So it seems MB are running scared and are therefore going to fix 3m diesel cars. I assume this is to prevent a VW style scandal.
www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/100175/mercedes-announces-195m-voluntary-fix-for-3m-diesel-engines
It seems it's software related - so are they guilty of what the VW group did? Oops.
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Poor Humph
Be prepared for some limp mode :)
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>> Poor Humph
I'm sure he can use some of his old door mirrors to reflect on things.
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He could claim that a lack of door mirrors reduces drag improving emmisions, negating the requirement of a software update.
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I think this could end up being a big issue, although it's voluntary how many of the worldwide 3m cars will be updated is anyones guess..
Interesting to see that on the 'other' forum this MB diesel scandal hasn"t even been mentioned and yet the have been very fastidious about bringing VW to task and a select few trashing the brand at every opportunity… lets see if they get their teeth into MB.
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>> Interesting to see that on the 'other' forum this MB diesel scandal hasn"t even been
>> mentioned and yet the have been very fastidious about bringing VW to task and a
>> select few trashing the brand at every opportunity… lets see if they get their teeth
>> into MB.
>>
I won't tell them if you won't...
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A German search warrant and American pressure seems to have prompted some action, should we run a book on who will be next?
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>> should we run a book on who will be next?
>>
It's likely that others were doing something similar though VAG's error was to continue to deny after being found out, that's where the real trust was lost. At least MB have put some steps in hand before even being asked to.
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It will be more interesting if we find out what exactly they are fixing.
I suspect that, rather than 'defeat' software, it might be about taking liberties with the rules i.e. stretching rather than breaking them. There are allowances for exceeding the emissions limits when it is necessary to protect the engine, which could be very convenient if that happens to benefit performance, economy, or long term reliability.
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should we run a book on who will be next?
Fiat is a likely..
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I reckon they are all at it (or something similar)
The silence from VW's competitors since this originally broke is quite telling. How is it that a major market player ends up in deep trouble, and their reputation takes a huge hit, yet none of the competition try to capitalise on it?
The lack of stones being thrown smacks of everyone else sitting glass houses to me....
Last edited by: DP on Thu 20 Jul 17 at 23:44
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Larger engined Audi diesels now being recalled for similar reasons.
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www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/21/now-audi-recalls-thousands-cars-harmful-emission-levels/
The move is part of an attempt by Audi to avoid its cars being caught up in proposed bans of diesel cars from German cities,........
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Same reason cited by Mercedes....
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>> The move is part of an attempt by Audi to avoid its cars being caught
>> up in proposed bans of diesel cars from German cities,........
>>
Also, and oddly it doesn't seem to have been widely reported, Audi has had to stop selling some petrol models for an estimated couple of months as they did some mods which took them out of compliance.
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Mitsubishi.
My 60-plate Shogun had 197bhp and emissions of 224g/km.
Current version with same engine is advertised to have 187bhp and 245g/km.
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The purpose behind this trickery was to sell cars with better performance without compromising their compliance with emission regulations by concealing a device that could detect when the emissions were being checked and temporarily de-tuning the engine for the duration of the test?
Does the "fix" therefore remove this device, so that the engine is set permanently to deliver a poorer performance and therefore properly complies with emissions regulations at all times, not just during testing?
Or have they merely devised an even cleverer device that is harder to detect?
If all this is true, why have car companies not been prosecuted for fraud, tax evasion, false advertising and contravening trading standards?
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>> If all this is true, why have car companies not been prosecuted for fraud, tax
>> evasion, false advertising and contravening trading standards?
>>
They generate too much tax income both directly and indirectly for the assorted governments to disrupt. The government's involved are not going to shoot themselves in both financial feet. As always follow the money.
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Missed the edit -
I would expect that the word has been passed at the highest level to get this sorted as quickly and quietly as possible.
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>> If all this is true, why have car companies not been prosecuted for fraud, tax
>> evasion, false advertising and contravening trading standards?
>>
>>
>>
As ON says money and it's probably in the too difficult pile.
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So another fix, but better than the first.
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>> So another fix, but better than the first.
You mean another cheat, not a fix?
Where there is software that is specifically designed to detect emissions testing, and to turn on controls that would otherwise be off, then I think they will be bang to rights. But there are probably some grey areas to argue about otherwise.
For example the emissions control/limit can be suspended when it is necessary to "protect the engine". If that is 90% of the time it's clearly cheating, but maybe 5% could be cynically stretched to 10% or maybe 20%.
In that sort of scenario, the manufacturer will say something like "We believe we have been compliant and do not admit guilt (or liability), however in light of the regulator's subsequent guidance we will/have made the requested changes."
With legal support, I have had experience of something similar in relation to financial advertising. We had counsel's opinion that what we were doing, which I thought was very clear, was within the regulations but the regulator persistently argued that we should do it differently. We eventually agreed to change our approach while denying that we had broken the law, mainly because the regulator (then the OFT) was grandstanding about it to the press - the OFT never took us to court, presumably because they thought they might lose.
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What Manatee has said is exactly right.
VW / Audis detected testing and switched the engine to test mode. This enabled it to sail through emissions tests, and when switched into "normal" mode allowed them to attain the low CO2 and higher mpg levels that these emissions controls (NOx) compromise on
The others, (Seemingly MB, Fiat, Renault) don't have a defeat device (as far as researchers have been unable to find.) However, the rules do state that these emission controls can be disabled in certain conditions, eg to protect the engine. They will be using this clause very liberally as far as I have read.
The issue is the rules were badly written. There is talk of the regulators wanting a change in the rules to force the carmakers to declare and demonstrate the reasons why they need to protect the engine. This is entirely sensible and needs to happen. One wonders why the rules were so bad in the first place (though hang on, the manufacturers may have influenced the rule makers somehow ;))
So in short, the cheat device VW/Audi used is not the same as the other companies.
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>> The issue is the rules were badly written. There is talk of the regulators wanting
>> a change in the rules to force the carmakers to declare and demonstrate the reasons
>> why they need to protect the engine.
This should be looked at another way. as in "Why would the makers even consider running the engine in a way that was harmful to it" You could really beat the crap out of them for that under all sorts of existing consumer and product legislation, as well as breaking pollution levels.
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I suspect this would be temperature related, so would be ok to run for a period of time but if very high ambient temps (for example) or heavy traffic (Where you need it most!) it might need to be bypassed
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BMW statement, they clear don't see themselves as living in a glass house and are happy to throw stones. The last paragraph is interesting in that they are offering a voluntary and free upgrade to some Euro 5 diesels.
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Munich. Due to current media reports, the BMW Group considers it has become necessary to make its position regarding recent allegations clear.
As a matter of principle: BMW Group vehicles are not manipulated and comply with respective legal requirements. Of course this also applies to diesel vehicles. Confirmation of this is provided by the results of relevant official investigations at the national and international level.
The BMW Group categorically rejects accusations that Euro 6 diesel vehicles sold by the company do not provide adequate exhaust gas treatment due to AdBlue tanks that are too small.
Technology employed by the BMW Group is clearly differentiated from other systems in the market. We compete to provide the best exhaust treatment systems: unlike other manufacturers, BMW Group diesel vehicles employ a combination of various components to treat exhaust emissions. Vehicles which use urea injection with AdBlue (SCR) to treat exhaust emissions also employ a NOx-storage catalytic converter. With this combination of technologies, we fulfil all legal emissions requirements and also achieve a very good real-life emissions performance. This means there is no need to recall or upgrade the software of BMW Group Euro 6 diesel passenger cars.
In addition, the combination of both systems, together with exhaust-gas recirculation, requires a lower level of AdBlue injection and leads to a very low AdBlue consumption in comparison to other manufacturers. This enables an optimized tank size while also achieving very low emissions in real-driving conditions. Furthermore, BMW Group diesel vehicles have a simple refill solution through the tank lid or engine hood, depending on the model. BMW Group customers are informed by the vehicle in good time and repeatedly concerning a low AdBlue fill level. If this is ignored, the vehicle eventually prevents operation.
From a BMW Group perspective, the objective of discussions with other manufacturers concerning AdBlue tanks was the installation of the required tanking infrastructure in Europe.
In addition, the BMW Group confirms its commitment to conduct a voluntary software upgrade of suitable Euro 5 diesel passenger cars at no cost to customers. This upgrade incorporates knowledge gained in the field over the last years to realize further improvements in emissions. We deem this to be a part of a comprehensive and joint plan of measures involving municipalities and the industry, to further improve inner-city air quality without across-the-board driving bans, within the context of the “Diesel Summit†on 2 August 2017.
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40740886
....Porsche cars to remove what he says is illegal emissions-controlling software
Der Spiegel said it was told by a source that the Porsche Cayenne had a "warm up mode" whose true purpose was to comply with emissions requirements.
It said tests showed that once the car was confronted with small bends or a slope it switched to a different mode and emissions were higher.
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Porsche diesel = VAG technology ...
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>> Porsche diesel = VAG technology ...
>>
Yes but it is the first time I am aware of that the Porsche name has hit the headlines.
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Back in early 2016 an online article:
"PORSCHE SAYS IT CAN FIX CAYENNE DIESELS WITH SOFTWARE AND NEW CATALYTIC CONVERTERS"
This was US related BTW. But this news on Porsche is no surprise.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Fri 28 Jul 17 at 01:47
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The whole of the VAG empire will have had the same cheat software.
Expect Skoda and Seat to be named soon enough.. if it hasn't already
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VAG brands include Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, also MAN and Scania commercial vehicles. Brand protection must be a priority.
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Good point Old Navy.
I know in Germany they are having to do the "fix" on commercial vehicles too, but so far all I have seen is the caddy and other VW branded stuff...
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Mercedes Benz Diesel Fix - Bobby
