Probably a silly question and one that might have been covered but links into an issue I’ve encountered at work..
I’ve just renewed my car insurance and changed providers at the same time, when the new documents came I thought I better do the right thing and read through them.
As I had opted to auto-renew in a year’s time they listed the end and start date/times of my cover as follows;
Cover ends 09/05/2017 at 23:59
Cover starts 10/05/2018 at 00:01
So what happens if I have an accident recorded as 00:00?
Interestingly my old insurers have told be my cover ends on 10/05/2017 at 00:01.
I’m guessing that this is just an admin thing
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Being pedantic, I would suggest that you are not insured for 2 seconds.
Being even more pedantic, I would suggest that the the DVLA will notice the lapse of 2 seconds and issue a fine! Though surely they just check days and not seconds and minutes?
Being paranoid, i Would not drive the car and make sure that it is off the road and apply for a SORN!
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>> Being pedantic, I would suggest that you are not insured for 2 seconds.
>>
2 mins surely ...
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Coincidentally I was renewing my Volvo insurance today and wondeqred about the same thing. I'm changing from Volvo Insurance to Send All Grannies Away as the latter are £120 cheaper for a year.
The renewal notice from Volvo Insurance says that it 'expires on 12 May' - doesn't say when, so I played safe and have asked SAGA for the new policy to start from 12 May. A waste of one day's premium (1/365 x 299) to buy peace of mind.
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Its done to avoid confusion as to when 00:00 actually is.
If it only gives a date, then you are best to assume that expiry is 00:01 on that date. In the US it always is.
It is assumed that 23:59 and 00:01 is a handover.
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When I contacted my insurance company to change cars I was told the change would be key to key on the designated day. There is obviously a bit of flexibility as they issued an insurance certificate from 00:01 on the handover day and the new car was on the insurance database. I kept the insurance certificate for the old car with me for the drive to the dealer as that car was off the database. I assume the driving other cars covered the old car as technically it was sold to the dealer.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 27 Apr 17 at 18:44
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>> So what happens if I have an accident recorded as 00:00?
Report that it happened at 00:01. Problem solved.
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>> >> So what happens if I have an accident recorded as 00:00?
>>
>> Report that it happened at 00:01. Problem solved.
>>
I doubt if his time gadgets are accurate to, or sycronised to 0.01 of a second anyway. Pedant on steroids. :-)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 27 Apr 17 at 19:58
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We've changed both our cars in the last fortnight. Both insured with Tesco who allow you an overlap on changeover day so that both new and old cars are covered.
Last edited by: Robin O'Reliant on Thu 27 Apr 17 at 20:23
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>> Its done to avoid confusion as to when 00:00 actually is.
>>
>> If it only gives a date, then you are best to assume that expiry is
>> 00:01 on that date. In the US it always is.
>>
>> It is assumed that 23:59 and 00:01 is a handover.
>>
The Navy uses 23:59 as the end of the day and 00:00 as the start of the day. Seems to work OK.
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>> The Navy uses 23:59 as the end of the day and 00:00 as the start
>> of the day. Seems to work OK.
>>
For an organisation which traditionally used bells rather than clock for times that seems remarkably modern.
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>> >> The Navy uses 23:59 as the end of the day and 00:00 as the
>> start
>> >> of the day. Seems to work OK.
>> >>
>> For an organisation which traditionally used bells rather than clock for times that seems remarkably
>> modern.
>>
We even have steam driven submarines. :-)
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Commercial fire insurance polices all start and expire at 4.00 p.m. Presumably that was when the Insurers once ceased trading for the day
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Thu 27 Apr 17 at 21:08
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>> Commercial fire insurance polices all start and expire at 4.00 p.m. Presumably that was when
>> the Insurers once ceased trading for the day
>>
So that would be mid day on a Friday then.
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Strangely at work the PAS system we use (which is American) doesn't recognise the time-stamp of '00:00', so you effectively can't be born at '00:00' or have anything clinical recorded at that time.
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Cerner's PAS by any chance?
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That's the one! are you a fellow user of Millennium?
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No. But I thought Cerner were the only PAS provider (via the defunct NPfIT) that was American. The other was Lorenzo I think which CSC bought.
That programme was doomed from day 1 of the bidding process IMO.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Fri 28 Apr 17 at 00:47
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I got pulled off of my clinical duties back in 2005 to start our implementation, had my first contact with a government organisation via LPfIT and my weekly visits up to Paddington (Eastbourne Terrace), back then it was all BT contracts (or should that be red-tape) in London.
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>>Strangely
Not strangely. You will find that trains, planes and buses don't leave at 00.00 either. If you are told to turn up at 00.00 on Wednesday it is ambiguous whether that is first thing, or last thing.
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>> >>Strangely
>>
>> Not strangely. You will find that trains, planes and buses don't leave at 00.00 either.
Except of course
www.youtube.com/watch?v=meaVNHch96o
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In the twenty hour clock system the day begins at 00.00 and ends at 24.00. There is no ambiguity.
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>> In the twenty hour clock system the day begins at 00.00 and ends at 24.00.
>> There is no ambiguity.
>>
That being the case, how do you account for the four missing hours? ;)
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>> In the twenty hour clock system the day begins at 00.00 and ends at 24.00.
Firstly there are twenty four hours - but you probably know that.
Secondly there is no 24.00. After 23.59 comes 00.00. Otherwise the day has one minute too many... 24.00 is followed by 00.01, so it obviously was 00.00.
And this is obvious if you think about it. After 24.00 would come 24.01 which is obviously 00.01.
So after 24.00.00 comes 24.00.01 which again is obviously 00.00.01.
And after 24.00.00 and 0 thousandth comes 24.00.00 and 1 thousandth. Which again is obviously 00.00.00 and 1 thousandth.
So 24.00 can't exist as it's over before it happened.
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I'm still convinced the millennial celebrations were a year early. Shirley they should have been at the end of 2000, not the end of 1999?
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All depends on what you're celebrating i suppose.
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"Secondly there is no 24.00. After 23.59 comes 00.00. Otherwise the day has one minute too many... 24.00 is followed by 00.01, so it obviously was 00.00"
You are completely wrong I'm afraid. The 24 hour clock system is internationally recognised and standardised under ISO 8601.
Days start with 00.00 and end with 24.00
24.00 on one day is the same time as 00.00 on the following day
Check it out with Google if you don't believe me.
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>> Days start with 00.00 and end with 24.00
>>
>> 24.00 on one day is the same time as 00.00 on the following day
>>
Which is impossible if you are keeping accurate records of events.
I will stick to the navy's way of doing things. Having used it for decades I know it works without confusion.
The day ends on 23:59:59 and starts on 00:00:00.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Tue 2 May 17 at 20:19
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It may well have an ISO number but that's not to say it's widespread or makes sense. As ON says the 23.59-->00.00 makes more sense and is in common use. I've used the 24 hr system for time at work for years i don't think i can remember 24.00 being used.
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>>You are completely wrong I'm afraid.
I am, aren't I.
However, that we are even having this discussion explains why in the real world things start at 00.01 and end at 23.59 in order to avoid the apparent ambiguity - which arises from 12 am and 12 pm (which must be avoided and 'noon' or 'midnight' used instead). I fear ISO 8601 has served only to muddy the waters, by introducing a new convention in an attempt to clarify an ambiguity.
Nothing can ever happen at 24.00 as 24.00 doesn't exist as a period of time. Under your ISO it marks the point of the end of the day, but as I described it doesn't hang around long enough for anything to happen during the period.
You can indeed schedule a flight to leave at 24.00 in order to indicate that it is leaving at the end of the day. But if you then ask when it left, it cannot ever have left at 24.00, it must have done so at 23.59 or 00.00 the following day.
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You've lost me there.
24.00 is idendical as a time to 00.00 the folowing day It exists in exactly the same way. The two are interchangeable - just different ways of stating the same thing.
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You get on with your theoretical world while the rest of us record the passage of time in the real world.
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But the services 24.00 hour clock you descrive is exactly the same as the system I describe. The services just choose never to use the 24.00 for the current day to descrive midnight but use the 00.00 of the following day instead.
It makes no difference as long as you attach a date to the day.
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Wed 3 May 17 at 10:59
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Can you provide a link to a digital clock that displays 24:00 ? I can't find one and have never seen one.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 3 May 17 at 13:05
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Timers showing 24 minutes ? :-)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 3 May 17 at 13:32
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>> Timers showing 24 minutes ? :-)
This any better, ON?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=fasBzE6099k
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>> 24.00 is idendical as a time to 00.00 the folowing day It exists in exactly
>> the same way. The two are interchangeable - just different ways of stating the same
>> thing.
No. Wikipedia agrees with me. "The notation 24:00 mainly serves to refer to the exact end of a day in a time interval."
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o. Wikipedia agrees with me. "The notation 24:00 mainly serves to refer to the exact
>> end of a day in a time interval."
>>
>>
NPL
www.npl.co.uk/reference/faqs/is-midnight-12-am-or-12-pm-faq-time
"To avoid confusion in, for example, an insurance certificate, it is always better to use the 24-hour clock, when 12:00 is 12 noon and, for example, 24:00 Sunday or 00:00 Monday both mean 12 midnight Sunday/Monday. It is common in transport timetables to use 23:59 Sunday or 00:01 Monday (in this example), or 11:59 p.m. or 12:01 a.m., to further reduce confusion."
Perhaps Zero can tell us what is zero
www.mathsisfun.com/definitions/zero.html
Last edited by: BrianByPass on Wed 3 May 17 at 13:40
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>> 24.00 is idendical as a time to 00.00 the folowing day It exists in exactly
>> the same way. The two are interchangeable - just different ways of stating the same
>> thing.
Ok, so just to be obtuse, two children are born at exactly the same moment, the first one has their time of birth recorded as 24.00hrs on the 31st of December and the second one has their's recorded as 00.00 on the 1st of January.
Do they have different days, months and years of birth?
Incidentally, I don't know either, and in truth I'm not that bothered, but y'know, while we're on this.
;-)
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Thought I would have my tuppence worth while we are on this most pedantic of subjects.
Basically I am with ON. For all practical purposes 24:00 is an almost mythical time, one millionth of a second before is 23:59:59.999999 and one millionth of a second after is 0:00:00.000001
24:00 is a non time, it does not really exist whatever anybody's fancy digital oven clock says. :-)
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>> Thought I would have my tuppence worth while we are on this most pedantic of
>> subjects.
>>
>> Basically I am with ON. For all practical purposes 24:00 is an almost mythical time,
>> one millionth of a second before is 23:59:59.999999 and one millionth of a second after
>> is 0:00:00.000001
>> 24:00 is a non time, it does not really exist whatever anybody's fancy digital oven
>> clock says. :-)
0:00:00. is a non time. its 00:00:00. for the most pedantic of course
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 3 May 17 at 15:06
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>> 0:00:00. is a non time. its 00:00:00. for the most pedantic of course
I think there need to be a whole lot more noughts before you can say it's a non time. A whole lot.
Or maybe I'm just being a bit of a Planck.
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24:00 is just as much, no more or less, a none-time as 00:00 or 23:59 or 00:01 or any other - they exist for an infinitesimal time, an instant.
What is different is how long each is displayed - the clock will not display 24:00 because 00:00 arrives at the same instant, and if the resolution of the clock is one minute then it will normally display time to the last whole minute reached, and at 00:00:01 or even 00:00:00000000000000001 that would be 00:00, until 00:01.
If the resolution of the clock is one second then 00:00:00 will only be shown for one second. And so on.
I can't find and have never come across the legal position on whether "midnight on the 24th" means at the change from 23rd to 24th, or 24th to 25th.
I rather think that a court on the basis of how a reasonable person might interpret it would say that if "payment must be made before midnight on the 24th" then it must be made on or before the 24th, not by the end of the 23rd.
Similarly if I say I will meet you at midnight on the 24th, you will probably think I mean at the end of the day.
However - if instead of midnight we say 24:00 or 00:00 on the 24th, then a reasonable person (me) would say that 24:00 must be the end of day (i.e. 24th/25th) and that 00:00 must be beginning of day (i.e. 23rd/24th). But that implies that 00:00 comes before 24:00. But 24:00 and 00:00 are the same time.
My head hurts. My advice would be not to put "midnight on the 24th" in a contract.
For a baby born at midnight, I would say the birthday should be that day that is starting, not the one that is ending, since the baby clearly had not been born/was not extant at any time during the day just ending.
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>> Do they have different days, months and years of birth?
>>
>> Incidentally, I don't know either, and in truth I'm not that bothered, but y'know, while
>> we're on this.
Time of birth is never recorded as 00:00:00 OR 24:00:00 for that very reason.
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Aye but, some poor beggars must be born at that very moment and then end up spending their whole lives living a lie. It's not right is it? Fundablinkingmental.
;-)
Last edited by: Runfer D'Hills on Wed 3 May 17 at 15:21
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>> Aye but, some poor beggars must be born at that vey moment and then end
>> up spending their whole lives living a lie. It's not right is it? Fundablinkingmental.
>>
>> ;-)
Not really, the more entrepreneurial among us would use it as an excuse for a two day birthday,
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Time of birth is not recorded in any manner. The day of birth is whatever the party registering the birth declares it to be.
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Wed 3 May 17 at 15:19
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Well, in that case ( my ever so cunning example I mean ) what day should they put?
;-)
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Dodgy that though. Especially if it was twins. Don't feel like this has been properly addressed myself.
:-)
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>> Time of birth is not recorded in any manner. The day of birth is whatever
>> the party registering the birth declares it to be.
>>
Time of birth is recorded, or at least it was for my 3 in the 80s. It wasn't on the birth certificate but it was certainly recorded by the nurse
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It might be by the nurse for medical records but it is not required for registering a birth and does not appear on a birth certificate which is what effectivley determines legally whe you were born.
Your date of birth is whatever the person registering it declares it to be.
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>>Your date of birth is whatever the person registering it declares it to be.
Many* children born at the end of August are registered with a 1 September birthday as it means one year less of expensive childcare.
___________________________________
* Do not ask me "How many?"
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>> Many* children born at the end of August are registered with a 1 September birthday
>> as it means one year less of expensive childcare.
I don't understand. Because they go to school a year later?
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Time of birth is officially recorded, in addition to date, in cases of multiple births.
>> Time of birth is not recorded in any manner. The day of birth is whatever
>> the party registering the birth declares it to be.
>>
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One of my daughters got her first car, so first insurance, on the 1st of a month. Her's expired at 00.01 on the 1st so it was always handy that her cars could be retaxed early without having to renew the insurance first.
Doesn't matter now, as it's not checked any more. You also don't have to wait for disc to come in the post!
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Am I covered? - zippy
