It has long been said that one of the reasons behind the creation of the EU was to integrate economies to such an extent that war between partner states would be impossible.
Now that we are leaving Theresa May is threatening to go to war over Gibraltar.
tinyurl.com/l564wbw (Telegraph)
So, it was true then!
Discuss.....
;-D
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It was mostly NATO that stopped wars in the west for so long.
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There was a bookkeeper at a customer years ago, an old fart who had served in the forces. He was 60 in 1992 so unlikely to have served in WW2 but could have been in Korea.
I had a vicious argument with him over the accuracy of his books as he was putting his employer in jeopardy.
He retorted claiming that I was a young whippersnapper who knew nothing and what we needed was another war to sort the country and youth of today out.
I did tell him in no uncertain terms that he was a sick individual for wishing the death of millions.
He was also marked as an offensive customer and my employer refused to deal with him any further.
Last edited by: Wibble on Sun 2 Apr 17 at 14:34
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>> He retorted claiming that I was a young whippersnapper who knew nothing and what we
>> needed was another war to sort the country and youth of today out.
A fairly commonly held view in early part of my CS career. WW2 generation were working until well into eighties.
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> A fairly commonly held view in early part of my CS career. WW2 generation were
>> working until well into eighties.
>>
I think it's a generational thing, youth of today etc. No doubt been said by old people since the year dot.
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>> Now that we are leaving Theresa May is threatening to go to war over Gibraltar.
>>
>> tinyurl.com/l564wbw (Telegraph)
>>
>> So, it was true then!
>>
>> Discuss.....
>>
........after you, Michael!
(as mad as the proverbial box of frogs).
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>>The EU Stopped Wars<<
Tell that to the citizens of Ukraine.
And don't forget, the 'EU' is a relatively recent construct, with aims that didn't exist in early European treaties.
Just saying...
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>> And don't forget, the 'EU' is a relatively recent construct, with aims that didn't exist
>> in early European treaties.
The EU was just a little blip in the long history of Europe.
"Wars", by which we mean conflicts between UK/Germany/France/Italy not everybody else, ceased because of:
NATO
Common enemy in the USSR, who despite the bluster and rhetoric didn't actually want one
Universal prosperity
Globalisation in which the countries of Europe all played a leading role
Broad stabilisation of world economies through IMF etc
No more colonies to fight over
We all discovered that wars were expensive and harmed everyone, especially the winners.
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The Germans, amongst others, couldn't beat us militarily so turned to economic means to do so, just as the Americans did with Russia with the Space Race, Star Wars (Strategic Defence Initiative) etc.
Thankfully we've seen the light, which is why our so called EU friends (especially unelected commissioners) are now turning nasty on us, particularly as it may well see some other countries attempting a Brexit campaign at some time in the near future.
I recall we were kidded by politicians that the Common Market was a giant version of the local Co-op, with rewards in the form of dividends if we joined.....
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For the Common Market referendum in 1975 the British people voted to remain in the Common Market.
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That was then and the Common Market. This is now and the European Union. Different organisation, different aims but few ordinary people have been asked if they approve...
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>> The Germans, amongst others, couldn't beat us militarily so turned to economic means to do
>> so,
You stupid old fool.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 2 Apr 17 at 17:59
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>> The Germans, amongst others, couldn't beat us militarily so turned to economic means to do
>> so, just as the Americans did with Russia with the Space Race, Star Wars (Strategic
>> Defence Initiative) etc.
Nothing of the sort, mind you that myth has been around for a long time (i think it was first started in the 50s) so no surprise its taken hold.
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>> The Germans, amongst others, couldn't beat us militarily so turned to economic means to do
>> so, just as the Americans did with Russia with the Space Race, Star Wars (Strategic
>> Defence Initiative) etc.
Any evidence whatever for this assertion?
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"The Germans, amongst others, couldn't beat us militaril"
Without the Russians and the US we would have lost WW2.
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The US did not start fighting in WW2 until December 1941.
Hitlers error was to attack the Russians by the way he did.
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>> The US did not start fighting in WW2 until December 1941.
>>
>
Without US LendLease, and petrol the UK would have hardly survived until 1941....
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>>Without the Russians and the US we would have lost WW2>>
Stalin wasn't a friend most would have deliberately chosen....:
www.ibtimes.com/how-many-people-did-joseph-stalin-kill-1111789
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The Germans, amongst others, couldn't beat us militarily so turned to economic means to do so
"We" didn't win WW2 - "we" were on the winning side that's all. Without the Russians "we"'d have lost.
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>> Without the Russians "we"'d have lost.
For sure. If Hitler had not gone for Russia and committed to that campaign thing would have been different.
Luckily they were not prepared for the weather in Russia and their equipment was not up to it. Vehicles could not cope in the snow. They did not send the correct winter clothing to the troops.
Russia sacrificed millions to defend and ultimately win against the Germans. They moved vast production capabilities eastwards to avoid bombing damage.
We have a lot to thank the Russians of 1940s for. Later the establishment there have been a bit of a concern though. And the Cold War was something we all lived through I think and that could have had a different path.
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>> The Germans, amongst others, couldn't beat us militarily so turned to economic means to do
>>
They didn't manage to invade us in Panzers, Panthers, Tigers, Messerschmitts, Dorniers or Fokkers, though have been doing so in Type 2s, 2002s, 230Es, 737s and A320s etc every summer since ;-)
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... or Yugoslavia.
If anything the EU made it worse.
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>> ... or Yugoslavia.
>>
>> If anything the EU made it worse.
Thats depends on your precise view point in history, the timescale you view it over, and the part of the old Yugoslavia you choose to look at.
for example, Slovenians would heartily endorse their life and state now, compared to the communist rule Yugoslavia.
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I wasn't commenting on the outcome but rather on whether the EU helped prevent the war there or actually made it more inevitable. I'm sure they all wanted some form of independence from the old communist state.
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I dont think turmoil was preventable. It was a boil that had been festering since before the first world war, and was going to burst sooner or later and sure the EU (or its presence and promise) lanced it messily, but its not just the EU that cocks things like that up.
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Mr Hitler could have won the war at Dunkirk, but due to some un-explicable reason he pulled off his forces and allowed us to escape! A T.V documentary (not so long ago) stated the reason could have been because Our Royal Family were German, and a lot of Nobility in Parliament at the time had strong German interests, maybe this was correct, but as they also stated because of his suicide no-one will ever know the real reason that he did.
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I'm not sure it has stopped wars, but what it has done is foster an environment of easy travel, cross-border co-operation, and blurred borders which have helped to debunk the myth that people living on one side of an imaginary line on a map are any more than superficially different to people living on the other. The last 40 years have seen unprecedented travel between member states, fuelled by pan-European businesses, cheap air (and rail) travel, and an effective removal of border controls. I drove from the UK to Italy a couple of years ago, passing through 5 borders, and I never so much as showed my passport. It's the future, whether we choose to acknowledge and participate in it at this point, or not.
I've worked extensively in mainland Europe, using the UK's EU membership to move freely and quickly between countries, and while certain national stereotypes have a grain of truth in them, most people whether French, German, Italian, Spanish or otherwise, are just people. Languages change, food changes, and lifestyle changes, but at the heart of it, people generally want the same stuff: good health, family and friends around them, and a few quid (or Euros) left in the bank at the end of the month to enjoy themselves with. I've run meetings and events with representation from ten EU countries in them. After work, we go out for a few beers or some food, and the nationalities are completely irrelevant. This is how people naturally feel and behave in face to face scenarios, and how the human race, sadly not in my lifetime, will eventually end up.
Politicians will always pursue their own agendas of course, but compare for example how many British people had spent any time with German people in 1939 for example, compared with today? 40 years of open borders has shown a lot of British people that the Germans aren't some monster to be feared, but people with families, friends, jobs and all the same priorities and headaches as us. Likewise the Germans for the Brits. And any member state for any other member state. What the EU has done is to help more and more people to see that for themselves by facilitating travel and working across borders. Cultural understanding and cross border partnerships and friendships have mushroomed because the EU has made it easy for them to happen.
Would it stop a war? probably not. Would it significantly affect the public perception of one, and reduce support for it? No doubt about it. And public perception will always affect government policy because politics is a popularity contest when all is said and done.
Last edited by: DP on Mon 3 Apr 17 at 12:17
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>> but due to some un-explicable reason
>> he pulled off his forces and allowed us to escape!
>>
Not so inexplicable. We did exactly the same thing in the Gulf war, and let Saddam Hussein escape to fight another day.
It's called "thinking you might as well not bother but then coming to regret it".
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>>Mr Hitler could have won the war at Dunkirk, but due to some un-explicable reason he pulled off his forces and allowed us to escape!
www.ibtimes.co.uk/dunkirk-75th-anniversary-real-reason-hitler-let-british-troops-go-1503201
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"... Hitler could have won the war at Dunkirk, but due to some un-explicable reason he pulled off his forces..."
The article Dog refers to suggests one reason was an internal power struggle between the German military command and Hitler himself. Another reason that has been suggested is that Hitler wrongly believed the German airforce could prevent any rescue or counter-attack.
There is also the suggestion that Hitler misread the psychology of the British; he believed that once they had been forced to retreat they would never have the stomach to return to Europe. Hitler regarded the British as true, but misguided, Aryans and perhaps this belief also coloured his thinking.
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>>Mr Hitler could have won the war at Dunkirk, but due to some un-explicable reason he pulled off his forces and allowed us to escape!
Wasn't the need to boost the Russian front the main reason?
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>> Wasn't the need to boost the Russian front the main reason?
Was there a Russian front in 1940? I thought Hitler and Stalin were still besties at time.
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Some very selective memories / reading of history in this place.
Just after Dunkirk, Hitler had loads of troops on the channel coast but no plan or coherent transport to take them across, he also had conquered much of Europe by Blitzkrieg, he not only couldn't get his troops & armour across without a lot of preparation, he did not have air superiority or anything approaching it.
You may remember or have read about a little thing called the Battle of Britain.
A lot of British soldiers fought on at Dunkirk to allow the evacuation to succeed. I knew two of them who spent the rest of the war in captivity, "he pulled off his forces and allowed us to escape!", I don't think so for a moment.
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It wasn't Hitlers idea to have a Blitzkrieg.His Army Generals decided to carry on without Hitlers permission.This is according to a retired history Professor Maarten van Rossum.
If the U.K had been part of the mainland nothing at that time would have stopped the German army.Listening to Maarten the big enemy was never the U.K .
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>> It wasn't Hitlers idea to have a Blitzkrieg.His Army Generals decided to carry on without
>> Hitlers permission.
>>
Far be it from me to disagree with real historians but I find that difficult to believe, Dutchie.
It wasn't a one off but was how the German army waged war for he first 18 months and more of the war, given how much of a control freak Hitler was I can't think it would have carried on "without his permission", any more than any other aspect of the German conduct of the war.
You are right in that 1940 would have gone very badly for us without the channel, but it was there as a major obstacle and, along with the RAF, gave us time and a chance to recover.
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The Battle of Britain saved us from what could have been defeat.
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>> I dont think turmoil was preventable. It was a boil that had been festering since
>> before the first world war,
>>
Indeed so - since the division of the Roman Empire in 285 AD.
Because that administrative decision set the future fault line. The West stayed Catholic, the East became Orthodox and ultimately Ottoman and Muslim.
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Sir Winston Churchill was a Church of England worshipper.
He was born in Blenheim Palace.
Lord Randolph Churchill was the second son of a Duke of Marlborough.
He was Sir Winston Churchill"s father.
Sir Winston Churchill was offered the Dukedom of London but turned it down.
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Fluffy - please explain how these facts about Winston Churchill relate to the discussion, especially the post to which you replied.
I am interested in your response and why you made it. What are your thought processes here?
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In our anthem we sing " God save the Queen",
As a people and as a country we fight to the end and never give up.
The amount of Victoria Cross awarded in World War 1 and World War 2 testify to that.
It was King George Fifth that created the George Cross in 1940.
Hundreds of George Cross where awarded in World War 2.
That proves a point.
As a people and as a country we never give up.
The German mentality is not as strong as ours.
If the Germans are losing they give up.
We done not.
In war we are invinsible.
We have no fear of dying.
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>> In our anthem we sing " God save the Queen",
Except when we have a king, as we did in WW1 and WW2
>> As a people and as a country we fight to the end and never give up.
Singapore 1942
>> The amount of Victoria Cross awarded in World War 1 and World War 2 testify
>> to that.
How many Iron Crosses were issued? With Oak leaves?
>> As a people and as a country we never give up.
>> The German mentality is not as strong as ours.
>> If the Germans are losing they give up.
Stalingrad. Although Friedrich Wilhelm Ernst Paulus surrendered, it was only after he lost 760k dead, and 108k captured out of 1.1 million under his command. thats an 88% attrition.
Cant call that giving up.
>> In war we are invinsible.
Burma, Singapore 1942, Afganistahn, 1800 to 2015. We have never won there.
>> We have no fear of dying.
think you'll find we are not keen on it.
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 5 Apr 17 at 21:25
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In war we are invinsible. sic
You might also consider the American Revolutionary Wars particularly the battle of Saratoga or perhaps the battle of of Isandlwana in the Zulu wars as well as the instances quoted by Zero.
No we are not invincible. No country is as history readily proves and your belief in some kind of mental superiority over the Germans is frankly rather racist.
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Wed 5 Apr 17 at 22:47
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King George Fifth ( Old Mankind ) was a very clever man...he'd been dead 5 years in 1940 !
I was rather warming to Fluffers until that last couple of silly posts !
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>> the battle of of Isandlwana in the Zulu wars
Mind that one was rubbed out by the little affair at the Mission Station, Rorke's Drift, between Lieutenant John Chard of the Royal Engineers, Lieutenant Gonville Bromhead, 100 or so Welshmen vs "Strewf, Zulus, fousands of em"
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 5 Apr 17 at 23:38
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I see this is intended as a reply to mine above. However, you don't answer the point - you just provide a lot more stuff which just sort of...
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Fluffy is Mr Memory Man.
What are the 39 Steps?
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>>In our anthem we sing " God save the Queen",
>>As a people and as a country we fight to the end and never give up.
>>The amount of Victoria Cross awarded in World War 1 and World War 2 testify to that.
>>It was King George Fifth that created the George Cross in 1940.
>>Hundreds of George Cross where awarded in World War 2.
>>That proves a point.
>>As a people and as a country we never give up.
>>The German mentality is not as strong as ours.
>>If the Germans are losing they give up.
>>We done not.
>>In war we are invinsible.
>>We have no fear of dying.
I say old chap, that post is almost incomprehensible drivel.
(My last post was deleted so I suspect I was a little rude, but it was thumbed by someone so must have had resonance with some others here!)
Last edited by: Wibble on Thu 6 Apr 17 at 09:06
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>>The German mentality is not as strong as ours.
>>If the Germans are losing they give up.
Having worked in Germany I find Germans to be charming, efficient, hard working, polite, intelligent, fun loving and very welcoming.
Without fail, every German I met was polite and made their best efforts to help me (someone who could not speak German) by speaking in English, even to the extent of using it as the lingua franca when other Germans were spoken to, like when meeting staff on factory tours.
Generally the standard of English was very high and often better than mine and I am a native! On the few occasions where their grasp of English wasn't so good they would persevere rather than ask on of their colleagues to translate which I took to be charming as it was explained that they wanted me to feel comfortable and they also liked practicing the language.
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My daughter learned German at school from about age 12 maybe. She took part in an exchange, and the German girl who came here was absolutely fluent, age about 15, including all the swear words. We went to visit her family near Koln and her parents had as much English as I do German... :-)
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>>Koln and her parents had as much English as I do German... :-)
I know not everyone in Germany is fluent but the domineering, without sense of humor, sausage eating k raut is becoming a tad boring.
Last edited by: Wibble on Thu 6 Apr 17 at 10:38
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>> I say old chap, that post is almost incomprehensible drivel.
Didn't stop you repeating it in full though ;)
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Germans often seem to be more fluent in English than Brits and with accents which are themselves better than ours. I suppose this can be put down to a philosophy of "If a thing's width doing, it is worth doing very well indeed" that inspires their approach to, say, engineering.
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>> Germans often seem to be more fluent in English than Brits and with accents which
>> are themselves better than ours.
>>
Not all, I had a German friend from Hamburg a few years back who had learned much of his English from American forces TV over there and consequently whose fluent English was pronounced in a quite exaggerated east coast American accent.
Last edited by: commerdriver on Thu 6 Apr 17 at 11:29
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I had a German 'ladyfriend' back in the early nineties who spoke very good English.
She used to pick me up on pronunciation being I'm a cockney from sowf lunden.
One particular word I can well-remember was thought, which I would pronounce as fort :o)
She used to 'pick me up' on the way I used to use a knifen fork too ...needless to say, our relationship didn't last long!
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>> >> I say old chap, that post is almost incomprehensible drivel.
>>
>> Didn't stop you repeating it in full though ;)
>>
I know! I was making a point and at least I removed the excess lines!
Last edited by: Wibble on Thu 6 Apr 17 at 11:30
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... I'd add if your last post was deleted then it's probably that there was something that someone in power didn't like about it. Keeping on adding it won't win you friends!
I find the post in question quite comprehensible anyway, and not drivel, although it doesn't add much to the sum of our knowledge. A bit like yours really. :-)
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A general question: how can I edit a posting after it has appeared here? Other posters in the past seemed to have implied that this is what they had done.
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You need to be quick, there is a time limit on how long the edit button remains (5 mins rings a bell).
Or become a mod :-)
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>> How is it done?
>>
For 5? Minutes after you submit a post an edit button appears next to the Report message button.
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It's an annoying feature of the forum, sometimes causing frustration after carefully rephrasing an edit only to find it has timed out when you push the button to send it.
Other forums allow posters to "own" their posts indefinitely, correcting stupid mistakes or simply withdrawing the comment if the debate has degenerated and you no longer wish to be associated with it.
But I suppose this is the budget version, so you don't get all the options.
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The edit is set quite low for some reason or another, it's not really ideal but it is what it is.
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I'm not defending this forum software but another which I also moderate has indefinite ownership of your own posts and that too can have its downsides, like posters changing their posts to suit the ensuing discussion, thereby making the responding posters appear plain weird sometimes. It's occasionally turned into a bit of a game, with quite funny results - though some people here would be frustrated by it.
I think we are fortunate on this forum to have posters who are in the main very eloquent which results in many an interesting post and discussion, which seems to be sadly lacking in many other forums.
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On some you have to give a reason for an edit, which appears in small type at the foot.
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>> On some you have to give a reason for an edit
But not all are compulsory to include a reason.
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The EU Stopped Wars - Ambo
