Non-motoring > Women and children first. Miscellaneous
Thread Author: Pat Replies: 29

 Women and children first. - Pat
...at least that's how I always thought it worked.

Apparently not with the refugees from Calais.

We ( the cynics, the doubters) have been branded heartless, racist and everything else under the sun with the moral blackmail about the need to do something about the many women and children in dreadful conditions in the camp at Calais.

Now something is finally being done about it and we are taking them into the care of this country, how come there are almost NO women and what appears to be NO children, at least the age which we were led to believe they were.

How do you define a child?

What are the parameters?

What do you check?

I'd be more than happy to see women and children brought here to safety instead of living in the condition in Calais, but if they ever existed it seems they are being left there while the 'young men' are taking priority.

Is it any wonder so many of us are cynical.

Pat

 Women and children first. - Dutchie
I must agree expected to see children and women and children.

Like Donald Trump would say what the hell is going on?

 Women and children first. - sooty123
, how come there are almost NO women and what appears to
>> be NO children, at least the age which we were led to believe they were.


Unless you are there its difficult to know really how many people and what sex or age there are. A snapshot tells us little.
>>
>> How do you define a child?
>>
>> What are the parameters?
>>
>> What do you check?

Here's an article covering the outlines of the system. Hope it helps answer some questions.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37687916

I'd be more than happy to see women and children brought here to safety instead of living in the condition in Calais, but if they ever existed it seems they are being left there while the 'young men' are taking priority.

As above, unless a detail list is available a few pictures say nothing really.
 Women and children first. - sherlock47
Why is there a common concept of 'women and children first' at times of stress? Historically perhaps I can understand it since the women were needed to reach the promised land in order to ensure continuation of the community - and allowing them to take potential future sperm donors with them solved that problem for embryo evolving settlements. But in this day and age where women drive lorries, men become chefs, and children understand the technology does it warrant a re-evaluation of old concepts?

Selection on education, intelligence, and the existence of existing support networks surely makes more sense?

If, as a country, we need the resourceful, hardworking and resilient individuals, as potential entrepreneurs, (strange that they wish to leave France?) surrely those that 'beat' the system are the ones that are most likely to make the biggest future contribution to a now floundering little britain?
Last edited by: sherlock47 on Wed 19 Oct 16 at 19:44
 Women and children first. - Manatee
I don't suppose that when the Titanic sank they were think of the future of the human race, just who were the most vulnerable.

But as they are all safe in France, I guess that is irrelevant, so let's have the plumbers and builders.
 Women and children first. - legacylad
From what I've seen of French plumbing there should be plenty of jobs for them in Frogland
 Women and children first. - zippy
Women First!?

They wanted equality! They can join the queue like the rest of us!
 Women and children first. - Pat
tinyurl.com/zf5xeta

It seems the feeling has changed and those who wanted these women and children allowed to come into the country and to a place of safety, are now happy to have them left behind and have a plumber instead.

Despite the fact that those of us who doubted the 'facts' as they were presented to us as sob stories by the media some months ago, and were called racists and bigots, it seems we were probably correct.

The UK should be taking the most vulnerable but it isn't.

It should not be leaving them to goodness knows what when the Jungle camp closes in a few weeks time.

A plumber may well be a better bet for the British economy, but for every place taken, it is one place less for the truly vulnerable children left living in those atrocious conditions.

Pat
 Women and children first. - Duncan
>> tinyurl.com/zf5xeta
>>
>> It seems the feeling has changed and those who wanted these women and children allowed
>> to come into the country and to a place of safety, are now happy to
>> have them left behind and have a plumber instead.

They are already in a 'place of safety'! They are in France.

They have chosen to live in this camp at Calais.
 Women and children first. - Pat
Ah yes but Duncan......

When a few of us pointed that out a few months ago we were branded heartless, racists and bigots, so you can join our club now!

Pat
 Women and children first. - Manatee
Sorry I mentioned the plumbers and builders...I was only being silly. Too much cough medicine.
 Women and children first. - Roger.

>> A plumber may well be a better bet for the British economy, but for
>> every place taken, it is one place less for the truly vulnerable children left living
>> in those atrocious conditions.
>>
>> Pat
>>
Their, or their parent's, choice.
They do not HAVE to be there.
Plenty of other "safe countries which they passed through to get to Calais.
 Women and children first. - Pat
>>Their, or their parent's, choice.
They do not HAVE to be there.
Plenty of other "safe countries which they passed through to get to Calais<<

I realise that Roger, as I said to Duncan.

What irks me is when we tried to point this out some months ago we were branded heartless, yet now we've been proven to be correct, everyone has gone very quiet on the subject.

Pat
 Women and children first. - Bromptonaut
Pat,

What exactly makes you think you've been proven 'right' about anything? I've not gone quiet. CG has questioned your assertions. I was at work today so I didn't respond other than to refute some shallow observation from Movi while scoffing my sandwich at lunchtime.

All we know so far is that one group, or the section of it the media have focused on, was comprised mainly of males in late adolescence.

Maybe, just maybe, the more vulnerable individuals come later and/or without a reception committee of Fleet Street's finest invited as witnesses.

And while the point about 'first safe country' is noted the reality is that Greece and other countries in the front line cannot possibly cope with the numbers involved. In any event there are caveats in the 'safe country' provision for those with family etc links to another country. That's why we're taking these kids in.
 Women and children first. - Pat
>> Maybe, just maybe, the more vulnerable individuals come later<<

Surely they should have priority? hat's what we were led to believe.


>>
>> And while the point about 'first safe country' is noted the reality is that Greece
>> and other countries in the front line cannot possibly cope with the numbers involved.<<

Can we in this country?

>>In any event there are caveats in the 'safe country' provision for those with family etc
>> links to another country. That's why we're taking these kids in.
>>

I am fully aware of that Bromp.

However, it does raise the question of would anyone really leave young children behind, some unaccompanied, as we're told by the charities working within the camp.

The world always loves a good sob story, but we should be able to raise the tough questions as well.

Pat
 Women and children first. - sooty123
> And while the point about 'first safe country' is noted the reality is that
>> Greece
>> >> and other countries in the front line cannot possibly cope with the numbers involved.<<
>>
>> Can we in this country?

Looking at the numbers of refugees that countries such Greece have taken in and the size of the economy of our country compared to theirs, then yes. We are far better placed to cope.
 Women and children first. - MD
The Plumbers and Builders can all Foxtrot Oscar. There are plenty of potential workers here if they'd only get off of their backsides and there's a large element of those in Uni who probably shouldn't be there. We can't all do Art and Design and fly keyboards. We as a nation need to produce something tangible.
 Women and children first. - CGNorwich
The UK agreed with the French government that the UK would take from the camp children i.e. those under 18 years of age with connection in the UK i.e a relative. That is exactly what they are doing.

It is of course possible that someonone who claims to be 17 could be 18 but there is no absolute way to check someone's age. Doesn't seem much of a problem to me . Does our compassion for someone run out when they reach their eighteenth birthday?
 Women and children first. - Pat
>>Does our compassion for someone run out when they reach their eighteenth birthday? <<

Of course not, but my compassion is greater for the 6-16 year olds that are left there, and for what will happen to them when the jungle camp closes before the winter. isn't yours?

Pat
Last edited by: Pat on Thu 20 Oct 16 at 09:08
 Women and children first. - CGNorwich
As far as I understand all children will be cared for either by the French or UK authorities.
 Women and children first. - movilogo
I wonder who exactly from Home Office certified these people as "children".

 Women and children first. - BrianByPass
>> I wonder who exactly from Home Office certified these people as "children".
>>
Perhaps a genuine bleeding heart remoaner civil servant, or one who is secretly a leaver hoping to stir tensions?
 Women and children first. - Bromptonaut
>> Perhaps a genuine bleeding heart remoaner civil servant, or one who is secretly a leaver
>> hoping to stir tensions?

More recent reports might lead a cynic to the second option.

The Home Office has long been culturally and politically opposed to taking any refugees from the jungle, even those with UK connections still less under Lord Dubs's amendment for others who are vulnerable.

Consequently they turned down offers of help from Councils with experience of settling refugees and did no preparatory work until they were forced to. Work that should have taken weeks was compressed into a few days but not all of it, particularly any background checking of host families, is susceptible to being speeded up.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 24 Oct 16 at 14:40
 Women and children first. - Bromptonaut
>> I wonder who exactly from Home Office certified these people as "children".

If you bother to read beyond the knee jerk right wing press and comments from 'rent a gob' Tory MPs you'll find this has been amply explained.

www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/19/home-office-rules-out-unethical-dental-checks-for-calais-refugees

www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/19/child-refugees-date-stamped-medical-age

People who are under 18, even those who have not lived through trauma and extremely poor living conditions, often look older than they are.

Why do you imagine we have Think 25 routines when alcohol and other age related products are sold.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 20 Oct 16 at 11:55
 Women and children first. - BrianByPass
>> cared for either by the French
>>

Could the reason these adult men ("children") gather en-masse at Calais be that they are hoping for better accommodation in UK?

This is what they get in Paris:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ek1ENuEyWHE

One world, world without borders, that is the future of mankind. [reddit /s]
 Women and children first. - BrianByPass
>> The Plumbers and Builders can all Foxtrot Oscar. There are plenty of potential workers here
>> if they'd only get off of their backsides and there's a large element of those
>> in Uni who probably shouldn't be there. We can't all do Art and Design and
>> fly keyboards. We as a nation need to produce something tangible.
>>

The scale of problem facing British construction industry:
www.designingbuildings.co.uk/wiki/Tackling_the_construction_skills_shortage
"New challenge on the construction horizon. It is a challenge that seems to have an obvious solution, if only business and the government can invest in the right training and skills.

Many construction workers are retiring, and the rate of retirement looks set to increase as 22% of the workforce are over 50, and 15% are in their 60s. The industry is also losing out to competing sectors where work is more stable and pay is more competitive. With an ageing workforce and a poor pipeline of young people, the construction industry looks certain to face a skills crisis in the next decade.

So the problem is two-fold; both the professional and the more practical side of construction is suffering. The industry has reached a turning point. To date, about one fifth of all vacancies in the wider construction sector are persistent and hard to fill because employers cannot recruit staff with the right skills, qualifications or experience, and the demand is forecast to rise even further. With young people, from school leavers to graduates, reporting depression borne largely out of fear over the prospect of getting a job and earning a living, why are they not fighting to fill these places?"

This three days ago:
www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/10/16/the-man-on-a-mission-to-fix-the-skills-shortage-that-could-decim/
(p.s. - similar stories can be found in non-right-wing media)
 Women and children first. - Mike Hannon
'Women and children first' is actually the 'Birkenhead drill', dating from the ordered evacuation during the sinking of the British troopship Birkenhead. Discipline led to the saving of many lives. You can Google it.
In the words of Rudyard Kipling, 'to stand and be still for the Birkenhead drill is a damned tough bullet to chew'.
 Women and children first. - zippy
>>'Women and children first' is actually the 'Birkenhead drill'

I wonder if that had something to do with most of the women and children on board being the families of the soldiers?

Like most normal people, I would give up my place for my children.
 Women and children first. - devonite
Wouldn't surprise me if sometime in the future the "Bedroom-Tax" is modified into something like "pay the tax or take in an Immigrant" - they could even sweeten the deal by including an "Immigrant incentive" of X£ a week.
 Women and children first. - MD
No chance.
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