of St John. A number of whom, in a consultation, will sit with their hands positioned in a way to 'present' their signet ring in a manner I find so obvious as to be amusing, and a tad distasteful. Remember: my job relies on me noticing cues of all types - my presumption is that at least some of the time this is done to show their affiliation, I guess in some way to either show brotherhood or to curry some type of special relationship if I was also a mason/brother. I will, no doubt, have many patients who are in similar orders who don't feel the need to stick their allegiance in my face. I enjoyed listening to the grand wizard (a fellow doctor no less) squirm on Radio 4 when asked what proportion of masons are from a non-white background, and when advising he didn't have those figures, then fail to have a reason why he didn't have those figures. If I ran an organisation of 200,000 members I would want a rough breakdown of backgrounds to ensure there was no discrimination, either directly or indirectly. If I then found my organisation had a skewed membership I'd want to know why, and ensure it was not a discriminatory society. "We're an inclusive organisation, no matter race/religion/creed" ....well perhaps, but it's an invitation-only club of (mostly) white men with a significant proportion of members who feel membership should bring privileges outside the lodge network. |
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New Sat 10 Feb 18 10:11
Masons & the Media - helicopter
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Another one proving the point made by Grand Lodge regarding preconceived views. Lygonos if you had read the link to UGLE you would realise that it is not invitation only and you could apply online if you wanted to . As regards colour and creed I am aware that many Masons are perceived as white and middle aged but I can assure you that in the area where I practice my Masonry in South London we have many members of Indian and Carribean origin .I have no idea of the breakdown of numbers but it is certainly no bar to joining . I really do not care whether your patients show you they are Masons or not and neither should you. I wear a masonic ring and do not care who knows my affiliation.Others do not. It should not make a difference. Last edited by: helicopter on Sat 10 Feb 18 at 10:12
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New Sat 10 Feb 18 11:18
Masons & the Media - Dog
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www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MENS-Freemasons-Masonic-Ring-G-Templar-Stainless-Steel-Ring-Polished-Free-P-P/172149420392?hash=item2814e7b168:m:mA91lxtRZ5Ew9brm4GZtCQw :o} |
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New Sat 10 Feb 18 11:26
Masons & the Media - helicopter
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Mine is gold Dog and it swivels. And my masonic ring😄 |
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New Sat 10 Feb 18 11:39
Masons & the Media - Dog
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| Another C4P poster has a gold dog IIRC retpocileh ;) |
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New Sat 10 Feb 18 10:12
Masons & the Media - Rudedog
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| The guy on LBC yesterday was the top-dog in a London lodge trying to be open about the group, found out that you have be a 'believer' so absolutely no atheists (that's me out) and he flatly refused on several occasions even when pushed to say a certain word, just missed what it was and what it meant... any ideas?? |
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New Sat 10 Feb 18 10:17
Masons & the Media - Haywain
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"you have be a 'believer' so absolutely no atheists (that's me out)" Any god in particular? I'm an atheist too, so I can forget it. |
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New Sat 10 Feb 18 11:02
Masons & the Media - Rudedog
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| Didn't seem so, just the concept of a all controlling higher power. |
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New Sat 10 Feb 18 11:09
Masons & the Media - Duncan
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There are certain words and signs that the masons keep as secret. Therefore the 'top dog' was neither going to confirm or deny any word. The belief in a 'Supreme Being' is an absolute requirement. |
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New Sat 10 Feb 18 11:26
Masons & the Media - Dog
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| I think it was Tubal-Cain. |
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New Sat 10 Feb 18 11:43
Masons & the Media - CGNorwich
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| Do they really call themselves grand wizards? It’s seems all too silly for words. |
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New Sat 10 Feb 18 11:58
Masons & the Media - Lygonos
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>>Do they really call themselves grand wizards? Sorry, that was me being cheeky. The KKK bosses are (grand)wizards - I'm not suggesting the Freemasons are in any way whatsoever associated with or share the ethos of white supremacists! Masons don't need to believe in a god(s), simply that there is a higher power than humanity in the Universe. I believe the big "G" on the ceiling of the temple refers to "Grand Architect" although I am happy to be corrected if this is wrong. |
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New Sat 10 Feb 18 12:34
Masons & the Media - bathtub tom
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Many years ago we had an 'office' computer used by many people. It forced you to change the access password at intervals. I was using it one day when I was prompted to enter a new password, so I went 'fishing' and used jahbulon. Caught a couple. |
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New Sat 10 Feb 18 13:15
Masons & the Media - Zero
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>> >>Do they really call themselves grand wizards? >> >> Sorry, that was me being cheeky. >> >> The KKK bosses are (grand)wizards - I'm not suggesting the Freemasons are in any way >> whatsoever associated with or share the ethos of white supremacists! >> Grand Master? |
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New Sat 10 Feb 18 13:30
Masons & the Media - BiggerBadderDave
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This dude? Fantastic, I had this in 12 inches. Loved it. Although I remember it always skipped. I never took his advice though. www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ChjLMbXVrU |
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New Sat 10 Feb 18 15:13
Masons & the Media - Pat
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BBD, I normally ignore your posts, you know why but I love that blast from the past! I remember and can still sing along to every word and remember my Son saying (as young teenager, Mother, you do know what that song is about, don't you':) What is it with kids who think parents have never lived?:) Thanks BBD! Pat |
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New Sat 10 Feb 18 14:10
Masons & the Media - No FM2R
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>> A number of whom, in a consultation, will sit with their hands positioned in a >> way to 'present' their signet ring in a manner I find so obvious as to >> be amusing, and a tad distasteful. I'd go with ridiculous and embarrassing. Obviously idiots. >>I guess in some way to either show brotherhood or to curry some type of special >> relationship if I was also a mason/brother. Usually and probably not. Usually just showing off. You get all sorts. >> when asked what proportion of masons are from a non-white background, Given that I have never been asked, I'd hazard a guess that they don't know. >> "We're an inclusive organisation, no matter race/religion/creed" It really is. >> ....well perhaps, but it's an invitation-only club of (mostly) white men It's not invitation only. It is mostly white men I should think, though it varies by area, but 'mostly' is a long way from completely. I am guessing only by memory, but I'd think 10% or so of the people in my first lodge were not WASPs. However, in the lodge I currently visit I'd say it was around 99.5% non WASP. And it is a Scottish Lodge. Though again the question is not asked, I'm just guessing from what I see. >>with a significant proportion of members who feel membership should bring privileges >>outside the lodge network. No. Without doubt some join thinking or seeking that but unless they find some other value to Masonry then they leave again once they discover that those "privileges outside the lodge network" are not there to be had. Even in South America, where you'd think it would happen if it was going to happen anywhere. |
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New Sat 10 Feb 18 14:11
Masons & the Media - No FM2R
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Now though, this has all moved to the realms of conspiracy theory and, like religion, becomes something where facts, evidence and argument have little or no effect. So I'll drop out at this point. Should anybody seriously want to know more, my email address is in my profile. |
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New Sat 10 Feb 18 18:26
Masons & the Media - No FM2R
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I was wrong, there is one mroe thing I wish to say... We have spoken about why people join Freemasonry, and there are many reasons not all of them honourable, but we have not discussed why people stay a Freemason, because it is not without its burden. It is a financial burden, though we try to minimise that for Masons who cannot afford the costs. The actual 'subs' are low, but there are constantly charitable collections which mount up. It is a time and effort burden. Not only to attend meetings, but the ritual is difficult. To learn it and be able to deliver it is quite some work. It has standards. Doing something 'naughty' is obviously not good in any situation. Even if it was within the rule of law but questionable. But actually should it come to the ears of fellow masons it can become quite problematic as one has to explain oneself. So there needs to be a reason to stay, and whether or not you believe me, it is not advantage outside the lodge. I'm no hero, and there are absolutely clubs I belong to solely because they are an 'in', or because they do bring advantage, and they are a darn sight lesser known than Freemasonry. Freemasonry is not one of them though, it really doesn't offer any such advantage. It is completely outside my professional and personal lives. It is full of people with the same standards of behaviour ad integrity as me, even if we don't particularly like each other. It is a great social event. No pressure. No complication. Good food. Alcohol. It really is pleasant and fun. There are no prejudices. Well, there's kind of a mild one between those who are long serving and this that they regard ass young whipper snappers, but its more patronising than anything. There are no conflicts. Where disagreements are involved then you are encouraged (polite for told) to take it outside the lodge and decide if you cannot be together then which one of you will leave. Nobody brings work, home, politics or religion conflicts with them. It is very supportive. Just as mates, it is supportive. And despite the fact that we're having fun, drinking, eating, hanging out with people we get along with, shutting out the idiots, we don't feel guilty about it because we give a s***load to charity. I've known people leave because it was not for them. I've known people leave because they couldn't find the mythical "advantage", some because its too much work, some because they simply don't enjoy it. Some because of time pressures outside Masonry, some because of illness or other capability issues. I have never, not ever, known anybody leave because they were offended by it. I genuinely like it. Don't join because you're seeking advantage, there is little or none. |
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New Sat 10 Feb 18 20:55
Masons & the Media - R.P.
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That was my impression exactly as well Mark. It was expensive and the rituals were complex and involved a lot of learning ( i.e. time, which I didn't have in those days) - the lodge I went to seemed to be pretty well loaded with artisan types, I was introduced by a carpenter and a number seemed to be in associated trades - including an undertaker. I'm still friends with a few of them, sadly both the joiner and the undertaker died a couple of years ago. They weren't old and were hard working men. I made progress, and no doubt would have ended up in a role that would have required more commitment which I wasn't able to give. I quit for a number of reasons, not least I couldn't face it after my first wife died. It is a bit like the Hotel California you can check out but you can never leave though. They did pester me for a few years afterwards. I saw no advantage taking tough. I got told off for taking my jacket off in a post lodge dinner (food was really crap another good reason to leave). I don't regret joining - to be honest like anything else in life if you haven't experienced something first hand it's not something you can criticise. Anyone want a nice second-hand first degree apron ? |
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New Sat 10 Feb 18 21:22
Masons & the Media - sooty123
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I got told off for taking my jacket off> in a post lodge dinner (food was really crap another good reason to leave). I don't regret joining - to be honest like anything else in life if you haven't experienced something first hand it's not something you can criticise. That reminds me of a chap (not in the FM) that wanted to go to the toilet outside of 'the set times' in a formal meal that has set very set rules. He was admonished by a head honcho, that was the first and last time he bothered going despite the negative career implication. |
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New Sat 10 Feb 18 21:46
Masons & the Media - No FM2R
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>Anyone want a nice second-hand first degree apron Keep.it. You never know. If you're sure though, give it to your local lodge they usually like to keep a couple of spares for newcomers to borrow. |
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New Tue 20 Feb 18 15:25
Masons & the Media - Mapmaker
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>>as around 99.5% non WASP. And it is a Scottish Lodge. Really? They tend to be ‘P’ as the pope rather prohibits WASCs. |
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New Tue 20 Feb 18 16:58
Masons & the Media - sooty123
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> Really? They tend to be ‘P’ as the pope rather prohibits WASCs. >> >> The pope prohibits Catholics from joining the FMs? |
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New Tue 20 Feb 18 17:01
Masons & the Media - CGNorwich
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Yes. catholicherald.co.uk/issues/august-11th-2017/the-real-reason-catholics-cant-be-freemasons/ |
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New Tue 20 Feb 18 17:06
Masons & the Media - No FM2R
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He also prohibits sex outside marriage, contraception, abortion, rape, murder, theft, adultery, practising homosexuality, child abuse, etc etc etc You have to say, it ain't going all that well for him. |
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New Tue 20 Feb 18 18:37
Masons & the Media - sooty123
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| Thanks, I didn't know it was something that was banned for Catholics. But like NoFM2R I don't think that really stops them from joining. |
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New Tue 20 Feb 18 19:39
Masons & the Media - bathtub tom
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>> Thanks, I didn't know it was something that was banned for Catholics. But like NoFM2R >> I don't think that really stops them from joining. My BIL was a catholic in the Masons. Hypocrisy is another reason for me not wanting to be one. |
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New Tue 20 Feb 18 20:15
Masons & the Media - Bobby
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Certainly where I come from in Scotland the Freemasons would definitely be deemed a non catholic (and perhaps anti-catholic) group. The one closest to me shares premises with the Orange Order. |
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New Tue 20 Feb 18 20:19
Masons & the Media - sooty123
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>> Certainly where I come from in Scotland the Freemasons would definitely be deemed a non >> catholic (and perhaps anti-catholic) group. I would say that's just in Scotland though? |
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New Sat 10 Feb 18 22:35
Masons & the Media - Haywain
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I must have been in my mid-20s when my late uncle asked me if I was interested in joining the Masons. I was, by then, working for a large multi-national company and, although I was growing up, I don't think my uncle realised that I still harboured some looni-left views. He didn't press me, and the subject was never mentioned again. Six years ago, my uncle passed away and the funeral at the crematorium was, more or less, run by the Masons. During the service, I learned just how senior a rank he had reached and how many lodges he had visited etc. The main thing that I recall was a feeling of the sense of duty that the Masons had for one another. I guess the closest I got to Freemasonry was when our band played at some of the local Masonic functions; one lodge in particular, invited us back time after time for a number of years. Of course, as a hired servant, my lips are sealed - particularly as they were highly complimentary about my rendition of the solo in 'Alright Now'. |
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New Sun 11 Feb 18 08:31
Masons & the Media - Dog
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>>they were highly complimentary about my rendition of the solo in 'Alright Now'. This is a better version ... IMO: www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpLv4M4paSI |
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New Sun 11 Feb 18 09:05
Masons & the Media - Haywain
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"This is a better version" True - but mine was done without the benefit of performance-enhancing drugs ;-) |
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New Sun 11 Feb 18 09:55
Masons & the Media - Dog
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>>True - but mine was done without the benefit of performance-enhancing drugs ;-) Performance-enhancing?? .. looks like they were 'out of their heads' to me :) |
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New Sun 11 Feb 18 09:57
Masons & the Media - Zero
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IOW 1970 Joni Mitchell, Joan Baez, Sly Stone, Kris Kristofferson, Redbone, Supertramp, Miles Davis, Ten Years After, ELP, The Doors, The Who, Ralph McTell, Free, Donovan, Moody Blues, Pentangle, Jethro Tull, Joan Baez, Richie Havens, Leonard Cohen, Richie Havens, Hawkwind, and of course everyone must have seen and heard the Jimi Hendrix clips. Good Lord, what a lineup. |
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New Sun 11 Feb 18 11:24
Masons & the Media - Dog
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Did you see this guvnor: metro.co.uk/2018/02/10/five-injured-in-tenerife-boat-explosion-7303283/ |
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New Tue 20 Feb 18 11:22
Masons & the Media - Dutchie
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I don't like secret or not so secret organisations. I couldn't join something with certain rituals and behaviours which I always find suspicious. I've met some strange people in my life with weird concepts of a soceity. |
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New Tue 20 Feb 18 21:21
Masons & the Media - R.P.
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| One thing that stands in my mind (really interesting to me, and quite moving) was a framed letter from former members who had been interned by the Germans in Berlin at the outbreak of WW1 - asking for food parcels etc to be sent. |
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New Wed 21 Feb 18 09:40
Masons & the Media - Roger.
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I have always thought that the Masons were a daft (older) boys club. |
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