Yes, yes, I know...no laughing....! But, I bought a new BMW in the summer (it was supposed to be a 330e, but the delays kept increasing and I'd bought another plug-in hybrid while I was waiting). It's rear wheel drive, manual and has a turbocharged 6 cylinder engine. It's also on 18" wheels that are (a) rather wide, (b) rather pricey and (c) not very good in damp or low temperature conditions. They're Michelins FWIW, absolutely brilliant in the dry!
So I've bought a set of winter wheels / tyres from someone whose just got rid of a similar car. Manmaths says that a new set of tyres would be £700 or so. Winter tyres would be £850 or so. 16" winter wheels / tyres were £500. OEM wheels and tyres, albeit with only 6m left on the tyres, and the three or four months they'll be on the car will save a few mm wear on the real tyres. At £150/mm of summer tyre wear they'll pay for themselves over the winter :)
But when I went to fit them today I dsovered that not only does it not have a spare (I knew that) or a jack (I'd hoped it might have one of them) it doesn't even have a wheelbrace! At that point I gave up and sorted out the Audi cabriolet instead :p
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I ran my old X1 on BMW witners, as the car ran on standard Run Flats, BMW gave me a very nice little compressor and some gel. :-(
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Yes, I've got the compressor too. There's absolutely nowhere for a spare, not even a spacesaver. But I'm ok with that. A jack and wheelbrace would have been nice though! Investigations in the afternoon showed that the e-tron is also lacking a spare (known) and jack, but does have a wheelbrace. What use it is without a jack is another matter... ;). Fortunately the good old convertible Audi has a jack, wheelbrace and space saver spare! Tomorrow I will see if a 1994 Audi jack and wheelbrace will fit a 2016 BMW!!
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>> Yes, I've got the compressor too. There's absolutely nowhere for a spare, not even a
>> spacesaver.
>> Snip
>> Tomorrow I will see if a 1994 Audi jack and wheelbrace will fit a 2016 BMW!!
I made sure my recent X1 purchase came with a spacesaver (and tools, and definitely not run-flats). There were very, very few such specified in the country (and I was told that a dealer-fit wasn't really an option, due to the factory boot prep - which, on getting the car proved to be probably correct!)
For quite some years, the official BMW jack has had to fit a (probably unique) rectangular cut-out, so you may be unlucky with the Audi tools (I have a "shaped" jack-pad under consideration off eBay to fit my trolley jack - already got a "sill" shaped one for SWMBOs ex-Fiesta).
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Makes sense. My V40 T5 had a spacesaver and was factory option.
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I can see the logic of no jack or wheel brace. If you have no spare then what use is either really?
I also know someone at work who has (or did have) a BMW with run flats.... on the way in to the office the tyre was damage. The damage was sidewall damage but not drivable long distance and not fixable. No tyre place nearby had a suitable run-flat so he had to have the car transported home. At least 100 miles.
Someone else I know with a BMW X3 had problems with the tyre pressure sensors triggering all the time. This went on for months and it was off the road a lot. Spare parts shipped from the US etc. The problem in the end was the wrong run flats that had been fitted. Correct size, speed rating etc. but the wrong load rating. So not tyres suitable for the X3. They'd have been fine on a 5 series.
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If I had a jack and wheel brace I could have put my winter wheels / tyres on... ;)
And also if I found a flat tyre when at home it'd be easy enough to run thee wheel to the local tyre place, if I had a jack... I do see your point though, not really much use for lost people most of the time. And if you're BMW selling 2 million cars a year the £10 saving on a jack/wheel brace soon adds up. Not as much as the £150 saving on the spare tyre in the first place... ;)
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The 3 VWs I've had (Golf, Passat and Passat CC) between 1999 and 2011 all had full size matching alloy spare wheels. Not a space saver or cheap wheel - the same alloy wheel on all four corners.
When buying a car that cost say £19k, the cost of the wheel/tyre is a small percentage. Even the Golf GTI 1.8T with the options I selected was close to £19k in 1999 so a lot more today. Makes today's Golf GTI/GTD look value for money with some of the options I selected standard.
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>> When buying a car that cost say £19k, the cost of the wheel/tyre is a
>> small percentage. Even the Golf GTI 1.8T with the options I selected was close to
>> £19k in 1999 so a lot more today.
When you're making cars however, especially two million a year, saving £100 on an alloy/tyre/jack/wheelbrace is not small change. £200 million in fact :)
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>> When you're making cars however, especially two million a year, saving £100 on an alloy/tyre/jack/wheelbrace
>> is not small change. £200 million in fact :)
>>
...that, of course, only applies if they don't bother to charge you for them if/when fitted......
You wish!.....
(I always thought, rather than a cost-saving exercise, the (main) reason for omitting spares completely was to reduce the weight of the standard vehicle and thus improve the, as tested, quoted fuel consumption figures).
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>> (I always thought, rather than a cost-saving exercise, the (main) reason for omitting spares
>> completely was to reduce the weight of the standard vehicle and thus improve the, as tested,
>> quoted fuel consumption figures).
I think that's why the more fuel efficient diesel A4's have such a small fuel tank as standard (40 litres?) but a larger one is a no cost upgrade. That way a standard vehicle with a full or half full tank would be lighter.
I can't think why they'd fit such a small tank otherwise but offer a free upgrade.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Wed 28 Dec 16 at 10:01
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True, I meant they used to be standard and now they're not, 'saving' a few hundred million. Of course deleting them also meant they didn't need to find other, more expensive, ways of designing weight out of vehicles ;) The bonus of now charging £150 for something that used to be standard is the icing on the cake for them, and one of the few examples of where standard spec of cars has got worse over the years...
On which note, RTJs comment on his '99 Golf got me pondering on the standard spec of my '99 A4. The only thing of any use I can think of that's standard now that wasn't then on an SE spec Audi is Bluetooth I think. My TDi SE Avant had a full compliment of power windows/mirrors, climate and cruise control, alloys all round, auto dimming mirror, roof rails, traction control (might not have been full stability control, on reflection...), a full set of airbags, steering wheel controls for the audio, etc etc. It cost £24k. I expect coast2coast could get an A4 SE Avant for a similar price today...!
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When the Golf was stolen I had two A4 saloons as temporary cars. An SE and a Sport. The SE was better equipped I recall compared to the Sport but was a lot cheaper. My Golf had air-con and a sunroof and I'd added cruise control and a CD auto-changer. Only the SE had a CD auto-changer.
The SE was the more comfortable car but it only had the 1.8 petrol engine. The Sport like my Golf had the 1.8 turbo. It was faster and the handling/steering was so much better. A lot more fun than the 1.8SE but very spartan considering it was a £25k car. And remember that was £25k in 1999.
Of course they both had electric windows in the front (Sport didn't in the rear) and auto-dimming rear view mirrors. But neither had cruise control.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Wed 28 Dec 16 at 18:05
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We'd been 'pushed' into diesels by '99 as our company car list was based on some form of 'total cost of ownership' which included fuel. So mine was a TDI. I'd had a 1.8T saloon before that - not sport, and it wasn't available in SE trim. Electric sunroof was standard, but climate control was c £2k. In total 'mine' came with almost £4K of options, and still no alloy wheels! A passenger airbag was extra...
Edited to add, through coast2coast cars an A4 Avant 1.4T FSI SE Avant with metallic paint can be had for £24,445. In May 1999 the P11d value of my A4 TDI SE Avant with metallic paint was just over £24k. Something has to give, and if that means the lack of a full size alloy spare I'm okay with that :)
Last edited by: PeterS on Wed 28 Dec 16 at 18:39
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I choose the Golf 1.8T because of emissions which were 189g/km of CO2. Some colleagues claimed they had no idea taxation was to be based on CO2 when it came in a bit later. The replacement was a Passat 1.8T which I think emitted about 192g/km CO2 or thereabouts.
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>> The 3 VWs I've had (Golf, Passat and Passat CC) between 1999 and 2011 all
>> had full size matching alloy spare wheels. Not a space saver or cheap wheel -
>> the same alloy wheel on all four corners.
>>
Our 2011 Golf has a spacesaver as does our 2015 Tiguan. However a lot of PistonHeaders got Passat Alltracks earlier this year in a lease glitch and were amazed they came with a full size alloy spare.
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>> If I had a jack and wheel brace I could have put my winter wheels / tyres on... ;)
Wheel braces and jacks that are generally supplied with the car are for emergency measures only. i.e. to use at the side of the road as a last resort to put a spare wheel on.
Half the time the supplied wheel brace is bent at the wrong angle and can end up damaging locking wheel nuts when you try undoing them.
Best thing to get is a trolley jack and star brace, or a breaker bar with the appropriate sized socket for those stubborn hard to undo nuts that gorilla tyre fitter has done up too tight.
or pop the car down the local tyre garage and give them some beer money to swap the wheels over.
EDIt 4 or 5 years ago, LIDL were selling a folding star wheel brace, which I keep in the car as it takes up very little room.
It's something like this one that B&Q are selling. tinyurl.com/hncvrdc . Also on places like Amazon and eBay.
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 28 Dec 16 at 02:37
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I carry an Am-Tech extending wheel brace wrench. Currently £7.25 from Amazon.
I check the wheel studs with it weekly as part of my 'fluid inspections'!
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>>
>> Best thing to get is a trolley jack and star brace, or a breaker bar
>> with the appropriate sized socket for those stubborn hard to undo nuts that gorilla tyre
>> fitter has done up too tight.
>>
>> or pop the car down the local tyre garage and give them some beer money
>> to swap the wheels over.
>>
Thanks! I'd prefer the second option (in the abbreviated quote above) but unfortunately there isn't room in the car for four wheels/tyres, so that'd involve 3 trips, two in the Audi to drop off and collect a set of wheels :( I'll have to look into trolley jacks I think!
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Maybe mark which wheel came off which corner and which stud ?
I try to ensure windy guns are not used to tighten my wheel nuts but a torque wrench is used.
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Just in case you get a puncture at night, I was told by a tyre fitter to have the locking wheel nut directly opposite the tyre valve
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I binned all mine. I reckon there's more chance of having a faff with them than having a wheel robbed.
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It's not just a case of replacing stolen wheels though. There is the price of the tyres to also factor in, and these days thieves are stealing the wheels for the tyres.
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Well of course, i didn't think they'd split them at the roadside. ;)
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Couldnt tell you the last time I had a puncture but I would still never willingly drive a car without a spare of some sort. I reckon if I did get a puncture, good chance it will be pothole damage due to the state of the roads round here so gunk would be of no use.
Both the wife's Fiesta, and my Civic, just came with gunk and compressor but I bought second hand space savers for them (thankfully there is space for a spacesaver).
My Hyundai ix35 came with a full size alloy spare (which probably didn't help the fuel consumption) but it meant that when I came to replace two tyres, I only needed to buy one as the spare wheel got put on as well.
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And anyway - no need for winter tyres this year - I have fitted them which means you can be guaranteed that not only will it be snow free, but most likely frost free!
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>>Couldnt tell you the last time I had a puncture but I would still never willingly drive a car without a spare of some sort.
So surely pure paranoia? I've had two cambelts fail on me, and (to date) the only flat tyres I've had were when somebody kindly punctured two of them whilst the car was parked.
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Probably not paranoia but just an "affordable" insurance policy.
If I got non repairable puncture at side of road I could probably guarantee it would be a dark, wet country road when I was in a rush to catch a plane / boat or whatever. i would then be most annoyed with myself for not carrying a spare when there was a space in my car for doing so.
However if a cambelt went then I would know that there was nothing that could be done at roadside.
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>> If I got non repairable puncture at side of road I could probably guarantee it
>> would be a dark, wet country road when I was in a rush to catch
>> a plane / boat or whatever. i would then be most annoyed with myself for
>> ........
And having to deposit loads of stuff in the gutter to gain access to the spare
and having to stuff the grotty wheel in the boot making sure not to soil the
white tropical suit etc.
Ah! The joys of motoring.
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Just call the AA so much easier!
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Not so easy if you're somewhere on the 30,000 miles of roads in the UK where there is no mobile reception.
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Well we've made the 400odd mile journey without a puncture, so that's good. The 250 or so miles in France were mostly done in freezing fog though, and the temperature didn't rise higher then -2 all day. Winter tyres might have helped - the torque of an electric motor overcomes the grip on a damp/wet/icy road quite easily, and the traction control light flashes alarmingly often!
The Audi is undoubtedly more refined than the BMW though, and despite the weather conditions was actually a very relaxing drive. The slower speed necessitated by the conditions mean an average fuel consumption of 56mpg. The car was fully charged when we left, and was used in 'hybrid' mode. We'd used about 2/3rds of the battery by the time we got to the eurotunnel (entire journey in bright sunlight - not a whisp of fog to be seen, despite the dire weather warnings!) but the trains were delayed and we were able to top it back up to almost full in the hour we were there, using the free chargers. Some pretty impressive ice build up on the grill, wing mirrors and, oddly, the sat-nav aerial on the roof. An added bonus of the PHEV is that the heater is electric, so despite returning this morining after an overnight stop in Arras to a heavily frosted car the heater was blasting hot air a minute, and the car defrosted very quickly. I feared having to sacrifice a credit card to use as an ice scraper!
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>> >> If I had a jack and wheel brace I could have put my winter wheels / tyres on... ;)
>>
>> Best thing to get is a trolley jack and star brace, or a breaker bar with the appropriate sized socket
>> for those stubborn hard to undo nuts that gorilla tyre fitter has done up too tight.
>>
>> or pop the car down the local tyre garage and give them some beer money to swap the wheels over.
>>
I asked my son about this.
West London prices £20 a corner plus VAT.
I recently supervised the swapping of the winter wheels for summer wheels on sons Audi Q5.
A dry warm day and no rush to do it.
It was his first ever attempt.He did most of the grunt and I did the teaching bit.
The Audi kit was extensive and impressive.
I have a torque wrench but what value is required for the wheel bolts ?
Two different values quoted on the web and none in the manual.
I advised him to get a torque wrench for about £30
Were the bolts dry and clean ???
The winter set had Copaslip on them
The summer set had what appeared to be hardened white grease on them.
A good job and a happy son.
A good coverage of the topic
forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?183000-Lug-Bolt-Torque-Chart
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>> I asked my son about this. West London prices £20 a corner plus VAT.
>>
I got Costco to do it on my wife's Tiguan - I don't mind changing the odd wheel, but didn't fancy doing it four times.
They charged their standard fitting charge, which I think is £7 + VAT per wheel. It's not long ago that they only charged £3 - that would have been nicer! They did check the balance and put green valve caps on too!
Thankfully all four wheels went into the Tiguan OK, although not with a massive amount of spare room. I had contemplated loading them into my Merc estate for transport but it wasn't necessary.
Last edited by: Bill Payer on Wed 17 May 17 at 14:41
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What's all this talk about wheel-braces? I've never used them. An extendable wheel wrench from Halfords (or similar) makes the job of changing wheels soo much easier.
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The trouble with extendable wheel wrenches is that in the wrong hands, the wheel bolts (or nuts) can be over tightened.
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You should always use a torque wrench ...
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>> You should always use a torque wrench ...
For tightening, yes. For undoing, either an extendable wrench, or breaker bar.
I once ruined an expensive torque wrench (I stripped the ratchet teeth) changing some suspension bushes. The bolts were done up FT and I should have used a breaker bar to undo them.
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>> You should always use a torque wrench ...
Yeah, because I carry one of those all the time.
Absolutely cannot be a***d. Tight enough is tight enough, not had a wheel fall off or a stud break yet.
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>> >> You should always use a torque wrench ...
>>
>> Yeah, because I carry one of those all the time.
>>
>> Absolutely cannot be a***d. Tight enough is tight enough, not had a wheel fall off
>> or a stud break yet.
I got a TW cheap one from Aldi. Its long enough to get some leverage off, accurate enough to get the nuts on there or thereabouts, and short enough to live in the car with the jack/wheel/locking wheel nuts instead of a wheel brace.
Jobs a gudjun.
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>> >> >> If I had a jack and wheel brace I could have put my
>> I recently supervised the swapping of the winter wheels for summer wheels on sons Audi
>> Q5.
>> A dry warm day and no rush to do it.
And there was a worthwhile exercise, good job he had them on over our severe snow bound ice laden harsh winter. Got the summer tyres on just in time for the floods.
When are people going to ever learn, Winter tyres for the UK are a marking con. All season or rain tyres are the way to go.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 19 May 17 at 10:50
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>>
>> When are people going to ever learn, Winter tyres for the UK are a marking
>> con. All season or rain tyres are the way to go.
>>
No, had a set of winters for the 120i for the last five years or so 16" steel wheels with Dunlop run flat winter tyres, they are noisier though great when icy or snowy and grip well below around 7 deg ambient, and we don't use any more tyres as we can only wear out one set at a time, i.e. the summers last longer.
Seriously thinking about winters for the M135. All season and rain tyres are too much of a compromise in the summer.
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I started fitting all-season tyres back when I had the Lancer. I then had some winter Vredestein Wintrac Xtremes fitted to my Forester.
My present crate is a CR-V fitted with Dunlop Grandtreks, all totally unnecessary down here in Cornwall with its mild wet winters
A fool and his Monet ...
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>> so 16" steel wheels with Dunlop run flat winter tyres, they are noisier though great
>> when icy or snowy and grip well below around 7 deg ambient, and we don't
And we got loads of those this winter didn't we.
>> use any more tyres as we can only wear out one set at a time,
HUH? the extra set of tyres you bought dont count, they were free were they?
>> Seriously thinking about winters for the M135. All season and rain tyres are too much
>> of a compromise in the summer.
You can wibble away all you like, its utterly unjustifiable on any level in the UK. (unless you live in the wilds of scotland, and then winter tyres are the least of your problems)
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>> >> Seriously thinking about winters for the M135. All season and rain tyres are too
>> much
>> >> of a compromise in the summer.
>>
>> You can wibble away all you like, its utterly unjustifiable on any level in the
>> UK. (unless you live in the wilds of scotland, and then winter tyres are the
>> least of your problems)
>>
Utterly unjustifiable is a matter of personal opinion though, isn't it?
The summer Michelin Pilot SuperSports that the M235i came with are fantastically grippy most of the time, but at low temperatures (not necessarily freezing) and in the wet they are nowhere near as good as they could be
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>> Utterly unjustifiable is a matter of personal opinion though, isn't it?
Waht buying an extra set of tyres that is not required? No I call that unjustifiable.
>> The summer Michelin Pilot SuperSports that the M235i came with are fantastically grippy most of
>> the time, but at low temperatures (not necessarily freezing) and in the wet they are
>> nowhere near as good as they could be
Which is why wet or all season tyres are the intelligent choice. As grippy as you need in the hot dry, and falling off far less in the kind of weather we get in the UK.
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>> Which is why wet or all season tyres are the intelligent choice. As grippy as
>> you need in the hot dry, and falling off far less in the kind of
>> weather we get in the UK.
>>
Simply not true, no all season tyre enables you to truly enjoy a fine handling 150 bhp car yet alone get the best out 300+ bhp.
Aside from which a good summer tyre is better/safer in the dry and also generally in pouring rain above around 7 deg C.
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Its is simply true, there is no way you even get close to reaching the limits of the car, 300 bhp fine handling or not. You are fooling yourself. You are a marketing victim.
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>> Its is simply true, there is no way you even get close to reaching the
>> limits of the car, 300 bhp fine handling or not. You are fooling yourself. You
>> are a marketing victim.
>>
Depends how you drive it ;)
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Am I missing something here?
Surely the true test of skill is being able to drive like that in adverse conditions without modifications?
Pat
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>> Its is simply true, there is no way you even get close to reaching the
>> limits of the car, 300 bhp fine handling or not. You are fooling yourself. You
>> are a marketing victim.
>>
I said get the best out of, not reach the limits, two different things, better tyres make the steering more responsive, sharper turn in etc, optimise the experience and safety.
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>> I said get the best out of, not reach the limits, two different things, better
>> tyres make the steering more responsive, sharper turn in etc, optimise the experience and safety.
Advisable not to turn in sharply in winter conditions.
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>>
>> Advisable not to turn in sharply in winter conditions.
>>
We're talking summer tyres now.
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>> You can wibble away all you like, its utterly unjustifiable on any level in the
>> UK. (unless you live in the wilds of scotland, and then winter tyres are the
>> least of your problems)
>>
Not required there either, I used to do the Glasgow to Kyle of Lochalsh via Glencoe route several times a month year round. Always on summer tyres, never missed a deadline even when it was cold enough for the freshwater lochs to be frozen. It has not been that cold for a long time. Winter tyres are only really required if you live or drive in the high altitude areas. The road through Glencoe is about 1,000ft above sea level, it is always well snow ploughed and gritted. The most common thing to see in a ditch, an overpowered vanity 4x4.
Specialist tyres may let you drive faster in poor road conditions, that sounds like a really good plan.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Fri 19 May 17 at 13:01
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>> Not required there either, I used to do the Glasgow to Kyle of Lochalsh via
>> Glencoe route several times a month year round. >>
I had a very narrow escape on one of the hills coming off the Mendips a few years ago, coming down is much worse than trying to get up, that was the incentive to get the winters.
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>>
>> Specialist tyres may let you drive faster in poor road conditions, that sounds like a
>> really good plan.
>>
Or stop quicker when required, which does sound like a really good plan ;)
Of course winter tyres aren't essential. But they *are* available, and they *do* provider better grip in some circumstances. Is the grip needed most of the time? Probably not. Is it useful some of the time? Yes.
So, for the same reason I don't use unbranded tyres on any cars, because better performance is available for not much more money, I'm going to use winter tyres if I can :)
For those that done't see the need, that's fine. But would you chose some Chinese ditchfinder tyres over a decent set of Michelins? After all, you could just drive slower ;)
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>> >> when icy or snowy and grip well below around 7 deg ambient, >>
>> And we got loads of those this winter didn't we.
>>
Had to go to St David's mid Jan, cold weather light snow and more forecast, had the winters on the 120i and felt very secure on mixture of icy and slushy roads.
>> HUH? the extra set of tyres you bought dont count, they were free were they?
>>
I mean that if you take the summers off with, say 5mm tread and doo 5000 miles on the winters, the summers have still got 5mm tread on them when you refit them so aside from the initial investment in wheels and tyres they are no more costly to run on going.
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>> I mean that if you take the summers off with, say 5mm tread and doo
>> 5000 miles on the winters, the summers have still got 5mm tread on them when
>> you refit them so aside from the initial investment in wheels and tyres they are
>> no more costly to run on going.
Its a sum that only adds up at certain parts of the car owning life cycle. You have to sell the car with both sets of tyres worn to minimum to make that work.
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>> You have to sell the car with both sets of tyres worn to minimum
>> to make that work.
>>
You can sell the winters on eBay in around November quite easily ...
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>> >> You have to sell the car with both sets of tyres worn to minimum
>> >> to make that work.
>> >>
>>
>> You can sell the winters on eBay in around November quite easily ...
Oh even more hassle. I'd blame BMW for selling you a car that was obviously unfit for purpose, after all, that is what you are trying to tell us.
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>>
>> Oh even more hassle. I'd blame BMW for selling you a car that was obviously
>> unfit for purpose, after all, that is what you are trying to tell us.
>>
No, from experience I'd have winters for almost any car, my only quibble id the Dunlops are a bit noisy on dry roads below 30-40 mph.
A rwd BMW has more chance of getting up or down a snowy hill on winters than a Range Rover would on summers.
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>>A rwd BMW has more chance of getting up or down a snowy hill on winters than a Range Rover would on summers.
I don't think so.
I took a Merc up into the snowy mountains a bit ago. It didn't go terribly well. My non-plastic Landcruiser has what are, I guess, summer tyres on it. It goes everywhere with no issue.
Oh, and I mean the Andes, not a group of poxy hlls, and I mean real snow, not a bit of frost.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 19 May 17 at 17:15
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>> >>A rwd BMW has more chance of getting up or down a snowy hill on
>> winters than a Range Rover would on summers.
>>
>> I don't think so.
>>
Strange but true.
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Don't know what to tell you, not my personal experience.
Unless you believe that a BMW is substantially better on snow than a Mercedes, I don't think its true.
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>> Unless you believe that a BMW is substantially better on snow than a Mercedes, I
>> don't think its true.
>>
...A BMW is better than a Mercedes on anything, dontcherknow!
;-)
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>> Don't know what to tell you, not my personal experience.
>>
>> Unless you believe that a BMW is substantially better on snow than a Mercedes, I
>> don't think its true.
>>
Did the MB have winter tyres? Either way the Landcruiser probably has M&S tyres (no not the well know high st brand ...). so the 4WD Landcruiser would be better anyway.
Put it another way:
a 2WD BMW on winters would be better in snow than a 4WD BMW on summers ...
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>>a 2WD BMW on winters would be better in snow than a 4WD BMW on summers ...
I understand the point, but I flat out don't believe it.
The Merc did have winter tyres, I have no idea what the Landcruiser has got on it. I'll look later.
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p.s. I did not mean to say that I thought that you were lying.
Simply that I have driven both in snow and that is quite different to my experience.
Though it is true to say that the 2WD Merc with summer tyres simply won't move if its on substantial snow.
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Several months after buying my 6yo 330 it needed new tyres. Which was negotiated in the purchase price. Living in the Y Dales I bought a full set of Michelin Alpins which I left on all year round. 6 years later and almost 35k miles on I sold it with the same set of boots still fitted & a decent legal tread depth.
I'm no Ari Vatanen but it still gripped ok, and accelerated fine with those all season tyres. And trust me I booted it hard when traffic was light.
Approx 4 years ago, returning home in falling snow, those tyres got me past a line of snowbound traffic on the Addingham bypass, and past a Range Rover on a short steep hill out of Coniston Cold.
Maybe the RR was on well worn summer tyres. I was too busy praying to pay much attention as I didn't want to overnight in a farmhouse or spend £100 B & B at Coniston Hall Hotel.
Living where I do, all season tyres seem the sensible option. I have no intention of exploring ultimate grip levels in the wet or dry, which are probably far beyond my own driving skills.
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>> Though it is true to say that the 2WD Merc with summer tyres simply won't
>> move if its on substantial snow.
>>
I don't know what MBs should be worse than BMWs but certainly a colleague moved from a 5 Series to an E Class and had to abandon the E Class and walk home when it got stuck - something that had never happened in the BMW.
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"a 2WD BMW on winters would be better in snow than a 4WD BMW on summers"
Absolutely and I watched it happen. A Landrover Defender (on summers) totally stranded on a snowy, unmade road and field as it tried to rescue a Toyota Avensis. Both of them towed out by a Lexus RX on winters (not mine, I might add). My RX is on intermediates and they're abysmal in winter - they make me nervous. The LS is on brand new winters and they're pretty good - they give me confidence but it is a big fat car. The old FWD Peugeot on winters would run rings around both of them - fantastic in the mountains when we're skiing. On summers in the snow - I've got it stuck in a level school car park ffs. An embarrassment.
I've got photos of the chalet we used to rent in the mountains, I should dig them out (good pun). The driveway is about 5 car lengths or less. In that short distance, the road is it at exactly my eye level - so really, really steep. Every day, I had to brush off 6 inches of snow and then drive off to the resort and it always made it to the road on the first attempt. I really couldn't believe it was possible. But it clearly was. Try in summers and you'll be trying it till April.
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Meanwhile in the UKs mild maritime climate marketing is effective on the gullible.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 20 May 17 at 09:29
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>> Meanwhile in the UKs mild maritime climate marketing is effective on the gullible.
>>
Would that be the same marketing that convinces many people that the improved performance of Michelin / Pirelli / Continental tyres over Nokian / Landsail is worth it, even though they'll seldom reach anywhere near the limits of the cheapest tyre in normal use...and you can always moderate your driving to compensate ;)
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There is actually a serious point lurking in there Peter. At a time when money for us was tighter than a tight thing, I had an old Mondeo estate. It needed four new tyres and I simply couldn't afford premium ones. It got a set of Singalongamax Ditchmasters, or something like that anyway on it and indeed the performance of those tyres was at best, adequate.
However, that car was inherently a good handler and provided you didn't ask the tyres to cope with any lairy driving it was absolutely fine.
Similarly, while I'm sure winter tyres add to the safety margins in cold conditions, I've never actually been stuck or unable to complete a journey in winter as a direct result of having the "wrong" tyres. I have just had to drive a bit more respectfully to the conditions.
I compare winter tyres to ABS or traction control, all of them do indeed add to safety in certain circumstances but it is perfectly possible to manage quite well without them.
But, if someone wants to fit winter tyres, and feel safer with them on, then fair enough, why not?
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>> Meanwhile in the UKs mild maritime climate marketing is effective on the gullible.
>>
Frankly that's hardly worth answering ...
Last Dec/Jan we had some slushy icy weather, right in the winter tyre operating window. Summer tyres might have been fine for a trip to the local shops though with 300 miles to do over two days winter tyres provide added safety and peace of mind, except for the worry that some pillock on summer Jingokians might run up the back ...
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>> Frankly that's hardly worth answering ..
You just did.
Your driving skills are not worth challenging.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 20 May 17 at 17:22
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>>
>> Last Dec/Jan we had some slushy icy weather, right in the winter tyre operating window.
Funnily enough the inclement weather (which frankly is the worse you can describe it, despite your efforts to big it up) wasn't your own personal little microclimate, seems the rest of us managed just fine on normal tyres
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>> ...the rest of us managed just fine on normal tyres
Branded or unbranded :p
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>> Every tyre has a brand .
>>
Don't recognise some of these though, this is an interesting premium v cheapo tyre comparison.
tinyurl.com/la83z8r
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>> Every tyre has a brand .
>>
Mmm...maybe... They all have a name, certainly. But brand implies some form of recognition doesn't it? Although perhaps not...
For clarity then, a recognised premium or mid-tier brand tyre, or a cheap unrecognisable one :p
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Y'know all this stuff about Mercs being "undriveable" in snow and ice is nonsense in my experience. I've just completed my fifth winter driving an E class. It goes all over the UK and beyond in all conditions and hasn't ever been a problem to drive due to poor weather.
Sorry if that doesn't fit with the myths, but it is just the case. If anything, it copes rather better with the white stuff than my wife's front wheel drive Qashqai which understeers horribly in slippery conditions.
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The best way to cope with snow and ice is to pull the blankets over your head and go back to sleep although a few weeks in Madeira or the Canaries worked pretty well too. :-)
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>> Y'know all this stuff about Mercs being "undriveable" in snow and ice is nonsense in
>> my experience. I've just completed my fifth winter driving an E class. It goes all
>> over the UK and beyond in all conditions and hasn't ever been a problem to
>> drive due to poor weather.
>>
To be fair, I don't think we've had a winter for 6 years. ;)
I never get these comments though - both ways. Some people saying their car basically wouldn't move and others apparently having no problem. Perhaps you're an awesome driver and/or had a lucky choice of tyre fitted.
Mine has had All Seasons on for a few years (which accounts for the lack of recent winters!) and even with these I've learned that I cannot touch the gas pedal on wet grass. If it didn't move at idle I'd be stuffed (or have to go backwards). I stopped on my mate's pebble-stone drive as his dog ran to the car and I had to roll back to the initial tarmac bit to get going again.
I don't know - it could be that if I let it slip then traction control would intervene and sort it out. Thankfully I haven't driven it enough in poor weather to be able to do extensive testing.
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>> But brand implies some form of recognition doesn't
>> it? Although perhaps not...
>>
>> For clarity then, a recognised premium or mid-tier brand tyre, or a cheap unrecognisable one
>> :p
I went with tyres with good wet ratings, and low noise ratings. I can't remember what brand they were. It was a recognised name tho, and not much more than names I couldn't pronounce.
But I know they will do me all winter/spring/summer/autumn long.
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>>I went with tyres with good wet ratings, and low noise ratings.
It is hoped the noise ratings are accurate but I assume the rating is for nice new tyres.
Noise level when half worn would be helpful but unlikely to be published.
I have experienced two examples of high levels of tyre noise.
One with cheap tyres and one with premium tyres.
My Mondeo came the FATEO tyres made in Argentina.
It was only when I swapped them did I find out that things were then quiet.
The X Type came with Pirellis and once again the replacement were so much quieter even when well worn.
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BMW - Winter wheels / tyres - R.P.
